View Full Version : what current ammo is most similar to Black Talon's?
I have a few boxes of .45 and 9mm Black Talon's laying around. I really like the expansion on them and would like to know what current production run ammo has the most similar expansion pattern.
Winchester PDX-1 are the closest thing that I have found
Black Talons are actually older technology. If you want some the most current tech, look at the Federal HST and Speer GD.
C4
Black Talons are actually older technology. If you want some the most current tech, look at the Federal HST and Speer GD.
C4
This is sound advice. After witnessing some gelatin testing and reading reports on shootings at work, I carry the Federal HST or Speer GD in my .38 Spl J-Frame, Glock 19 and Kimber .45ACP.
snowdog650
02-21-13, 16:03
Black Talons are actually older technology. If you want some the most current tech, look at the Federal HST and Speer GD.
C4
^^ This x 1000. I carry Fed HST in my 9mm and 40 S&W.
theblackknight
02-21-13, 16:16
Wouldnt it be Ranger T(alon)?
sent from mah gun,using my sights
Winchester ranger t is the closest to the old black talons.
The ranger t is also a very good performer. Last time i looked at DOCGKR's list of recommended rounds for service calibers. The ranger t is listed in at least one weight for every caliber, and some have multiple ranger t loads.
Edit: the blackknight was a little faster.
Since the Black Talon's are old technology would they still be good enough for HD or should they be replaced with newer ammo as suggested? Basically if I had to use them would they still be effective?
Since the Black Talon's are old technology would they still be good enough for HD or should they be replaced with newer ammo as suggested? Basically if I had to use them would they still be effective?
Sure, but I follow the rule of rotating my carry ammo out every 12 months.
If I was in your position, I would put that stuff on GB (make rude money) and buy some more modern ammo. ;)
C4
dmaxfireman
02-21-13, 16:53
Ranger T-Series expands with 'talons' just like the black talon ammo. It is not bonded though.
Ranger T-Series expands with 'talons' just like the black talon ammo. It is not bonded though.
Winchester's Ranger line does have bonded loadings that I believe are similar in how they expand to the Ranger Ts. May be wrong as to that, though someone with a better understanding of their line would be welcome to advise. But as it has been basically said, all that have been listed will suffice, I like being able to test the rounds in my platforms and see what preforms the best, and I rotate mine regularly as well, and encourage others to do the same. I do have one box of Black Talons though, simply to have them though, they are nothing more then a novelty to me.
dmaxfireman
02-21-13, 17:08
Winchester's Ranger line does have bonded loadings that I believe are similar in how they expand to the Ranger Ts. May be wrong as to that, though someone with a better understanding of their line would be welcome to advise. But as it has been basically said, all that have been listed will suffice, I like being able to test the rounds in my platforms and see what preforms the best, and I rotate mine regularly as well, and encourage others to do the same. I do have one box of Black Talons though, simply to have them though, they are nothing more then a novelty to me.
The bonded rounds do not have the 'talons' when expanded. I have tested both.
Does the "talon" portion of the bullet actually have much of an affect on the amount of damage caused to flesh and organs?
Does the "talon" portion of the bullet actually have much of an affect on the amount of damage caused to flesh and organs?
No it doesn't.
Single data point of experience: I shot a deer with a .45 Black Talon many years ago and recovered the bullet, it could have been reloaded and used again! Distance to target was about 25 yards, it was a one shot stop, but also a rude awakening. Switched to Federal hydro Shocks right after that.
1_click_off
02-21-13, 21:07
Not very scientific, but I fired 18rds of 180gr .40cal into wet sand. About half opened up and of the 9 that opened up, 4 had the jacket come completely off. I had the jackets riding in my truck for a couple years until my bro-n-law helped me at a car wash by vacuuming the cup holders out.
I would not use them for SD.
The bonded rounds do not have the 'talons' when expanded. I have tested both.
Interesting. In the pictures I looked at, although only at a glance, they appeared to vaguely resemble the Ranger Ts. Whatever, I've got a handful of different loadings running in different platforms at the moment, most based on what is the most accurate from that particular platform.
For the current recommendations in duty/self-defense ammo, check out this thread:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887
Hornady, Winchester, ATK (Fed, Speer), others publish terminal ballistics test results for their most popular loads on their websites. Useful, if you want to compare them. Some include their older loads.
Ammo has come a long way since the Black Talon, Hydra-Shok, Silvertip, etc, and there's no real need to look back at them.
Does the "talon" portion of the bullet actually have much of an affect on the amount of damage caused to flesh and organs?
I asked a thoracic surgeon from the St. Louis area this question years ago when the Talon ammunition had only been on the market a couple of years. He said that the sharp points only caused more damage the last one or two inches of travel into the people from whom he removed the projectiles.
I asked the Doctor about the claim of greater risk to surgical staff removing the projectiles. He said that the claim that the projectile posed a greater risk to a surgeon was nonsense. He told me that if you follow proper surgical procedure it was a non-issue.
The Doctor was an avid shooter and we had this conversation at a gun shop. His hospital handles a fair share of gunshot wounds and I respect his opinion.
Ranger Ts as stated. They bloom just like the black talons.. and neither has ever shed it's jacket for me... in my bootleg unofficial testing.
I was an observer at a Winchester sales rep demo. The rep did extensive gelatin testing with Winchester Ranger T and their then new bonded round for law enforcement. He used .40 s&w, .357sig, and 9mm. Very respectable performance.
The reps big mistake was including Speer Golddot in the test. The Gold Dot out performed the Winchester loads (dramatically in some cases) and was cheaper.
I order about 50-60 thousand rounds a year and it was a concern. I felt a lot better knowing I was getting my officers an equal if not better round for a better price.
Sorry I got off point. I was trying to say the newer rounds are superior to the old tech.
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Yeah... it's hard to beat GoldDots... I'd be fine carrying either though.
I have both the 230 45 Winchester Ranger T-series and +P I carry now.they did come out with a bonded Ranger series if you can find any I lucked out and got about 500 rounds before all the panic buying started
I was an observer at a Winchester sales rep demo. The rep did extensive gelatin testing with Winchester Ranger T and their then new bonded round for law enforcement. He used .40 s&w, .357sig, and 9mm. Very respectable performance.
The reps big mistake was including Speer Golddot in the test. The Gold Dot out performed the Winchester loads (dramatically in some cases) and was cheaper.
I've attended a few gel shoots in which manufacturers shot pre-selected or attendee-supplied loads against their own product. There's an honesty to that, but it's a gamble.
Hornady Critical Duty line is worth a mention as well.
example:
http://www.venturamunitions.com/winchester-ranger-le-380-acp-95gr-t-series-50-rounds-in-stock/
Yeah... it's hard to beat GoldDots... I'd be fine carrying either though.
At this point we're ordering whatever we can get. Trying to set up a three year supply for training.
We went through this during the last drought, and have been staying at least a year ahead since then.
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BullitBill
03-04-13, 22:23
I was fortunate to take Massad Ayoob's MAG 20 range course and I asked him what load he carried. When he said the Ranger T I asked how it comaired to the BT, then he said it was actually a fifth generation BT.
replacement
03-07-13, 20:44
Sure, but I follow the rule of rotating my carry ammo out every 12 months.
If I was in your position, I would put that stuff on GB (make rude money) and buy some more modern ammo. ;)
C4
you got me thinking, I have 5 boxes of 45 230 grain Talons, maybe i should sell them and buy new stuff. I guess it was stupid to buy the last 100 rounds of hydro shocks. I keep reading and learning -
you got me thinking, I have 5 boxes of 45 230 grain Talons, maybe i should sell them and buy new stuff. I guess it was stupid to buy the last 100 rounds of hydro shocks. I keep reading and learning -
From what i have seen and read the hydro shocks are not worth carrying. You should try to sell the hydro shocks along with the black talons. Get enough money to buy some ranger t, hst, gold dots, anything else on the good doc's list.
At this point we're ordering whatever we can get. Trying to set up a three year supply for training.
We went through this during the last drought, and have been staying at least a year ahead since then.
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Buying ammo for work has me stressed out! We have such a low ammo budget we shoot through almost everything yearly.
We carry Ranger SXT. Is that what you guys mean by T? As said. It's pretty much the same round. The first ones we bought actually still had brass casings and black bullets. Now they have silver colored casings and no longer have the evil black color round, more of PDF a bronze color.
Buying ammo for work has me stressed out! We have such a low ammo budget we shoot through almost everything yearly.
We carry Ranger SXT. Is that what you guys mean by T? As said. It's pretty much the same round. The first ones we bought actually still had brass casings and black bullets. Now they have silver colored casings and no longer have the evil black color round, more of PDF a bronze color.
I'm not sure if its the same. Its just labled Ranger T series. We pretty much stick to Speer & Federal. We only get Winchester when we can't get anything else.
I don't know how big your dept. Is but I convinced the chief a few years ago for a one year bump in my budget just to stock up.
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I'm not sure if its the same. Its just labled Ranger T series. We pretty much stick to Speer & Federal. We only get Winchester when we can't get anything else.
I don't know how big your dept. Is but I convinced the chief a few years ago for a one year bump in my budget just to stock up.
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We're small, 9 total. Only two full time right now, hiring a third back in July. I'm the chief. We have $2500 a year for ammo, it was only $750 when I became chief in '08.
I know the government uses money as it's big factor but I've seen the Bureau gel testing first hand as part of the firearms instructor course and was always impressed with their choices.
We recently went back to the Gold Dot 165 grain rounds after carrying the Winchester Ranger 180g for a few years. Both were very impressive in passing the FBI protocol testing for penetration, expansion, barrier blindness, wound cavity, etc.
Federal HSTs or Speer Gold Dots as Grant said. Both very good SD rounds.
I am pretty sure that the Ranger SXT or similar ammo is the improved "Black Talon" without the evil black color.
Here's an old water jug test I did with the Ranger ammo.
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/trixiebud/AmmoandReloading/hudson110.jpg
jaybarbour
04-10-13, 07:39
I carry the Ranger T 147 grain in my XDm and still carry 230gr HST +p's in my FNX45. I have gold dots for both as well as they were much less to buy in bulk. Nothing will do better for you than practice. Carry good ammo and practice, practice, practice.
Dawgfan4life
04-12-13, 10:27
@ 45David Winchester Ranger T-Series. Almost the same expansion with the sharp Talons. Check youtube for the comparison videos. I actually carry Black Talon in my .40 CZ SP01 Tac because i bought a box missing two rounds so i figured id carry it. But my whole family shoots the Rangers as well as my fiancees family
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