View Full Version : PPQ Q's: Split times / Muzzle Flip
OK - I'm considering a Walther PPQ M2 in 9mm. I checked out a 9mm PPQ rental today at a local indoor range and came away very positive except for the muzzle flip.
My question for you guys is on your split times (controlled doubles) with the PPQ compared to a similar sized polymer like Glock. (I know the 9mm Glocks compete well in the gun games.) Is it a big difference or just a perception/training issue on my part.
I'm a long time 1911 shooter and in my younger days was moderately serious about the gun games (IPSC B class). Read: I'm very used to the platform I've shot for decades. I still run a (heavy) 5" 1911 for 3-Gun as my way of getting some trigger time and practice for same, so this is my very limited basis for comparison.
I dont time my shots but i did shoot the PPQ back to back with my Glock 19 and the PPQ was kicking like a mule compared to the G19.
I dont time my shots but i did shoot the PPQ back to back with my Glock 19 and the PPQ was kicking like a mule compared to the G19.
OK, so it wasn't just my imagination then. Guess I'll mull it over some more...may be the 5" PPQ will behave a little better.
theblackknight
02-25-13, 22:16
Split times? Thats gamer stuff that will get you killed in the streets.
Split times? Thats gamer stuff that will get you killed in the streets.
I don't see why - LEO and other professional trainers have taught double taps and such for a very long time. Including revolvers.
Larry Vickers says that the muzzle rise thats experienced by the PPQ is due to faster slide velocity.
Split times? Thats gamer stuff that will get you killed in the streets.
:confused: Split times are useful when comparing individual weaponsn ala wh ich one do I perform better with.
Yeah important for gamers but good to b know if you wsnt to perform well on the "streets"
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
Magic_Salad0892
02-26-13, 05:31
Split times? Thats gamer stuff that will get you killed in the streets.
Didn't we used to hear that about dropping the slide with the slide stop, mag wells, high grips, stippling, extended controls, fiber optic/tritium sights, and pistol mounted red dots?
As far as I know a faster split time never got somebody killed.
I did an informal test a while back between the Glock 19, M&P and the PPQ. I did not write down the split, just the total time.
Read the test here:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=114765
The PPQ has an awesome trigger.
The gun is big and clumsy, the grip is very ergonomic.
It's too big to be a popular CCW gun.
It's too slow to be a game gun.
What do you want to do with it?
It's too big to be a popular CCW gun.
It's too slow to be a game gun.
I disagree on both of these points. The PPQ is almost the exact same size as my Glock 19. I have zero problems with muzzle flip or recoil with the PPQ. I post better times with it than my Glock 19 or M&P. They are not substantially better times but I would not categorize the PPQ as a gun to slow for competitions.
As an occasional gamer myself I've seen a few of the new Walther's in IDPA. When I asked, the owners seemed quite satisfied with them. My observation was that these pistols when gripped right didn't seem to jump anymore than other pistols. I have never shot one. My HK P-30 has a high bore axis but due to the nice grip it doesn't seem any worse than comparable pistols I've used. Only my competition only CZ shoots noticeably flatter.
If the Walther has the great trigger everybody seems to rave about I don't know why one wouldn't consider it.
Fantastic - thanks for this. I also noticed the PPQ's accuracy in my very limited time with the rental gun.
I did an informal test a while back between the Glock 19, M&P and the PPQ. I did not write down the split, just the total time.
Read the test here:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=114765
Here it is, ammo used was 115gr. Winchester white box, shot cold with no warm up. Target was IDPA, set at 7 yds. Started position was gun on target and finger hovering above trigger. Time shown with points down in parenthesis. All guns had stock trigger and action.
First up was the G19 (second generation) with Heinie Straight 8 sights:
1. 1.92 (-1)
2. 2.09 (-1)
3. 1.91 (-1)
4. 1.81 (-3)
5. 1.96 (-2)
6. 2.13 (-4)
Average: 1.97 seconds (-2 pts. down)
After six runs and the points down kept dropping I put the 19 up and switched to the M&P. Stock 2 dots rear and front Ameriglo Hackathorn front sight.
1. 2.00 (-2)
2. 1.98 (0) FINALLY A CLEAN RUN !!!!
3. 2.11 (-2)
4. 1.84 (-3)
5. 2.09 (-1)
6. 2.16 (0)
Average: 2.03 (-1.33 pts. down)
Then finally the PPQ with factory 3 dot sights:
1. 2.65 (0)
2. 2.07 (0)
3. 2.15 (-1)
4. 2.25 (0)
5. 2.04 (0)
I quit after 5 runs.
Average: 2.23 (-0.20 pts. down)
So that was my so unscientific test. It's not mean to be made into some kind of "chart" :) or anything and I didn't even wear a visor. :secret:
The average time was very close between the G19 and the M&P with the PPQ a quarter a second slower. Shooting all three one after another did reveal that the PPQ had a little more muzzle flip. I still feel the M&P had less muzzle flip than the G19.
Even with a pretty rough factory trigger with no feel of reset at all, the M&P yielded better accuracy than the "perfection" G19.
The PPQ was hands down the accuracy champion in this fun test.
I'll continue tomorrow.
I disagree on both of these points. The PPQ is almost the exact same size as my Glock 19. I have zero problems with muzzle flip or recoil with the PPQ. I post better times with it than my Glock 19 or M&P. They are not substantially better times but I would not categorize the PPQ as a gun to slow for competitions.
Yap. Exact same size as 19.
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/839/glock22ppqsidebyside.jpg
I finally got around to a PPQ that's been sitting boxed for a yr or so.
Trigger is excellent in weight, travel & reset. Recoil, a bit faster than glock.
Initial impression, polymer lighter and subjectively not as grippy as a glock. Not bad, different. Maybe will degrease later.
Very ergonomic with the fwd slide cuts, angular slide profile, adjust grip size and modular blackstrap. Fast to reload with trigger guard mag release and thin slick all metal mags.
I think more concealable than a G19, due to the more organic flows. Not a print brick like the glocks.
New favorite pistol for me. Match grade barrel on the way. I was shooting one hole groups at 7&10. No issues. But have an order in for some Jarvis barrels anyway.
The only thing lacking is aftermarket support. In this case I'd like better sight options. Making some when time permits.
I think more concealable than a G19, due to the more organic flows. Not a print brick like the glocks.
I notice this as well. With the grip a little farther farther under the slide, the rear of the butt doesn't stick out as far behind the holster.
If the slide velocity is faster, is that an indication that it's unlocking sooner? If so, would a heavier recoil spring help (and still be reliable)?
I remember when the S&W 945 came out, which was well regarded for having low recoil. This was mostly attributed to longer lock time.
I wouldn't characterize faster as bad. Just a different impulse. In high profiency circles faster is better allowing for quicker tracking... Despite what the populistic über heavy AR buffer crowd thinks.
Gary1911A1
02-26-13, 10:05
I have done Bill Drills with the Glock 19 and PPQ in 9MM. I didn''t have my timer that day, but all I know is my hits were better with the PPQ and that was my first time shooting it.
I wouldn't characterize faster as bad. Just a different impulse. In high profiency circles faster is better allowing for quicker tracking... Despite what the populistic über heavy AR buffer crowd thinks.
I have same observations.
My experience with PPQ was that is cycles faster than G17, flips-up more than G17, but also goes back down on target faster. Actually amount of flip is irrelevant. Fast cycling and good tracking is what is relevant to fast and accurate shooting (that is why for eg. HK P30 or HK45 series are much better than HK USP full size in this regard).
When I was competitively shooting 2011 STI in .40SW, I used recoil spring as low as 9lb (and lightened slide) for faster cycling and better tracking. Went back to 11lb later for more positive feeding (1911 feeding geometry does not like .40SW loaded to CIP specified OAL).
I was seriously considering changing my competition pistol from HK P30L (LEM) into PPQ, but insane amount of money Walther asks here (and level of investment I have in HK oriented gear) scared me off.
New favorite pistol for me. Match grade barrel on the way. I was shooting one hole groups at 7&10. No issues. But have an order in for some Jarvis barrels anyway.
The only thing lacking is aftermarket support. In this case I'd like better sight options. Making some when time permits.
I agree that the aftermarket support is lacking. So far I only have two magazines (came with the gun). There is no source of magazines at this point. I was told by a Walther rep at SHOT that the second generation P99's magazine should fit with a little modification to the feed lip. But still, P99 magazines are rare as well.
Holster issue - The PPQ will fit in a P99 and even an M&P holster.
Interesting to hear that you ordered an aftermarket barrel, even though you said the gun was accurate.
Here is my result with the PPQ as compared to the G19 and M&P:
I fired 3 shot group from each gun at 25 yards, standing, using the head portion of the IDPA target as the aiming zone. You can see the black magic markers writing for the gun type:
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/IMG293.jpeg
Again, the PPQ gave the smallest group. The G19's group was the widest and the M&P was a little bigger than the PPQ. Did somebody say the M&P is inaccurate?
I agree that the aftermarket support is lacking. So far I only have two magazines (came with the gun). There is no source of magazines at this point. I was told by a Walther rep at SHOT that the second generation P99's magazine should fit with a little modification to the feed lip. But still, P99 magazines are rare as well.
Holster issue - The PPQ will fit in a P99 and even an M&P holster.
Interesting to hear that you ordered an aftermarket barrel, even though you said the gun was accurate.
Here is my result with the PPQ as compared to the G19 and M&P:
I fired 3 shot group from each gun at 25 yards, standing, using the head portion of the IDPA target as the aiming zone. You can see the black magic markers writing for the gun type:
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/IMG293.jpeg
Again, the PPQ gave the smallest group. The G19's group was the widest and the M&P was a little bigger than the PPQ. Did somebody say the M&P is inaccurate?
Some aren't and some are..it's random..I had a inaccurate M&P, and can tell you I would'nt even attempt a head shot like that with it at 25yds..It just would'nt hit the target... My PPQ, and P-2000? Sure, I know they're capable, now, the nut behind the trigger? He's questionable...:)
LightningFast
02-26-13, 14:23
Split times? Thats gamer stuff that will get you killed in the streets.
I don't see why - LEO and other professional trainers have taught double taps and such for a very long time. Including revolvers.
Didn't we used to hear that about dropping the slide with the slide stop, mag wells, high grips, stippling, extended controls, fiber optic/tritium sights, and pistol mounted red dots?
As far as I know a faster split time never got somebody killed.
:confused: Split times are useful when comparing individual weaponsn ala wh ich one do I perform better with.
Yeah important for gamers but good to b know if you wsnt to perform well on the "streets"
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
Pretty sure that was sarcasm, fellas.
I've only shot a small number of rounds through my PPQ so far. The recoil is certainly different from that of Glocks and M&Ps, though it did not feel slower. Based on feel alone (not the least bit scientific), I would say the muzzle rises slightly more... but it returns to target so rapidly that the increased climb is a moot point.
Hopefully more real tests will provide the answer you're looking for.
Pretty sure that was sarcasm, fellas.
Based on feel alone (not the least bit scientific), I would say the muzzle rises slightly more... but it returns to target so rapidly that the increased climb is a moot point.
Hopefully more real tests will provide the answer you're looking for.
There seems to be some consensus on this point to one degree or another. And/or some minor loss from muzzle flip being offset by the accuracy component.
GB had one pop up today for a decent buy now price - so I get to figure it out for myself. Thanks for the many excellent responses, (and to theblackknight for stirring thing up).
warpedcamshaft
02-28-13, 03:05
The CSAT 5 and 1 drill is my "go to" drill for speed comparisons.
The drill is set up like this: From the high ready press out and fire 5 rounds into the a zone of an IPSC target followed by one round to the head. Par time is 3 seconds.
This drill allows me to really see how well I can control a handgun...
I can often shoot this drill clean in 1.89 seconds with a Glock 17 or 19. (Grip force adapter equipped)
When I first started with the M&P 9mm, I was slower until I gave it a bit more trigger finger and switched to the large back strap... Then I was hitting the 1.89 to 1.92 mark.
The PPQ has taken a bit of adjustment, however, I can routinely clean the drill with the PPQ in the same 1.89 to 1.95 mark. I had to make some adjustments to get there, but all 3 guns are capable of excellent speed if you put the time in and get them figured out.
Honestly, if you don't have a shot timer... it is almost impossible to really understand your shooting at faster speeds. It is easy to say: "Oh, the recoil feels so different... It is slowing me down so much" However, the numbers don't lie...
Shot timers are a huge training multiplier, and unless you are comparing your shots on a timer between weapons... you may be missing part of the picture.
Honestly, if you don't have a shot timer... it is almost impossible to really understand your shooting at faster speeds. It is easy to say: "Oh, the recoil feels so different... It is slowing me down so much" However, the numbers don't lie...
Shot timers are a huge training multiplier, and unless you are comparing your shots on a timer between weapons... you may be missing part of the picture.
I couldn't agree more. Everyone who is serious about training could benefit by using a shot timer. Great tool.
Here are some reviews and vids of the PPQ . The reviewer seems to be controlling the muzzle flip with no problem.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_QhiTa-7OA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stSSViGh-gY
And here are a few more with him doing a vid/review of the Glock 19.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stSSViGh-gY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tlKjrOi2zo
While hickok's reviews and videos are entertaining and informative, he also appeared to be a decent shooter, there is no quantitative data to represent the performance of any of those pistols. Shooting steel, bottles, water melons, etc. is very entertaining and offer immediate feedback but doesn't have any use to accurately measure certain performance.
The two previous posters referred to the use of the timer. It is a very useful tool and aid to prove a case.
While hickok's reviews and videos are entertaining and informative, he also appeared to be a decent shooter, there is no quantitative data to represent the performance of any of those pistols. Shooting steel, bottles, water melons, etc. is very entertaining and offer immediate feedback but doesn't have any use to accurately measure certain performance.
The two previous posters referred to the use of the timer. It is a very useful tool and aid to prove a case.
I agree. But to me, the vids do show how the the muzzle flip of both pistols can be controlled so it pretty much becomes a non factor, which was the intent.
What is available (that works well) in the holster market for the PPQ?
I'm primarily interested in a kydex (level 0) straight drop belt holster for general range use. Also, I have a HSGI batman belt (for casual 3-Gun) with an RTI setup, so something convertible to that gear could be handy.
Any pics or links are appreciated.
I'm pretty sure the PPQ fits just about any P99 holster. I know for a fact that the Blackhawk Serpa holster for the P99 fits the PPQ perfectly, as I have one and use one with my PPQ M2.
The gun is big and clumsy.
It's too big to be a popular CCW gun.
It's too slow to be a game gun.
Read: You've never actually held a PPQ......as you couldn't be more wrong.
Or, worse, you're a gLoCk fan club member and anything different couldn't be better.
Muzzle flip on a 9mm? Give me a break, if you want muzzle flip shoot one of these will full power loads. We needs some perspective me thinks.
http://hkguns.zenfolio.com/img/s8/v78/p1423643648-5.jpg
What is available (that works well) in the holster market for the PPQ?
I'm primarily interested in a kydex (level 0) straight drop belt holster for general range use. Also, I have a HSGI batman belt (for casual 3-Gun) with an RTI setup, so something convertible to that gear could be handy.
Any pics or links are appreciated.
Any additional insight on holsters? I think Safariland might be an option, but I get nothing but confused when I go to their site. Anyone using a Blade Tech for the PPQ?
I interchange my P30 holster with my PPQ without issue. That may expand your choices a bit.
Edit: I own the first version of the PPQ just to clarify.
The PPQ has an awesome trigger.
The gun is big and clumsy, the grip is very ergonomic.
It's too big to be a popular CCW gun.
It's too slow to be a game gun.
I outshoot all my 19s with it and it carries better IWB than my 19s
I outshoot all my 19s with it and it carries better IWB than my 19s
And you almost sold it after one day :) Glad you kept it?
There are actually a fair number of holsters available for the PPQ. I have a box of holsters specifically for the PPQ and my go-to is the Raven Concealment.
Note, IIRC, the trigger guard of the P99 is different, so P99 holsters may or may not work. I've seen a number of people using P30 holsters, but don't have any first hand experience.
IMO, just buy the Raven. If you can't wait, Kaluban Cloak will probably do the trick. My understanding is you can order a Milt Sparks VersaMax II for he PPQ, of course you won't see it for a while. Some other options off the top of my head: Garrett Industries, Sunrise Leather and I think, UBG.
Check out Walther Forums for a much more comprehensive list. I think it is a stickie.
FWIW, for spare mags I use a Mitch Rosen 5DM double leather carrier made for the P99 which is the same mag as far as the mag carrier is concerned. I've tried a lot of different mag carriers, including the Raven and I think this is more comfortable and concealable.
Oh, and you can get a Blue Gun PPQ if you want to DIY and don't want to use your actual PPQ.
-john
With regard to CCW, I CCW a PPQ a fair amount of the time and I don't find it particularly difficult to conceal.
I find a bit of cant beneficial when carrying around 3:00. In fact, the side of my torso kind of sits right in the depression at the top of the backstrap like it was meant to go there.
I typically carry in the Raven using the default OWB hardware. This conceals very well, although you need to be careful your cover garment is long enough.
The Raven can be configured for IWB but I tend to prefer leather for IWB. At this point I just grab one of my Garrett IWB holsters if cover garment length will be an issue or I need a bit more concealment.
Really, I should order a VM II for this job, but since it will take so long I never seem to get motivated enough to do it.
Oh, I'm about 5'4", around 170lbs and have been carrying for a couple of decades. My other primary CCW is a P2000SK.
-john
The Raven is a consideration, but appears to be more for serious carry than general range use (IPSC/IDPA style). For carry with a full size pistol, I like Sparks' IWB and have three SS-IIs. I'm not really at that point yet though - since the PPQ won't arrive at my FFL dealer until (hopefully) tomorrow. I'll need to shoot it for awhile first.
I have a couple of KyTac OWB holsters that have done fine for many years - I may send Dave an email and see if he can do a PPQ M2. (But the wait time could be long.)
It doesn't sound like there is much in the way of "on the shelf" that fits my needs unless I go with something like the ITAC for quick and dirty.
FWIW, while I was waiting for my first holster for the PPQ, I did a quick DIY Kydex. It isn't overly difficult.
Also:
http://www.waltherforums.com/forum/faq-ppq/20509-concise-ppq-holsters-links-websites.html
http://www.waltherforums.com/forum/faq-ppq/16630-ppq-holsters.html
-john
I agree that the aftermarket support is lacking. So far I only have two magazines (came with the gun). There is no source of magazines at this point. I was told by a Walther rep at SHOT that the second generation P99's magazine should fit with a little modification to the feed lip. But still, P99 magazines are rare as well.
This is what has really kept me from embracing the platform even though it combines some of the best features of all the popular pistols on the market (ergos of a P30, excellent trigger, etc.). How do I justify training on a weapon when I cannot find spare magazines. I mean really, OBL was easier to find compared to spare mags for this pistol.
FWIW, I didn't have any difficulty finding mags until this panic. I've ordered Magnum Research mags both direct and from CMG.
-john
+1 for the Magnum Research mags.
When the teflon-ish black coating starts wearing off the factory Walther mags, they look exactly like the Magnum research mags except for the follower color, Walther marked floor plate, and roll stamp. Function is identical.
And you almost sold it after one day :) Glad you kept it?
No...had to switch to "tv dinners" in order to afford mags:D
Alaskapopo
03-01-13, 20:04
Split times? Thats gamer stuff that will get you killed in the streets.
Split times is just one way to measure speed or rounds on target in a given amount of time. Putting more lead on the bad guy faster will help you on the street.
Pat
I ran my PPQ for the first time today. Almost no factory ammo on hand so I put together what I could from 9mm components that haven't seen the light of day in over a decade. I even had to use Federal Small Rifle primers since that's what I had.
The PPQ's striker had no problem setting off the Federal 205 SRPs, which may be of interest to some.
My initial loads at a reduced charge of Accurate #5 would not cycle the gun (even though they were at the "book starting load". My next batch of 50 at 4.9-5.0 grains would cycle the gun, but not reliably lock back the slide. I had 90 loaded at 5.1 grains (.1 gr under my old BHP load) - the gun ran 100% with these. These are softer shooting than the half box of WWB 115 gr factory loads I had, btw.
After warming up to the gun and getting the rear sight regulated I ran some Bill Drill in the same fashion as Sam reported above (7 Yds / 6 shots / IPSC Target, starting from high ready. (Sam used an IDPA target with smaller A Zone.) I then did the same thing with my 1911 (no warm up). Splits and points down were pretty even with the first shot breaking faster on the 1911. My (1911) brain and the PPQ's trigger will take some time to mesh.
6 Shot Bill Drills / High Ready/ IPSC A Zone / 7 Yds
.45 SS 1911 (FL Tungsten GR)
200 gr SWC Black
167 PF
Time Pts Down
1 1.82 -
2 1.81 -
3 1.58 (2)
4 1.57 (2)
5 1.69 -
Average: 1.69 (0.8)
9mm PPQ
147 gr Master Match FMJ-TC
~135 PF
Time Pts Down
1 1.92 -
2 2.11 -
3 1.89 (2)
4 1.69 -
5 1.51 (2)
Average: 1.82 (0.8)
difference (0.13)
I'm initially impressed considering I have near zero time on striker fired pistols of any kind. My concern about muzzle flip on the PPQ turned out to be a non-issue. Total rounds thru the PPQ were 170ish including a few Speer 124 gr Gold Dot +Ps that were on the snappy side.
POA/POI was about perfect for the +Ps at 10 and 25 Yds. My reloads require holding at the neck line for upper A/B hits at 25 yds. The reloads at 25 Yds were less than minute of IPSC target head shot (from standing), which verified what I've read about the PPQ's accuracy.
BTW my 20rd mags, Walther factory, actually hold 21
Magic_Salad0892
03-03-13, 19:50
BTW my 20rd mags, Walther factory, actually hold 21
Like the HK45 mags that hold 11?
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