View Full Version : gripping a carbine
gogetaglock
02-19-13, 14:37
i am new to the rifle world ( less than 3 months ) and was wondering for combat style use is gripping it around the magwell good or bad thanks
i am new to the rifle world ( less than 3 months ) and was wondering for combat style use is gripping it around the magwell good or bad thanks
There are plenty of proper ways. If you're looking for the latest "cool" looking style just check out half the clowns on YouTube. If you're looking for the proper way to employ your weapon effectively, I would look to the training section, then get some ammo and find a good carbine course close to you. Remember to keep an open mind.
Traveshamockery
02-19-13, 14:45
i am new to the rifle world ( less than 3 months ) and was wondering for combat style use is gripping it around the magwell good or bad thanks
This style is out of vogue with most reputable trainers I'm aware of. As suggested, take a class with a good trainer - it's well worth the money.
It's A method. As long as you keep your hand from causing ejection malfs.
Most people are running a more forward hold on the handguards. Position and situation dictate it for me.
I don't get locked in to any single technique.
These are the approved stances:
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w273/bigwagon/image0096oa_zps67ce00e7.jpg
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w273/bigwagon/image0103bt_zpsc066916d.jpg
This style is out of vogue with most reputable trainers I'm aware of.
This nails it. The trainers are constantly changing what is en vogue to keep the classes full.
I think people should try stuff and God forbid... THINK FOR THEMSELVES. :eek:
An analogy that LAV uses is that you wouldn't grip a broom with your hands close together, because you wouldn't have any leverage. The same holds true for a rifle/carbine. To gain leverage and more control, I would recommend placing your support hand as far forward as is comfortably possible.
An analogy that LAV uses is that you wouldn't grip a broom with your hands close together, because you wouldn't have any leverage. The same holds true for a rifle/carbine. To gain leverage and more control, I would recommend placing your support hand as far forward as is comfortably possible.
And you wouldn't hold a fishing pole out at the front end because your arms would fatigue and shake in short order.
The broom analogy is equally retarded.
gogetaglock
02-19-13, 14:51
dude those pics are awesome. I am saving for a carbine course already I hope to secure a course from Jason falla soon thanks for everything guys
Around the magwell is not taught by reputable instructors. As has been said, you really, really need to train with a quality instructor. Some excellent ones: TigerSwan, Kyle DeFoor, Kyle Lamb, Northern Red, Jason Falla, Larry Vickers, Jeff Gonzalez, Paul Howe, Dave Harrington, Haley Strategic, and EAG come to mind. All of these except EAG have Special Operations experience.
And you wouldn't hold a fishing pole out at the front end because your arms would fatigue and shake in short order.
The broom analogy is equally retarded.
The broom analogy doesn't suggest holding the broom by one end and by the bristles as your fishing pole analogy does. In my experience holding a rifle/carbine as far forward as is comfortable does not induce extra strain or fatigue. Key word being comfortable. I didn't say grip it all the way at the end.
Look in this thread.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=96389
I'll reiterate what I stated in this thread:
http://m4carbine.net/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1549102
I disagree with the "whatever works" train of thought.
If it is for plinking on the range, sure, knock yourself out. If it is for duty use, one should strive to employ techniques that are proven to be beneficial/superior. If you were to adjust your stance/grip, it should be due to the following factors:
-Mandated gear requiring a different grip; lasers, grenade launchers, bipods, flashlights, short rails etc
-Physical limitations; injuries, build etc limiting a shooter
-Awkward shooting positions precluding the use of the ideal technique
I have seen way to many people advocate a tight, mag-well'esque grip on the weapon, because it is comfortable to carry it that way, and they manage to get hits on the range when static against full silhouette targets.
When we start firing more rapidly, do target transitions, movement etc poor technique and poor recoil control becomes more apparent in the ones who follow the "whatever works" methodology.
And you can call a technique "vogue", but the physics involved do not lie. A tight grip with a short LOP is not more stable than grabbing the gun far forward with an extended LOP. Not saying it doesn't have utility in some situations, but it is not an optimal shooting platformwhen it comes to recoil control.
Littlelebowski
02-19-13, 18:04
And you wouldn't hold a fishing pole out at the front end because your arms would fatigue and shake in short order.
The broom analogy is equally retarded.
I doubt that you'll take this personally but I'll still say that I hope you don't.
The heaviest and most durable (read thick) part of a fishing pole (sans fish) is the grip near the reel. Would you grip a thinner part when hauling in a fish or stick with the most durable part? In other words, absolute analogy fail as it relates to shooting rifles. Take a class for a couple of days and see what works best for you, Mark. Not just shooting with your buddy but actually on the clock, being critiqued.
Or in other words, if I can shoot for the entirety of a 2 day Failure2Stop class using said grip with my permanently damaged, gunshot elbow.......grow stronger :D
http://rationalgun.blogspot.com/2012/03/failure2stop-2-day-two-day-practical.html
http://i1097.photobucket.com/albums/g342/F2SConsulting/F2S%20Consulting%20LLC%20Practical%20Carbine%20Feb25-26%202012/DSC_0678.jpg
NeoNeanderthal
02-19-13, 18:34
As others have stated, go get some GOOD training. Also all of the well respected instructors do NOT use a magwell grip, so thats a clue. Some of the common themes among instructors is extended (atleast somewhat) support arm, strong elbow down and c-clamping the rail or atleast not wrapping the thumb around a vert grip with your support hand.
Dont know any guys "going full retard" or magwell gripping now-a-days. Other old school techniques that you dont see many reputable instructors use is strong elbow up, weaver with pistol, and empty mag retention. People say that it's because it's not in vogue but there is a lot of well thought out rational out there for not using these techniques.
The only negative I have ever heard to the newer extended grips is comfort..... To me that is not really a disadvantage especially since you can dial it back slightly to facilitate being comfortable during longer strings of shooting. There are many cons to a magwell grip.
Travis Haley's video on panteao does a great job explaining the rationale behind this newer stance. Regardless of if you decide to use it or not it'd be good to understand the pros of it. Vickers does not use quite such a squared of stance, or grip quite as far out but he shoots pretty extended.
NeoNeanderthal
02-19-13, 18:35
I doubt that you'll take this personally but I'll still say that I hope you don't.
The heaviest and most durable (read thick) part of a fishing pole (sans fish) is the grip near the reel. Would you grip a thinner part when hauling in a fish or stick with the most durable part? In other words, absolute analogy fail as it relates to shooting rifles. Take a class for a couple of days and see what works best for you, Mark. Not just shooting with your buddy but actually on the clock, being critiqued.
Or in other words, if I can shoot for the entirety of a 2 day Failure2Stop class using said grip with my permanently damaged, gunshot elbow.......grow stronger :D
http://rationalgun.blogspot.com/2012/03/failure2stop-2-day-two-day-practical.html
http://i1097.photobucket.com/albums/g342/F2SConsulting/F2S%20Consulting%20LLC%20Practical%20Carbine%20Feb25-26%202012/DSC_0678.jpg
Thats a narley elbow man. I'd love to hear the story behind it. It is on here somewhere or on your blog?
Prairie Patriot
02-19-13, 19:22
When standing, I personally like the thumb over bore with a hand stop of some sort. My reasons are that I can guide the muzzle quicker with less over travel and get the butt tucked in more firmly into my shoulder. However, I am certainly not opposed to mag well grip in certain situations where it may be necessary due to fatigue or firing position.
Start building up your "tool set" so that you will have the right ones for the right situations and jobs. :)
These are the approved stances:
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w273/bigwagon/image0096oa_zps67ce00e7.jpg
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w273/bigwagon/image0103bt_zpsc066916d.jpg
LOL, I cannot stop laughing at this. :D
I prefer the thumb over bore grip, it feels the most comfortable to me. But I try different things.
Easy Rhino
02-19-13, 20:33
Pics are hilarious...equally as funny is the guy is in sandals. it just dawned on me thats why all these innocent people are getting shot instead of the intended targets, like gang members. (new Orleans and Chicago to name the recent ones) Its an off the wall tactic for gun control, but what if they offered a shooting course to gang members in Chicago...maybe they would actually hit their intended targets, not have to empty the clip...innocent girls spared, criminals dead, and the problem would slowly solve itself?
Pics are hilarious...equally as funny is the guy is in sandals. it just dawned on me thats why all these innocent people are getting shot instead of the intended targets, like gang members. (new Orleans and Chicago to name the recent ones) Its an off the wall tactic for gun control, but what if they offered a shooting course to gang members in Chicago...maybe they would actually hit their intended targets, not have to empty the clip...innocent girls spared, criminals dead, and the problem would slowly solve itself?
Good in theory, but will never fly...:stop:
Here's a good article by David Borresen, an instructor at Tigerswan, on what they teach
http://davidthedavborresen.blogspot.com/2012/02/modern-fighting-carbine-stance.html
i am new to the rifle world ( less than 3 months ) and was wondering for combat style use is gripping it around the magwell good or bad thanksIt can be good or bad, it just depends as the situation that you are currently faced with that will be a key contributing factor as to the efficacy of the technique used.
There is a time and place for different techniques, however we should all have a default technique that we practice and use under more optimal situations. This is just like any sport, as in throwing a baseball, football etc, etc. Of course we are not always going to have an optimal situation so being able to adapt quickly and respond with high levels of proficiency with an alternate or maybe even an improvised technique is the true sign of a great shooter. But any great shooter or sports person, honed those skills off of a solid base foundation to build from. All pro's still practice that default standard all the time during basic warm ups. All sports.
So having a default technique should ideally allow the shooter to accomplish as many positive goals as possible for their intended purposes all from the same shooting platform, which includes your grip and stance. Also many people's own shooting experiences are often limited by the amount of exposure and training that they may or may not have had in a broader range of situations. In other words, there are many shooters that may genuinely "not know, what they don't know". Because of this or perhaps a lack of an open mind they are not able to grow or expand their knowledge base and / or skill levels.
Just to quickly comment on the ignorant comments in regards to a more outstretched grip which people think is some new flavor of the month, I will add that it is funny because some 30 years ago when I was shooting as a teen in competitive shotgun shooting sports we liked to get our support hand as far out as the fore grip allowed. We could not wrap our thumb overbore for obvious reasons on the shotgun, but the longer rails these days on this platform of rifle is allowing for many changes in reverting back to an outstretched grip which is NOT something new. Longer rails and better equipment is allowing for people to do what was common knowledge a long time ago. Ironically my current AR/M4 shooting platform looks very similar to my shotgun shooting platform from 30 years ago, except that now I tuck my primary elbow a bit and I do a thumb overbore. I bet if I could have gone thumb overbore 30 years ago on my shotgun I would have.
Here's a good article by David Borresen, an instructor at Tigerswan, on what they teach
http://davidthedavborresen.blogspot.com/2012/02/modern-fighting-carbine-stance.html
"Must" extend the stock all the way? Don't know if I agree with that.
The broom analogy doesn't suggest holding the broom by one end and by the bristles as your fishing pole analogy does. In my experience holding a rifle/carbine as far forward as is comfortable does not induce extra strain or fatigue. Key word being comfortable. I didn't say grip it all the way at the end.
I never said you said anything... not trying to put words in your mouth... Just saying that comparing sweeping the floor to shooting a carbine is ****ing silly. ;)
My feelings on these intructors of late is that they're too tied into the industry and are pitching certain shit to keep classes full.
I just get irritated when shooters can't think for themselves and hang on every word that comes out of these intructors' mouths.
Littlelebowski
02-20-13, 06:54
I just get irritated when shooters can't think for themselves and hang on every word that comes out of these intructors' mouths.
Yup, that's me.
Littlelebowski
02-20-13, 06:57
Thats a narley elbow man. I'd love to hear the story behind it. It is on here somewhere or on your blog?
http://pistol-training.com/articles/how-i-got-shot
Jeff Franz
02-20-13, 07:44
I never said you said anything... not trying to put words in your mouth... Just saying that comparing sweeping the floor to shooting a carbine is ****ing silly. ;)
Regardless of what you think of the particular analogy used, it is simple physics. Moving the fulcrum point (your support hand) changes the moment arm, and moving your hand back also increases the mass on that moment arm. the longer the moment arm and the greater the mass, the more force it takes to move it. furthermore, the greater the mass, the more inertia effects the mass, which means it takes more force to start or stop it's movement, which affects precision and accuracy, especially when transitioning between targets. I have had it proven to me with about 50 rounds, a shot timer, and a few drills by some of those instructors you so despise. It is in fact harder and more fatiguing to shoot with a magwell grip and maintain accuracy.
My feelings on these intructors of late is that they're too tied into the industry and are pitching certain shit to keep classes full.
This is the most ignorant statement I have read in this thread. Guys like Vickers, Mac, Hackathorn, Defoor, etc. have been teaching by and large the same TTP's for years. They have based what they teach on what worked for them on actual two way ranges. With regards to the specific practice of grabbing as much gun as possible, it has been around a long time. It hasn't changed as a "flavor of the month" technique.
Smart shooters who are serious about improving train with multiple people and take bits and pieces from each instructor they train with that works for them. I can say personally that my own shooting skills and knowledge have increased dramatically over the last 20 years by exposing myself to many sources of instruction. I can make that statement with empirical data from the shot timer and measurable metrics with regards to accuracy. While there a certainly differences between instructors on certain things, when they all share the same view on something like grip, that's a clue. And when it is confirmed with a measurable increase in performance, it becomes a fact.
"Must" extend the stock all the way? Don't know if I agree with that.
I believe he means as far as possible given the situation. Length would vary depending upon thickness of layers of clothing, armor, etc. That is the answer I was given at TS. Dave is a straight up bad MF and knows his shit inside and out; he just didn't clearly explain his thought.
If you want to shoot accurately and quickly, there's more to it than gripping a carbine - but that is part of the equation. If you want to maximize your ability to grip a weapon effectively then it would make sense to have a balance between torque and control of the gun, and comfort. If you want to learn from a pro, then sign up for a training class or if you want to learn from the top AR shooters around, watch some of the winners in 3 gun shoot their rifles. You will notice that they change their stance based on the shots they take.
For close range rapid fire, generally they are going to have as much torque on the gun as possible with a support hand forward, thumb over bore grip and they'll rip rounds into the target. For free standing shots that are farther away they'll relax their stance a bit, cradle the gun more, and have a much less aggressive stance. You need to know what kind of shot youre going to take before you really decide what stance and grip youre going to have on your gun - which is why I linked the AR's in Action thread. There are many different methods to gripping an AR.
Try all the ways, see how they work for you, and then pick a few to focus on. For up close rapid fire shooting, the support arm forward with a thumb over the bore is a hard stance/grip to beat with body mechanics - but it just might not work for you.
This thread is a bit silly. Who gives a "F" how the next guy is holding his rifle. As if there is one perfect way for everyone. What works for me may not work for you and the reverse is true as well.
This nails it. The trainers are constantly changing what is en vogue to keep the classes full.
I think people should try stuff and God forbid... THINK FOR THEMSELVES. :eek:
The better way to look at it is that they are "growing." If all the top firearms instructors stayed with the "norm" we would all be graduates of Gunsight. ;)
I don't build AR's the same way I did 10yrs ago. Did I change as I found better ways to do things? Yes.
If you don't know ANYTHING (meaning no training), you will simply do what you see on TV and in Movies (or mimic the moron next to you at the gun range). Being that we are creatures of "if it feels good do it," we will hold the gun the way that "feels" best to us. This commonly not the best way to do things.
While holding the magwell isn't the end of the world, it does not help you drive the gun from target to target in any way. Its only application (IMHO) is having to hold the gun on a fixed location for long periods of time.
C4
This thread is a bit silly. Who gives a "F" how the next guy is holding his rifle. As if there is one perfect way for everyone. What works for me may not work for you and the reverse is true as well.
There's not. That's the point.
For certain shots and certain people, some techniques are going to be better than others - but there is no "one way" to do it.
"Must" extend the stock all the way? Don't know if I agree with that.
Extending the stock all the way helps greatly with:
1. Allowing the shooter go to full extension on their arms.
2. Makes clearing malfunctions easier (as you don't get what I refer to as T-Rex arms).
Of course if you have short arms are are wearing body armor, you will need to adjust the length.
C4
This thread is a bit silly. Who gives a "F" how the next guy is holding his rifle. As if there is one perfect way for everyone. What works for me may not work for you and the reverse is true as well.
Certain techniques DO increase speed and control over other ways. This is why you don't see any professional competition shooters using the magwell hold (for instance).
With that said, we are all different in our size and our guns. So some things will always be different, but the goals are always the same (put rounds on target as fast and as accurately as possible).
C4
Failure2Stop
02-20-13, 12:35
My advice:
Do whatever you want.
Go to a state-level or above 3-gun match.
Pay attention to how all the guys beating you are shooting.
Do whatever you want with that information.
@markm:
Just curious, what background and experiences do you have that make you critique instructors in the "industry", claiming that they hype their technique or certain techniques in order to fill classes?
As has been stated, some of these guys' experience level goes way beyond competition or plinking on the range, and I think it is strange that you would assume that the technique they are teaching does not have merit, and is a result of some form of hype.
Sure, people can hold their rifle/carbine in whatever way they like, but as I alluded to previously and explained very well by Jeff Franz, physics come into play in all this. As I said earlier, I understand changing your grip, but it should be a result of either mandatory gear og physical limitations (injury, short arms etc). I don't like the "do whatever you want" mindset.
I am sure you have probably done it, but you can shoot a VTAC Half & Half, once using a magwell grip and the stock fully collapsed and once with a forward grip and extended stock. I think that your accuracy will be better with the latter method.
Certain techniques DO increase speed and control over other ways. This is why you don't see any professional competition shooters using the magwell hold (for instance).
With that said, we are all different in our size and our guns. So things will always been to be different, but the goals are always the same (put rounds on target as fast and as accurately as possible).
C4
Agreed. Frame size, strength, arm length, rifle configuration all factor in to what will work for an individual. Preference and position are important too.
While I agree that holding your gun as close to the muzzle as possible will help with speed-shooting, I believe a closer in grip
is superior for slower, more deliberate shooting.
To prove my point - hold your left arm out and try to keep your hand and arm as steady as possible: most people will notice a slight
tremor start to occur after only a short period of time. Now tuck your elbow in and try to keep your hand and arm as steady as possible - I, for one, can keep my hand as steady as a rock with my elbow tucked in for what would seem to be an indefinite amount of time.
So to me, it all boils down to what kind of shooting you're doing. If you're in a run-and-gun kind of timed competition, then the arm extended, thumb over the rail technique would be superior because it would allow you to get more shots on target in a shorter amount of time due to increased control over muzzle-flip. But if you're target shooting, or just shooting for groups, I believe that a more natural and successful position would be the classic rifle grip.
The other benefit of a close in grip, as Grant pointed out, is out of need due to being engaged in an extended shooting scenario. No one wants to hold their rifle out that far for 3-4 hours+. Look at pictures of our troops holding their weapons - I don't recall seeing any of them holding them that far out... and for all of those calling their training outdated, you have to realize that what is taught is culled from years of experience, compiled battle data and research. Sure, longer length free-float rails weren't around 20-30 years ago, but M-16s were/are long enough to grab near the front sight, but no one did or does that now - do they? For competition and short gunfights, I say go for it, but I believe there's a reason why the military is still issuing M4s with 7 inch handguards and not 12" cutaway rails.
There... I think that answers it. Flame away if you feel the need. Just my opinions.
Littlelebowski
02-20-13, 13:27
Sure, longer length free-float rails weren't around 20-30 years ago, but M-16s were/are long enough to grab near the front sight, but no one did or does that now - do they?
Do you shoot Isosceles or Weaver? What did they shoot in the Vietnam era?
Do you shoot Isosceles or Weaver? What did they shoot in the Vietnam era?
I shoot my own stance... Kind of a modified modified Weaver with my body almost lateral to my target and a wider-than-usual stance, hard leaning, ~63% of my weight on my leading foot, head low. I don't wear body armor, so I like to present as small of a target as possible to my enemy while also maintaining maximum control of my weapon. Similar hard leaning techniques have been used with great success by women of a smaller stature to help better control their handgun, so I don't see why it wouldn't benefit a man as well in controlling follow-up shots.
Littlelebowski
02-20-13, 13:40
I shoot my own stance... Kind of a modified modified Weaver with my body almost lateral to my target and a wider-than-usual stance, hard leaning, ~63% of my weight on my leading foot, head low.
Do you understand what I was getting at?
Do you understand what I was getting at?
Of course I do. I was being facetious.
Voodoo_Man
02-20-13, 14:06
Thats a narley elbow man. I'd love to hear the story behind it. It is on here somewhere or on your blog?
That is what happens when you do not employ proper gun safety - not Littlelebowski, but someone else.
Failure2Stop
02-20-13, 14:37
Here's an interesting look into the history of the topic:
http://www.patriotresistance.com/TT23-71-1-PrinciplesOfQuickKill-May1967.pdf
It's an old Army manual that dates back to 1967, so there are a lot of things that are notably dated, however, note the stance that is being taught. Very similar to a skeet shooting stance.
Interestingly, skeet shooting has been around for a while, and deals with recoil control and smooth tracking of small targets, things that directly apply to contemporary gunfighting. A round of skeet lasts quite a while as well.
As far as the "holding the gun up" thing goes: there isn't much need to keep a gun up in the ready for an extended period of time while standing up unless shooting bullseye. I can certainly detail why I hold that opinion, but the logic pretty much stands on its own.
Here is a picture from our G3 shooting technique manual, dated 1973:
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/6184/leftarmplacement.png
So the method of shooting guns with the support arm extended is far from new.
Failure2Stop
02-20-13, 15:08
Here is a picture from our G3 shooting technique manual, dated 1973:
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/6184/leftarmplacement.png
So the method of shooting guns with the support arm extended is far from new.
Pay no mind, it's just a passing fad.
Here's another pic that Kyle Defoor posted on his blog:
http://24.media.tumblr.com/c39dd3169a64941b1bf65458d4c206bb/tumblr_mhe9cdyhu51ruk0n4o1_1280.jpg
Hand Forward
Not invented by anyone anytime recently
Rhodesian soldiers in the 70’s
Source: http://kyledefoor.tumblr.com/post/41787802056/hand-forward-not-invented-by-anyone-anytime
Those pictures still depict traditional rifle holds, just with the support hand out further. I thought this thread was more about the thumb over type grip that's currently being championed.
EDIT: Actually, I forgot.. it was originally about holding an AR by the magwell... which is retarded.
Littlelebowski
02-20-13, 16:05
Those Rhodesians! Always trying to be hip with what's in vogue with current instructors, amirite mark? :D
I know gun forums can be ****ing annoying but after a while you have to stop sneering and listen with an open mind or post some Half and Half drill times using a mag well hold that are smoking.
theblackknight
02-20-13, 17:29
What someone prefers to do, and what a timer shows them is better could be different.
When I got my 1st M&P, I liked the medium grip, but the target told me the large grip was better. Same thing.
sent from mah gun,using my sights
I don't think I could ever get used to the straight-arm-elbow-locked-thumb-over hold. I'm open to just about everything else.
I don't think I could ever get used to the straight-arm-elbow-locked-thumb-over hold. I'm open to just about everything else.
You could try not locking out the arm and keeping a bend in it, letting the elbow naturally hang. The bend is a stronger position as you are engaging the bicep. As to how much bend I generally have the same extension as my pistol extension (hand shake extension distance).
You could try not locking out the arm and keeping a bend in it, letting the elbow naturally hang. The bend is a stronger position as you are engaging the bicep. As to how much bend I generally have the same extension as my pistol extension (hand shake extension distance).
I agree, I don't lock my elbow.
I've seen more than a few pics on here and other places of folks with the ol' elbow-lock.
I've seen more than a few pics on here and other places of folks with the ol' elbow-lock.
True. There are numerous pictures of the bent elbow technique in the 'AR's in Action' thread.
What someone prefers to do, and what a timer shows them is better could be different.
When I got my 1st M&P, I liked the medium grip, but the target told me the large grip was better. Same thing.
sent from mah gun,using my sights
Yep. Exact same results here. Having never owned a handgun with switchable back straps this came as a bit of a surprise while experimenting at the range one day.
-Jax
True. There are numerous pictures of the bent elbow technique in the 'AR's in Action' thread.
Seriously....
I really hope nobody presupposes that putting one's hand forward somehow requires that the elbow get locked... There's folks that use a push/pull technique ("stretching the gun") on the front end, which'd be difficult to effect with the elbow locked.
The ancient Greeks were right; there's nothing new under the sun, including having the front hand forward on the forend of a rifle/carbine.
Five_Point_Five_Six
03-09-13, 14:00
I use the forward grip and pull the rifle back into my shoulder. I don't like the way a rifle operates when gripped at the magwell. It makes the front sight move around more, and follow up shots are not as quick. Transitioning to other targets doesn't seem like as fluid of a motion.
I'm not a SME so my opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it.
Failure2Stop
03-09-13, 14:07
Not to be a dick, but how fast you can pull the trigger has nothing to do with how you hold the gun.
However, how you hold the gun can effect the speed at which you can maintain a specific accuracy standard.
Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.
I'm not "formally" trained but I engage in a lot of multiple moving target scenarios frequently. Aka hog hunting with nods.
I use the. Hand forward, thumb over bore grip when shooting off hand in a standing position. It helps me follow, lead the target, and control recoil more easily when after multiple targets.
I use the magwell grip if I'm in a kneeling position and I want to rest my elbow just inside of my knee bones to steady the rifle.
If I'm prone I tend to just rest the forearm in the open palm of my support hand. I do this on longer shots to minimize my body influence on the rifle.
Again, I'm not trained anymore than a group "c" Air Force shooter, but I do use my carbines a lot in multi target situation. Every situation requires different grips/positions, but my standard is a thumb over bore hand forward type grip. I also point my index finger along the side of the barrel to make it feel like I am pointing at my target.
Just my .02 from frequent field use.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I847 using Tapatalk 2
Five_Point_Five_Six
03-09-13, 16:16
Not to be a dick, but how fast you can pull the trigger has nothing to do with how you hold the gun.
However, how you hold the gun can effect the speed at which you can maintain a specific accuracy standard.
Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.
That's what I was getting at.
Failure2Stop
03-09-13, 16:21
That's what I was getting at.
I figured so, and I wasn't trying to be a "definition Nazi", it's just that a lot of folks focus on split times and not the associated level of precision.
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Five_Point_Five_Six
03-09-13, 16:48
I figured so, and I wasn't trying to be a "definition Nazi", it's just that a lot of folks focus on split times and not the associated level of precision.
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I follow you. The level of precision being played by ear is the only thing I have to base it on since I don't own a shot timer, but I can tell when something is causing me to go slower in order to get accurate hits on target or causing me to go slower altogether, and the gripping at the mag well is not something I can do and get the accuracy and speed that I like.
Most here could probably out shoot me on my best day on their worst.
MountainRaven
03-11-13, 15:07
Those pictures still depict traditional rifle holds, just with the support hand out further. I thought this thread was more about the thumb over type grip that's currently being championed.
Try wrapping your thumb over the top of an FAL or G3.
;)
My shooting stance has evolved a lot. From the magwell to this about '07
Note the position of the hand and the stock being all the way out. Also see how my support hand is not all the way on the grip.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v453/currahee/recent%20range%20pics/0702RM2-HS-3_zps6d818594.jpg
I put a lot of though in to it, put a VFG back on (I tried it once years ago) and tried the thumb over grip, I ended up thumb forward so I basically point at the target with my thumb. I ended up shortening the stock and putting the VFG a few notches back to give me optimal control without over reaching... if you have to force yourself into a position it's not going to be your best.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v453/currahee/recent%20range%20pics/DSC06580.jpg
Basically I tried a few things and came to what is working for me. I would suggest you do the same. Make sure while you're trying things you do some rapid fire and target transitions. That is where having the grip further forward shines. If your going to stand and plink at one target, your grip doesn't make much difference.
When I'm not supported in any way I think of my upper body like the turret of a tank, and my position stays the same through 180 degrees of turn, leaning sideways whatever.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v453/currahee/recent%20range%20pics/DSCN8362.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v453/currahee/recent%20range%20pics/DSCN8363.jpg
If I get support- I use the support, more like the way you would hold a pool cue
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v453/currahee/recent%20range%20pics/DSCN8355.jpg
If I'm going to go unsupported kneeling (or prone)I come back to a more "traditional support hand position. This allows me to use more stable parts of my body for support. (note this is a step back in the position of my FVG and light and how my mag is pressed against my support forearm)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v453/currahee/recent%20range%20pics/110713-3.jpg
I made a video about it too (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1Mtk7rj-XQ)
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