M1A Clone builds vs. FAL Clone builds

[culannmac]

This is not about which battle rifle is better.

So I'm in the market for a .308 battle rifle. Not for uber-modern tactical use but for my "clones of the cold war" collection. Purpose of use is mostly for range fun and historical interest, which is why I don't want to pay for the real deal. I've read the pros and cons of the big three rifles and I'm down to an M1A or a FAL. I know I can settle on a cheap rifle, but I tend to like my toys to be overbuilt and reliable. I'd like to eventually pass my collection to my son.

So if I go the M1A route I'd want a Fulton or LRB. I'm really leaning towards a FAL, but I'm not sure which route to go. It seems that for a new manufactured FAL, DSA seems to be the only game in town. However according to my googlefoo research DSA quality and customer service has gone south the last couple of years. My other option is to buy a kit (Imbel or L1A1) and send it to someone like Arizona Response Systems to build. I'm really iffy about kit parts, because I'm not knowledgeable enough to judge good parts from bad.

After doing some price checks a good M1A would go for ~3k, (might as well buy a SCAR), a DSA FAL about $1,600.00 - 2000.00

Any opinions or advice would be much appreciated.

[alvincullumyork]

Where have you heard about DSA going south? A FAL is on my when I have a real job and can afford list.

[culannmac]

I found a number of threads. This is typical:

http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?99332-Fal-buying-options


It seems that DSA is running out of surplus parts and are having to make parts in house these days. There have been a number of post on FALFILES reporting issues with items such as the Bolt.

I would only recommend purchasing an older DSA assembled with surplus parts versus a newer model. I can not recommend Enterprise they have a very bad reputation for poor customer service.

As part kits are becoming pricey due to a lack of supply it is becoming more expensive to have a parts kit gun assembled. Many parts kit guns on the used market are selling for less than the cost of purchasing a kit and reciever these days that many people are just not selling anymore or are breaking there rifles down and selling as a kit an a seperate reciever.

I am lucky that I got both of my DSA while they had plenty of surplus parts to assembly my rifles. I feel that the older DSA are great rifles but the newer ones are having to many issues to recommend. Just remember that even there SA models rifles used surplus parts in them not just there STG models.




I don't "hate" DSA, I just can't "not notice" when their quality drops. Or they forget to grind the import proof marks off their "US Made" parts.

They make a lot of good products and used to make a lot more. Their QC has fallen in recent years.

Early (5+ years ago?) DSA receivers made by LMT are excellent. 10 years ago they were nearly all Austrian parts. DSA US firing pins and bolts, I don't trust. Barrels - not impressed.

The more original parts from any country, the better.

Last edited by gunplumber; 05-25-2012 at 09:26 AM.


T. Mark Graham, Master Gunsmith
Arizona Response Systems, LLC

That said, I'm a newbie not an expert, I've just read a number of threads from various sources. I can only assume that's there is some truth to the opinions.

[SteyrAUG]

This is not about which battle rifle is better.

So I'm in the market for a .308 battle rifle. Not for uber-modern tactical use but for my "clones of the cold war" collection. Purpose of use is mostly for range fun and historical interest, which is why I don't want to pay for the real deal. I've read the pros and cons of the big three rifles and I'm down to an M1A or a FAL. I know I can settle on a cheap rifle, but I tend to like my toys to be overbuilt and reliable. I'd like to eventually pass my collection to my son.

So if I go the M1A route I'd want a Fulton or LRB. I'm really leaning towards a FAL, but I'm not sure which route to go. It seems that for a new manufactured FAL, DSA seems to be the only game in town. However according to my googlefoo research DSA quality and customer service has gone south the last couple of years. My other option is to buy a kit (Imbel or L1A1) and send it to someone like Arizona Response Systems to build. I'm really iffy about kit parts, because I'm not knowledgeable enough to judge good parts from bad.

After doing some price checks a good M1A would go for ~3k, (might as well buy a SCAR), a DSA FAL about $1,600.00 - 2000.00

Any opinions or advice would be much appreciated.

Well first off neither Fulton/LRB or DSA qualify as "cheap clones." Both are very high quality.

DSA hasn't gone downhill, they just ran out of Stg58 parts kits so quality "parts kit" guns from DSA are no more. The SA58 series available today is no different from the SA58 series DSA made years ago. It's not like they suddenly forgot how to make receivers, barrels and bolts. Obviously a rifle made with all Steyr parts will be higher quality and more desirable.

If you find a decent quality Imbel kit and get a good receiver (Imbel or DSA) you can build a nice rifle, probably will cost as much as a DSA SA58 and the only reason to go that route would be to have a Imbel on Imbel rifle. Tracking down a Imbel receiver might prove daunting.

No matter what route you take, the FAL will probably be cheaper than a LRB receiver with USGI parts or a Fulton Armory rifle with USGI parts. So long as you avoid Springfield Armory (except for older rifles with USGI parts) you should be good to go.

[domestique]

To echo what Steyr said. LRB is not a cheap alternative by any means. I have two 18 inch barreled M25 builds (picatinny rail) model built into receiver. They are one of the few to use FORGED receivers and still use mostly USGI parts. Being a family owned company was huge for me, but expect to wait a year if you are building, but a lot of times you can get a decent buy on Gun Broker. For perspective my 2 builds cost $2,700 a piece for USGI fiberglass or wood stocks, add antoher $700 for a Sage/Troy EBR style stock.

My 2 rifles both shoot sub MOA with Federal Gold Medal Match, and 2-2.5 inches with Nato surplus ammo (Radway green, German DAG for example).

The cheapest route would be going Springfield but be prepared to have to change out some of their MIM items (extractors, etc.) as they wear down and break.

The FAL in my opinion is more ergo friendly and many shooters that learned on the AR prefer them over the M14. You really cannot go wrong with either.

[culannmac]

Sorry guys, it was a poor choice of words. I know Fulton and LRB are probably the best M1A builders out there. I'm just not as sure that DSA is similar in regards to FALs. Thanks for the opinions.

[Peshawar]

Buy an Imbel FAL receiver from gunjoker and a Argentinian FAL kit from Sarco. Send to reputable smith. Boom, done. :)

[Troy9749]

Entreprise had some Imbel kits that were refinished for around $550 last time I looked. I built an Imbel kit on an Imbel receiver and indexing the barrel was the only time I had to remove any metal. The rest of the build was a full teardown/reassembly. I have about $700 in that gun (pre panic) Kits are still out there, but getting thin lately.

I'm working on a "kit" now that I bought from a private seller. Turned out to be an Imbel top chunk with a Brit lower and a bag of loose parts. That is where you get complicated, lots of fitting involved.

DSA is a quality gun, but with a little patience you can turn out a comparable rifle for a lot less IMHO.

I love the M1A, but I'd go FAL (obviously) It's not super accurate, but it's super durable, there are still mags out there for $20, and they're very fun and easy to shoot. If you decide to have a smith build you one Arizona Response Systems is one of the best according to the FAL community.


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[SteyrAUG]

Sorry guys, it was a poor choice of words. I know Fulton and LRB are probably the best M1A builders out there. I'm just not as sure that DSA is similar in regards to FALs. Thanks for the opinions.

DSA makes an excellent FAL.

Really the only thing bad one can say about the "in house" SA58 build is it isn't quite Steyr quality.

Also keep in mind that some gunsmiths with strong opinions about DSA made parts earn their living by building part kit guns. Now most of my DSA rifles are Stg58 series (original Steyr parts) and I think a military barrel is usually superior to a US commercial barrel, but I've seen and shot enough SA58 variants to know there isn't anything wrong with them.

[twistedcomrade]

Are you dead set on one of these clones? There are several good 308 AR choices out there and for $3K, I think you are correct about getting a SCAR.

[SteyrAUG]

Are you dead set on one of these clones? There are several good 308 AR choices out there and for $3K, I think you are correct about getting a SCAR.

Given this...

"for my "clones of the cold war" collection."

I'd say yes.

[culannmac]

Yup,
History and Military History is one of my hobbies.I know my growing collection sounds kind of silly. I had an epiphany after a conversation with my Great Uncle about WWII, that me and my generation lived through a historical epoch of our own.

My wife and I are army brats and we grew up during the Cold War. She was born in West Germany when her Dad was stationed at Bad Tölz. My family did two tours in Germany, Pirmasens and Stuttgart.
They both did tours in Vietnam, they both retired in the late 80's (My wife's dad as a 1st Sgt. my dad as a CSM)

So seeing that a lot of cold war sites have been turned into museums, I thought it would be neat to have a few clones dressed up as cold war rifles. So far I have an Arsenal SGL21, and a PTR91 (sorry SteyrAUG). I'd like to get an AR clone of a M16A1 and a FAL.
Anyway for all of you cold war vets, thanks.

Here's a few blasts from the past.

Point Alpha Memorial
http://www.pointalpha.com/node/252

Minuteman Missile National Historic Site
http://www.nps.gov/mimi/index.htm

And who can forget AFN and Reforger!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5PSeG-hJUU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5PSeG-hJUU)

[SteyrAUG]

You might find this interesting.

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=33942