View Full Version : Another glass of M&P Kool Aide drank.....
Ok, I succumbed to the M&P peer pressure.
9mm full size.
What's the general consensus on replacement night sights?
Mine came without night sights also.
I swapped them out with a set of the Trijicon Novak style night sights and could not be more pleased. I think Grant still has them in stock.
Congrats on the M&P 9mm purchase. I'm sure you will be pleased.
Robb Jensen
03-13-08, 21:31
Ok, I succumbed to the M&P peer pressure.
9mm full size.
What's the general consensus on replacement night sights?
I'm not quite 'general' or 'normal' but I like OEM night sight/Trijicon front with Warren plain black rear.
Jay Cunningham
03-14-08, 00:29
You are a sick bastard.
Bowie/AmeriGlo trit front and serrated rear.
NCPatrolAR
03-14-08, 02:40
Factory front night sight w/ Burwell custom rear sight with single trit. vial.
Just to add my two centavos. Factory night sight front, 10-8 rear.
Good on ya Templar! I know you'll enjoy it.
Like va_dinger, I prefer the Novak style Trijicon NS front and rear.
I love it. :D
I'm running 10-8 rears and factory plain fronts. As soon as a certain person gets some Trijicon fronts in, I am going to try one of those.
John_Wayne777
03-14-08, 06:34
Ok, I succumbed to the M&P peer pressure.
9mm full size.
What's the general consensus on replacement night sights?
Bowie's night sights are good stuff. I have Bowie tritium fronts on all my M&Ps. I can't prove it but I believe they have a larger white outline around the tritium insert than the trijicons I had on previously.....and unlike the Trijicon front that crapped out on me during the low light class, Mr. Bowie's sights all still work just fine.
;)
If you want a standard 3 dot arrangement, or a 3 dot "operator" setup (where the rear sights do not have a white outline around the tritium vials) Mr. Bowie's rear sight also appears to be a very good option.
Personally I am running a plain black Warren rear sight on my M&Ps. So far I dig it. You should probably invest in an M&P sight tool too....trust me when I tell you that the brass punch and vice method is the road to heartache and woe.
Thanks for the input guys.
I know this is asking a lot, but if possible, could you take a picture of the Bowie, Burwell, and 10-8 rears?
Thanks. I blame all of you for the sucking sound my wallet is making.....:o
10-8 on a compact:
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/1788010-8.jpg
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/1788010-8_001.jpg
Burwell site with sights:
http://www.burwellgunsmithing.com/sights.htm
Bowie site with sights:
http://www.bowietacticalconcepts.com/ameriglobowietacticalmandpSights.html
Ok, I succumbed to the M&P peer pressure.
9mm full size.
What's the general consensus on replacement night sights?
If you want a factory trit rear, let me know as I just got my replacement rear and won't be needing the trit rear.
T, 10-8 rear on one of my M&P 9's.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/Hawkeye1/Guns/MP10-8-1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/Hawkeye1/Guns/MP10-8-2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v86/Hawkeye1/Guns/MP10-8-3.jpg
Congrats!
The Kool-aid is good indeed...:D
I'm in the same boat with my new M&P9 too. I will probably get a 10-8 rear with the .140" notch and Tritium front with white outline.
After looking at Hawkeye's 10-8 sight pictures above I'm pretty sure that what I will be going with.:cool:
Hawkeye,
Were you able to install the 10-8 sights yourself? If so how did you do it?
Currently, I'm running the standard factory night sights. They are mediocre.
The front shelf of the rear sight is too angled for proper malfunction clearance drills. Not the end of the world -- it's always good to practice alternative ways of doing drills, right? -- but definitely not my choice in design.
The tritium vials are recessed for some godawful reason. This makes the front sight collect and keep muzzle debris. The white dot gets blacked out fairly quickly and it requires some real effort to get it clean again.
Warren night sights will be available soon. The first prototypes are getting "vialed" by Tool-Tech now. Both 2- and 3-dot systems will be available. I've got a 2-dot on the way.
Smith is also redesigning their rear sight to address the first issue I mentioned, above. Not sure when the new sights will be out or whether they'll also fix the other problem.
bullitt5172
03-14-08, 17:35
Currently, I'm running the standard factory night sights. They are mediocre.
The front shelf of the rear sight is too angled for proper malfunction clearance drills. Not the end of the world -- it's always good to practice alternative ways of doing drills, right? -- but definitely not my choice in design.
The tritium vials are recessed for some godawful reason. This makes the front sight collect and keep muzzle debris. The white dot gets blacked out fairly quickly and it requires some real effort to get it clean again.
Warren night sights will be available soon. The first prototypes are getting "vialed" by Tool-Tech now. Both 2- and 3-dot systems will be available. I've got a 2-dot on the way.
Smith is also redesigning their rear sight to address the first issue I mentioned, above. Not sure when the new sights will be out or whether they'll also fix the other problem.
The rear is a standard Novak sight, they have never had a "shelf". Also, the tritium lamps are recessed because they have to be. We recess the lamps to allow our operators to hand paint the white outline. The tool-tech parts will be the same, they use our lamps and dimensions.
Bryan
John_Wayne777
03-14-08, 18:00
Some pictures of my Warren rear and Bowie/Ameriglo front w/ Trijicon tritium insert:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/IMGP0515.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/IMGP0513.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/IMGP0514.jpg
bullitt5172
03-14-08, 18:06
Some pictures of my Warren rear and Bowie/Ameriglo front w/ Trijicon tritium insert:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/IMGP0515.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/IMGP0513.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/jwayne_777/IMGP0514.jpg
Looks good, is the POI the same as with the standard rear?
RE fixed rear sights:
If I want a plain steel rear sight with a "U" shaped notch, would it be:
-Warren Tactical?
-10-8 or
-(is there a) Sevigny rear sight?
Which one costs the least? Source with sights in stock?
Finally, does the M&P share the Sig's front dovetail dimensions?
Thanks.
John_Wayne777
03-14-08, 19:11
Looks good, is the POI the same as with the standard rear?
Yup. The Warrens are a very different animal but once I got some trigger time with them I found that they work like a dream. I can't wait to use them in the upcoming Vickers classes I'm signed up for to really give them a workout.
Congrats!
The Kool-aid is good indeed...:D
I'm in the same boat with my new M&P9 too. I will probably get a 10-8 rear with the .140" notch and Tritium front with white outline.
After looking at Hawkeye's 10-8 sight pictures above I'm pretty sure that what I will be going with.:cool:
Hawkeye,
Were you able to install the 10-8 sights yourself? If so how did you do it?
Yes, I did. On all of mine. Brass punch and a small hammer. The trick is to drive the rear out from the left to the right, but stop before its all the way off. Let it stay partially in the dovetail, just enough to cover the firing pin block spring assembly. Then drive the new sight on again, from the left to the right, allowing it to finish pushing out the stock rear. Easy hand with the hammer and punch too. No need to go all Thor like on it.
The rear is a standard Novak sight, they have never had a "shelf".
I think that was my point, precisely. :D
Also, the tritium lamps are recessed because they have to be. We recess the lamps to allow our operators to hand paint the white outline. The tool-tech parts will be the same, they use our lamps and dimensions.
I'll have to go check my Berettas, I don't remember that recess in them or the pre-Meprolight SIGs I had (and I even had SIG send me the white-outline Trij for my front sights because I didn't like the outlineless version they used as standard back then). But admittedly, I was using Meps in my SIGs ever since the company changed vendors (late '04, early '05 after the ICE tests) and the M&P is the first set of Trij sights I've used in years.
Any specific advice on keeping the front sight from getting gunked up and/or recommendations for the best way to clean them when they do collect debris?
bullitt5172
03-14-08, 20:55
I think that was my point, precisely. :D
I'll have to go check my Berettas, I don't remember that recess in them or the pre-Meprolight SIGs I had (and I even had SIG send me the white-outline Trij for my front sights because I didn't like the outlineless version they used as standard back then). But admittedly, I was using Meps in my SIGs ever since the company changed vendors (late '04, early '05 after the ICE tests) and the M&P is the first set of Trij sights I've used in years.
Any specific advice on keeping the front sight from getting gunked up and/or recommendations for the best way to clean them when they do collect debris?
I'm not sure, I just wipe mine with a rag. They seem to clean up pretty well. As for the rear, I thought you were stating there was something wrong with your rear sight, not the Novak in general.
If I want a plain steel rear sight with a "U" shaped notch, would it be:
-Warren Tactical?
-10-8 or
-(is there a) Sevigny rear sight?
The Warren is not a u-notch. The 10-8 is. Every serious shooter I've met who's tried both has preferred the Warren. For me, it's much faster and looks like a more traditional sight picture, it just works better/faster than a true square cut rear notch.
U-notch sights suddenly started to make a comeback after so many in-the-know people began to gravitate towards the Warrens. Warren has the notch on his sights patented, and making his specific notch design is more timely/costly than a simple u-notch, as well. The u-notch is an attempt to achieve the same effect as the Warren sight, but it doesn't work the same way.
As I mentioned in another thread, the Warren sight is the only sight on the market that was designed over a period of years by a guy who is both a nationally recognized champion competitive shooter and the principle firearms instructor for a national asset CT team. The sights were then refined over time with input from dozens of people with serious competitive, military, and/or LE backgrounds. I've shot matches with Scott, been to one of his classes, and spent hours on the range with him at his team's facility. He knows enough about sight picture and sight alignment to make you feel a bit homicidal when he really gets going about it all. :cool:
I don't think there is a Sevigny rear for the M&P yet, but the Sevigny sights are Warrens without the shoulder cuts for people who want a more traditional sight picture.
I'm not sure, I just wipe mine with a rag. They seem to clean up pretty well.
On an M&P? The front really seems to black out faster than on other guns in my experience. And I can't get them clean without using solvent. Admittedly, my front sight (and the rest of the gun) will go thousands of rounds without getting cleaned, so I'm probably abusing things.
As for the rear, I thought you were stating there was something wrong with your rear sight, not the Novak in general.
Nope, I believe it's exactly the way it was designed: slanted to eliminate the chance of snagging. Of course, given the angle of the slant, it's more likely to eliminate snagging during a re-holster than a draw. :cool:
Yup. The Warrens are a very different animal but once I got some trigger time with them I found that they work like a dream. I can't wait to use them in the upcoming Vickers classes I'm signed up for to really give them a workout.
Yes, that Warren rear digs a little sometimes and is sharp but I have it on my G32 and it has worked very well at the pistol club shoots...
Yes, I did. On all of mine. Brass punch and a small hammer. The trick is to drive the rear out from the left to the right, but stop before its all the way off. Let it stay partially in the dovetail, just enough to cover the firing pin block spring assembly. Then drive the new sight on again, from the left to the right, allowing it to finish pushing out the stock rear. Easy hand with the hammer and punch too. No need to go all Thor like on it.
Cool, thanks! BTW, how did you support the slide? Did you just stick in a vise or did you use something else?
The carpeted floor in our sun room.....
Ok, I succumbed to the M&P peer pressure.
9mm full size.
What's the general consensus on replacement night sights?
I like Dawson, Bowie, Heini (when they are released) rears and a Trijicon front.
C4
The Warren is not a u-notch. The 10-8 is. Every serious shooter I've met who's tried both has preferred the Warren. For me, it's much faster and looks like a more traditional sight picture, it just works better/faster than a true square cut rear notch.
U-notch sights suddenly started to make a comeback after so many in-the-know people began to gravitate towards the Warrens. Warren has the notch on his sights patented, and making his specific notch design is more timely/costly than a simple u-notch, as well. The u-notch is an attempt to achieve the same effect as the Warren sight, but it doesn't work the same way.
As I mentioned in another thread, the Warren sight is the only sight on the market that was designed over a period of years by a guy who is both a nationally recognized champion competitive shooter and the principle firearms instructor for a national asset CT team. The sights were then refined over time with input from dozens of people with serious competitive, military, and/or LE backgrounds. I've shot matches with Scott, been to one of his classes, and spent hours on the range with him at his team's facility. He knows enough about sight picture and sight alignment to make you feel a bit homicidal when he really gets going about it all. :cool:
I don't think there is a Sevigny rear for the M&P yet, but the Sevigny sights are Warrens without the shoulder cuts for people who want a more traditional sight picture.
I personally do not like sights with the U-Notch (feels too clustered).
C4
militarymoron
03-15-08, 14:49
The Warren is not a u-notch. The 10-8 is.
well, what letter of the alphabet would you use to describe the warren, then? :)
i know what you're saying - the 10-8 'U' has a semi-circular bottom. the warren is a flattened 'U' (like this letter on the screen) with two small radii on each side with a flat bottom. still, until a better word to describe it comes along, it's still a 'U' notch (just a different font, if you will), and that's how it's referred to on the warren website:
"Warren Tactical Sights
Highest Quality Construction
Greater field of view
Patent Pending Wave Profile Design with U-Notch"
i have the warren rear on my G19 and M&P, and it's my favourite rear sight. i prefer it to the 10-8 notch, which i have on a 1911. the shape does make a difference.
mm -- Well I'm just flabbergasted to see that quote from Warren's website. Every time I've been around him and someone has called it a u-notch, he's spent no small time explaining that his sight isn't a u-notch. I'm going to have to tease him about this next time I see him.
You're absolutely correct, Warren's sight looks a lot more like the letter "u" in this font than a traditional u-notch. But a u-notch is generally considered to be something like the 10-8 design, with a continuous curve. Warren's notch is more like a traditional square cut, but with rounded corners.
Because of the curvature of a traditional u-notch, precise alignment can take more time (it's harder for most people to find the center of a half-circle than the center of a square or rectangle). But, it does eliminate the distracting sharp corners of a standard square notch, which makes for easier focus on the front sight.
Warren's design combines the easier alignment of the square notch with the reduced distraction of the u-notch. And because it really looks like a traditional square notch, most people don't need any time getting used to it.
And then of course there is the contour of the rear sight itself, which I think makes sense from a practical standpoint.
Grrrr ... this is making me so impatient for M&P night sights!
militarymoron
03-15-08, 16:03
yeah, you should tease scott about that :)
i can't believe it's been almost two years since i started using the warren sight - time flies. here's the writeup that i did back then:
http://www.militarymorons.com/weapons/pistols.html#warren
I just bought an M&P 9C last week for carry and I'm struggling with the same issue. Where are you guys buying your sights (both the Warrens and the Trij/Ameriglos)?
Thanks.
Jim
Robb Jensen
03-15-08, 19:37
I just bought an M&P 9C last week for carry and I'm struggling with the same issue. Where are you guys buying your sights (both the Warrens and the Trij/Ameriglos)?
Thanks.
Jim
I get mine directly from Scott, he's local to me (and you) and stops by the shop often and I see him at Blackwater and Fredericksburg USPSA matches sometimes.
For Warrens, I'd recommend SKD Tactical (http://www.skdtac.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=406).
For Ameriglo, I'd recommend going directly to David Bowie (http://www.bowietacticalconcepts.com/ameriglobowietacticalmandpSights.html).
I get mine directly from Scott, he's local to me (and you) and stops by the shop often and I see him at Blackwater and Fredericksburg USPSA matches sometimes.
Cool....did you get my PM about sights and trigger work?
Sounds like the Warren/Ameriglo combo may be the way to go.
Jim
Follow-up to the great Warren u-notch controversy. Just got an email from Scott:
"I didn't write it up as a U notch. XXXXXX [web person], might have, but I'll work on changing it. Or......it's.... causing you some undue stress and problems in your life....hmmmm.....maybe I'll leave it alone......"
:eek:
I read back through the posts and I didn't see anyone mention which front sight height/width combo they like with the Warren rear site. Bowie Tactical lists the following options:
.210" W/.140" H
.230" W/.140" H
.230" W/.125" H
.250" W/.140" H
What do you guys like?
Jim
I just purchased an M&P 9 and I find I tend to shoot it a little high with the stock 3-dot sights.
I'm pretty sure this is because I don't have the front dot low enough in the rear groove, as I've been able to make it shoot point of aim if I take some effort, but it just doesn't seem as natural as some other systems. for reference, other guns I shoot without this problem are a SIG with Ameriglos and a 1911 with simple post and notch sights.
short of replacing the sights (which I want to do soon) is there something I can do, such as blackening the dots that would help me?
I had the same problem. I used a Sharpie marker to black out the dots in the rear sight and found this helped me. I later replaced the stock rear sight with the 10-8 sight and found I liked this sight picture even better.
I had the same problem. I used a Sharpie marker to black out the dots in the rear sight and found this helped me. I later replaced the stock rear sight with the 10-8 sight and found I liked this sight picture even better.
your right. it's like the groove in the rear isn't deep enough to quickly register the contrast with the front post.
also, it appears the rear dots are bigger than the front. I may try blacking out the rears, if only with something that I can remove if it doesn't help.
thanks for the reply...
your right. it's like the groove in the rear isn't deep enough to quickly register the contrast with the front post.
also, it appears the rear dots are bigger than the front. I may try blacking out the rears, if only with something that I can remove if it doesn't help.
thanks for the reply...
I agree on the rear dots seeming bigger than the front. I also used a sharpie on mine until I decide what I want to do more permanently; and it is a lot less distracting so far.
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