M&P9 and XS sights, problem...

[Magsz]

Hey guys, ive got some questions for anyone that might be able to help me.

First and foremost i love my M&P9. Its the first pistol ive ever owned and i really believe that i made an excellent choice with this one.

I did however have one issue with the gun. I really didnt like the novak style three dot white sights so i decided to give something else a try.

Yes, i know XS sights are either loved or hated but my issue really has nothing to do with that. (i think)

Here's the problem. I read the directions and decided that since this was my first gun i really shouldnt mess with it. I have the tools available and i am mechanically inclined so i knew i could do it properly but again, sometimes its a better idea to let a "professional" handle the situation.

I took it to my local shooting center, explained it was a standard dovetail style sight and can be fitted as such. I then gave the guy behind the counter the instructions and he said come back in two hours ill have it installed.

I came back, the sights were on and my slide was midly marred, im guessing he missed with the punch a few times. Also, my stock novak front sight was broken in half. From what ive read you need thors hammer in order to remove the front sight. Either that or the APPROPRIATE SIGHT REMOVAL TOOL, (hi grant).

Anyway, my sights were in place, i could see that he locktighted everything as it should be and i went to go shoot. The manual says that you need to allow the locktight to sit roughly one hour before shooting. Obviously longer is better but it had been two hours and i was desperate to shoot.

I went into the shooting range, shot off 150 rounds and realized that my front sight had come loose at some point in time.

Now, here is part one of the question. If something is dovetailed it should be wedged into its slot and for the most part, unable to move, correct? I understand that yes, it can shift if not lock tighted down but my sight was free to move laterally at least three to four millimeters. Im wondering if the gentlemen filed too much off of the bottom of the sight and that was why it came loose to that degree?

The second part of my question is, it appeared as though most of my shots were going to the left (im a right handed shooter) and down. If i aim at the head at 15 feet i hit either the neck or slightly to the left of the neck. Im very much a new shooter, i know very little about the correct grip and the correct sight picture but im wondering if this is more of a sight issue or a shooter issue. Im guessing its both but its hard to say. (ive watched that todd jarret pistol shooting video about 60 times)

What would you guys recommend i do so that i can rule out the possibility of it being a gun issue? Once ive ruled out it being the gun i can go to work on what im doing wrong as the shooter.

[ToddG]

Your front sight should be solidly in the dovetail unable to move even if strong pressure is applied. A number of possibilities here:
Your dovetail was out of spec to begin with.
The dimensions of the XS sight was out of spec to begin with.
The 'smith did something to mess up your dovetail.
The 'smith did something to mess up your sight base.

Shooting low left for a right-handed shooter is commonly diagnosed as jerking the trigger, and odds are very good that's what you're doing. However, it could also be caused by the sights not being zeroed (especially since they were just installed), some other fundamentals problems (anticipation, too much or too little finger on the trigger, contacting the frame with your trigger finger, not pulling straight back on the trigger, etc.) or a combination of any/all of the above.

Were you shooting low left before the XS sights were installed?

[Magsz]

Todd, im a pretty awful shooter to begin with.

I can solidly hit a man sized target at 15 or 20 feet every time in the chest region but if you were to ask me to place all of my shots in the head i wouldnt really be able to do so.

I will say that i was a halfway decent shot albeit a slow shot with the stock novak sights. I certainly was not shooting low and to the left with the stock sights.

I believe that in addition to any of the problems outlined above by both yourself and i, i still need to get used to the sight picture on the XS sights. Its very different and i could very well be using the incorrect procedure.

One thing that i do like about the sights is that they are ridiculously fast, i really love the way they designed i just need to figure out a way to wring more accuracy out of my gun and my ability as a shooter.

[Trim2L]

I came back, the sights were on and my slide was midly marred, im guessing he missed with the punch a few times. Also, my stock novak front sight was broken in half. From what ive read you need thors hammer in order to remove the front sight. Either that or the APPROPRIATE SIGHT REMOVAL TOOL, (hi grant).

This is the tell-tail of a hack. The site should be driven by the base, not the blade. I'd be suspect of the entire job especially since the new sight fell off when shot the first time.

I've installed M&P sights and while they were stiff coming out they weren't so bad they had to be destroyed.

[Magsz]

Yeah, i thought the same thing but im a total novice and while that doesnt mean im willing to be taken for a ride im less than enthusiastic about speaking up and being made a fool of.

I want to learn and the last thing that i really want to do is question someone who has 30+ years of firearms experience over me. Sure, 30+ years doesnt make him a genius or a pro gunsmith but it certainly makes me two weeks look rather paltry in comparison.

What do you guys recommend i do? Right now i have some more red locktight seeping under the front sight in order to secure it in its dovetail. I really honestly dont think this is enough but im willing to give it a try.

Should i instead call XS or possibly S&W and see if they can offer me some advice?

The fact that the slide is marred pisses me off a little bit but honestly, its a tool, i dont really care if my tools are a bit dirty or well worn so long as they work as intended.

[Trim2L]

Yeah, i thought the same thing but im a total novice and while that doesnt mean im willing to be taken for a ride im less than enthusiastic about speaking up and being made a fool of.

I want to learn and the last thing that i really want to do is question someone who has 30+ years of firearms experience over me. Sure, 30+ years doesnt make him a genius or a pro gunsmith but it certainly makes me two weeks look rather paltry in comparison.

What do you guys recommend i do? Right now i have some more red locktight seeping under the front sight in order to secure it in its dovetail. I really honestly dont think this is enough but im willing to give it a try.

Should i instead call XS or possibly S&W and see if they can offer me some advice?

The fact that the slide is marred pisses me off a little bit but honestly, its a tool, i dont really care if my tools are a bit dirty or well worn so long as they work as intended.

The sight came loose while you were still there, you didn't get what you paid for. If it were me I'd give him a chance to fix it.

By the way, if you need and extra front M&P sight let me know and I'll send you one.

[Magsz]

He re locktighted it and told me to let it rest for 24 hours.

Im going to do that and see how it works out.

Im a little uneasy knowing that at any moment in the future my locktighted front sight could come loose simply because its not being held in by friction like it should be IF im reading todd's response correctly.

[ToddG]

So not to bust your cajones but ... if you're a self-described "awful shooter" then you should spend your money on training and practice, not new sights. If you cannot put all your shots in a head box at 15 feet, there are some fundamental problems that changing sights -- especially to sights that give you a rougher sight picture, like the XS -- aren't going to help.

My standard approach with students is that until someone can put all of his shots into a 3x5 card at 7yd every time on demand, he's not ready to think about going faster or working on speed, reloads, draws, etc. He's certainly not ready to be redesigning his pistol.

Learn proper visual reference (sight alignment and sight picture) and trigger manipulation. Missing a head box at 5yd is almost certainly a function of flinching, at least in large part. Try dry-fire and some kind of ball & dummy drill to help get over that. Better yet, find a professional credentialed instructor in your area and take a lesson or two. Until you fix the problem, you're just reinforcing a bad habit.

[Magsz]

Good advice Todd and im pretty sure you're 100% spot on.

My friends tell me i flinch, im completely unaware of it.

I probably did jump the gun with the new sights but i was having trouble picking up the white post sight on the standard novaks. I have less than stellar vision and i figured the larger big dot "golf ball" would be easier to pick up. I am at least right in that assumption, its VERY easy to pick up the dot, its a whole 'nother thing to make myself shoot accurately with it.

You live you learn, whether or not the replacement of the sights ends up being a mistake, only time will tell.

Thanks for the excellent advice Todd.

EDIT:

Um....

Quick question guys, which direction are the sights supposed to be removed from the slide? I was under the impression they were supposed to be knocked from left to right when the barrel is facing AWAY from you.

Is that the case?

If so this "gunsmith" knocked them out the wrong way which probably explains why my sights wont stay in place now...sigh.

[ra2bach]

does the sight on the M&P have to be drifted out in either particular direction? I know SIG advises to remove and replace from one direction only, though I don't remember which side that is...

[Magsz]

I have a PDF on my computer from mp-pistol.com that explains how to do a trigger job. They make specific mention in the article that the gunsmith must push the old sights out from LEFT to RIGHT if the barrel is facing away from the smith.

My "gunsmith" didnt do that.