View Full Version : Has the new crop of .308 gas guns killed the 5.56 SPR?
Like the title asks, have the new .308 gas guns killed the SPR in 5.56? With the new crop of extremely accurate and RELIABLE .308's it almost seems like a no brainer.
Personally, I haven't pulled my 18" 5.56 SPR setup since I started shooting .308 on a regular basis. If I am going to be shooting from 400-600+ it just seems like the right choice and the cost is almost the same as 69gr or 77gr SMK's.
Generally when I am shooting at distance I am shooting off the deck, so weight is a non factor and if it was my SCAR 17 is as light as its 5.56 SPR counterpart. I also generally run 20 rounders with my SPR so capacity is also the same.
Just curious what others thought or if they had found themselves grabbing .308's more than in the past.
RearwardAssist
02-27-13, 13:14
I know that I was planning on putting togther a 5.56 spr, and ditched the plan and picked up an 308-ar.
I doubt it has "killed" it, however, I just picked up a 308 instead of another 5.56. I'm finding ammo for it pretty easily also. I don't plan on stocking as much 7.62 as I do 5.56 since I don't plan on shooting it as much.
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I had my eye on an SPR but ended up ordering a Larue 308 in 16" instead. I think it is a wise choice, if I can ever get one.
It's a only a no brainier if your using a 16" .308 kitted perfectly out for precision/LR shooting....that way you have a rifle truly compact/light enough to compete with the much more nimble 5.56 LP rifles.
Even at 18", .308 ARs become much more static...and therefore simply can't replicate the SPR program rifle's portability requirements. While you do indeed get more range with a 18" .308 over a 18" 5.56....you start paying the full premium for that added range at any length over 16".
More of my opinion on this subject can be found in another thread that might interest you.
Perfecting the Recce concept: The case for .308/7.62 (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=104468)
Having shot my SPR, and Recce alongside my MWS on close to maybe a dozen occasions, I can say for certain that no rifle will ever replace a 5.56 SPR/Recce in my stable. A .308 is so much more taxing on the shooter as well, my SPR puts me to sleep while shooting behind it prone.
SPR vs. MWS
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC03660-1.jpg
So three out of the first three posters who were considering a 5.56 SPRish builds, have all scrapped 5.56 in favor of .308. Interesting.
What was it that made all three of you to choose .308, instead of 5.56, or any of the other calibers available in todays market?
What was it about the current market of .308's that made you confident that you would get a rifle that was accurate enough for precision work, but also rock solid reliable / dependable?
What is different about todays guns vs the .308 Battle Rifles of the past.
ChrisCross
02-27-13, 15:49
I'm going to let things settle down price-wise but I had been eying a .308 as my next purchase instead of a 5.56. I must admit to being a slight caliber snob... if a 9mm/5.56 will get it done a .45/3.08 will get it done with style.:D
So three out of the first three posters who were considering a 5.56 SPRish builds, have all scrapped 5.56 in favor of .308. Interesting.
What was it that made all three of you to choose .308, instead of 5.56, or any of the other calibers available in todays market?
What was it about the current market of .308's that made you confident that you would get a rifle that was accurate enough for precision work, but also rock solid reliable / dependable?
What is different about todays guns vs the .308 Battle Rifles of the past.
Actually I haven't scrapped that idea of a 5.56, I just postponed it. I had always wanted a 308 for LR shooting & deer hunting, it just wasn't real high on my priority list. Then with the current situation, I couldn't get parts; so when a 308 became available, I jumped on it. I'm not sure how accurate or reliable it yet. I've only ran a couple of mags through it just to make sure it cycles properly.
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Failure2Stop
02-27-13, 17:15
To me it comes down to performance at distance.
No 5.56 is giving you much at distances past 300 meters, and I would prefer to keep everything inside 200 meters with 5.56, especially as barrel lengths drop below 16".
Absolutely, if something is out in the open, with decent ammo and a GI quality (or better) barrel, if you stick a bullet where it matters, you are going to get effect on target. However, replace that 5.56 round with a 7.62 and you are probably going to get better result, especially if there are barriers. The reduced wind effect of 7.62 and higher ballistic coefficients make it easier to predict flight path at longer ranges.
I have stretched 5.56 out to stupid distances, but not out of choice or preference for that performance envelope.
At this point in time I have little interest in 5.56 guns with barrels longer than 16" or with 7.62 guns that aren't semi-auto.
The whole point of the AR (to me) is a compact, light, nimble weapon that overcomes cartridge inadequacy with the ability to deliver multiple rapid shots and modularity to be tailored to purpose.
mastiffhound
02-27-13, 18:19
As stated above it's a question of distance. I live in the country but the range I could shoot is 300 yards or less. I thought hard about a .308 but settled on building a 20" barreled 5.56 rifle. I couldn't justify to myself the need for a .308. That is not saying I don't want or will not get one. 77 grain HP rounds are good for any of my shooting and I will frequently load 69 and even 55 grain for the ranges I shoot at. I know a 20" isn't technically a SPR but I also couldn't justify the 2 inch shorter barrel. I'll take all the velocity I can get.
I have a carbine for up close work anyways. I could even carry the carbine upper as opposed to both AR's if trouble came to my doorstep, however unlikely that may be. We do have black bear and mountain lions have even been sighted around my parts. By the way, I do need a 30 round magazine, taking a chance with a bear or mountain lion is something I don't care to do. At some point I will get a .308 but for now I can't afford it, nor could I find the ammo or reloading components to feed it.
The 18" barrel was never optimal and was merely a compromise between the two organizations that wanted a precision 5.56 mm rifle--one requesting a 16" and the other a 20".
The phenomenal 5.56 handguard options of the last year or so have yet to move to 308 guns. Would be nice to see.
At this point in time I have little interest in 5.56 guns with barrels longer than 16" or with 7.62 guns that aren't semi-auto.Couldn't agree more. A part of me thinks 14.5 5.56 would actually be King if not for NFA. As it stands 16" barrel options are better IMO, it's hard to find 14.5 in profiles other than LW.
16" is quite a good length in 5.56 mm from a terminal ballistics perspective; it is my preferred 5.56 mm length unless running a carbine with a dedicated suppressor.
Thanks Doc. Even with the modern loadings, the velocity differential is probably more than I realize. Will keep in mind, take care.
I went the AR because I know the platform so well. Pmags are cheap and plentiful. .308 is really hard hitting. The current stock of rifles are hybrid precision and battle rifle. Great reports on reliability and dependability. If I need barrier penetration, .308. If I want a harder hitting mid-to-long range, .308.
Plenty of optic options that can serve for close up CBQ type or mid-range battle accurate.
I am hoping the familiarity of the platform gets me more .308 trigger time than my bolt, which I rarely use despite my nice setup.
Failure2Stop
02-27-13, 21:58
The phenomenal 5.56 handguard options of the last year or so have yet to move to 308 guns. Would be nice to see.
Check out the URX 3.1
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I know I've finally decided to take the 308 plunge. One reason is because I have been using SR-25's for a couple of years now and trust them, the other reason is simple: "windshields".
Pmags are cheap and plentiful.
Assuming you're talking about 308 Pmags? Where are they cheap & plentiful? I'm looking for a couple of spares & can't find any.
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After using my LMT MWS, I won't invest the money into a 5.56 SPR, there is no point for me in having one. The MWS does everything I need.
Assuming you're talking about 308 Pmags? Where are they cheap & plentiful? I'm looking for a couple of spares & can't find any.
I back-ordered them from DSG. They are the only company I have found that allows it.
I doubt there's any in stock anywhere at normal prices.
I doubt there's any in stock anywhere at normal prices.
Exactly! That's why I was a little shocked to hear someone say they're "cheap & plentiful".
Thanks for the tip on DSG
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Pappabear sold off his .308 MWS because the 77 grain SMKs were just as easy to score hits on in an AR as the .308.
There's no way I'd go the .308 route.
.308 has obviously better barrier penetration but beyond that I'm not seeing the benefit for most shooters. Sure the 77gr cost nearly as much as .308 rounds but you don't always have to shoot expensive ammo like that. With a 20" 5.56 SPR you can get similar range that a .308 will get just with less impressive terminal effects but you have the added benefit of follow up shots, plentiful parts and mags, all your parts/accessories backwards compatible with your carbine, significantly cheaper ammo if you choose, etc.
Regardless of the 5.56 or .308 round, a headshot at any distance will be devastating.
edit: Also most .308 AR's seem to have a 16" barrel which really bottlenecks the round, IMO.
This is an interesting discussion, and one that I've thought over for quite a while when I was considering getting into the .308 AR game. As you guys already know, there will obviously be some overlap in capability with the two options, but as always the mission drives the gear. However, I'll let this post by Kyle Defoor do the talking. I'll post in it's entirety, but the bolded part is the most applicable to this discussion:
The original whatever you want to call them- Recces, SPRs, MK 12s (we usually just say "sniper M4") had a 16" barrel, Leupold 2.5-10 and a PRI foregrip. They were first used operationally in '93 in Somalia by our guys that were attached to our Southern brethren.
It went to 18" quite frankly because the big Army got involved. Most of us that have a lot of time on one (myself included) think that 16" is better for a number of reasons;
1. 2" does make a difference especially with a can.
2. weight (it's not pounds at this stage it's ounces) and remember that balance has a factor here too.
3. I've shot both together on the same range at the same time. I don't really care what charts and scientists say, me and mine can hit just as good with 16" as 18".
Slight digression- I think most experienced guys will also agree that 24-26" is too long for the 700 as well. 20-22" is fine for what distances most will use it for.
The MK12 is ok as it comes, but, me and majority of the guys that were around me immediatley shitcanned the fixed stock. Some would go with a Geisselle trigger too, and some would put a tube rail back on. All of these little touches were done in house at the shooters home team.
As has been pointed out 5.56 does fine in moderate wind out pretty far. There are an assload of guys both Army and Navy that have slayed passed 600 repeatedly.
For pickin and choosin I tell guys the rules of 4 for caliber;
400 and closer- 5.56 all day
400-800 - 7.62
800-1200- 300 WM
1200-1600 - 338 Lapua
I said a few years ago that bolt action sniper guns would become obseolete at close and moderate distances. I got laughed at. Well, a good friend of mine who I shot with during 2 courses this year and his shooting partner just won the International Sniper Competition at Benning with Larue OBRs.
There's no reason to not have a mag fed snipe gun anymore for 90% of the shooters out there. The manufacturers have simply done too good a job to not use them. On that note, there is already a 7.62 mag fed that has a 12" barrel and will hold 1 MOA to 300 no problem.;)
Good thread guys!
Respect,
KD
I don't have real world experience in some shithole country, but after hunting this year with a 16" 5.56 and taking game out to 285yds with a headshot (which was really just a chip shot for 5.56 IMO), I am FULLY convinced of the above. For MY "needs", 5.56 fullfills them. .308 would as well, but where I would gain some in some areas, I would still lose some in others when compared to 5.56.
Failure2Stop
02-28-13, 08:04
Pappabear sold off his .308 MWS because the 77 grain SMKs were just as easy to score hits on in an AR as the .308.
I think this kinda underpins the discussion.
If your distance envelope is inside 600m and performance criteria is "hit steel", then you aren't gaining much by going to a 7.62.
There's no way I'd go the .308 route.
I remember when you were saying the same thing about red dots and FrogLube.
I think this kinda underpins the discussion.
If your distance envelope is inside 600m and performance criteria is "hit steel", then you aren't gaining much by going to a 7.62.
Absolutely. I almost included that factor... in that we, as civilians don't need to kill at those distances... but then I got to thinking about our governmental tyranny... and thought... maybe we will need that ability some time. :(
I remember when you were saying the same thing about red dots and FrogLube.
Oh I'm all over the .308.... just in bolt gun. Gas gun is just too much ham hock to lug around.
Oh I'm all over the .308.... just in bolt gun. Gas gun is just too much ham hock to lug around.
Not having to work a bolt 19 times in a row is a game-changer as far as being able to stay in the scope and applying the fundamentals under stress.
We don't have or want 308 bolt guns; they offer no advantage over the SR-25, especially in an urban environment.
Oh I'm all over the .308.... just in bolt gun. Gas gun is just too much ham hock to lug around.
See KD's post that I quoted above about gas gun .308s. It's right below the bolded portion. I would take a 16" .308 AR over any .308 bolt gun any day of the week if we're talking about defensive/offensive use.
Not having to work a bolt 19 times in a row is a game-changer as far as being able to stay in the scope and applying the fundamentals under stress.
We don't have or want 308 bolt guns; they offer no advantage over the SR-25, especially in an urban environment.
Agreed. We've lived all of the platforms in practice. The MWS was friggin nice, no doubt. And if we were really shooting at bad guys. Hell yes, I'd grab that sucker.
But the 5.56 is just as easy to get hits inside of 800 when you dope it out. Really though... there's nothing better than hammering a 500 yard shot with the 300 Win Mag. :)
See KD's post that I quoted above about gas gun .308s. It's right below the bolded portion. I would take a 16" .308 AR over any .308 bolt gun any day of the week if we're talking about defensive/offensive use.
Me too! I don't disagree. The MWS with a 16" would hit to a thowie with 175 SMKs.
I agree with everyone's points... just cheaper and easier to run a 5.56 SPRish rig. Especially when we're running 77 SMKs across the board included SBR guns.
Hum, I was about to buy a N6 or dig real deep for a deal I had worked out with KevinB for a rifle, when the NYS Ban spiked me. For the civilian and even LE shooting community, and the CURRENT .mil fight, I think a good 7.62mm gas gun is a good way to go.
On a platoon level assest, I'm a big fan of 16" 7.62mm rifles, but at squad level I'm still opposed. Of course, as stated before, I'm a fat old retiree so my opnion isn't worth the time it took to type it either.
After using my LMT MWS, I won't invest the money into a 5.56 SPR, there is no point for me in having one. The MWS does everything I need.
Yeah +1 on this. I've had a hard time tinkering with anything else since I got mine.
Now don't get me wrong, I've carried the Mk12, and I love its particular combination of strengths for the job its supposed to do. But with crop of (relatively) lightweight and hyper performing semi-auto .308s, I have a hard time justifying a combat need for something like an SPR. (Especially considering what was mentioned above: windshields.....and other light barriers.) And combat needs are the mother of invention in the AR FOW. I don't see the SPR taking a role in the future other than benchrest or toy. My .02
Threads such as this one are the reason I keep coming back to M4C.net.
Thanks for an enlightening discussion, gentlemen.
I have no real experience to back my thoughts on this, but I have felt the same way about bolt .308s practically becoming obsolete with the advent of current generation AR-10 platforms. It just makes sense when the semi gun can do everything the bolt gun can with only a (relatively insignificant) disparity in accuracy for real world use.
Conversely, being relatively new to this realm of firearms, I had never understood why the SPR even existed in the first place when there are perfectly good SR-25s, OBRs, MWSs, etc. But I can see that they do fill a niche for some shooters.
But really, thanks for this thread. I am less ignorant because of it. I mean, shit, on most other forums people have discussions about how cute their shade of FDE looks on their lower or something inane like that.
Yeah... No question that the big 308 gas gun is bad ass. But I think the 5.56 is often underestimated for reaching out and hitting something.
I posted a thread similar to this one about 3 or 4 months ago and basically decided that as a civilian, the 5.56 DMR/Recce type carbine was more useful to me than a .308, especially when considering the cost of the base gun, ammo, and spare parts. Not fighting in a military force, its probably best for me to avoid long-range contact. If PRECISION is required, the Recce gets the job done out to about 400-600 depending upon who you ask. After that, if I need to shoot something that far away, I'd want something bigger than a .308, and my eventual plan is to grab a .338 bolt gun.
As soon as I got my MWS I sold off my 18" SPR and 16" SS Recon. I can deal with the small amount of extra weight as a trade off for the longer range, stability in the heavier round, and the vastly better barrier performance.
When I did the math on the ammo (its costs me the same to get 77gr SMK as it does 168/175 FGMM) it was an absolute no brainer for me.
I can deal with the small amount of extra weight .
There was nothing small about the extra weight on the MWS that we were shootin... but I liked that. It made the gun nicer to be behind and faster to shoot.
Failure2Stop
02-28-13, 14:40
Conversely, being relatively new to this realm of firearms, I had never understood why the SPR even existed in the first place when there are perfectly good SR-25s, OBRs, MWSs, etc. But I can see that they do fill a niche for some shooters.
One significant driving factor at the time was that 7.62 gas guns were not performing like they are now.
As it is, for as much of a benefit as the 7.62 semi-auto are, it comes at a cost.
There ain't no free lunch.
As it is, for as much of a benefit as the 7.62 semi-auto are, it comes at a cost.
There ain't no free lunch.
That cost is dollars and tons. :p That wonderfully reliable and accurate MWS wasn't cheap. And there wasnt any doubt which gun you picked up when you grabbed that rifle case. :eek:
.46caliber
02-28-13, 14:52
The phenomenal 5.56 handguard options of the last year or so have yet to move to 308 guns. Would be nice to see.
Here is another option. Just came out.
http://megaarms.com/maten/upper-receiver/mkm-maten-keymod/
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Coming from the long range competition world, I see more semis showing up at matches, but not in the numbers some might expect based on forum discussions on this site and others like it. Shooting relatively large targets at medium distances and from stable positions isn't really a problem with the modern .308 platform gas guns. If we're limiting our topic strictly to those parameters, then I'd argue that the .308 platform gas gun has huge advantages over bolt guns and 5.56 SPR type rifles.
Where I see gas guns being deficient in a precision role (be it in competition or "real world" use) is when you're shooting at smaller targets from an unstable position. This may be a stage in a match where you shoot from a position other than prone, or off a barricade, or off some improvised rest. In the "real world" I could see this being the case when taking shots from such positions at something like an opponent partially behind cover or any situation where the target area is small. Bolt guns in this case afford you a larger margin of error in your form, the gas gun is less forgiving.
In the original context of the thread I think a properly set up gas gun in the .308 platform really suffers no deficiencies against a similar 5.56 gun in a medium precision role. Compared to bolt guns in a similar role, it's not as simple.
Coming from the long range competition world, I see more semis showing up at matches, but not in the numbers some might expect based on forum discussions on this site and others like it. Shooting relatively large targets at medium distances and from stable positions isn't really a problem with the modern .308 platform gas guns. If we're limiting our topic strictly to those parameters, then I'd argue that the .308 platform gas gun has huge advantages over bolt guns and 5.56 SPR type rifles.
Where I see gas guns being deficient in a precision role (be it in competition or "real world" use) is when you're shooting at smaller targets from an unstable position. This may be a stage in a match where you shoot from a position other than prone, or off a barricade, or off some improvised rest. In the "real world" I could see this being the case when taking shots from such positions at something like an opponent partially behind cover or any situation where the target area is small. Bolt guns in this case afford you a larger margin of error in your form, the gas gun is less forgiving.
In the original context of the thread I think a properly set up gas gun in the .308 platform really suffers no deficiencies against a similar 5.56 gun in a medium precision role. Compared to bolt guns in a similar role, it's not as simple.
I have to ask, what is the actual disparity in accuracy between the proven bolt guns and the cutting edge SLRs?
My educated guess is/was that they were relatively close to the point where the difference was marginal and insignificant. I could be wrong, so this is why I ask.
I actually became interested in .308 ARs ever since I realized that I was most likely never going to own an SVD Dragunov, and so that the next best thing for me was an L129A1 clone. :jester: Truth be told, the more I am learning about them, the more I like them. Just like the assault rifle was the bridging of submachine guns and full size rifles, these new AR-10s are like the bridging of battle rifles and sniper rifles!
Failure2Stop
02-28-13, 19:14
Coming from the long range competition world, I see more semis showing up at matches, but not in the numbers some might expect based on forum discussions on this site and others like it. Shooting relatively large targets at medium distances and from stable positions isn't really a problem with the modern .308 platform gas guns. If we're limiting our topic strictly to those parameters, then I'd argue that the .308 platform gas gun has huge advantages over bolt guns and 5.56 SPR type rifles.
Where I see gas guns being deficient in a precision role (be it in competition or "real world" use) is when you're shooting at smaller targets from an unstable position. This may be a stage in a match where you shoot from a position other than prone, or off a barricade, or off some improvised rest. In the "real world" I could see this being the case when taking shots from such positions at something like an opponent partially behind cover or any situation where the target area is small. Bolt guns in this case afford you a larger margin of error in your form, the gas gun is less forgiving.
I would say it comes down to your definition of "large targets" and "medium distances". The purpose of the firearm is the defining element.
In my experience the actual performance difference between a 1 MOA gun and a 1/2 MOA gun isn't realized until distances exceed the performance envelope of 7.62. There are, of course, a few super-dialed in shooters that can call wind, estimate range with dead-on precision, know environmental changes, and can make the minute adjustments necessary to guarantee a hit on such small targets that a 1/4 MOA gun is necessary to achieve the required precision, but I don't meet too many of them.
Once you are knocking on or surpassing a grand, you should really be using a more emphatic cartridge. Practically speaking, 7.62 is an 800 meter cartridge, regardless of what your pushing it out of. Much like the 5.56 argument, while you can hit at 1k, you shouldn't be pinning lives to it.
I will never prefer a less precise gun unless dependability or applicable fire rate is the compromise, and even then there is an expectation of performance that I will not be willing to lower.
I have to ask, what is the actual disparity in accuracy between the proven bolt guns and the cutting edge SLRs?
My educated guess is/was that they were relatively close to the point where the difference was marginal and insignificant. I could be wrong, so this is why I ask.
I actually became interested in .308 ARs ever since I realized that I was most likely never going to own an SVD Dragunov, and so that the next best thing for me was an L129A1 clone. :jester: Truth be told, the more I am learning about them, the more I like them. Just like the assault rifle was the bridging of submachine guns and full size rifles, these new AR-10s are like the bridging of battle rifles and sniper rifles!
I think if you're clamping the rifle down into a vise and shooting for groups with a quality bolt gun (not some crazy benchrest gun) vs. a quality precision gas gun the difference in group size will be minimal, if anything. It's proven time and time again that the gas guns shoot very well. Where I've seen the differences come into play both with myself and with others is when you're shooting each gun from improvised positions. The bolt guns in that case are more forgiving of less-than-perfect form.
I would say it comes down to your definition of "large targets" and "medium distances". The purpose of the firearm is the defining element.
In my experience the actual performance difference between a 1 MOA gun and a 1/2 MOA gun isn't realized until distances exceed the performance envelope of 7.62. There are, of course, a few super-dialed in shooters that can call wind, estimate range with dead-on precision, know environmental changes, and can make the minute adjustments necessary to guarantee a hit on such small targets that a 1/4 MOA gun is necessary to achieve the required precision, but I don't meet too many of them.
Once you are knocking on or surpassing a grand, you should really be using a more emphatic cartridge. Practically speaking, 7.62 is an 800 meter cartridge, regardless of what your pushing it out of. Much like the 5.56 argument, while you can hit at 1k, you shouldn't be pinning lives to it.
I will never prefer a less precise gun unless dependability or applicable fire rate is the compromise, and even then there is an expectation of performance that I will not be willing to lower.
I hope my response above kind of answers this. It's not that the newer high quality gas guns are less mechanically accurate, it's that the bolt guns are easier to shoot in a wider array of situations. As for comparing AR15 platform guns to the larger AR10 type (including DPMS/KAC style) I have found from shooting precision type rifles in both platforms that if they're both set up properly I don't see a huge difference in "shootability." With proper component selection either are a fine choice for a precision application inside their intended ranges, and only lose out to bolt guns in specific situations.
Failure2Stop
03-01-13, 09:55
Where I've seen the differences come into play both with myself and with others is when you're shooting each gun from improvised positions. The bolt guns in that case are more forgiving of less-than-perfect form.
I find the opposite to be true.
The tubular handguard of modern semi-auto guns makes shooting through ports and off barricades much easier than with any bolt gun setup I have used (other than the XM2010), and the weight and length of the heavier dedicated precision guns makes improvised and non-traditional positions less adaptable.
Now, if you are talking about wobble zone/aim error acceptance, I go back to my original opinion that it takes a truly exceptional shooter to realize the difference between a 1 MOA gun and a .5 MOA gun, and even that is an illustration of a wider divergence in precision capability than commonly encountered.
Then again, I am talking in reference to a precision 16" semi-auto guns. If you are comparing the "battle rifle" types (Mk17, S&W M&P10, etc), then I would tend to agree with you more readily as the 2+ MOA guns are easily outclassed by a 1/2 MOA gun in the hands of someone that knows what he can get away with.
The tubular handguard of modern semi-auto guns makes shooting through ports and off barricades much easier than with any bolt gun setup I have used (other than the XM2010),
I shoot 'tactical' style bolt gun matches that include such things, and have gone to a bolt gun chassis with.... a tubular handguard (XLR). I do find it an improvement over a traditional stock for both traditional and non-traditional non-prone positions. I also appreciate the bipod being closer to the bore line for prone (more stable).
That said, definitely appreciate the fast lock time and single impulse of the bolt gun for getting off an accurate shot and seeing the result (the later for making corrections).
sinlessorrow
03-01-13, 11:50
I find the opposite to be true.
The tubular handguard of modern semi-auto guns makes shooting through ports and off barricades much easier than with any bolt gun setup I have used (other than the XM2010), and the weight and length of the heavier dedicated precision guns makes improvised and non-traditional positions less adaptable.
Now, if you are talking about wobble zone/aim error acceptance, I go back to my original opinion that it takes a truly exceptional shooter to realize the difference between a 1 MOA gun and a .5 MOA gun, and even that is an illustration of a wider divergence in precision capability than commonly encountered.
Then again, I am talking in reference to a precision 16" semi-auto guns. If you are comparing the "battle rifle" types (Mk17, S&W M&P10, etc), then I would tend to agree with you more readily as the 2+ MOA guns are easily outclassed by a 1/2 MOA gun in the hands of someone that knows what he can get away with.
I think a good example is the LMT L129A1 that was pulling 1" groups at 600M.
I honestly feel a 5.56 SPR is a thing if the past with semi auto .308's of today.
I think a good example is the LMT L129A1 that was pulling 1" groups at 600M.
I honestly feel a 5.56 SPR is a thing if the past with semi auto .308's of today.
I think that is an anomaly and one should not expect that type of accuracy out of, well, damn near anything... The best I have done with a 16" MWS at 600 yds was 4.61" with 175gr GMM and most fell in the 5+" mark. I was able to get 3.17" and 3.42" at 600 with my 18" OBR using 168gr GMM. Those groups were all 5 shot groups under ideal conditions.
I was very pleased with those results, but I'm also admittedly not a great precision shooter and still have a lot to learn. I'm hoping this year will afford me the time to do several long range classes and get more consistent in my long range shooting.
Yea, I sold my MWS. And I even recently built what I was calling an SPR Light. I have the classic 18 inch WOA SPR. I love that sucker. But felt like building a 16 ' Noveske recon, geissele Mk1 rail and a CTR Stock with larue riser and A5.
Just added the riser. Mark and I will snap some picks and post the SPR Light. Irqaq gunz shit his pants when I told him I sold it. He liked the MWS platform as well.
I don't think the 308 gas replaces the SPR due to weight and weight & ability to carry massive rounds of 5.56. For me it would be ability to carry mags and mags of 5.56 being a key advantage of 5.56.
SPR's will always have a place in my opinion. Maybe the SPR LIGHT:D. But I believe they are here to stay. I needed the cash and space in my safe. It brought a pretty penny. I may try a Scar or KAC gun one day.
I do have immense appreciation for what the MWS brings to the table in battle. As I do the 308/ 300WM bolt guns. All very cool weapons that our boys in uniform will favor for for one reason or another for many years to come.
SPR LIGHT, YEA I LIKE IT;)
Failure2Stop
03-01-13, 17:18
I don't think the 308 gas replaces the SPR due to weight and weight & ability to carry massive rounds of 5.56. For me it would be ability to carry mags and mags of 5.56 being a key advantage of 5.56.
I predict a shift in weight shortly where one will be able to have a 16" 7.62 precision* rifle that weighs less than a 16" 416.
I say "precision" as at such a light weight it is obviously not primarily designed as a sniper platform, though it will have the requisite precision to handle threats out to 800 meters.
sinlessorrow
03-01-13, 17:25
I predict a shift in weight shortly where one will be able to have a 16" 7.62 precision* rifle that weighs less than a 16" 416.
I say "precision" as at such a light weight it is obviously not primarily designed as a sniper platform, though it will have the requisite precision to handle threats out to 800 meters.
Well the 16.5" 416 weighs 7.88lbs dry, about 8.8lbs loaded. the LMT 308MWS weighs 9.9lbs dry so we are very close to that day.
Magic_Salad0892
03-01-13, 18:24
Well the 16.5" 416 weighs 7.88lbs dry, about 8.8lbs loaded. the LMT 308MWS weighs 9.9lbs dry so we are very close to that day.
KAC M110K1 is 8.97 lbs.
I think we're already there.
sinlessorrow
03-01-13, 18:31
KAC M110K1 is 8.97 lbs.
I think we're already there.
You are correct, I was not sure what the weight of KAC rifles were.
I would say it comes down to your definition of "large targets" and "medium distances". The purpose of the firearm is the defining element.
In my experience the actual performance difference between a 1 MOA gun and a 1/2 MOA gun isn't realized until distances exceed the performance envelope of 7.62. There are, of course, a few super-dialed in shooters that can call wind, estimate range with dead-on precision, know environmental changes, and can make the minute adjustments necessary to guarantee a hit on such small targets that a 1/4 MOA gun is necessary to achieve the required precision, but I don't meet too many of them.
Once you are knocking on or surpassing a grand, you should really be using a more emphatic cartridge. Practically speaking, 7.62 is an 800 meter cartridge, regardless of what your pushing it out of. Much like the 5.56 argument, while you can hit at 1k, you shouldn't be pinning lives to it.
I will never prefer a less precise gun unless dependability or applicable fire rate is the compromise, and even then there is an expectation of performance that I will not be willing to lower.
Ding, Ding!! Hello!! Practically, what percentage of shots actually occur beyond, ohIdontknow, 500 meters? I mean aimed shots not spray and pray. The purpose of the weapon 100% determines the weapon. Which is why everyone is not shooting a .50 bmg bolt.
I think that is an anomaly and one should not expect that type of accuracy out of, well, damn near anything... The best I have done with a 16" MWS at 600 yds was 4.61" with 175gr GMM and most fell in the 5+" mark. I was able to get 3.17" and 3.42" at 600 with my 18" OBR using 168gr GMM. Those groups were all 5 shot groups under ideal conditions.
I was very pleased with those results, but I'm also admittedly not a great precision shooter and still have a lot to learn. I'm hoping this year will afford me the time to do several long range classes and get more consistent in my long range shooting.
Holy Crap!!! That's some dang good shootin' What optics were ya'll shooting to do that? Heck, I'm about a 2moa shooter and my primary rifle's not much better. Sooooo, at the best that would put me at......12" not taking into consideration wind. Kudo's guys. I can't even imagine.....
I predict a shift in weight shortly where one will be able to have a 16" 7.62 precision* rifle that weighs less than a 16" 416.
I say "precision" as at such a light weight it is obviously not primarily designed as a sniper platform, though it will have the requisite precision to handle threats out to 800 meters.
The weight I was talking about was the with rounds, and volume of rounds. My only issue with the 308 gas guns is mags, rounds and it does kick a bit more, especially when the weight gets lower and lower.
But they all have their place.
I do think most will agree the 16inch SPR is a good change, and my SPR light concept is good to go. After we all took our 11.5's out to 500 and made hits, it made us think- do we really need 18?". Probably not.
Lotta cool guns and the we will see 18's for years to come because , well we see M14's and M1A's and ....shit doesn't die easy.
Magic_Salad0892
03-01-13, 23:41
shit doesn't die easy.
I know. I just bought a 1911.... :eek:
Holy Crap!!! That's some dang good shootin' What optics were ya'll shooting to do that? Heck, I'm about a 2moa shooter and my primary rifle's not much better. Sooooo, at the best that would put me at......12" not taking into consideration wind. Kudo's guys. I can't even imagine.....
Notice I said "the best I have ever done" ;) At 600, I'm normally 6-8" with the MWS and 5-6" with the OBR using a Nightforce 3.5-15X50 MLR, a harris bipod or pack, and a rear squeeze bag.
Consistency is what I'm working on these days, I am all over the board somedays. On days when I "have it" I normally shoot just under or at 1 MOA at 100yds, other days I'm lucky to be at 1.5-2 MOA. The OBR is MUCH easier to shoot well with the longer gas and PRS setup. I seem to do better shooting groups on steel from 300-600 than I do trying to shoot tiny groups at 100yds. Not really sure why that is...
I really need some training, as I have really started to enjoy shooting .308 and longer range stuff over the last couple of years.
I seem to do better shooting groups on steel from 300-600 than I do trying to shoot tiny groups at 100yds. Not really sure why that is...
.
I know your pain. I would prefer to shoot groups at 500. They talk of bullets stabilizing at 2 and 300 yards and I understand it, but still have difficulty believing it. Seems possible but crazy.
I also think the pressure to fully stabilize the gun at 100, ( because you can see the slightest wobble) is greater. I have stacked many a clover leafs at 100, but it stresses me twice as much.
I think it emphasizes the value of those dot drills. Also, I'm pissed if my holes are not touching at 100, even though they might be .75 group. It's one of those crazy psychologies of shooting. Makes you crazy :suicide2:
I know your pain. I would prefer to shoot groups at 500. They talk of bullets stabilizing at 2 and 300 yards and I understand it, but still have difficulty believing it. Seems possible but crazy.
I also think the pressure to fully stabilize the gun at 100, ( because you can see the slightest wobble) is greater. I have stacked many a clover leafs at 100, but it stresses me twice as much.
I think it emphasizes the value of those dot drills. Also, I'm pissed if my holes are not touching at 100, even though they might be .75 group. It's one of those crazy psychologies of shooting. Makes you crazy :suicide2:
It drives me F'ing crazy! Doesn't make sense that shooting well below MOA at distance is easier for me to do than at 100... Its why I really respect those guys who shoot .25-.50 bug holes at 100... I always seem to shank a shot (or two :lol:) which ruins the group. I don't seem to have the skill or patience for shooting those nothing groups at 100.
Sure, I have some great ones, but I can't do it consistently so I consider those to be more luck than skill. It seems others on here can do it every time they get behind the gun.
At distance I just spray an orange or red blob on the steel and Its easier for me to shoot sub moa for whatever reason. I also only shoot 5 shot groups, so I know it doesn't count and at todays ammo prices I don't really care. :D
ramairthree
03-02-13, 13:18
I would say it has not killed it or will not.
A short range carbine, with the same hand guards, mags, ammo, etc. as your long range rifle is a nice pair.
Maybe it's just me, but I really like having that compatibility.
1371USMCFL
03-02-13, 18:44
It is interesting to read this topic. I currently have a 18" 5.56 Noveske setup, but I am finishing up my 18" .308 noveske setup once I get home. I can see the 18" 5.56 getting used less.
I predict a shift in weight shortly where one will be able to have a 16" 7.62 precision* rifle that weighs less than a 16" 416.
I say "precision" as at such a light weight it is obviously not primarily designed as a sniper platform, though it will have the requisite precision to handle threats out to 800 meters.
Would this be the LW SR25 that Kevin hinted at in another thread?
Failure2Stop
03-03-13, 08:12
Would this be the LW SR25 that Kevin hinted at in another thread?
There are a couple possibilities.
Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.
There are a couple possibilities.
Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.
Oh come on! I just bought an ECC from Lawmen's; tell me there isn't something even better on the horizon.
good topic.
i've thought about this a lot over the past year or two. my conclusion and what i've sorted my gear out for is a 10" suppressed AR and a 26" precision bolt gun (260AI) also suppressed. that pretty much covers the useful spectrum for me from 5' to 1400 yards, and the grey area / overlap is a little smaller.
that said, i'm building two 18" 556 SPRs right now. mostly for friends and family to use as i think you have to take skill into the equation. i.e. if you're not going to practice a LOT past 500, then don't bother weighing yourself down with all that crap cause you're not going to be effective anyway. I had the 308 semis but i like 556 better.
i could be wrong, as i often am, but i think the 18+ "rifle" lengths are better for the more moderately skilled to untrained than 16- "carbine" lengths for the same reason longer sight radius is better. n00bs just seem to spread their hands apart father on the longer guns and get hits faster.
I'm looking to get in o a semi auto precision rifle in the next year or so. I and stuck between something like a Kights SR-15 LPR 18 inch and a SR-25 ECR 20 inch. I don't have ranges beyond 300 yards readily available here in the Northeast. So Feel like the .308 might be overkill. On the same note, what's the price difference between quality 77grain 5.56 and quality .308 ammo? I know the SR-15 LPR will run me about $2400 and the SR-25 ECR will run me about $5,600. And then I need optics. I would probably go Nightforce for that. After reading this tread, alot of people bring up good point's like barrier penetration between .308 and 5.56 Just don't know what way to go...
$5600 for a stock rifle is still mind blowing...and I'm a KAC fan.
If all .308 gas guns cost $5600.....not only would they not kill the SPR, they'd kill themselves.
In today's world why not have both? I mean don't most people on this forum have multiple platforms and multiple versions of each platform? Or are we talking a one gun world here with only one gun in each caliber?
That said I just got my first 18" 5.56/.223 barrel with plans to create an SPR type build and this thread has me second guessing that decision in favor of yet another 16" instead.
Can't make up your mind?
17in Krieger 5.56 with midlength gas. .9in at 200 yds.
Compatibility with the rest of the team if necessary; weight; modularity--I could use a 14.5 upper and turn it into a handy carbine if necessary. These trump barrier penetration beyond 500 yds. For me.
All said, I'm still running my "Sprecce."
Man I can barely afford. 223 . There is no way I could shoot .308 like I shoot. 223
HelloLarry
03-04-13, 09:28
Has the new crop of .308 gas guns killed the 5.56 SPR?
I doubt it, at least among civilians. But the Grendel has the potential to.
I don't know why anyone would want to shoot a pig like a 308 auto when you can get similar performance out of the AR15 platform.
Failure2Stop
03-04-13, 09:42
$5600 for a stock rifle is still mind blowing...and I'm a KAC fan.
If all .308 gas guns cost $5600.....not only would they not kill the SPR, they'd kill themselves.
Check the ER and EC.
Still over 4k MSRP, and not exactly lightweight, but gets you in the game without losing any precision.
I certainly can't knock the current SR25 variants from a performance, reliability, or accuracy standpoint....and definitely can't knock it from a refinement standpoint.
All that said, $5600 for a stock factory production rifle is mind boggling. Keep in mind that I'm one of the ones who truly understands the value that lies in SR25 rifles based on the hidden R&D costs over the years while KAC was cutting it's teeth figuring out how to make .308 ARs work.
Perhaps there are many good .308 ARs out there, however the only two that I would call my own are a MWS, and an EMC....
I can get two MWSs for one EMC...personally that makes my job very easy:)
Magic_Salad0892
03-04-13, 10:59
I'm still wondering when the civilian M110K1 comes out to the civilian market.
I've been putting money aside for an SR-25 for about a year waiting for KAC to put forth the perfect one.
(A 1911, and now a 7.62mm gun. What the hell have I become?!)
Failure2Stop
03-04-13, 11:35
I'm still wondering when the civilian M110K1 comes out to the civilian market.
I've been putting money aside for an SR-25 for about a year waiting for KAC to put forth the perfect one.
(A 1911, and now a 7.62mm gun. What the hell have I become?!)
The ECC is basically the M110K1
http://www.knightarmco.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/m110c_1.jpg
http://www.knightarmco.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/2012_ECC_Right1.jpg
The K1 is on top, ECC on bottom.
Pics are a little old, so some stuff has changed.
This is the ER, the lower cost collapsible stock/16" barrel option:
http://www.knightarmco.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/2012_EC_Right1.jpg
Magic_Salad0892
03-04-13, 12:01
The ECC is basically the M110K1
I know, but it doesn't have the ambi controls, or muzzle brake from factory. The ambi controls specifically are important to me.
Either that, or I'll wait until my projects are finished, and hopefully by then KAC will start selling uppers, and lowers seperate again.
Failure2Stop
03-04-13, 12:11
I know, but it doesn't have the ambi controls, or muzzle brake from factory. The ambi controls specifically are important to me.
Either that, or I'll wait until my projects are finished, and hopefully by then KAC will start selling uppers, and lowers seperate again.
They do have the ambi controls, it's an old pic from the website
Magic_Salad0892
03-04-13, 12:19
They do have the ambi controls, it's an old pic from the website
You are seriously about to cost me almost 6 grand with that statement.
You are seriously about to cost me almost 6 grand with that statement.
It's tax return time, go get it!
The ECC is basically the M110K1
http://www.knightarmco.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/m110c_1.jpg
That looks suspiciously familiar....:p
Has the new crop of .308 gas guns killed the 5.56 SPR?
For me it has.
I had planned on a second AR set up as a RECEE/SPR, but once I started looking at the .308's it was all over. Once I actually got a little hands on time with a couple, the 5.56 guns were just dead to me. :laugh:
I understand the capabilites of 5.56 in an accurized package are not to be understated, but dammit, now I just have to have the .308.
So now the planned lineup (like this will ever happen) is 2 standard 5.56 guns set up identical for general purpose use, and the .308 once those are squared away.
You are seriously about to cost me almost 6 grand with that statement.
8 grand- Optics. :p
Magic_Salad0892
03-04-13, 19:36
8 grand- Optics. :p
That made me throw up in my mouth a little. Lol. My wallet is going to hate me in the future for sure.
That made me throw up in my mouth a little. Lol. My wallet is going to hate me in the future for sure.
It will. Trust me. I run an 18" OBR with an H27D CQBSS. I dont like adding up the bill for that beast.
Does the ER have ambi bolt release?
domestique
03-05-13, 03:50
I only have 5.56 guns for training with cheap ammo and the fact that a 5.56 is “the current American” rifle to own, also a rifle to teach women, children, and people new to guns an easy and fun rifle to enjoy.
I am not a soldier that would benefit from double the round count of 5.56 over 7.62 while humping over the mountain passes of Tora Bora. In my state 5.56 is not a large enough for hunting deer (and I couldn’t use semi-auto rifles anyways). So an accurate AR for hunting distances is of no use in that sense. I use 300 blackout for self-defense within my home and property, and would use a “308” battle for “walking around town”.
I personally have no use for a 5.56 Reece rifle but see the benefit for military, LEO and just collectors of different weapon platforms. While I would like to eventually get an accurized AR, it is pretty far down my list of wants. 5-10 years ago the 7.62 AR had a lot of catching up to do to accurized 5.56 rifles. Now with soo many options of quality, accurate and RELIABLE 7.62 AR’s I see the 5.56 Reece markets no longer having a monopoly on semi-auto Reece oriented rifles.
Failure2Stop
03-05-13, 07:53
Does the ER have ambi bolt release?
Not at this time.
Conventional wisdom until relatively recently was that AR-10s were never reliable.
What changed? Who led the change--- Larue and Knights? Is it as simple as getting the gas port sized correctly-- or the weight of the bolt, or. . . . .
If you remember 8-10 years ago, the change has been quite significant.
RamadiDoorkicker
03-05-13, 09:48
I'm another that doesn't believe the 308 will drive out 556 in the RECCE arena. It all goes back to what the operational environment will be. If my engagements are under 150 I will take 5.56 every time. Lighter, higher ammo capacity, ability to carry greater quantity of ammo due to weight, less recoil to manage....That being said, 308 is without a doubt taking the arena at mid-range and beyond!
ramairthree
03-05-13, 10:33
Conventional wisdom until relatively recently was that AR-10s were never reliable.
What changed? Who led the change--- Larue and Knights? Is it as simple as getting the gas port sized correctly-- or the weight of the bolt, or. . . . .
If you remember 8-10 years ago, the change has been quite significant.
I think the 7.62 Pmags have made a significant increase in reliability. At least that is my personal experience.
Failure2Stop
03-05-13, 11:09
Conventional wisdom until relatively recently was that AR-10s were never reliable.
What changed? Who led the change--- Larue and Knights? Is it as simple as getting the gas port sized correctly-- or the weight of the bolt, or. . . . .
If you remember 8-10 years ago, the change has been quite significant.
Nothing is ever as simple as it seems.
Get a gas port location and size that works with one ammo and then suppress the gun and use another ammo type and things get weird.
Find a chamber and twist rate that gives sniper level precision, and then change the firing rate or ammo and reliability drops.
Repeat this cycle with every part of the rifle and you see what kind of a challenge it is.
There are nearly countless variables that have to be balanced to achieve success with the platforms. It takes time, input, testing, validation, and real world experience to get us where we are now.
It gets a lot easier when someone does it first.
That isn't an accusation of any kind, just saying that once you know it has been done it kind of lights the path.
For me, the new .308 Ar style rifle has killed the 5.56 precision rifles. I have both an lmt mws 16" SS .308, and a 20" sdm(ish) .223 rifle and the .223 almost never gets used anymore.
The only reasons I really keep it around, is for cheaper practice and when I shoot team matches my partner usually shoots it. Soon I won't even be using the .223 as my partners gun in matches, I have put my self on a list for an sr25ecc to take the spot of my partners/ back up rifle.
I really enjoy shooting the .223, but it just doesn't have the reach of the .308. Seeing splash to make corrections is almost impossible past 650yds so for me it is a 600yd and in rifle. My 16" .308 easily makes it to 800 and is capable of being stretched past that. Many of these team matches require 2 rifles capable of 1000yds or so, and the .223 is frustrating in stages where distances are 600yds and beyond.
I know many of you are talking more about the real world application of these rifles, but I don't hunt so these are merely tools to compete with for me.
domestique
03-05-13, 20:35
For me, the new .308 Ar style rifle has killed the 5.56 precision rifles. I have both an lmt mws 16" SS .308, and a 20" sdm(ish) .223 rifle and the .223 almost never gets used anymore.
The only reasons I really keep it around, is for cheaper practice and when I shoot team matches my partner usually shoots it. Soon I won't even be using the .223 as my partners gun in matches, I have put my self on a list for an sr25ecc to take the spot of my partners/ back up rifle.
I really enjoy shooting the .223, but it just doesn't have the reach of the .308. Seeing splash to make corrections is almost impossible past 650yds so for me it is a 600yd and in rifle. My 16" .308 easily makes it to 800 and is capable of being stretched past that. Many of these team matches require 2 rifles capable of 1000yds or so, and the .223 is frustrating in stages where distances are 600yds and beyond.
I know many of you are talking more about the real world application of these rifles, but I don't hunt so these are merely tools to compete with for me.
Couldn't agree more. Reece 5.56 rifles are GREAT/PERFECT application for a squad DMR that needs to have better target identification while still having the same ammo capabilities and quantities as his team mates.
But real world for dictates a 308 is a much better round for my applications.
Like the title asks, have the new .308 gas guns killed the SPR in 5.56?
A week after I bought my M&P 15 Tactical, my preferred firearms dealer got in a stock of M&P 10's.
I was a little disappointed that I jumped on the AR-15 bandwagon.
A week after I bought my M&P 15 Tactical, my preferred firearms dealer got in a stock of M&P 10's.
I was a little disappointed that I jumped on the AR-15 bandwagon.
Why? AR15s shine in close to medium range where their terminal and barrier penetration is acceptable and their higher ammo count and lower recoil makes them extremely useful. 308s have less rds per mag, are heavier and bulkier, have slower follow up shots, but excel at longer ranges and through harder barriers.
If this thread really changed your mind, why did you buy an m&p15 in the first place? Why not a larue or noveske or sr15 or some other precision AR? Don't bandwagon hop, you're doing it and you know it. Figure out what your needs are and buy a weapon that fulfills those needs. Your needs don't seem to be neutralizing two legged threats through windshields from 600m, so don't worry about your purchase.
jerrysimons
03-06-13, 10:12
What an interesting topic! Thanks M4C.
For those who lean toward .308, which barrel length do you find preferable? Do you further differentiate preferable barrel lengths per sub-application within the .308 performance envelope? For example, when would you prefer the M110 over the M110k1? Or does 16" get the job done while keeping weight down, and if you needed more range you would rather step up to a .300 win mag bolt gun?
If we had the current SR's back in 2003, I think the opinions would be a little different in that the success would have had more air time to effect public opinion in a positive way. I know guys who still believe the SR-25 is a POS because of ones they were issued 6 years ago.
Our current 16" SR's made me a believer in the system.
sinlessorrow
03-06-13, 10:28
If we had the current SR's back in 2003, I think the opinions would be a little different in that the success would have had more air time to effect public opinion in a positive way. I know guys who still believe the SR-25 is a POS because of ones they were issued 6 years ago.
Our current 16" SR's made me a believer in the system.
Any new rifle will have teething issues and KAC has made huge strides in making the SR-25 a world class weapon, and the best currently on the market bar none.
Look at the evolutionary changes to the brits L129A1 as well.
RearwardAssist
03-06-13, 10:40
A week after I bought my M&P 15 Tactical, my preferred firearms dealer got in a stock of M&P 10's.
I was a little disappointed that I jumped on the AR-15 bandwagon.
Yeah I would never get rid of my carbine for my 308 but in a longer range precision roll I chose the 308 and bypassed the spr style.
RearwardAssist
03-06-13, 10:42
What an interesting topic! Thanks M4C.
For those who lean toward .308, which barrel length do you find preferable? Do you further differentiate preferable barrel lengths per sub-application within the .308 performance envelope? For example, when would you prefer the M110 over the M110k1? Or does 16" get the job done while keeping weight down, and if you needed more range you would rather step up to a .300 win mag bolt gun?
I chose the 16".
Any new rifle will have teething issues and KAC has made huge strides in making the SR-25 a world class weapon, and the best currently on the market bar none.
Agreed. Our current guns have boring reliability and accuracy.
Couldn't agree more. Reece 5.56 rifles are GREAT/PERFECT application for a squad DMR that needs to have better target identification while still having the same ammo capabilities and quantities as his team mates.
But real world for dictates a 308 is a much better round for my applications.
Keep in mind that I'm not referring to a RECCE 1-4X rifle. I think that is one of the best setups you can build for a GP rig, provided you can buy the right low power variable.
For me when it comes to 5.56 guns I prefer an RDS for everything inside 100 yds and for HD etc. For 100-300 yds, I prefer a quality low power variable, with true 1X and good eye relief.
My thoughts and this thread are centered more towards those times when we have 5.56 guns paired with 10X optics in an SPR / precision role and shooting at the limits of the round.
I'll add more to the thread later regarding what brought me to preferring .308. and starting this thread, but for now, I'm enjoying reading what other folks thoughts are on the subject.
Magic_Salad0892
03-06-13, 12:03
I'm surprised this hasn't been moved to the Precision Semi-Auto section.
has the new crop of .308 killed the 5.56? I don't think so. different capabilities, different roles, like a sniper has a suite of arms to fit the circumstance.
I can't remember who said it but it stuck with me - the rule of 4's: 5.56 to 400 yards, .308 to 800, .300 WM to 1200, etc...
not saying people haven't gotten very satisfactory results outside those parameters but these are guidelines for effectiveness on soft targets. I don't think this is about hard barrier penetration and that obviously skews the requirements.
the rule oversimplifies things, there's plenty of overlap, and exceptions to every rule but it does put things in perspective. if nothing else it suggests the limitations of a smaller bore at the outer edge of the envelope and justifies the crossover to the larger bore. but just as easily it shows where something is in it's element.
my needs right now are limited to 5,56 capability but that doesn't stop me from wanting a bigger bore gas gun. it's just that the care and feeding is so expensive that I worry it will get much use...
has the new crop of .308 killed the 5.56? I don't think so. different capabilities, different roles, like a sniper has a suite of arms to fit the circumstance.
I can't remember who said it but it stuck with me - the rule of 4's: 5.56 to 400 yards, .308 to 800, .300 WM to 1200, etc...
not saying people haven't gotten very satisfactory results outside those parameters but these are guidelines for effectiveness on soft targets. I don't think this is about hard barrier penetration and that obviously skews the requirements.
the rule oversimplifies things, there's plenty of overlap, and exceptions to every rule but it does put things in perspective. if nothing else it suggests the limitations of a smaller bore at the outer edge of the envelope and justifies the crossover to the larger bore. but just as easily it shows where something is in it's element.
my needs right now are limited to 5,56 capability but that doesn't stop me from wanting a bigger bore gas gun. it's just that the care and feeding is so expensive that I worry it will get much use...
Kyle Defoor. See my post on page 2.
Keep in mind that I'm not referring to a RECCE 1-4X rifle. I think that is one of the best setups you can build for a GP rig, provided you can buy the right low power variable.
For me when it comes to 5.56 guns I prefer an RDS for everything inside 100 yds and for HD etc. For 100-300 yds, I prefer a quality low power variable, with true 1X and good eye relief.
My thoughts and this thread are centered more towards those times when we have 5.56 guns paired with 10X optics in an SPR / precision role and shooting at the limits of the round.
I'll add more to the thread later regarding what brought me to preferring .308. and starting this thread, but for now, I'm enjoying reading what other folks thoughts are on the subject.
agree with this - the optic defines the role of the weapon. 5.56 and 1-4 or -6 go together like ham and cheese, but that doesn't stop me from sourcing a mid-range variable for the 5.56 SPRish gun I'm building... :D
Kyle Defoor. See my post on page 2.
gaaah! thanks dude...
gaaah! thanks dude...
Not a problem. That quote has always stuck with me as well.
Magic_Salad0892
03-06-13, 14:00
Not a problem. That quote has always stuck with me as well.
Same here, for some reason.
Why? AR15s shine in close to medium range where their terminal and barrier penetration is acceptable and their higher ammo count and lower recoil makes them extremely useful. 308s have less rds per mag, are heavier and bulkier, have slower follow up shots, but excel at longer ranges and through harder barriers.
If this thread really changed your mind, why did you buy an m&p15 in the first place? Why not a larue or noveske or sr15 or some other precision AR? Don't bandwagon hop, you're doing it and you know it. Figure out what your needs are and buy a weapon that fulfills those needs. Your needs don't seem to be neutralizing two legged threats through windshields from 600m, so don't worry about your purchase.
This thread didn't sway my opinion. I purchased an M&P 15T from my LGS thinking I might never get the chance to own one if I didn't jump on it then and there. The stock they had sold out in about an hour.
A few days after I picked it up, the same store announced that the M&P 10 was in stock.
That's why I regretted the original purchase.
Yes, I succumbed to the hysteria. I'm ashamed to admit it.
I'm selling the M&P and going after my true grail, the Springfield SOCOM II (let the flaming commence).
This thread didn't sway my opinion. I purchased an M&P 15T from my LGS thinking I might never get the chance to own one if I didn't jump on it then and there. The stock they had sold out in about an hour.
A few days after I picked it up, the same store announced that the M&P 10 was in stock.
That's why I regretted the original purchase.
Yes, I succumbed to the hysteria. I'm ashamed to admit it.
I'm selling the M&P and going after my true grail, the Springfield SOCOM II (let the flaming commence).
...
Why?
...
Why?
Which part? The part about me buying the SOCOM II?
To be tacticool, of course! Why else?!
Just kidding.
Like I said, the AR15 was an impulse buy, but it doesn't satisfy my needs (I only want to own one rifle).
I need a rifle that I can hunt deer and boar with, that also doubles as a semi-automatic battle rifle should the need for one arise.
It will. Trust me. I run an 18" OBR with an H27D CQBSS. I dont like adding up the bill for that beast.
I have the same optic on my EMC and with the mount, mags, ammo, chest rig, etc, it definitely is mind blowing how much I have tied up into one set up.
Since the time I bought the SR25 EMC when they were first released, my Noveske SPR has really seen limited use. Like a poster said earlier, I keep it around for my kids and for them, shooting that rifle suppressed helps them concentrate on the fundementals of shooting without being too distracted with the crack of the 5.56 round (a couple of the kids are still pretty young).
I also picked up an 18" .308 OBR but, that rifle will be primarily set up as a bench rest/prone shooting set up and one that I have no plans to run like a battle rifle.
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