View Full Version : Ideal loads for Smith 36 J-frame
I don't have in-depth knowledge about revolvers.
Now, I heard that with a classic no dash Model 36, that one should not use +P ammo. I heard it on random parts of the internet, so I'm not sure how truthful that all is.
So I'd like to get a clarification. What ammo is best for that weapon for a) normal shooting/practice and b) protection?
Thank you.
ETA: I found a bunch of old .38 ammo that appears to be military M41 ball, with a funny looking jacketed round nose bullet. (I had never seen that for revolver ammo before). Would this be OK to blast through at the range, or is it corrosive?
A steady diet of +P ammunition will stretch the frame on an old J-Frame. You can fire a few rounds to see where they hit and practice with standard velocity ammunition. I carried Federal Ny-Clad ammunition years ago, but I don't know if it is still available. I am not a big fan of the Win. Silver Tip.
When I owned a Model 36, they way I saw it was that my life was worth wrecking the revolver if I had to use it to defend myself.
Check the head stamp on the military ammunition. If it is military issue, I will bet it's 130g FMJ. The U.S. Military hasn't issued handgun ammunition with corrosive primers for at least 50 years.
A lot of military issue ammunition produced during WWII was corrosive, but not much corrosive ammunition has been produced since then.
So +P is OK to shoot sparingly, and obviously for defense. With that being said, what loads should I look at?
The headstamp for all that ammo I was talking about is mostly RA and year (I think that means Remington Arms), and there is a lot of WCC and year. The WCC stuff is from the early to mid 60s and very clean looking; still looks new. Some of these are from the 50s as well.
I would carry the Ny-Clad if I still owned an older alloy J-Frame. I have put down a few coyote and deer with the round fired out of my J-Frame and almost all of them opened up nicely. The Winchester Silver Tips never opened up.
http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/handgun.aspx?id=828
I've got an aluminum frame 638 that I won't shoot +P or even heavy bullets from. I keep it loaded with 115gr Hydrashoks. I don't care if it is rated for +P. I don't trust it. I remember reading an old gun mag article about blown up airweights when I was a kid.
Even in +P rated J frames I prefer stand pressure for practice.
I have done a little more research around the web, and I learned of a load called the FBI load which is a +P 158gr LSWCHP and that some people favor those in their snubbies because the soft lead will definitely expand.
I think that I may be worrying too much about overpressure due to my lack of inexperience with wheelguns and snubbies in particular. I don't want this thing to blow up after 50 rounds.
I guess when in doubt it makes sense to go for that Nyclad, but I want to learn about the other options as well. I see that Speer makes a Gold Dot for short barrels as well.
I have done a little more research around the web, and I learned of a load called the FBI load which is a +P 158gr LSWCHP and that some people favor those in their snubbies because the soft lead will definitely expand.
I carried the FBI load for years, because urban legend said it always expanded. A few years ago I had the opportunity to shoot the FBI load out of my J-Frame into ballistic gelatin. None of the projectiles expanded. We fired the Speer 135g GDHP and it expanded every time. The GDHP is what I carry in my current J-Frame, but it is rated for +P ammunition.
Interesting. Alright.
I already like the Gold Dots, and that just affirms it.
I can't wait to shoot this gun, as I never have shot anything like it. I'll get some pics when I can.
Standard pressure loads for practice, I prefer lead ( cheaper and in revolver usually more accurate) 158 Lrn or 148 wadcutters . While it would not be a first choice it is not unheard of to carry the wadcutters also.
With plus p in any revolver the general rule I see most people follow is buy a box of whatever carry load you will use ( do not have to be nearly as fussy as you do with autos ) shoot 15 to know where they go in relation to poa then carry them. Depending on how you feel about it once a year for me- shoot those in the gun and remainder of the box. 50 plus p a year in a steel frame gun like the 36 will have it worn out in about 100 years
Another thing except for the new short barrel specific loads you often find in snubs that the velocity gain with plus p is so marginal it is not worth the extra blast and recoil
DirectDrive
02-26-13, 09:16
Standard pressure loads for practice, I prefer lead ( cheaper and in revolver usually more accurate) 158 Lrn or 148 wadcutters . While it would not be a first choice it is not unheard of to carry the wadcutters also.
With plus p in any revolver the general rule I see most people follow is buy a box of whatever carry load you will use ( do not have to be nearly as fussy as you do with autos ) shoot 15 to know where they go in relation to poa then carry them. Depending on how you feel about it once a year for me- shoot those in the gun and remainder of the box. 50 plus p a year in a steel frame gun like the 36 will have it worn out in about 100 years
148 gr HBWC over some 231 is the bees knees for target shooting.
My Model 14 shoots those better than I can aim.
Old time self defense recipe was to reverse the hollow base, now there are lighter, faster and better expanding slugs available.
Back in the late 1970's I attended an S&W revolver Armorers Course. I always recall what the Instructor said when it came to J frame snub's; "Designed to be carried a LOT, but SHOT very little".
He suggested 148 wadcutters for practice and to use 150-158 gr lead SWC's for carry.
I carried a circa 1985 M-60 2" for 23 years as my backup. It may have had 50 rds of my "carry ammo" through it the entire time...but probably ten times that amount of light, 148 gr wadcutter loads. Still times up and locks up just right.
The Speer 135 gr GDHP is an excellent load for carry.
FN in MT
Thanks for the information, gentlemen.
And after how many shots in general should I expect to clean a revolver that had some LRN or LSWCs or anything with unjacketed lead shot through it?
A quick cleaning ( brush through bore ,each chamber clean under extractor star and drop of oil on bolt hand and extractor rod) every few hundred rounds will do the trick. My never fail late 60's model 36 is treated as mentioned with no issues. You do 't have to be too fussy with them.
I found out that the pistol my family has (the one I've implicitly been inquiring about in this thread) is one of these so-called Pre-Model 36s. The grips are slightly different and the latch is flat.
Does this change anything whatsoever, since it is an older piece?
I found out that the pistol my family has (the one I've implicitly been inquiring about in this thread) is one of these so-called Pre-Model 36s. The grips are slightly different and the latch is flat.
Does this change anything whatsoever, since it is an older piece?
I would not shoot +P ammunition out of your revolver. There are better options now than back when your revolver was made.
Cleaning should be the same as with a newer J-Frame.
I would closely inspect the revolver each time I fired it and check for signs of abnormal wear.
As long as you fire mostly target loads, your revolver should last you for years.
Roger that. I shall just enjoy the revolver for what it is. It's fine.
Personally, if I had to start from scratch, I'd get a GLOCK 26 for a sub-compact CCW.
Certainly, it has been interesting to learn about these little J-frames.
The Speer 135gr +P is a pretty hot load even by +P standards.
If your model 36 was my gun I would shoot and carry 148gr target wadcutters.
See Doc Roberts comments in the Terminal Ballistics forum.
Your pre-Model 36 is all steel. Provided it has been well maintained and is in good working order, you can put any .38 Special load through it you want, +P and otherwise, and be fine.
The best reason to stick with the weaker loads for target practice is, simply, they're cheaper. But you should periodically run a few cylinders of what you're going to be carrying, and you can do this without fear.
+P .38 loads today are loaded to the pressures that standard .38 Special loads were when your Model 36 was made. It can handle them fine.
Cleaning is a matter of personal preference; any firearm I carry is cleaned after each use and I'd recommend that for your J-frame.
If you want a monster defense load, look at Buffalo Bore's version of the FBI load: 158 grain LSWCHC .38 Special +P. It'll kick and I don't recommend it even in a steel J-frame but some people want all the hit their firearm can push and this load makes mid-range .357 numbers.
Buffalo Bore also makes a standard power version of the same load that is still an impressive hitter and I'd consider it.
Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel 135 grain HP .38 Special +P is also an excellent defensive round out of the snubbies, as is CorBon DPX 110 grain HP .38 Special +P.
Any of these rounds will serve you well and be fine for defensive use and periodic range time in your Model 36.
Remington, Winchester and Federal all have versions of the traditional FBI load you can also considers, though -- as noted in a previous post -- there is some skepticism over the quality of current versions.
If you'd feel better using a non +P defensive round, Hornady's Critical Defense 110 grain HP .38 Special standard pressure gets good marks overall and is very soft shooting.
Have you read this page?:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19914
+P ammo will not blow up your gun. Lots of it will wear your gun out quicker than non +P ammo, but shooting that much +P is a real chore and you will likely quit before the gun does.
If you want non +P defensive loads then wadcutters or the Hornady Critical Defense are the best bets. The old, and now new, Nyclad loads were never that great and I have no idea why it has such a cult following in some circles.
Many of the older guns are a chore to find a load that shoots to your sights. A few guys I really respect pick a range of ammo they find acceptable then figure out which one shoots the best from their gun and go with that, even if it isn't the best choice from gelatin testing.
I know one very well respected trainer and gunfight veteran who has three different loads for three different snubs, because each shoots differently from his guns.
Wadcutters is all I'm carrying these days in my lightweight snubs. They penetrate, they don't kick, and I know exactly where they're going.
I don't have in-depth knowledge about revolvers.
Now, I heard that with a classic no dash Model 36, that one should not use +P ammo. I heard it on random parts of the internet, so I'm not sure how truthful that all is.
So I'd like to get a clarification. What ammo is best for that weapon for a) normal shooting/practice and b) protection?
Thank you.
ETA: I found a bunch of old .38 ammo that appears to be military M41 ball, with a funny looking jacketed round nose bullet. (I had never seen that for revolver ammo before). Would this be OK to blast through at the range, or is it corrosive?
I run a hydrashock 38+p or a Critical Duty 38+p in my j-model
Thanks for the additional responses, guys.
I still have never shot a snubbie before. I want to see if I can take it out this weekend to get a feel for it. I'd be trying it out with M-41 ball which is supposed to be very mild. If not this weekend, then some other time.
I am still amazed at how small these guns are.
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/482255_2966876788525_1573323318_n.jpg
I'd like to bump this older thread to ask a question:
Now that I've had some trigger time with this gun (about 130 rounds of M41 ball ammo) and am getting a little better with the double action...
I'm wondering, what does the M4C community recommend as a good holster for a left handed person. Now, I know I live in CA and my county isn't carry friendly. However, that doesn't mean I can't do it and practice and get used to it around the home. After all, I don't plan on staying here forever. Hell no!
So with that being said, what's a good holster for this gun?
SeriousStudent
08-04-13, 01:37
How are you planning on carrying it? Pocket carry, IWB, AIWB, OWB?
Do you prefer Kydex or Moodex?
I'm right-handed, but often carry a 642 in a left-front pocket. I use a leather pocket holster from this guy:
http://www.rkbaholsters.com/
It's worked very well for years. I have a right and a left hand model.
I've been using this 'Pocket-Roo (http://www.tuffproducts.com/Pocket_Roo_Pocket_Holster_p/5077-tta.htm)' from Tuff Products for several years now, and it's been great. Safariland used to make a pocket holster as well, but I only carried with it once (borrowed).
As for ammo, the short-barrel GD load is pretty hard to beat, but I stick with 148gr wadcutters. They're cheap to shoot so I can practice with carry ammo. They penetrate very well, which is one of the main concerns with a little BUG. They don't recoil very much, so I get off follow-up shots faster. They're very accurate, at least at distances I would consider using a J-frame.
And, I have to confess, I'm influenced by reading Cirillo. I figure that guy's shot more people with .38 Special than anyone else, he probably realized what worked for that envelope.
I was reading on this site about how the regular 148gr WCs were decent out of a snubbie.
As a result, I have set aside a box of them for defensive purposes. I did pop off a few yesterday and noticed that you definitely feel them more compared to the M41 ball (which is great range ammo IMO). I'm getting to the point where I can get most hits inside an 8" circle at 15yds on double action. And this is only my real third time taking it out to the range. The first time, I could barely stay inside 8" @ 5 yds on D/A!!!
I'll be honest, I wouldn't know the best way to carry this or another gun. How does one determine which position is best for him? I figured I'd go with something along the waistband, but I see that these pocket holsters are quite popular.
SeriousStudent
08-04-13, 09:47
......
I'll be honest, I wouldn't know the best way to carry this or another gun. How does one determine which position is best for him? I figured I'd go with something along the waistband, but I see that these pocket holsters are quite popular.
Personally, if I can carry something and conceal it IWB or OWB, I'm not going to carry a J-frame. I'm going to carry the biggest thing I can conceal, which is going to be a G26, then move up to a G19, then move up to a G17. IWB tends to be the G19, and OWB tends to be the G17.
Your mileage may vary. But unless the J-frame is your only pistol, I'd carry something bigger if you are not doing the pocket carry thing. Just friendly advice, no finger wagging going on.
And the Gold Dots work really well for me also, in regards to accuracy.
walkin' trails
08-04-13, 23:20
I carry a 640 in a High Noon Mr. Softy AIWB. There may be better rigs, but the 640's a BUG.
Ive talked to old treasury agents who carried the Js with the Federal 110 +p+ load. They said that the little guns were mostly in danger of shooting loose. My understanding was that it took a pretty stout load to stretch the frame. The 38 Special was originally designed around the 158.grain load and most will shoot point of aim with a bullet of that configuration. If you go with standard pressure rounds, I'd go with the heavier bullet. The wad cutter will cause damage to a predator, but would not be my first choice for a carry load. Therebare stories that S&W had a prototype J in 357.back in the mid 50s, but decided not to produce it because no one liked the recoil.
Personally, if I can carry something and conceal it IWB or OWB, I'm not going to carry a J-frame. I'm going to carry the biggest thing I can conceal, which is going to be a G26, then move up to a G19, then move up to a G17. IWB tends to be the G19, and OWB tends to be the G17.
Your mileage may vary. But unless the J-frame is your only pistol, I'd carry something bigger if you are not doing the pocket carry thing. Just friendly advice, no finger wagging going on.
And the Gold Dots work really well for me also, in regards to accuracy.
Got it.
For the time being, this is the only working pistol I have access to. Of course, I can't carry it outside legally because I live in a communist state.
brushy bill
08-23-13, 22:14
148 wadcutters in the revolver (left pocket carry for a righty) and the revolver in a Mika (http://www.frontiernet.net/~akim/).
PriseDeFer
08-28-13, 09:24
roj, you said Model 36 no dash. Smith & Wesson has said that all the steel guns with a model NUMBER are OK for +P. Is this not so?
roj, you said Model 36 no dash. Smith & Wesson has said that all the steel guns with a model NUMBER are OK for +P. Is this not so?
I honestly don't know. All I know about this gun is that it's a 1962 vintage.
After 200 rounds thus far, I'm starting to get a little better with it. I make it a point to only shoot in double action these days, but I do it slowly to set the trigger up. I don't know if that's kosher or not. I can't see any other way to hit the target.
And this has become my favorite pistol for some reason. Yesterday i shot a box of old "Peters" 158gr LRN which had more feel to them than the 130gr M41 ball.
I carry my late 60's era 36 in an alessi ankle holster- not as slow into action as people think with practice and very concealable. I just stick with non plus p myself but if I had affordable plus p in quantity I would not hesitate to shot them
I have a S&W 37 have been carrying in ankle holster. I use Hornady 158HP's non +P. I deepened the hp and it's a tad wider. No lead removed so the weights the same. I have a needle punch and it works like a charm. It may help open these heavy slugs up or just a tad to deform the tip slightly. Good penetration with the 158 bullet non +P.
As for holsters - my J frame is most often in my pocket. I use the Desantis Superfly. Cheap and very effective! For an ankle - Alessi. Not cheap, but the best there is IMO.
Ammo: I personally don't believe there is a better defensive round for snubbies than the 135gr Gold Dot. It's the only round developed and tested for 2" barrels. Speer finally recognized that all 38/357 ammo was engineered around 4" duty revolvers that nobody carries anymore. NYPD uses the 135 GDHP and I think other agencies as well (the names escape me). It's what I keep in mine. If it wasn't available, I'd use the Corbon DPX (or some load with the Barnes X bullet).
voiceofreason
09-11-13, 15:50
for steel, non Al or lightweight type frames, I'd definitely go with the GD 135 +p or Barnes/Corbon DPX 110 +p
for lightweight j frames, I recommend the Federal Nyclads as well if you don't want to go the +p route
I'd run either of the top loads if I wanted to do +p.
I think the Nyclads will do a ton of damage, but they're fairly short on penetration. Carry them regularly with no issues. More concerned with 5 shots before reload than the rounds themselves.
IMHO Buffalo Bore makes outstanding ammo for small frame short barrel revolvers.....standard pressure, low flash, 14 in penetration, good expansion and gas checked so it won't lead your barrel etc...(and I like Nyclads as well)
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=110
Alpha Sierra
10-13-13, 08:58
Despite all the newer loads out there, I still stoke my 637 and 64 with Remington 158+P LSWCHP and my 65 with either Remington or Federal .357 Magnum 125 gr semi-jacketed HP.
Those old school rounds put lots of people in the dirt back in the day and will still do so today.
I use "Safe Stop" 148grn+P LSWC in my Mod 36. This load was developed by Jim Cirillo and I was fortunate to score two boxes of it a few years ago. It's a great round, recoil is moderate and it shoots to P.O.A in my 36.
On duty I carry my J frame in Alessi ankle holster. Off duty I still use the Alessi sometimes but I also have an OWB and IWB holster from
http://sideguardholsters.com/index.html
Both holsters work quite well and I am getting two more holsters for my S&W Model 66 2 1/2 inch barrel after it makes a trip to Mr. Smith for his package deal.
Greenhead308
11-15-13, 17:52
Even in +P rated J frames I prefer stand pressure for practice.
Same here.
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