Optics

[coble0369]

Anyone recommend an inexpensive optic that may be good for a backup or shooting package which a portion of may require the use of optics...Thanks.

[MassMark]

What's your budget? Magnification requirements?

[coble0369]

Budget? Well...you get what you pay for right?

[rob_s]

See my sigline.

(this is not meant as a smart-ass remark, but a genuine request in an effort to provide useful advice)

[bigsarg99]

I totally agree with you get what you pay for , but I recently had the chance to check out a Millet DMS (Designated Marksman Scope) and it really isnt a bad scope for around $199.00 (SWFA). I have thought of getting myself one and putting it in a good quality mount like a larue SPR. Good luck with your search!

[coble0369]

I'd love to have one of these!!!

http://www.militarywarfighter.com/trijicon-ta31ecos-1.html

[rob_s]

I'd love to have one of these!!!

http://www.militarywarfighter.com/trijicon-ta31ecos-1.html

Can you elaborate on why?

[coble0369]

I like the ACOG / RCO. I once used one on a KD Course firing from 200, 300, & 500 Yds (even though that wasn't what it was designed for) and it performed extremely well. Plus... it just looks BAD ASS!

[USMC03]

0369,


If you want to go the ACOG route, I would highly suggest the TA11. The TA11 is larger than the TA31 and TA01, but has a much longer eye relief. On Trijicon's spec sheet for the TA11 the eye relief is listed as 2.4".....it is much closer to 3.5"

The eye relief on the TA01 and TA31 is 1.5". I have used both the TA11 and TA01 / TA31 since 1998.

The extended eye relief of the TA11 really shines when shooting from non-traditional positions and when trying to locate numerous targets down range at different distances.

I have found that I'm much faster with the TA11 than the TA31.


My experience with several different optics:


https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=4209


Trijicon ACOG (TA01NSN, TA31, TA11....3.5x and 4x)

An ACOG would not be my choice for using on a CQB mission. When I first got a TA31 ACOG I used it for matches and became fairly proficient with it at rifle matches (3 yards to 425 yards), and after a short learning curve I felt comfortable using it at CQB distances.

I started using the TA31 at work and after my first couple SWAT missions, I quickly figured out that a 4x fixed optic was more of a liablity than an asset.

A 4x optic is very slow and doesn't afford the shooter a good sight picture or the ability to identify threats at CQB distances (concentrates on too small of a target area).

Often times when SWAT does an entry, both you and the bad guy are moving, it's dark, and you are using a white light, flash bangs are going off, you are trying to identify theats, dogs are so shitted they are either trying to get out of the house or trying to attack officers, there are people in the house that are not involved with the criminal activity (relatives or assoicates of the bad guy) etc, etc.



Doing CQB drills with an optic on a square range is quite different from using that same optic while doing a real world entry on a house with real suspects inside that would like to do you harm.




Trijicon TA31 + Doctor Optic Red Dot (TA31DOC)


I was considering the TA31 + JPoint / Doctor Optic set up, but that set up was the exact opposite of what I needed.

On the ACOG + DR Optic set up your primary optic is the ACOG and the Dr Optic is more of a back up in case you come across a target that is at CQB distances.

In my job approximately 75% of the work is at CQB distances and the other 25% is at longer ranges. I needed an optic that more geared toward what I do most.




Using the TA11 from 0 - 425 yards (you can see in the pics how much more eye relief the TA11 has):


https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=2475





S/F,
Jeff

[MassMark]

Budget? Well...you get what you pay for right?

Request for budget helps to determine a price range which narrows the field. Magnification requirement helps to narrow it further. Pretty simple. Your original post quote:
Anyone recommend an inexpensive optic that may be good for a backup or shooting package which a portion of may require the use of optics...Thanks.

That's too little information to make a sound recommendation. Then you post a link to an ACOG with a tag of $1500.00 and change. If that's your idea of "inexpensive" then it should suit you well.....

[coble0369]

I just came across that ACOG while searching for gear, I don't consider It inexpensive. Just thought It was pretty high speed.

[MaceWindu]

USMC03,

I agree. BUT, recently I just bought a NIB ACOG TA-31F + the Larue mount for $700 shipped and it was toooo good to pass up!! :D

CQB stuff, Aimpoint (I have 3) or EoTech ( I have 1). But the ACOG is a nice piece of glass.


Mace

[Gutshot John]

A reasonably priced ACOG is the 33 model (either 5.56 or 7.62 models).

It's basically a beefed up compact ACOG in 3X with built in base. It has a BDC and the "BAC" (whatever good that does).

You can get them for about $7-800. The do make a red-dot attachment as well for it.

I just put the 7.62 model on my DSA. I'm going to the range this weekend for a workup. Will let you know.

[FJB]

coble0369,
Still not knowing your price range or your mission parameter recommend you consider the following. First, is what my father always said, "trying to save a dime you'll spend a dollar every time." Second is what Pat Rogers father always told him, "Buy cheap, buy twice." Finally is what Larry Vickers says at every class, "I don't care what you do, pimp your wife if you have to, get a Red Dot Sight, esp. an Aimpoint."

Keep in mind that as I offer the following I do work for Aimpoint, Inc.

Definitely watch video clips Part 2 and Part 3 at www.downrange.tv/show2

Also, I offer the following regarding not only cost but life cycle costs (which are often ignored).

Aimpoint CompM4 w/3XMagnifier & Twist Mount MSR + Life Cycle Cost $1486
Life Cycle Cost - 80,000 Hours w/ AA Lithium Battery
CompM4 MSR $780 + 3X Magnifier MSR $535 + Twist Mount MSR $171
Weight - CompM4 335g + 3X Magnifier w/Twist Mount 300g = 635g

Aimpoint Micro T-1 w/LT 66X Tall Mount and 3XMagnifier & Twist Mount MSR + Life Cycle Cost $1347
Life Cycle Cost - 50,000 Hours w/ 2032 Lithium Battery - $1
Micro T-1 w/ LT66X Mount $640 + 3X Magnifier MSR $535 + Twist Mount MSR $171
Weight - CompM4 170g + 3X Magnifier w/Twist Mount 300g = 470g

Trijicon TA01NSN-DOC MSR + Life Cycle Cost $1605
Life Cycle Cost – 10 Years Tritium + 17,000 Hours CR2032 Battery = 5 Batteries X $0.97 = $5
TA01NSN-DOC MSR $1600 + Life Cycle Cost $5
Weight – 424g

Trijicon and USMC briefing points from the approved USMC CMP POI about using the ACOG/RCO:

The Chevron should be illuminated red. The illumination provided by the tritium lamp is very faint and will be hard to see without a dark-adapted eye. Remain in the dark room for approximately ten minutes to adapt your eyes to the dark. The ACOG is a 4 power scope. When using it to engage targets at close distances, the magnification can slow down your reaction time. The fiber optic/Tritium Red Chevron is faint to non-existent when going from bright outdoors to dark indoors (as is the case during daylight urban operations), when using a weapon mounted light in a dark enclosure/building, and shooting at targets from a dark enclosure/interior to a bright exterior/outdoor.

Those shooters that are cross-eye dominant, meaning they are using their non-dominate eye behind the optic, will experience a shift in POI when using both eyes open shooting. Encourage these shooters to transition to their dominant side. The only other option is to use the optic like a traditional scope and close the non-shooting eye. The disadvantage of this choice is it’s much slower in close quarters shooting.

Trijicon and USMC Warnings about using the ACOG/RCO on the battlefield:

Optic uses Radioactive Materials and is considered a Radiation Hazard. The ACOG contains radioactive material for nighttime illumination. The human body does not easily retain hydrogen or Tritium as a gas. However, the oxide, HTO,
which is formed by the burning of the Tritium, is 10,000 times more hazardous. Be cautious if ACOG is burning.

S/F

[coble0369]

I'm actually looking at this one right now...for the following reasons:

1. Small
2. Mounts directly to rail
3. Affordable.

http://www.eotech-inc.com/product.php?id=10&cat=2

[Soulrack223]

I would say Eotech all the way. Just over $300 and no extra cost for a mount.

[rob_s]

I would say Eotech all the way. Just over $300 and no extra cost for a mount.

Problem being that the crummy battery life and the too-low mounting position offset those "benefits" to make the Eotech actually the more expensive option. :eek:

[FJB]

Continuation of what I posted previously about comparing life cycle costs before purchasing. "Trying to save a dime, you'll spend a dollar every time." Keep in mind these are MSRP costs to keep thing as much apples to apples as possible. You can find better prices from G&R Tactical and LaRue Tactical.

Aimpoint CompM4 MSR + Life Cycle Cost $780
Life Cycle Cost - 80,000 Hours w/ AA Lithium Battery
CompM4 MSR $780
Weight - CompM4 335g

Aimpoint CompM3 QRP Mount MSR + Life Cycle Cost $678
Life Cycle Cost – 50,000 Hours w/ CR 1/3N Lithium Battery = 2 Batteries X $3.49 = $7
CompM3 MSR $556 + QRP Mount w/Spacer MSR $115
Weight – CompM3 w/ QRP Mount 335g

Aimpoint CompM2 QRP Mount MSR + Life Cycle Cost $619
Life Cycle Cost – 20,000 Hours w/ CR 1/3N Lithium Battery = 4 Batteries X $3.49 = $14
CompM2 MSR $490 + QRP Mount w/Spacer MSR $115
Weight - CompM2 w/ QRP Mount 335g

Micro T-1 w/LT660 Mount MSR + Life Cycle Cost $749
Life Cycle Cost – 50,000 Hours w/CR2032 Lithium Battery = 2 Batteries X $0.99 = $2
Micro T-1 MSR $650 + LT660 Mount MSR $98
Weight – Micro T-1 w/ LT Mount 177gr

Aimpoint CompC3 QRP Mount MSR + Life Cycle Cost $537
Life Cycle Cost – 50,000 Hours w/ CR 1/3N Lithium Battery = 2 Batteries X $3.49 = $7
CompC3 MSR $415 + QRP Mount w/Spacer MSR $115
Weight – CompM3 w/ QRP Mount 335g


EOTech 552.A65 MSR + Life Cycle Cost $844
Life Cycle Cost – 1100 Hours AA Lithium Battery = 146 Batteries X $2.50 ea = $365
552.A65 MSR $479 + Life Cycle $365
Weight – 552.A65 326g

EOTech 557.AR223 MSR + Life Cycle Cost $934
Life Cycle Cost – 1100 Hours AA Lithium Battery = 146 Batteries X $2.50 ea = $365
557.AR223 MSR $569 + Life Cycle $365
Weight – 557.AR223 326g

EOTech 512.A65 MSR + Life Cycle Cost $784
Life Cycle Cost – 1100 Hours w/ 2 AA Lithium Batteries = 146 Batteries X $2.50 ea = $365
512.A65 MSR $419 + Life Cycle $365
Weight – 512.A65 326g

EOTech 512.A65 MSR + Life Cycle Cost $739
Life Cycle Cost – 350 Hours w/ 2 AA Alkaline Batteries = 458 Batteries X $.70 ea = $320
512.A65 MSR $419 + Life Cycle $320
Weight – 512.A65 326g

EOTech 511.A65 MSR + Life Cycle Cost $1439
Life Cycle Cost – 200 Hours w/2 N Cell Alkaline Batteries = 800 Batteries X $1.30 ea = $1040
511.A65 MSR $399 + Life Cycle $1040
Weight – 512.A65 326g

[Soulrack223]

Problem being that the crummy battery life and the too-low mounting position offset those "benefits" to make the Eotech actually the more expensive option. :eek:

I've shot thousands of rounds with my 552 and I am very used to its height. I agree it would be nice if it was taller. And AA batteries aren't too bad on the pocket book. I've narrowed my next optic purchase down to an Aimpoint M4 or a Trijicon TA11.

Is there any problem with using the TA11 with a fixed FSB? I see
USMC03 uses one in the pic he linked to in this thread. I use my Eotech with an LMT BUIS and fixed FSB without any issues.

[rob_s]

See the post above yours. AA batteries may not be expensive two at a time, but they cumulatively add up to push the life-cycle cost of the optic over that of the Aimpoints.

The C3 in a mount for $450 is still the most economical of the red dot sights available.