View Full Version : Idle lower help
I have a full Daniel Defense SBR with a 9" 300 Blackout barrel. Given the current ammo situation, I haven't been shooting this gun lately. It's basically retired. But I could atleast still use the lower! So I've looked into acquiring a new upper in 223/556. Question is, what barrel length do I want?
I currently own a BCM 11.5" (AAC M42K suppressed) and a S&W 16" carbine.
I'd like to go with a 10.5" LMT upper for the DD lower. I have a Noveske KX3 Pig laying around to use if I go that route. Something tells me to stay away from an NFA upper at this time and go with a tried and true 16". But what's the point? I already run a 16" with the S&W.
Ultimately: KISS. I have a carry handle rear sight, and I want it to be carbine length because I have some plastic hand guards.
Should I shoot for middle ground with a 12.5 or 14.5? Or would a carry handle 10.5" fit my collection better?
Should I just wait to see if the 300 BLK ammo will come back around?
Will it?
Do you think your lower is lonely without it? If you already have other carbines that are fitting the role why bother? I guess if you have money to burn then go for it.
Agree with Iraqgunz. Ultimately you can only shoot one gun at a time. Maybe consider waiting until there is something you really want instead of just buying for the sake of it? YMMV
If I were in your shoes, I would see three choices
1) Build a 20" precision upper. An 18" upper is so similar to 16" in ballistic performance, it'd be redundant
2) Build a dedicated suppressed upper. In all honesty I don't know if it's worth having two SBR uppers, one dedicated to full time suppressed use and one dedicated to non-suppressed used or not
3) Keep the money handy so that if you come on a deal for ammo, you can pounce on it like a fat kid on a Snickers bar. Having all the uppers in the world will do no good without ammo
Option#3 is the most practical
An 20" upper is so similar to 18" in ballistic performance, it'd be redundant. An 18" upper is so similar to 16" in ballistic performance, it'd be redundant.Fixed :D
I say build your next upper OP, all the firearm related buying frenzy helps by jumpstarting the economy...:shout:
Fixed :D
LOL!
But there is a greater difference between the 16" and 20" than there is between the 16" & 18" or 18" & 20".
If matemike had an 18" upper, I would not suggest a 20". Wouldn't suggest a 16" either.
A 16" AR will do about anything you ask it to and it is effective at longer ranges. But I do notice a difference in hold-overs between it and a 20".
Sometimes I think we make too make fuss over the differences in performance and handiness between barrel lengths, but still like that we have choices
Of course. Glad you knew it was tongue in cheek. If they didn't have uses you wouldn't have 24/26" 223 match barrels.
Thank you for the replies.
I resurrect this thread because I've since found more .223/5.56 ammo, but no 300 blackout. And I've started to see more and more .223/5.56 upper receiver assemblies in stock.
Still wondering if I want to go with a spare 10.5" since I have the stamp, or just get a 16" that could one day live on a non-NFA lower. (spares always turn into more guns though)
I do not want to go precision with 18" or 20+" because this will be very KISS. I'm talking carry handle and carbine length plastic hand guards. No $1K scopes or anything like that. (those are on my .308 and 7mm Rem bolt guns)
There's got to be somebody with 3 or 4 plus AR's. What lengths are you running/collecting?
I don't have them all done but this is what I'm working on:
-An SBR with a red dot and irons.
-A 16" with 1-4 powered optic for 3 gun and other use.
-A 20" with a 2.5-10x viper pst or similar for longer range.
That will cover any type of shooting I need to do with a 5.56 without having builds that will never get used. I wouldn't build any more in the same caliber once those were all covered.
In a similar situation as I want to build a second SBR upper I find the current light weight to be near perfect for me with one exception! I would like to have one upper with a dedicated RDS and keep the current with it's ACOG.
It is my belief that the 11.5 in 5.56 still gives more than adequate ballistic performance and portability without compromise.
YMMV
http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x160/308sako/SBR115build.jpg
OP, you could use the money you'd put into another upper to buy a Dillon 650 or Hornady LNL press and start rolling your own 300blk rounds. Just a suggestion.
A 16" AR will do about anything you ask it to and it is effective at longer ranges. But I do notice a difference in hold-overs between it and a 20".
Don't get caught up in barrel length. For practical purposes, a 14.5", 16", 18", 20" are all going to be about the same. Of the options I'd went 16" as it was the shortest I could easily reconfigure and would continue to do so again. Although if you forced me to go longer, it would be 20".
I was hitting 18" steel at 600 this weekend with a 14.5 though using 69gr SMKs and a 10x nightforce. The issue for even the guys shooting 308 gas guns was wind. It's always wind. I don't care if I have to dial or hold elevation to 1.0 vs 1.2 at 300 or 3.0 at 600 those are all just numbers, meaningless, the only factor I care about is did I get the wind call right. For the most part if you're being practical, get the heaviest bullet with the highest BC you can and move along. Barrel length is nothing to get hung up on, get the best deal on any length as it's only a wear item we're talking about and move along.
For the OP.... Identify what role you want another rifle to fill and build around that. No role? No rifle.
morpheus6d9
07-23-13, 19:53
OP, you could use the money you'd put into another upper to buy a Dillon 650 or Hornady LNL press and start rolling your own 300blk rounds. Just a suggestion.
Took the words straight from my mouth
Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 4 Beta
+3 on starting to reload. For the price of another nice upper you could get equipment and supplies to make at least 1K of 300 BLK ammo. JMO...
I don't have them all done but this is what I'm working on:
-An SBR with a red dot and irons.
-A 16" with 1-4 powered optic for 3 gun and other use.
-A 20" with a 2.5-10x viper pst or similar for longer range.
That will cover any type of shooting I need to do with a 5.56 without having builds that will never get used. I wouldn't build any more in the same caliber once those were all covered.
I agree. I have a 16" carbine with an Eotech. My 18" Middie sports a Leupold 2x7 and for longer distances a have a 26" Winchester 25 Super short mag with a Nikon 4x12.
OP, you could use the money you'd put into another upper to buy a Dillon 650 or Hornady LNL press and start rolling your own 300blk rounds. Just a suggestion.
Good call. thanks.
Let's say I get into reloading. What do I need to get started? I looked into the two kits you mentioned above. And I'll be looking, searching, studying over the next several days or weeks now, thanks to you. ;)
I know for me, reloading would not be for the sake of being cheaper, nor trying to dial a super accurate round. I just want the convenience to make my own. Especially my spent .223 cases into 300 blackout and whisper.
But would anyone be so kind to post a list of everything I'd need to start reloading .223, 300 BLK, maybe some .308 and pistol rounds too.
Yes I am a total NOOB at this. In the mean time, I'll be consumed with internet info about the subject.
Thanks to all
Good call. thanks.
Let's say I get into reloading. What do I need to get started? I looked into the two kits you mentioned above. And I'll be looking, searching, studying over the next several days or weeks now, thanks to you. ;)
I know for me, reloading would not be for the sake of being cheaper, nor trying to dial a super accurate round. I just want the convenience to make my own. Especially my spent .223 cases into 300 blackout and whisper.
But would anyone be so kind to post a list of everything I'd need to start reloading .223, 300 BLK, maybe some .308 and pistol rounds too.
Yes I am a total NOOB at this. In the mean time, I'll be consumed with internet info about the subject.
Thanks to all
Try the reloading forum on this site. It has all the info you need.
Glad my suggestion started you down the path to enlightenment :D. Either press will serve you well, probably just a matter of which one you can get your hands on. I've found that the Dillons are readily available for MSRP on GunBroker, and that's probably your best bet as Dillon is claiming 12-16 weeks to turn out orders. Either press can be run without the case feeder and bullet feeder and still churn out 400-500 rounds per hour.
You'll need the following to get started:
-press
-scale
-case trimmer
-dies
-dial calipers (for case measuring and OAL)
-case lube
-shell holders
-case holding trays
-powder measure
-powder trickler
-reloading manual
-case tumbler
-primer pocket tools
-bullets
-primers
-powder
-since you'll be cutting down .223/5.56 cases, a mini chopsaw
I'm sure I'm forgetting something, but just a little research will give you a better idea of what will work best for you. Good luck.
Travelingchild
07-25-13, 06:51
... The only downside of the Dillon is that it uses a proprietary 3 die setup,....
That is incorrect regarding the Dillon 650 xl and Various other Dillon full size machines.
The only Dillon Reloading machine that uses a Proprietary 3 Die set up is the Dillon Square Deal which only reload pistol cartridges. Which makes it irrelevant to what the OP is attempting to Load 300blk.
That is incorrect regarding the Dillon 650 xl and Various other Dillon full size machines.
The only Dillon Reloading machine that uses a Proprietary 3 Die set up is the Dillon Square Deal which only reload pistol cartridges. Which makes it irrelevant to what the OP is attempting to Load 300blk.
Thank you for the correction, you're right.
Glad my suggestion started you down the path to enlightenment :D. Either press will serve you well, probably just a matter of which one you can get your hands on. I've found that the Dillons are readily available for MSRP on GunBroker, and that's probably your best bet as Dillon is claiming 12-16 weeks to turn out orders. The only downside of the Dillon is that it uses a proprietary 3 die setup, and the sets are around $80. Either press can be run without the case feeder and bullet feeder and still churn out 400-500 rounds per hour.
You'll need the following to get started:
-press
-scale
-case trimmer
-dies
-dial calipers (for case measuring and OAL)
-case lube
-shell holders
-case holding trays
-powder measure
-powder trickler
-case tumbler
-reloading manual
-case tumbler
-primer pocket tools
-bullets
-primers
-powder
-since you'll be cutting down .223/5.56 cases, a mini chopsaw
I'm sure I'm forgetting something, but just a little research will give you a better idea of what will work best for you. Good luck.
I would suggest only one case tumbler for starters.:D
I would suggest only on case tumbler for starters.:D
Fixed and fixed. Thanks.
morpheus6d9
07-26-13, 12:20
this thread will help you on your journey
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_42/385765_300_Blackout_Master_Thread.html
Thanks again for all the replies and help.
I've been looking like I said I would, and I'm leaning towards a single stage press. Not wanting to jump straight into progressive because I'm using the theory "you must crawl before you can walk." I didn't start shooting a $6000 Noveske AR 10 at the age of 8. No, I started shooting bb guns and 22's. So a single stage is what I think it ought to be for me looking into reloading. I want to pay very close attention to every part of the processes that happens in the press; depriming, resizing, crimping, etc. Especially since I'll be using brass that's been cut down to a whole new different size and necked down again.
I've scoped out the press, 300 blackout two die set, and the odds and ends for working with and cleaning, deburring the brass. All being RCBS products. If I make several thousand rounds a year, I should be good with RCBS from I've read in all the reviews.
Now for a techincal question that I cannot find so easily: Can anyone tell me if Norma 203-B powder would work for 300 blackout? Maybe even subs? I found load data for it in .223 and .308. It's replicated Reloader 15 and Hodgdon 380 powder. Just wondering if I could use it because I've found plenty of it available, considering the 16 week wait times. R-7, H110, and AA1680 are non existent these days.
Rigpig's list is very good, and quite comprehensive. It is a good idea to start out with a single stage press before a progressive. If you don't know what you are doing, a progressive allows you to turn out alot of bad out of spec ammo.
If you need to save money and aren't doing huge volumes immediately, there are many ways to save a couple bucks. A powder measure is not required if you are willing to trickle your charges, and actually works better for hard to meter stick powders. Also, you can do without a case tumbler, there are other ways to clean cases. I have also reloaded minimally cleaned cases as well with no ill effects (many would argue this would ruin dies, scratch cases, etc but I have never observed this, as long as the dirt is powder residue).
Items not to skimp on are your scale, dies, calipers, or trimmer. These are essential for producing concentric ammo, with a consistent OAL and identical powder charge.
In terms of powder, something with a burn rate like that of RL-15 is too slow for the 300 BLK. Other alternatives to RL-7 or H110 are Alliant 300 MP, IMR 4227, Accurate 5744, or Lil'gun. Lil'gun is actually a very good choice as it meters very well, burns cleanly, and is quite accurate. In addition, it can be used for both super and subsonic loads. For subs, you can also use powders like H4198.
Travelingchild
07-28-13, 06:19
It is a good idea to start out with a single stage press before a progressive. If you don't know what you are doing, a progressive allows you to turn out alot of bad out of spec ammo.
I'm going to be the odd man out here, It doesn't matter what press or equipment a reloader uses, single stage, progressive, auto index etc. If you don't know what you're doing any press can turn out alot of bad ammo.
To the OP get a Dillon 550 treat as a single stage till you learn and never look back,
Hop over to the reloading section and check out the threads there.
To the OP get a Dillon 550 treat as a single stage till you learn and never look back,
Hop over to the reloading section and check out the threads there.
This is good advice. I see no point in starting with a single stage if you've got the money and time to learn on a progressive. You'll grow out of that single stage in about an hour. It's always necessary when working up a new load to make a small sample of 3 or 5 and measure them for OAL, and then take them out and shoot them before you load hundreds of rounds. If you shoot much at all, that single stage will not meet your needs.
This is good advice. I see no point in starting with a single stage if you've got the money and time to learn on a progressive. You'll grow out of that single stage in about an hour. It's always necessary when working up a new load to make a small sample of 3 or 5 and measure them for OAL, and then take them out and shoot them before you load hundreds of rounds. If you shoot much at all, that single stage will not meet your needs.
I disagree. I have used a Rockchucker for years. I shoot hundreds of rounds a week. It meets my needs and I would recommend it for any beginning reloader.
In terms of powder, something with a burn rate like that of RL-15 is too slow for the 300 BLK. Other alternatives to RL-7 or H110 are Alliant 300 MP, IMR 4227, Accurate 5744, or Lil'gun. Lil'gun is actually a very good choice as it meters very well, burns cleanly, and is quite accurate. In addition, it can be used for both super and subsonic loads. For subs, you can also use powders like H4198.
I appreciate that. This is where my learning curve is taking a definate dive. The more I read the more cross eyed I get with all the numbers and absolutely zero experience. I'm getting a little better and less lost though.
My dad reloads for 338/378 weatherby and 7mm ultra mag. He's come up with some fantastic loads too. I forsee some long conversations with him once I get home. He may not be able to give me great advice on 300 BLK, .223 or especially subsonic loads, but I know he'll have a lot info about powders and what their numbers mean.
Travelingchild
07-28-13, 21:39
... It meets my needs and I would recommend it for any beginning reloader.
Then we agree to disagree..
Not to high jack the thread but a friend tried to convince me to ditch my 650 and process/load all my 223 brass on a single stage
I told him, Your out your F$%&( mind..his rational it worked for him. Well I've got over 10 thousand pieces of brass to do. that would require changing the dies on a single stage press, 1.decap/size,2. trim,etc.3. prime, 4.powder charge.5.bullet/seat. 6. crimp if applicable & whatever else necessary for 300blk
To the OP that means I would handle each and every cartridge (10thousand)around 6 times...
Get what works for YOU and the volume of shooting you intend to do.
Wormydog1724
07-28-13, 21:42
Dedicated .22LR upper would be my choice.
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