View Full Version : Recovery after shooting vs Cold range rules?
As an LEO I have been trained a certain way in that after I shoot I do autogenic breathing, look around to break up the tunnel vision and re holster. Will USPSA and IDPA Range Officers allow me to shoot the course, do my recovery, and once I have finished that draw again to unload and show clear? I am interested in getting into competitions like 3gun, IDPA and others, but all the competitions I know have cold range rules that appear on the surface to prohibit my reholstering with a hot weapon and I would prefer a Range Officer not to go off on me for staying with my training.
As an IDPA SO, I don't like people re-holstering at the end of a COF, but every club is likely to be different.
The main reason I don't like it is because, when it happens, it's usually unexpected and it's usually by the guy that just ran the sloppiest COF you've ever seen. Note, I say "usually", which is not meant to imply that this means you. ;)
If the shooter told me what he planned to do before he started the stage, and if he appeared to be relatively adept at handling his firearm (SO long enough and you can spot who will be and who won't be before they even get to the line), I don't think I'd have a problem with what you described. I do not know if our club/range/IDPA has a rule against this or not, but I will find out and report back.
slightly off topic...
I prefer to top off the gun at the end. I like to do a quick tac-load, but keep the gun out of the holster. Personally, I'd prefer to not work re-holstering into my TTP at all, but YMMV.
Thanks for the reply. I figured on letting a Range Officer know before I did it that way, but I know there are variances on rules and personalities so I thought I would check to see if there were any official stances that way before I would check into it locally.
I do my tac load at the end. What I want to avoid is along the lines of mentally thinking I need to unload my gun after a confrontation. There was a documented incident I believe in the 70's where cops were killed in a firefight. They had empty brass in their hands, mentally looking for the range bucket for the brass. That incident led to a change in the TTP for revolver reloads, and t has carried through to today.
I wish there was a competition that was more like training. If we move with longguns an sling them and carry on a hot range I wish there were some similar courses of fire competition-wise.
The issue becomes one of safety, and of the "lowest common denominator". I would like to see the same things you do, but frankly there are some shooters that come out to IDPA that I barely trust with a loaded firearm under my direct supervision, let alone wandering around the range hot.
I do know what you mean though. When I'm on a hot range it almost feels odd for the first 30 minutes or so until I get used to not having to unload.
CarlosDJackal
03-14-08, 14:27
As an IDPA SO, I don't care what you do at the end of your string as long as you do it safely.
However, I am in agreement with rob about the re-holstering part because I will have to ask you to take that gun out and conduct the IDPA-accepted clearing steps (drop mag, clear chamber, lock slide to the rear, allow SO to inspect pistol, let the slide go forward, pull the trigger, and then re-holster).
This would take up time and if we let every competitor do this, it would add quite a bit of time to the match. JM2CW.
Reholstering is the fastest part of the recovery. Doing autogenic breathing and checking 6 breaking up my tunnel vision is deliberately slowing things down. Isn't it better to mentally get back out of the high-speed action of the COF? I would think less accidents would be caused this way although I understand about the need to move people through the course. But accidents happen most when we rush too...
I'm probably making a deal about nothing but I hate changes when I train one way and I'm not supposed to do as I train when I use it.
Jay Cunningham
03-14-08, 15:54
This is why I'm leery of competition - for me, reholstering is done very slowly and deliberately. The draw needs to be as fast as possible, but the scan and assess needs to be deliberate.
They are two worlds, though. Don't take this as game bashing, because it's not. Just commenting on mindset.
As someone who uses a "done fighting" ritual myself, but also competes fairly regularly around the country, my advice is to ask the RO in advance. But eventually, you're likely to let it go. It takes up time for you, the RO, and the other competitors.
Here is my personal approach, ymmv: finish the stage, scan (180 not 360; don't even take the risk of getting DQ'd by someone who thinks your eyes and muzzle must be pointed in the same direction), tell myself in my head "this is where I would put a fresh mag in my gun" and then go through the Unload Show Clear procedure.
Really, nothing about the end of an IDPA or USPSA stage is going to be realistic in terms of a post-fight response, anyway. At the game, you know for certain* that the "fight" is over and act accordingly. You don't stay behind cover, assess, communicate, look for egress, etc.
* At an IDPA match I ran once, we actually used a "surprise" target that didn't appear until after the shooter was most of the way through the course of fire. It looked like a non-threat target in the beginning, but when the shooter turned to engage targets on the other side of the bay, the non-threat target dropped to reveal a threat behind it. Shooters who took the time to scan or were situationally aware enough saw it and engaged it. Plenty of others just missed it completely.
I agree with Todd. Also, don't let your routine stop you from getting trigger time at either type of shoot. Usually, the IDPA rules are a lot more restrictive and you are not allowed to do anything different at all. But, what you are proposing sounds safe to me - so I see no reason why the S.O. would not let you do it as long as you let them know ahead of time. If they had a serious problem with it, find another club.
USPSA (sks IPSC) is free-style. You want to shoot from concealment or use duty gear? No problem. Want to do tac reloads or reloads with retention? Go fo it. Want to use available cover? Sure thing. So long as you are safe, you will always be welcome at a USPSA shoot. Around here (DC) its all the same people in both sports anyway. Come out, shoot & enjoy.
Regards,
TY-44934
The way I handle this is:
After I think I'm done shooting, I pause and scan. I usually become aware of my breathing at that time too. I do not unload and show clear until the RO gives me the command.
When I'm shooting otherwise, no one tells me to unload and show clear, so I reload and re-holster.
The problems only arise when you get in the habit of speed unloading and speed reholstering after the course of fire. I've RO'd shooters who were unloaded and in the holster before I even gave the "If you are finished . . ." part of the command. That's not good for a lot of reason, but for this topic, it's the prime example of being programmed with a bad habit.
Good point Rhino on waiting for the SO to give you the command.
If someone closes the slide on his gun before I've had a chance to look and verify it's clear, as the RO, I make him do it again. Sometimes a competitor gets pissy but tough cookies. FWIW, I never see the top competitors making that mistake. They might get the gun empty in the blink of the eye, but they don't holster it until the RO gives them the green light.
I learned this the hard way during one of the first IDPA matches I ever worked. A competitor, who was a friend of mine, did his Unload Show Clear to fast and got the sequence messed up (racked then mag out ... experienced shooter having a brain fade). I thought nothing of it because, you know, he was a buddy and I knew he was a safe gun handler. When he got the Hammer Down command and the gun made that really, really loud noise, he was the one who got DQ'd. But I was the person responsible for enforcing safety and felt like a complete idiot for being so lax.
Good point Todd, and similar in some ways to the reason that I always say "pull the trigger" and not "drop the hammer". If someone de-cocks, I have them pull the trigger (downrange) anyway just to be sure.
I've also had shooters give me that huffy sigh when I say "can you open that back up please so I can see the chamber?" We have some shooters that do the whole "jack the slide, catch the round, pocket the round, pull the trigger, holster the gun" all before the SO has even said "unload and show clear". I just simply refuse to run those guys.
I've also had shooters give me that huffy sigh when I say "can you open that back up please so I can see the chamber?" We have some shooters that do the whole "jack the slide, catch the round, pocket the round, pull the trigger, holster the gun" all before the SO has even said "unload and show clear". I just simply refuse to run those guys.
I guess I'm just evil. I love running guys like that, because I feel it is my duty to right-minded shooters everywhere to insist that such competitors perform the holstering procedure properly. I've got absolutely no problem making them do it all over again the right way. I've got absolutely no problem warning them that multiple infractions of the safety rules will earn them a DQ. And I've certainly got zero problem kicking their butts off the range.
Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. :D
My day-in-day-out job is yelling at people and getting them to do what they are supposed to. I don't like spending my weekends and time off that way. I've gotten to where I frankly don't even like to SO anymore and would prefer to just hang out, paste, and shoot like the rest of the goobers.
CarlosDJackal
03-15-08, 18:00
...The problems only arise when you get in the habit of speed unloading and speed reholstering after the course of fire. I've RO'd shooters who were unloaded and in the holster before I even gave the "If you are finished . . ." part of the command. That's not good for a lot of reason, but for this topic, it's the prime example of being programmed with a bad habit.
Amen!! And Iv'e seen this bite a lot of good shooters who missed one or more targets and never gave me (as the RO) to drop them a hint about them.
There is absolutely nothin wrong with doing a scan after a srting in any GAME. And as TY44934 mentioned, giving up trigger time that can and usually does incorporate a lot of shooting techniques that is not allowed in most square ranges (movement, drawing from a holster, drawing from concealment, use of cover, etc) just because you want to do things your way is assinine.
The IDPA, IPSC, and what-have-you are first and foremost games. But these are excellent venues to test ones ability to think and shoot while under pressure as induced by th shot timer (you'd besurprised how easy it is to get a brain fart when that thing goes off) and while trying to perform in front of other shooters.
Don't let the anti-competition crowd disuade you against competition. When done properly and approached with the correct mindset, competition has always been, and can always be conducted in direct support of combat training. JM2CW.
CarlosDJackal
03-15-08, 18:09
Good point Todd, and similar in some ways to the reason that I always say "pull the trigger" and not "drop the hammer". If someone de-cocks, I have them pull the trigger (downrange) anyway just to be sure.
I've also had shooters give me that huffy sigh when I say "can you open that back up please so I can see the chamber?" We have some shooters that do the whole "jack the slide, catch the round, pocket the round, pull the trigger, holster the gun" all before the SO has even said "unload and show clear". I just simply refuse to run those guys.
I never hesitate to force those type of guys into doing it the right way. And I make sure that I take a little extra time in checking they chamber and the magazine well and force them to do each step at my command.
It has gone something like this:
"Please take your handgun back out of the holster and lock the slide open. I did not get to inspect your chamber."
"Hold it! Slow down!"
"Stop!! Don't do anything until I tell you to and we'll get through this a lot quicker and a lot safer, understand?"
" now let's try this again."
"Please lock the slide to the rear."
"Thank you."
<I manually check the chamber and the magwell>
"Okay now, please release the slide."
"Point the gun downrange."
"Pull the trigger."
"Now, you can holster."
"Okay, now we're clear!!" :D
"
One of the few positive USPSA rules changes in recent years was the adoption of "If clear, hammer down," replacing, "Gun clear, hammer down."
The onus of an empty gun was always on the shooter, but the current range command emphasizes whose responsibility it is ultimately.
While I don't have the amount of experience of many here, where I shoot 3-gun, the SO will ask when I'm done "Are you finished". This is my time to scan the area if I want. Also, I usually reholster afterwards, so I must unholster anyway, unless I remember not to.
When making safe at the end of the stage, I always wait for the SOs commands, I don't move ahead of time.
I used to shoot CAS, and am a SO for that venue, so I know what it's like to be the one holding the timer.
Alaskapopo
05-23-08, 17:37
As a leo who shoots USPSA and IDPA I find the cold range mentality stupid beyond belief. If you can't trust someone with a loaded gun you can't trust them on the street or shooting the match. I have been running hot ranges in the LEO world for 6 years as an instructor with no ND's. You fight as you train and I can see some poor sap un-loading and showing clear in the real world because he was too used to shooting in the games. Granted not all game shooters have the skills training and back ground of most leo shooters but that can be corrected with running some simple training classes before people are allowed to shoot at a match.
Pat
I love taking the training classes where its a hot range. The fight as you train mentality has been done for so many years that to automatically go to cold range rules feels like a short circuit in the thinking process.
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