View Full Version : Love my new xs sights M&P
Just installed a set of xs big dot sights on my M&P, Absolutely love em! Shot them out to 25 yards with no problem. Install was very easy, didn't have to shave too much off to fit.
Just installed a set of xs big dot sights on my M&P, Absolutely love em! Shot them out to 25 yards with no problem. Install was very easy, didn't have to shave too much off to fit.
Really? I bought my 19 with them on. I don't like them.
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff244/cpd1515/DSCN4304.jpg
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff244/cpd1515/DSCN4305.jpg
Just installed a set of xs big dot sights on my M&P, Absolutely love em! Shot them out to 25 yards with no problem. Install was very easy, didn't have to shave too much off to fit.
Can you tell us what kind of groups you are getting at 25yds?
C4
RancidSumo
02-28-13, 21:34
I don't understand the point of these sights. I'd be interested in hearing if any experienced shooters are actually considerably faster with these than with something like Ameriglo Hackathorns and if so, at what cost to accuracy.
I don't understand the point of these sights. I'd be interested in hearing if any experienced shooters are actually considerably faster with these than with something like Ameriglo Hackathorns and if so, at what cost to accuracy.
They're sometimes good for people with extremely poor vision.
They're fine for all the shots you take without using sights anyway.
Other than that they're slow and difficult to get any kind of sight picture with.
I've tried 'em several times and just never saw any advantage whatsoever to 'em. I liken them to shooting a pistol with no rear sight.
GUNSLINGER733
02-28-13, 23:04
No response on group size. Hmmm. I'd like to try these sights. I don't see them being very accurate past 25yards which isn't far. I believe some think 25 yards is like a damn football field. Lol
I don't understand how this rear sight can possibly work well. Please educate me. I have heard James Yeager plug these but have never actually seen anyone with them....
If we are talking group size, then these are not the correct sights for you. This target is hardly worth bragging about, but these rounds were fired during my police qualification course with a timer and holster draw. 7 yards , 15 yards, and 25 yards. I would love to test these out at 50 yards someday but in an urban police environment, most shootouts will take place under 20 feet.http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff244/cpd1515/IMG_0785-1.jpg
I have used these sights for a number of years. I have them on every handgun that I carry for defensive purposes. I am a life-long shooter, and I am serous about shooting but by no means a high speed-low drag guy.
First and foremost, these are not target sights. Although there are probably those who can shoot these sights well at distance (e.g. 25 yards), they are not optimized for that purpose.
They are optimized for speed.
The best analog I can think of is a red dot sight on a rifle. It is not for precision, but excel at speed for practical use.
I first came to these sights because of eyesight issues. Presbyopia is a bitch that comes to visit and stay around 50 years of age. If you want a taste of what this is like, borrow someone else's glasses and try sighting a handgun. Multi-focal contacts effectively solved my problem and deserve a whole thread as shooting accessory/necessity, but that's for another time.
The other thing worthy of discussion with these sights, regardless of age, centers on how the body works. For instance it is easier for a human to align vertically than horizontally. That is not opinion, it is scientific fact. Also how we see and our body functions in real SHTF stress with adrenaline dumping into our bloodstream, is different than range time or even competition. Fine muscle movement and visual acuity declines; so the ability to align conventional post and notch deteriorates. This is all on a level within our bodies that we cannot consciously control.
These sights are easier to see and use in such times because they are big, and easier to align because they work better with how the body works. sidebar- these sights are the same as used on the old-time African express rifles used for dangerous game, think charging lion or other beast capable of killing you RIGHT NOW.
I have found these sights perform well at the job they were intended to do.
I have these on my nightstand M&P. If you "dot the i" consistently with practice (lots of sight picture - dry firing) they can be fast and accurate to COM at 7-12ft.
Like others have said, these are not target sights. It's all about your intended purpose.
If we are talking group size, then these are not the correct sights for you. This target is hardly worth bragging about, but these rounds were fired during my police qualification course with a timer and holster draw. 7 yards , 15 yards, and 25 yards. I would love to test these out at 50 yards someday but in an urban police environment, most shootouts will take place under 20 feet.
When you say something like, "Shot fine at 25yds" we are interested in what that actually means. To some, "shot fine" simply means they hit a 12X18 IPDA B zone. :bad:
For me, I want sights that will allow me to shoot 3" or better at 25yds.
The XS sights are commonly viewed as a waste (as they are only good for close up work). If they work for you, drive on...
C4
brushy bill
03-01-13, 16:27
They're sometimes good for people with extremely poor vision.
They're fine for all the shots you take without using sights anyway.
Other than that they're slow and difficult to get any kind of sight picture with.
I've tried 'em several times and just never saw any advantage whatsoever to 'em. I liken them to shooting a pistol with no rear sight.
Mirrors my experience. Hope you have a different outcome, but I would use something else, including stock sights first.
Mirrors my experience. Hope you have a different outcome, but I would use something else, including stock sights first.
Yeah, I recently went to the range and rented a glock 19 gen 3, same as mine, but with stock sights. I fired both, my 19 with xs sights and the stock rental 19 back to back, the stock sights are much better.
Yeah, I recently went to the range and rented a glock 19 gen 3, same as mine, but with stock sights. I fired both, my 19 with xs sights and the stock rental 19 back to back, the stock sights are much better.
Which is saying something because for many, the Glock factory sights are merely place holders for the real sights you put on when you get the gun home. Tried the XS sights years back when the company was called Ashley Express. They lasted exactly 50 rounds and went in trash. I replaced them with Heinie straight eights and they've been there fourteen years.
Which is saying something because for many, the Glock factory sights are merely place holders for the real sights you put on when you get the gun home. Tried the XS sights years back when the company was called Ashley Express. They lasted exactly 50 rounds and went in trash. I replaced them with Heinie straight eights and they've been there fourteen years.
Nice.
I'm going to try my hand at the glock night sights. I'm hoping for good results.
Glockman1968
03-02-13, 13:31
I've had these on a Glock21 Gen4 for about a year and have been happy with the practical accuracy. I recently tried a 10in steel plate at about 40 yards and was able to get hits after realizing a 6 oclock hold was needed. I'm not saying these are the end all be all, but for me they work, for now. YMMV
GUNSLINGER733
03-02-13, 16:56
When you say something like, "Shot fine at 25yds" we are interested in what that actually means. To some, "shot fine" simply means they hit a 12X18 IPDA B zone. :bad:
For me, I want sights that will allow me to shoot 3" or better at 25yds.
The XS sights are commonly viewed as a waste (as they are only good for close up work). If they work for you, drive on...
C4
This...
I'd like to see what a 25 yard group by itself will look like with these super sights
misanthropist
03-02-13, 17:31
I do not do well with them but I do shoot with a guy who is probably more accurate at 25m with his XS than I am with my Trijicons.
My conclusion is that it is POSSIBLE to train around the deficiencies of these sights, but I think it's difficult.
XS Sights have to be one of the most polarized items in shooting. Folks either love 'em or hate 'em, with little room in between.
Repeat: "First and foremost, these are not target sights...
they are not optimized for that purpose."
If you want tight groups at distance, there are much better alternatives.
So why keep evaluating them on a task (e.g. 25 yards) they are not optimized to perform? That's not so different than comparing a 4x4 truck to a sports car.
A more productive debate might be are XS sights any better than another sight at 7-15 yards.
XS Sights have to be one of the most polarized items in shooting. Folks either love 'em or hate 'em, with little room in between.
Repeat: "First and foremost, these are not target sights...
they are not optimized for that purpose."
If you want tight groups at distance, there are much better alternatives.
So why keep evaluating them on a task (e.g. 25 yards) they are not optimized to perform? That's not so different than comparing a 4x4 truck to a sports car.
A more productive debate might be are XS sights any better than another sight at 7-15 yards.
I don't have target sights on any of my pistols. They are all setup to allow me to put fast and accurate rounds on target from 50-0yds.
There is no speed difference between XS sights and say Ameriglo PRO's or Trijicon HD's. There is a difference between the accuracy capabilities of the XS sights and the ones I mentioned.
I encourage anyone that thinks the XS sights are a good idea to attend an advanced pistol class from the likes of Hackathorn, Vickers or Defoor and let us know how they worked out for you.
C4
Nephrology
03-03-13, 09:03
I don't have target sights on any of my pistols. They are all setup to allow me to put fast and accurate rounds on target from 50-0yds.
There is no speed difference between XS sights and say Ameriglo PRO's or Trijicon HD's. There is a difference between the accuracy capabilities of the XS sights and the ones I mentioned.
I encourage anyone that thinks the XS sights are a good idea to attend an advanced pistol class from the likes of Hackathorn, Vickers or Defoor and let us know how they worked out for you.
C4
Do you find any disadvantage to the .140" wide front sights on sights like the Ameriglo Hacks, for example? I do not do enough shooting at 25yd to know if I am hindered by them, as I have enough progress of my own to make before I start blaming my sights for the groups I am capable of making at 25yd...
Urban_Redneck
03-03-13, 09:07
I dislike the analogy with express sights on a dangerous game rifle, almost all such rifles are also equipped with a folding leaf (leaves) that permit more precise and repeatable placement of the front bead in a more constrained (most often a "U") notch. The longer sighting radius on a rifle also increases precision.
Training and ability certainly can mitigate the XS sights shortcomings beyond 10y, but IMHO, no more than a likewise, trained and able shooter is able to make fast and good hits inside 10y without anything more and often less, than a "flash" sight picture.
My $0.02, pick your poison.
With any new sight system practice is a must. To those of you with experience on these...would practice help at 25yds? Are you expecting great groups without a couple hundred rounds for familiarity?(honest question, not being sarcastic)
I ask because my trijicon glock sights are crap after 13 years and I need to change them. I was considering these xs sights. This is for my daily duty carry btw a G21.
Do you find any disadvantage to the .140" wide front sights on sights like the Ameriglo Hacks, for example? I do not do enough shooting at 25yd to know if I am hindered by them, as I have enough progress of my own to make before I start blaming my sights for the groups I am capable of making at 25yd...
It is harder to shoot 2-3" groups for certain, but is doable.
C4
I encourage anyone that thinks the XS sights are a good idea to attend an advanced pistol class from the likes of Hackathorn, Vickers or Defoor and let us know how they worked out for you.
I note that you picked the ones that typically go toward the accuracy side of the equation.
XS Sights are what you make of them, you can make fairly accurate shots out to 50+ yards if you understand how to aim at that distance. The POI moves up through the dot to reach a point on the top of the dot at 25 yards.
Personally I no longer use XS Big Dots as Trijicon HDs provide the same close in speed with faster accuracy (not saying more accurate simply faster for the same accuracy) at longer distances. But XS Big Dots are great sights as long as you understand their limitations.
I note that you picked the ones that typically go toward the accuracy side of the equation.
XS Sights are what you make of them, you can make fairly accurate shots out to 50+ yards if you understand how to aim at that distance. The POI moves up through the dot to reach a point on the top of the dot at 25 yards.
Personally I no longer use XS Big Dots as Trijicon HDs provide the same close in speed with faster accuracy (not saying more accurate simply faster for the same accuracy) at longer distances. But XS Big Dots are great sights as long as you understand their limitations.
Actually, I didn't. People that are heavy into accuracy do NOT select front sights that are .140. Even Mr. Hackathorn will tell you that his sights (the Ameriglo PRO) work best at 15yds and in and you really have to work to shoot groups at 25yds.
I have shot XS sights and believe that the compromise is simply too great to be of any value to me.
When people select sights for the gun they are going to be their life on, they need stay in the middle (meaning not too big and not too small). This way, you can make accurate shots at distance (not too big) and be fast with them at close range (not too small).
C4
Actually, I didn't. People that are heavy into accuracy do NOT select front sights that are .140. Even Mr. Hackathorn will tell you that his sights (the Ameriglo PRO) work best at 15yds and in and you really have to work to shoot groups at 25yds.
I have shot XS sights and believe that the compromise is simply too great to be of any value to me.
Shot is very different from embraced and used for a couple of years exclusively. XS Sights aren't something that someone that has been using notch and post sights can pick up and evaluate it's worth in a few range sessions.
When people select sights for the gun they are going to be their life on, they need stay in the middle (meaning not too big and not too small). This way, you can make accurate shots at distance (not too big) and be fast with them at close range (not too small).
I agree to an extent, but your reasons for the sizes are backward.
If properly setup, ie the impact is at right at edge of the front sight at 25 yards (or your chosen distance beyond 25 yards), it is about the ratio of rear sight to front sight. For speed shooting you want a very visible front sight, that is much smaller in size ratio than the notch. For accuracy you want a much tighter sight picture.
Now where the idea that small front sights are slow is because with exception of fiber optics they aren't very visible. It took wider front sight to fit a tritium tube, and enough paint to be visible. Combine that with the fact that few fixed sights are zeroed properly, so the POI is somewhere in the middle of the fight sight height wise, you need thin front sights to see your target on longer distance shots.
OTOH in competition where adjustable sights aren't unusual and fitting fixed sights isn't unheard of, for speed oriented competition like USPSA you will see most of the younger shooters (ie good eyes) with thin fiber optic front sights, and wide 10-8 or Warren Tactical rear sights. While for accuracy oriented matches like Bianchi Cup you see tighter notches, and thicker front sights (except TGO he used a thin front sight and an extremely tight notch for Bianchi last year).
To illustrate this for people that may not have seen common competition sights here are common night sights based on my opinion of their sight ratios:
Too Tight: Truglo TFOs
Medium: Trijicon normal night sights
About right: Trijicon HD
Too loose: XS Sights (big dot or otherwise)
Anyways since I am seen as a nobody, and I have no credentials for people to take what I am saying from experience and interfacing with my mentors, you can see this concept illustrated also on Dawson Precision's sight.
Shot is very different from embraced and used for a couple of years exclusively. XS Sights aren't something that someone that has been using notch and post sights can pick up and evaluate it's worth in a few range sessions.
Luckily for me, I am a good enough shooter, that I can quickly figure out what is crap and what isn't. If I doubt my own ability, I have some of the most experienced shooters on the planet to bounce my opinion against (and they all tell me that XS sights are crap).
C4
brushy bill
03-03-13, 15:18
With any new sight system practice is a must. To those of you with experience on these...would practice help at 25yds? Are you expecting great groups without a couple hundred rounds for familiarity?(honest question, not being sarcastic)
I ask because my trijicon glock sights are crap after 13 years and I need to change them. I was considering these xs sights. This is for my daily duty carry btw a G21.
Sample of one, but I put a concerted effort into making these work and I couldn't. You also have a very experienced shooter (Grant) saying these weren't something he cared for, and if you look at other postings this forum by very credible sources, you'll find the same. These sights just aren't (IMHO) worth the trouble when you can find a much better balance (again, refer to Grant's thread as he summarized it pretty well) that works better all around. YMMV.
montanadave
03-03-13, 15:29
After cataract surgery, pistol sights can be a PITA. I had an instructor with some age-related presbyobia share his solution: an XS Big Dot front site with a slightly modified Novak rear site which allowed the dot to rest right into the U-shaped notch.
Not for everybody, I'm sure. And certainly a compromise. But for those with some vision problems, a very nice solution.
Glockman1968
03-03-13, 20:11
XS Sights have to be one of the most polarized items in shooting. Folks either love 'em or hate 'em, with little room in between.
So true.
As a sample of one, I find I can get the hits required to defend myself without reservation to 25 yrds. For me, they are very fast to aquire and engage. One example is a drill we run whereby we start at about the 15yd line with our back to the target. Hear the beep, turn while unholstering, and engage using failure to stop drill.
I've never failed to get hits to the thoratic cavity or the medula oblongata. By the time my non pivot foot is planted, I'm firing. These sights, again for me, are plenty fast to aquire accurately at what some folks would consider "average self defense ranges".
I'm no expert by any means and these are certainly not for everyone as others here and elsewhere have stated. I've gotten used to them and am now comfortable in my decision to go with these sights. YMMV
GUNSLINGER733
03-03-13, 20:25
Hell I just removed my rear 10-8. Fast as greased thunder bolts:/
Sights are a uniquely personal choice. What works for you may not work for others. Period. Advice is one thing, but I don't care who does or who doesn't like Brand X of sights or Brand Y of sights. It just doesn't matter. Saying one sight up sucks versus another is akin to pissing in the wind, and it doesn't matter how hard you push the stream. It's pointless.
All that really matters is how accurate and fast you are. If you are accurate and fast with Brand X, rock them, and don't give a damn what others say. If you aren't accurate and fast, find something.
Five_Point_Five_Six
03-04-13, 06:57
Even though I have my suspicions about them, I would still like to try a set to see what I could do with them.
Sights are a uniquely personal choice. What works for you may not work for others. Period. Advice is one thing, but I don't care who does or who doesn't like Brand X of sights or Brand Y of sights. It just doesn't matter. Saying one sight up sucks versus another is akin to pissing in the wind, and it doesn't matter how hard you push the stream. It's pointless.
All that really matters is how accurate and fast you are. If you are accurate and fast with Brand X, rock them, and don't give a damn what others say. If you aren't accurate and fast, find something.
I understand that we can all "like what we like." The only problem is that not everyone:
1. Has enough knowledge to make an informed (educated) opinion.
2. Think that if they can keep rounds in a 12X18 "B" IPDA target @ 25yds, that they are "accurate."
3. Don't own a shot timer so have no idea if they are "fast" with them.
A good read on opinions: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19307&highlight=opinion
C4
I appreciate the way this discussion has gone and the viewpoints expressed. Thought provoking.
A couple of last asides, that are probably a bit disjointed.
Different viewpoints are involved here. A high order service professional might expend thousands upon thousands of rounds a year. A line soldier/Marine or law enforcement individual might get... what? a few hundred? a thousand rounds? A civilian may get a few hundred rounds a year on an irregular basis. In any event there are great differences between groups. The best tool for someone from one group, may not be the best tool for the other.
My most probable scenario for using a handgun to defend myself is more civilian CCW based than professional. My nightmare is most likely to occur in a dark environment, close and fast. Trading advantages of precision for advantage of speed seems a reasonable trade for the most expected scenario.
Practice, range, and competition stress is different than actual SHTF stress. IRRC, Vickers says your group size doubles in real SHTF. This echos the research I have read on this subject. Fine motor skills etc. degrade, so factoring that into tool choice makes sense to me.
What is your individual lowest level of competency? For example, if I roll out of bed from the bump-in-the-night, the come-as-you-are affair for me means no contact lens and therefore only fair vision. Fair vision is a low level that I have to consider. So the ping-pong ball front sight is a help.
We all have to work within the limits of what we can cobble together. Even if you can find the individual parts, it is only chance they would merge together to have anything like a POA to POI. If I had the money to have exactly what I wanted fabricated it would probably be a Trjicon HD front sight or the XS smaller dot, and a rear sight with a wide U-shaped notch and a tritium white vertical stripe below the notch. Anybody know where i can order that off the shelf for a Walther PPQ and Kahr PM9?
With regards.
I'd love to see the results of a variety of drills shot with standard sights and big dots. Obviously this needs someone with a shot timer and without an emotional investment in the equipment being used.
I always see speed being touted as the reason for big dots, but never any times...
Add this to the fact that the fastest and most accurate shooters in the world...don't use them and I have some concerns.
I'd love to see the results of a variety of drills shot with standard sights and big dots. Obviously this needs someone with a shot timer and without an emotional investment in the equipment being used.
I always see speed being touted as the reason for big dots, but never any times...
Add this to the fact that the fastest and most accurate shooters in the world...don't use them and I have some concerns.
This. If they were as fast as people think, every competition shooter would use them.
The fact that no high end firearms instructor (Hackathorn, Vickers, Defoor, etc) uses them is another clue.
C4
Average beginner shooter here.
My glock 19 came with the XS big dots, at first I figured that they made sense and I had only used the stock G19 U sights before.
My trip to the range showed otherwise, I didn't feel nearly as confident shooting at 7 yards, as i'm still working on getting a sub 4-inch group at 7 yards before moving out to 8 or 9. The other day I did a little test between the two sights, I rented a glock 19 with the stock U sights and fired it back to back with my 19 with XS big dots. Both 19's were gen 3, the only difference is that mine doesn't have the BTF issue that the rental did.
My grouping with my sights were tighter, however, it was definitely a bit to the right. I was shooting at the body silhouette target and my group was at the ear portion of the head. With the rental 19, I was aiming at the chest, I had 6 shots in about a 3 inch group and the other 4 were scattered a few inches away to the top and left.
Contrary to my groupings, I did feel that the stock sights are better than the XS big dots. Especially for what I do, range shooting. I do, however, feel that if you are very new to shooting, and you only purchased a gun for home defense and never go to the range, then the XS big dots will probably aid you if and when you do fire the gun in that "SHTF" situation. My grouping was probably better because I had become accustomed to using these sights, which at this point, I feel are handicapping me when I switch over to a more traditional sight, like the glock night sights. There's no doubt in my mind that I can make the same, if not better grouping, with the stock glock sights, if given at least one more magazine to shoot through before conducting my little test.
Just by looking at these sights, you know that they can't be nearly as precise as even the stock sights are, let alone 10-8's, trijicon HD's etc...There's a huge golf ball that you put on an i, that huge golf ball will cover up the whole target at a distance greater than 20 yards.
In conclusion, in my new-shooter-opinion, the XS big dots introduce a handicap that will give the owner who only has a gun for HD and never goes to the range; an upper hand over shooting with stock glock sights. I've shot probably close to 600 rounds through the XS big dots and probably 300 through the various pistols using traditional sights.
thopkins22
03-04-13, 13:13
Years ago, they were the first set of sights I put on a Glock. I was never able to be very accurate with them, and the time it took to get them lined up well enough to make a pseudo accurate shot was longer than I saved from being able to track them.
They WILL be easier to track in recoil as you first start thinking about that concept...but it's completely doable with regular sights, and then once you are actually seeing your front sight lift, recoil at your face, and return forward then you will be glad you had a notch and post.
I found that I can do everything I could do with Big Dots using Warren Tactical sights(both the Tactical and the Sevigny Competition,) and a lot that I couldn't.
I understand that we can all "like what we like." The only problem is that not everyone:
1. Has enough knowledge to make an informed (educated) opinion.
2. Think that if they can keep rounds in a 12X18 "B" IPDA target @ 25yds, that they are "accurate."
3. Don't own a shot timer so have no idea if they are "fast" with them.
A good read on opinions: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19307&highlight=opinion
C4
Granted, not everyone has enough knowledge to make an informed opinion. That pendulum swings both ways. How many people trash the sights that haven't used them and parrot what flavor of the month instructor says? How many instructors have made a commitment to trying them, and not just 50 rounds and toss them?
2. While there are people that are content with B-Zone hits, again, there are people who are not happy with B-Zones and XS Sights, just like there are those that are fine with B-Zones and normal sights.
3. How many people that have XS Sights do have a timer, shoot under said timer, and do well? I don't know. Neither do you. Nobody does. That said the same question can still be asked about those with normal sights.
This. If they were as fast as people think, every competition shooter would use them.
The fact that no high end firearms instructor (Hackathorn, Vickers, Defoor, etc) uses them is another clue.
C4
Not every competition shooter uses the same gun, the same rig, the same caliber, or the same ammo.
It still doesn't matter who uses what. All that matters is what works for you, and what doesn't. If XS Sights work for someone, high end instructor be damned, the XS Sights still work for someone. K-Swiss shoes work for me, I didn't pick them because of Kenny Powers. Blue Force Gear slings work for me, I didn't pick them because of Larry Vickers. My 10-8 rear sight works for me, I didn't choose them because of Hilton Yam.
Granted, not everyone has enough knowledge to make an informed opinion. That pendulum swings both ways. How many people trash the sights that haven't used them and parrot what flavor of the month instructor says? How many instructors have made a commitment to trying them, and not just 50 rounds and toss them?
This happens (of course), but from the instructors I train with, they can spot a lemon from a mile away (whether 50rds or 500rds are fired).
2. While there are people that are content with B-Zone hits, again, there are people who are not happy with B-Zones and XS Sights, just like there are those that are fine with B-Zones and normal sights.
No one should be content with "B" zone hits.
3. How many people that have XS Sights do have a timer, shoot under said timer, and do well? I don't know. Neither do you. Nobody does. That said the same question can still be asked about those with normal sights.
We see people running this sights in training classes and DO shoot against a timer. To date, I have never seen a studenting running these do well at distance or beat anyone at speed.
C4
Not every competition shooter uses the same gun, the same rig, the same caliber, or the same ammo.
True. They do have one thing in common though, they don't use these sights. This is commonly referred to as a clue! ;)
It still doesn't matter who uses what. All that matters is what works for you, and what doesn't. If XS Sights work for someone, high end instructor be damned, the XS Sights still work for someone. K-Swiss shoes work for me, I didn't pick them because of Kenny Powers. Blue Force Gear slings work for me, I didn't pick them because of Larry Vickers. My 10-8 rear sight works for me, I didn't choose them because of Hilton Yam.
Actually it does. You are looking at gear and gun selection as a "popularity" contest. While this can happen, but professional competition shooters and gun fighters pick guns and gear that will get the job done. They do not use these sights. Why? Because they see no benefits to them and a lot of weaknesses.
C4
This happens (of course), but from the instructors I train with, they can spot a lemon from a mile away (whether 50rds or 500rds are fired).
Oh well. I would still be leery about taking anyone's advise on something especially as personal as sights from someone who hasn't made a concerted effort to learn them.
Its one thing to have an educated opinion, its another to just have an opinion.
No one should be content with "B" zone hits.
Never said otherwise. What I said was its true there are XS Sights users happy with B-Zones, but there are notch and post sight users that feel the same way. OTOH there are XS Sights users that are not happy with B-Zones, just like there are notch and post users that are not happy B-Zones.
We see people running this sights in training classes and DO shoot against a timer. To date, I have never seen a studenting running these do well at distance or beat anyone at speed.
C4
And I have seen people that use/d these sights that did shoot against timers, do/did use them in classes (student and teacher) good work with them.
True. They do have one thing in common though, they don't use these sights. This is commonly referred to as a clue! ;)
No that's called a preference. They all have different choices in gear, guns, ammo, etc.
Actually it does. You are looking at gear and gun selection as a "popularity" contest. While this can happen, but professional competition shooters and gun fighters pick guns and gear that will get the job done. They do not use these sights. Why? Because they see no benefits to them and a lot of weaknesses.
C4
I disagree. I am not looking at anything as a popularity contest. Notice I have not dropped a name in this discussion, other than saying the name wasn't a reason for a choice. I am looking at this as an individual. What works for some, doesn't work for others. What works for me, may not work for you. That's how I look at this.
I can tell you first hand there are several local police officers, both beat and SWAT, that use XS Sights. They are gunfighters. I know and knew several people in the training community that have been down range that use them. It still doesn't matter. What works for them didn't work for me. What works for you, or any other instructor, may not work for others.
I found that I can do everything I could do with Big Dots using Warren Tactical sights(both the Tactical and the Sevigny Competition, and a lot that I couldn't.
That's what matters.
The questions that must be posed are:
"What does one gain by using XS sights over conventional Notch and Post sights?"
"What does one give up by using XS sights over conventional Notch and Post sights"
There are A LOT of examples of performance loss and no examples of performance gain.
Sights are sights, whether you are involved in "combat" or not.
Competition is a proving ground, plain and simple. It is about fast, accurate hits. Not a single top lever competitor uses XS sights. From a RAW shooting mechanics standpoint, i would say that is pretty indicative of an issue with the sight design...
Once one is involved in "combat" or other Rob Pincus related stupidity, your criteria surrounding a good set of sights doesnt suddenly change.
montanadave
03-05-13, 14:11
There are A LOT of examples of performance loss and no examples of performance gain.
In general, I will defer to the consensus of those more experienced and knowledgeable than myself and agree with this statement.
However, as I pointed out in my previous post, there are some of us with specific visual handicaps who can benefit from XS sights (or at least a combination incorporating their Big Dot front sight).
Special circumstances often require unique solutions and it's nice to have options available.
In general, I will defer to the consensus of those more experienced and knowledgeable than myself and agree with this statement.
However, as I pointed out in my previous post, there are some of us with specific visual handicaps who can benefit from XS sights (or at least a combination incorporating their Big Dot front sight).
Special circumstances often require unique solutions and it's nice to have options available.
Agreed, 100% but didnt you also mention that you paired the XS big dot front with a conventional notch based rear sight?
montanadave
03-05-13, 14:59
Agreed, 100% but didnt you also mention that you paired the XS big dot front with a conventional notch based rear sight?
Correct. It's a Novak rear sight and the gunsmith that fitted the sights dremeled out the U-notch just enough to match the Big Dot.
RancidSumo
03-05-13, 17:10
Correct. It's a Novak rear sight and the gunsmith that fitted the sights dremeled out the U-notch just enough to match the Big Dot.
I'd say that is completely different then. I don't think anyone here really has too much of a problem with the huge front sight (although for most I'm sure it isn't optimal), the issue is with that abomination of a "rear sight"
.
threeheadeddog
03-05-13, 19:32
I dont understsnd the appeal. FWIW i use all black ameriglo's(i think, its been a while since i bought them) with the top square of front sight painted orange and the top of the rear painted orange creating an orange horizontal line at extension. At close distance I could not shoot faster with my eyes closed and a target the size of a barn. How will these make me faster? It would seem most ideal to have sights that are most benificial at the most difficult task(precision).
for me
-sights that are only equal in speed at close range but less precise at distance...no go
Travelingchild
03-05-13, 21:45
..., regardless of age, centers on how the body works. For instance it is easier for a human to align vertically than horizontally. That is not opinion, it is scientific fact..
In actual practice Nope
Entering a room Look left to right then up and down..
One of the most useful gauges to a pilot artificial HORIZON.
Landing a parachute checking the actual horizon to aid in determine distance to ground. If you just look up and down It can be ugly on the landing.
Queasy due to inner ear or sea sickness, look to the horizon for reference and stability.
Sample of One.:smile:
In actual practice Nope
Entering a room Look left to right then up and down..
One of the most useful gauges to a pilot artificial HORIZON.
Landing a parachute checking the actual horizon to aid in determine distance to ground.
The point is that visually aligning objects is easier vertically rather than horizontally. That was not a statement of opinion; clinical studies have proven this.
This field is called Human Engineering in case anyone is interested.
For example, if you want a road sign legible at a certain distance, what size should the letters be? And actually there is a huge body of research related to aircraft instrument display design.
The capabilities of the human body is used to determine design. Tradition aside, this would seem a good thing in tool/instrument/weapon design.
No one should be content with "B" zone hits.
C4
End of thread if you ask me.
In my experience the XS "Big Dot" is effective for a shotgun bead and that is it. Of course, that is a totally different subject for a totally different platform.
I do have experience with XS(I borrowed a G19 to do some drills from an aquaintance), and it was apparant that they just suck in general and are in my opinion, actually DETRIMENTAL for certain drills.
Those being...Dot Torture past 5yds, Press Six, 99 drill aggregate, FAST drill, and several others.
End of thread if you ask me.
Not really, Grant demonstrates again that he is using example that he doesn't really understand. Like the sights example that I corrected him on a couple of pages ago.
There are no "B" zones on an IDPA target, all scoring zones are expressed in a numeric negative value of "X down."
And even if he was thinking of IPSC targets, hitting the "B" zone is considered a good hit at 25 yards as it is the rest of the head area outside the eye box (called the "upper A zone").
And then you give examples of standards test that I've done well with using Big Dots. When I was shooting big dots I had shot many if not all of those standards tests, and I never felt overly held back by XS Big Dots.
People in the gun industry get too wrapped up in brands, and preferences. I think we need to spend less time on the internet arguing about brands and more time shooting or dry firing those brands.
I do have experience with XS(I borrowed a G19 to do some drills from an aquaintance),
"Borrowing.. to do some drills.." is neither a fair nor informed experience. Here's why:
Big Dot express sights absolutely take some getting used to.
After shooting post & notch for literally decades, it took some time, practice, and reprogramming for me to "dot the i" instead of trying to use the rear sight like a notch. And like most new tasks or skills, it feels awkward and clumsy at first. Remember the first time you drove a car?
You are using a whole different system of reference. If you just pick up a pistol with these sights and shoot some rounds, you will automatically try to reference horizontally like you are accustomed to with post & notch. You'll do it without consciously realizing it.
Without any question or equivocation, if you try to align these sights using the horizontal reference of the rear sight, you will fail. Period.
Align the rear sight stripe to the front sight vertically, and positive things start to happen.
I have said on a couple of posts here and elsewhere, that dry fire exercise with these for a period of time before going to a range will save you several boxes of ammo, as well as a ton of frustration. It was only after dry fire exercise that things "clicked" in my using these sights.
I don't believe Big Dots came down with Moses from the mountain. I don't "love" them. They work better for me, for what I perceive my needs to be. I know they are not for everybody and are not the universal solution.
It has been pointed out that experts do not use these sights. For an expert to abandon something that works well for them, for a gain that has not been scientifically quantified and might only be an imperceptible gain for an expert, is not reasonable.
I do think the only fair and meaningful test would involve non-shooters with no previous skill in a clinical setting.
I am not trying to convert anyone and don't mean to step on anyone's toes; just sharing my experience with other folks. Learning from others is why I frequent this forum.
People in the gun industry get too wrapped up in brands, and preferences. I think we need to spend less time on the internet arguing about brands and more time shooting or dry firing those brands.
I agree with the shooting and dry fire part, however...
People get wrapped around the axle because these sight are marketed as "combat sights" which is pure shtick and absolute bullshit. There is no such thing as a "combat sight".
Take it one step further and you have a bunch of clueless morons defending the sights and their lack of accuracy by dismissing their deficiencies under testing circumstances as being invalid because said test is not "combat".
If no one questions these goobertards, other goobertards jump right on the bandwagon and parrot the same idiocy. These people arent dry firing OR training either so i would say they are their own unique demographic of stupid.
There is an overarching desire to HELP and to better the community as a whole. Oftentimes, XS sight users or anyone running a product that has a lot of detractors resort to the immediate defensive mindset to stand up for their choices instead of simply saying "it works for me, i see your points but they are not applicable to my skill level".
I get ribbed constantly for running Warren sights instead of 10-8's. My response is "these work for me" not eight hundred and sixty reasons as to why they're better.
Now, to interject a bit of my personal opinion again. As i mentioned prior, anything can be made to work but the simple fact of the matter is that XS sights offer nothing, absolutely nothing in the way of improvement in sight acquisition and the results speak for themselves.
Lastly, for purposes of competition i will sometimes TAKE a C zone sight picture at 15-20 yards depending on the course of fire. With XS sights there is NO option to TAKE that sight picture as the entire sight picture is...well...imprecise. Grants perspective is that from a self defense standpoint, you NEVER, EVER take what you can get unless it is your last resort.
Magz, I think it fair in light of your comments to ask about details of the extent of your personal experience with XS sights. How long did you run them? Maybe a rough idea as to how many rounds you shot with them?
Also, "a C zone sight picture at 15-20 yards" is a significantly different circumstance than most published descriptions of the typical defensive shooting. If you can say, it would be interesting to know more about how often that scenario occurs.
Magz, I think it fair in light of your comments to ask about details of the extent of your personal experience with XS sights. How long did you run them? Maybe a rough idea as to how many rounds you shot with them?
Also, "a C zone sight picture at 15-20 yards" is a significantly different circumstance than most published descriptions of the typical defensive shooting. If you can say, it would be interesting to know more about how often that scenario occurs.
I'm not Magz, but I'll add something to the discussion. For purposes of establishing my experience level and why I made the choice I did, I'll give you a quick summation. I'm a 23 year police officer and SWAT member in one of the largest cities in the US, a firearms instructor for said agency's regional academy, marksmanship development sergeant for the aforementioned SWAT team and have been a competitive shooter for over 20 years. As I stated earlier in this thread, I ran the XS sights on my Glock back when the company was called Ashley Express (c. 1990's). I fired exactly 50 rounds and took the sights off for what I believe are very valid reasons.
1. My established times across a multitude of drills are very well known to me, having shot those drills thousands of times. With the XS sights, every one of those benchmark times that I use to gauge my proficiency level was markedly slower. Just to be clear, I can shoot those drills with Glock factory plastic sights, Trijicons, Heinies, and other brands within pretty close margins from a cold start. As in, put three or four Glock 19's on a table at the range, all with different sights, and pick up each one in succession and shoot the same drill. The XS sights were the slowest by far past 10 yards. At 5 yards it was a wash with all of them. I actually did this on several occasions when evaluating sights at various times.
2. The XS sights past 10 yards were also the least accurate. There's an eminent instructor that participates on this forum who's mantra is: "Speed is Fine. Accuracy is Final." That about sums up what it means to be a "combat shooter" or whatever you want to call it. Accuracy is king and for me, beyond 10 yards, the XS sights are not optimal. My groups were noticeably larger and, for example, a failure drill at 10 yards was an exercise in frustration. That drill is not very difficult with any of the sight systems that I mentioned earlier for the most part. Some are faster than others, but accuracy is not an issue. With the XS, I'm not shooting at a target's head. I'm shooting at a spot where I "think" the target's head is because the big dot has covered not just the head, but most of the target too. That's entirely unacceptable. We are all of us responsible for the rounds we send downrange. A thirty foot failure drill might not be within your skillset, but nonetheless, running a sight that actually creates a problem that sights are supposed to solve is not ideal for me. That problem is accurate targeting. If you are shooting at a place where you think the target is, you're not really aiming. You're essentially engaging a target with indirect fire.
This is just my opinion, so take it for what it is, but I think there are better choices out there for pistol sights than the XS. My definition of better would be something that is a marked improvement in speed and accuracy across various distances using established benchmarks. The XS sights are not that ticket for me. Could you "get used" to them? Sure, but the issue remains that I'm still throwing rounds downrange with what I feel is a poor sight picture.
DireWulf, thank you for your years of service; I do not think I could do your job. And I would quickly acknowledge your credentials and firearms achievements are far superior to mine.
I have no police experience but would think in particular for a SWAT officer, and perhaps even a line police officer, there could indeed be a need to make that "C" zone shot at distance. Big Dots would not be my first choice for that task.
I do not take what you said as implying you performed a significant test, and I do not think you meant it that way. I think most folks would agree 50 rounds is not a significant test. I obviously do not know the full circumstances, but reading between the lines I'd guess you have shot them for more than 50 rounds over time and probably tried them at various times over time. Bottom line is at least you actually have shot them and you did not like them.
One point I touched on previously is that most of us are used to post & notch and that most folks probably cannot just immediately and effortlessly transition to Big Dots. Everyone is different and my experience is likely not anyone else's. I cannot give a precise round count, but I would guess it took me a couple of hundred rounds and dry fire over a few weeks to get me to the point I did not consciously have to remind myself to "dot the i". At some point it "clicked".
In candor, the idea of a proficient professional re-conditioning a key skill is not something I would think most would take upon themselves lightly. The risk of it scrambling or confusing an existing key skill is lot to put on the line. I suspect if you or someone of your comparable skill level, for whatever reason, committed to practice with these sights and conditioned themselves to them, results would be considerable better than your initial test drive. Regardless, I would never expect comparable precision at distance.
No one has said Big Dots are right for everybody nor appropriate in every instance. That does not mean however that they do not have a use and a place. I had, and have, vision issues. They are easier for me to see and use. I think they are optimized for the most probable situation in which I would have to use them in defense as a civilian. They work for me.
You can't just pull an invisible elephant every post, so Flip it: what evidence would be acceptable to indicate XS sight inferiority? Any whatsoever?
You can't just pull an invisible elephant every post, so Flip it: what evidence would be acceptable to indicate XS sight inferiority? Any whatsoever?
Define the task, use objective means, and a scientific study could measure results. I'd honestly like to see that and find it curious that to my knowledge it has not been done.
If it is shooting at a stationary target at 25 yards, I am confident Big Dots would do worse than average.
If it is 7 yards, dark, and a moving target with limited exposure time, then I would expect Big Dots to do better than average.
What do you think?
threeheadeddog
03-07-13, 16:29
I WANT TO ASK THIS CLEARLY, AND WOULD LIKE A CLEAR ANSWER.
How can XS sights make someone shoot faster "up close", or at "combat distance", or at a "likely defensive distance" than a traditional sight when a practiced individual can shoot a pistol with traditional sights at 7yrds at a 8" target AS FAST AS HE CAN PULL THE TRIGGER.
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Sights are added to a firearm to aid in precision. A person does not need to use them to their fullest to hit a target if he/she does not want to. I have made MANY MANY -1 zone hits in IDPA because I decided my sight picture was "good enough" for a hit. Had I had less precise sights I could not have made more difficult shots when I felt that a -1 wasnt good enough.
There are a good many ways to make the front sight easier to pick up in traditional sights, as well as ways to make them "dot-the-i" that doesnt detract from the added benifit of having sights that can be use precisly if needed.
I WANT TO ASK THIS CLEARLY, AND WOULD LIKE A CLEAR ANSWER.
How can XS sights make someone shoot faster "up close", or at "combat distance", or at a "likely defensive distance" than a traditional sight when a practiced individual can shoot a pistol with traditional sights at 7yrds at a 8" target AS FAST AS HE CAN PULL THE TRIGGER.
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Sights are added to a firearm to aid in precision. A person does not need to use them to their fullest to hit a target if he/she does not want to. I have made MANY MANY -1 zone hits in IDPA because I decided my sight picture was "good enough" for a hit. Had I had less precise sights I could not have made more difficult shots when I felt that a -1 wasnt good enough.
There are a good many ways to make the front sight easier to pick up in traditional sights, as well as ways to make them "dot-the-i" that doesnt detract from the added benifit of having sights that can be use precisly if needed.
Simple premise.
*dons snake oil salesman coat*
"Under duress while engaged in combat, the XS front sight makes you faster due to its highly visible front bead and uniquely shaped rear combat tactical wedge."
See, i used a bunch of bullshit buzz words and made something up to sell a product. Now all i need are a bunch of cracked out shills to hock my product...
Anyway, its been a while and im getting old but in 2008 i ran XS big dots on an M&P 9mm for between 7500 and 15,000 rounds. I know that is a broad range but i no longer have my M&P log books and i simply dont remember how much i shot that year. It could be more than that, i simply dont recall or care to. I literally bought my XS sights because at the time, i was a tactinerd ballsucker that thought 5.11 pants made me shoot better.
Once i actually LEARNED something about trigger control, true accuracy, timed standards and what a real sight picture was i tore the sights off and threw them in the trash. If i could have those 15,000 rounds back i would take them in a heart beat as i really do consider that first year of training almost worthless in regard to accuracy. I learned how to reload my pistol, how to present it but i had no understanding of sight tracking, largely in part to those horrific sights.
In a nutshell, once i stopped caring about all of the marketing shtick that convinced me to BUY xs sights and instead focused on pure, raw shooting fundamentals i saw a tremendous increase in ability and performance.
Real sights helped...obviously. :P
You can't just pull an invisible elephant every post, so Flip it: what evidence would be acceptable to indicate XS sight inferiority? Any whatsoever?
You have a rear sight with zero feedback. If you know anything about sight deviation and how much leeway you have with a good trigger press and a decent light bar ratio you KNOW what you can get away with.
The front sight itself is a less than stellar option as it has no defined points to line up with the edge of any standard notch sight. This leads to a CONSISTENT course sight picture instead of a refined, hard front sight focus with a DEFINED aiming point. More often than not you're simply plastering the BLOB over your target and pressing your trigger.
Low probability targets are a BITCH to hit with a front sight that large and headshots, in my eyes, are ALWAYS low probability targets no matter the distance.
Bottom line, the sights dont offer enough feedback at any distance...
I can't believe this horse isn't dead yet.
Larry Vickers
03-07-13, 21:32
To quote my good friend Ken Hackathorn 'XS sights are highly effective at ranges where you could point shoot' -
Another line I've heard Ken say 'If XS sights are so great why aren't all the top shooters using them ?'
The problem with XS sights isn't the big front dot, which has real merit, it is the shallow V notch rear sight
I personally think XS sights are lame and do not recommend them at all - with sights on the market like the Trijicon XD's anyone using XS sights needs to seriously rethink exactly what they are getting benefit wise that justifies using them
My call is nothing
Five_Point_Five_Six
03-08-13, 07:09
I literally bought my XS sights because at the time, i was a tactinerd ballsucker that thought 5.11 pants made me shoot better.
That literally made me strangle on my morning coffee.
To quote my good friend Ken Hackathorn 'XS sights are highly effective at ranges where you could point shoot' -
Another line I've heard Ken say 'If XS sights are so great why aren't all the top shooters using them ?'
The problem with XS sights isn't the big front dot, which has real merit, it is the shallow V notch rear sight
I personally think XS sights are lame and do not recommend them at all - with sights on the market like the Trijicon XD's anyone using XS sights needs to seriously rethink exactly what they are getting benefit wise that justifies using them
My call is nothing
You may say your call is nothing, but most folks, including myself, listen closely and consider your words seriously.
And your words here, give me pause.
Hackamore's comment paraphrased, highly effective where you may not need them, more clearly and succinctly says something I think some others were talking about in previous posts. This does resonate and I for one will give that some serious thought.
There is no question that the shallow notch is the principal issue with these sights. It could as well just be flat, because the rear stripe is what you get to reference and align.
As previously stated, I went to Big Dots because of vision issues. I shot them better than conventional post & notch because I can see the rear stripe. Precisely aligning a front post with a rear notch is simply beyond my uncorrected vision capability, because the rear sight is fuzzy. A lot of 50+ year old folks have this problem. Maybe that just means they were the best of a set of bad bargains for my sample of one.
To quote my good friend Ken Hackathorn 'XS sights are highly effective at ranges where you could point shoot' -
Another line I've heard Ken say 'If XS sights are so great why aren't all the top shooters using them ?'
The problem with XS sights isn't the big front dot, which has real merit, it is the shallow V notch rear sight
I personally think XS sights are lame and do not recommend them at all - with sights on the market like the Trijicon XD's anyone using XS sights needs to seriously rethink exactly what they are getting benefit wise that justifies using them
My call is nothing
This is exactly what I've learned using them and why I'm going to use something different on my G17 and change them out on my G19 as well.
However, my M&P 340 revolver came with an XS front sight and the way it fits in the rear notch is awesome. Any deviation in my grip and I can't see it. If XS could make a rear sight that duplicated this for semi auto pistols I think these sights would be a better option than what they are now.
Gentlemen, I did not want to open a new thread about M&P sights so I figured I would just ask this here, OP sorry for the quick hijack but it seems as though the general consensus is to off-load your XS sights.
I just got a new M&P Shield 9mm and wanted to change out the sights. I could not find HD Trijicons and have heard some great things about the AmeriGlo I Dot Pros with the orange/red circle around front tritium circle so I went ahead and ordered them. My Shield is the gun I carry the most because of the size and how accurate it is, it also serves as a BUG if I am carrying my PPQ 9mm. For this type of application I wanted your thoughts on the sights. Thank you in advance.
I can make a new thread I just figured I would save space.
Not really, Grant demonstrates again that he is using example that he doesn't really understand. Like the sights example that I corrected him on a couple of pages ago.
There are no "B" zones on an IDPA target, all scoring zones are
And even if he was thinking of IPSC targets, hitting the "B" zone is considered a good hit at 25 yards as it is the rest of the head area outside the eye box (called the "upper A zone").
And then you give examples of standards test that I've done well with using Big Dots. When I was shooting big dots I had shot many if not all of those standards tests, and I never felt overly held back by XS Big Dots.
People in the gun industry get too wrapped up in brands, and preferences. I think we need to spend less time on the internet arguing about brands and more time shooting or dry firing those brands.
LOL, "Grant" fully understands. Yes I know that "technically" IDPA doesn't have "zones," but everyone knows that I am talking about the 1 zone.
You are correct on at least one thing though, we do have preferences. Our pref is for sights that don't suck. ;)
C4
Gentlemen, I did not want to open a new thread about M&P sights so I figured I would just ask this here, OP sorry for the quick hijack but it seems as though the general consensus is to off-load your XS sights.
I just got a new M&P Shield 9mm and wanted to change out the sights. I could not find HD Trijicons and have heard some great things about the AmeriGlo I Dot Pros with the orange/red circle around front tritium circle so I went ahead and ordered them. My Shield is the gun I carry the most because of the size and how accurate it is, it also serves as a BUG if I am carrying my PPQ 9mm. For this type of application I wanted your thoughts on the sights. Thank you in advance.
I can make a new thread I just figured I would save space.
The Ameriglo PRO's (AKA Hackathorn's) are excellent.
C4
Thank you Grant, thats all I needed to hear.
LOL, "Grant" fully understands. Yes I know that "technically" IDPA doesn't have "zones," but everyone knows that I am talking about the 1 zone.
You are correct on at least one thing though, we do have preferences. Our pref is for sights that don't suck. ;)
No, no they don't. IDPA has zones, but they have no "B" zone. And in the sport that does have letter based zones the B zone at 25 yards is a good hit. Hell at speed a -1 hit is still a good hit at 25 yards. Not every situation calls sitting there and making little tiny groups.
I would also argue that perhaps it wasn't the "sucky" sights, but perhaps the person behind the gun? I can pick up a gun with virtually any notch and post sighting system (which XS is considered to be one), and make zero down or A zone hits out to 25 yards. In fact one of the most annoying things of that I experienced while using XS Sights was people like you telling me what I can't do, without actually seeing if I can do it.
Even though I've switched to Trijicon HDs for my night sights, I realized that instead of calling people stupid, and sucky. I let people show me what they can do, and if they can do well with whatever sighting system that they are currently using, and understand the limitations of that sighting system. Who am I to argue with what works for them?
Honestly, if XS sights allow newer shooters to shoot better - good on them.
If the shooter is going to shoot 100 rounds a year and put it back in the drawer, maybe they will have better luck in the event of a home invasion over notch and post (considering it's at "point shooting distance").
If the shooter continues to advance their shooting - there are a lot of good options which I'm sure they will find and begin using as they outgrow the XS.
I look at XS sights like the Glock Combat Holster. Is it a great holster? No. Are top shooters going to use it? No. Are trainers, military combatants, undercover operators going to use it? No. But it's better than most of the nylon and injection molded shit they sell at the local gun shop, so I often recommend this holster to new shooters.
ETA: I don't own XS Big Dots, have never owned them, have never shot them (that I'm aware of), and have absolutely zero interest in purchasing them.
No, no they don't. IDPA has zones, but they have no "B" zone. And in the sport that does have letter based zones the B zone at 25 yards is a good hit. Hell at speed a -1 hit is still a good hit at 25 yards. Not every situation calls sitting there and making little tiny groups.
Only YOU didn't know. Everyone else had zero issues with me referencing it the way I did.
Vickers & Hackathorn teach their students that under stress (like someone shooting at you), your NATURAL group size will double or triple! So if you are already shooting large groups (as your sights suck), you won't be getting ineffective hits.
I would also argue that perhaps it wasn't the "sucky" sights, but perhaps the person behind the gun? I can pick up a gun with virtually any notch and post sighting system (which XS is considered to be one), and make zero down or A zone hits out to 25 yards. In fact one of the most annoying things of that I experienced while using XS Sights was people like you telling me what I can't do, without actually seeing if I can do it.
We were just in a class where two of the shooters ran XS sights. They had difficulty putting rounds into tight areas (at relatively close distances) because the front sight covered the target area.
I am almost of the opinion now, that people that buy these stupid things in an effort to try and compensate for some other issue (which could be better addressed with QUALITY training.
Even though I've switched to Trijicon HDs for my night sights, I realized that instead of calling people stupid, and sucky. I let people show me what they can do, and if they can do well with whatever sighting system that they are currently using, and understand the limitations of that sighting system. Who am I to argue with what works for them?
This is all true, but "do well" is a relative term. How well did the shooter do on the 10/10/10 (passing score of 90 or above) drill or Kyle Defoor's pistol drill #1 (run 25yds to 25yd line and put 6 rounds into a B8 target with a score of 50 passing)??? If the passed all of these drills, I would tell them keep on using them if they like.
C4
Only YOU didn't know. Everyone else had zero issues with me referencing it the way I did.
No I think most people were unwilling to call you on it. I could guessimate what you mean because I know most of the dimensions of the targets off the top of my head.
Vickers & Hackathorn teach their students that under stress (like someone shooting at you), your NATURAL group size will double or triple! So if you are already shooting large groups (as your sights suck), you won't be getting ineffective hits.
And you can get some descent groups with XS Big Dot sights. But not every activity requires you to sit there shooting groups.
We were just in a class where two of the shooters ran XS sights. They had difficulty putting rounds into tight areas (at relatively close distances) because the front sight covered the target area.
I am almost of the opinion now, that people that buy these stupid things in an effort to try and compensate for some other issue (which could be better addressed with QUALITY training.
That happens with any wide front sight, with the POI is in the middle of the blade. You will have that issue with Trijicon HDs on some targets (the blade of the HD isn't much narrower than Big Dots).
And if it is a training issue, why do so many companies take XS Big Dots concept (Big visible front sight with a wide notch) and are making sights? Trijicon HD, Amerigo i-Dot Pro, and Ameriglo PRO all follow the same concept as XS Big Dot.
A more visible sighting system is the desire of many.
This is all true, but "do well" is a relative term. How well did the shooter do on the 10/10/10 (passing score of 90 or above) drill or Kyle Defoor's pistol drill #1 (run 25yds to 25yd line and put 6 rounds into a B8 target with a score of 50 passing)??? If the passed all of these drills, I would tell them keep on using them if they like.
With practice neither of those drills are excessively hard with Big Dots. Though I would that Defoor's pistol drill isn't easy for most shooters even if you are using target sights.
Anyways I am going to go to the range.
misanthropist
03-09-13, 11:44
Only YOU didn't know. Everyone else had zero issues with me referencing it the way I did.
Vickers & Hackathorn teach their students that under stress (like someone shooting at you), your NATURAL group size will double or triple! So if you are already shooting large groups (as your sights suck), you won't be getting ineffective hits.
We were just in a class where two of the shooters ran XS sights. They had difficulty putting rounds into tight areas (at relatively close distances) because the front sight covered the target area.
I am almost of the opinion now, that people that buy these stupid things in an effort to try and compensate for some other issue (which could be better addressed with QUALITY training.
This is all true, but "do well" is a relative term. How well did the shooter do on the 10/10/10 (passing score of 90 or above) drill or Kyle Defoor's pistol drill #1 (run 25yds to 25yd line and put 6 rounds into a B8 target with a score of 50 passing)??? If the passed all of these drills, I would tell them keep on using them if they like.
C4
I was in a Hackathorn class where a guy shot a 93 on 10/10/10 with his XS sights. I shot 91.
Granted that same guy would not have survived the Defoor drill but that has nothing to do with his sights...
Anyway that is exactly why I think it is possible to train around the deficiencies of XS sights. I don't like them and I think they make the hard stuff harder without making the easy stuff easier, but they apparently can be shot pretty well if you're willing to put the time in to learn them.
I don't see the point of doing that and I think the sights are a throwback to 2003 when there was no mainstream awareness of people like Ken or Larry, and "combat shooting" was cool and everybody thought your small motor functions evaporated when the shit hit the fan.
I think the theory behind them is now pretty much outdated...but they can be made to work, if that's your thing.
Bluedreaux
03-09-13, 17:15
I've shot the XS Standard Dot sights in a Glock 22 quite a bit. IME head shots at 25 yards and torso shots at 50 aren't difficult...for me. Not very scientific, but that's all I can offer for now. But I've also removed the rear sight completely now and done a fair bit of shooting with only the dot up front, which can be surprisingly "accurate" itself.
I think an advantage of the XS system is that it forces your focus to the front sight. But so many people get hung up on the shallow V rear sight that they actually focus there, wanting precision alignment that they can't get. Then they press the trigger while focusing on the wrong sight and the "XS sights aren't accurate" line becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.
Are they the most accurate? Obviously not. And if it took you even 50 rounds to figure that out, that's too much.
Are they suitably accurate for a defensive weapon? After using them I've satisfied myself that they are for me.
No I think most people were unwilling to call you on it. I could guessimate what you mean because I know most of the dimensions of the targets off the top of my head.
No, most people knew what I was talking about. Just as an FYI, lots of instructors reference IPDA targets by A, B and C zone. It is just simpler to do so. Honestly though, this is a very silly thing to get hung up on.
And you can get some descent groups with XS Big Dot sights. But not every activity requires you to sit there shooting groups.
"Decent?" What is the definition of this? No one that I know "sits" and shoots groups. Everything we do and teach is about getting accurate hits as FAST as possible.
That happens with any wide front sight, with the POI is in the middle of the blade. You will have that issue with Trijicon HDs on some targets (the blade of the HD isn't much narrower than Big Dots).
Everything has a compromise. As I already stated, you have to find something in the middle (that allows for both accuracy and speed). The XS sights are totally fixated on the speed aspect.
And if it is a training issue, why do so many companies take XS Big Dots concept (Big visible front sight with a wide notch) and are making sights? Trijicon HD, Amerigo i-Dot Pro, and Ameriglo PRO all follow the same concept as XS Big Dot.
They don't take it (to that extreme). What they do is meet in the middle and then give a real back sight. While the front sight isn't the end of the world, the rear sight is what kills these sights.
With practice neither of those drills are excessively hard with Big Dots. Though I would that Defoor's pistol drill isn't easy for most shooters even if you are using target sights.
Anyways I am going to go to the range.
With practice, I could pass those drills with NO sights on the gun! See, people have limited amounts of time and resources. Shooting 10,000rds in order to try and get "good" with something is a clue that you might want change that gun or part out. Pistol shooting is hard enough without making it harder on yourself by using crap sights!
The best minds in the industry (Vickers, Hackathorn, etc) view this sights as pure crap. So if you think I am wrong on my opinions, people that know more than you and I combined think they are stupid. ;)
C4
brushy bill
03-09-13, 17:25
Not being a wise guy, but this would make a great sticky on "why not XS Big Dots" or something similar. Lot of good info that could save some uninformed folks money down the line and avoid new threads same topic.
Went to CSAT in 2008 and took a G19 with XS Big Dots. Had just over 3K rounds on it.
Paul Howe told me no one had passed his Standards using Big Dots.
My name was added to that list.
We shot some HRTs (not part of the Standards), and on the target with the smallest partial BG head showing, the dot covered all of his head and part of the hostage. It was guesstimate shooting at its best.
Then he had us crouch behind an auto and shoot at a hanging plate (not part of the Standards) about 15-20 yds away. I would have been more efficient if I had gone down there and kicked the damn plate rather than wasting rounds.
Got home on Sunday evening and took the XS off on Tuesday.
Knew I was gonna have trouble at the class, but took the gun anyway; figured an instructor would push me a bit more than I/we could at home, and I’d either sink or swim as far as Big Dots go.
At home prior to CSAT my times did increase a bit, but only about 75% of the time. But the trade off in accuracy wasn’t worth it. Dot drills at 7 yds weren’t too bad, but past 10 yds I had trouble.
Can’t remember which trip it was to CSAT, but pretty sure there was at least one M4C person there for this.
Either the sights work for the shooter of they don't.
Personally, I can see that big dot and rear sight having merit in certain situations, but being detrimental in others.
thopkins22
03-10-13, 14:24
Went to CSAT in 2008 and took a G19 with XS Big Dots. Had just over 3K rounds on it.
Paul Howe told me no one had passed his Standards using Big Dots.
My name was added to that list.
It's also worth pointing out that Paul Howe has a professional relationship and several products with XS. The fact that he says that is a clue.
Regarding the Defoor Standards(or any other test,) it's sort of like Grant said. Somebody CAN pass those tests with no sights at all provided that they practice enough and are inherently skilled enough. It would be much easier with a notch and post(I don't see anyone disputing that.) What the XS guys need to prove is that they are faster at close range...something that nobody has proven likely because they aren't.
Yeager is or at least was one of the big proponents of Big Dots...and shows that he can hit a popper at 100 with them. Good for him, he's mastered the sight and/or a better pistol shot than I am. But that's the point...the fact that most people cannot use them as effectively as notch and post is a clue. People can shoot out to 1k with iron sights, but it's silly to recommend that over an optic.
It was pointed out that other companies "borrow" from the concept and make big highly visible front posts. Okay? They also give you a notch. If we accept that in close range speed shooting the front sight is all you need, and that the rear sight is primarily useful in gaining feedback for precision shots, then it doesn't matter at all what rear sight there is(or if there is one at all) right up until you actually need that feedback at which point the notch is king.
I've actually used them. I quickly went to something that worked better for me.
[QUOTE=LDM;1573166]"Borrowing.. to do some drills.." is neither a fair nor informed experience. Here's why:
Big Dot express sights absolutely take some getting used to.
After shooting post & notch for literally decades, it took some time, practice, and reprogramming for me to "dot the i" instead of trying to use the rear sight like a notch. And like most new tasks or skills, it feels awkward and clumsy at first. QUOTE]
Sorry back to the party as I have been out of town and busy.
Fair nor informed? Maybe, maybe not...I have enough time behind a handgun to know whether something will work or not for me after a few minutes, such as an accessory or sight system. Doing a few drills was enough for me to realize that they do nothing for me, and to see the cons that various people(including knowledgeable instructors) consistently say. I have also seen too many shooters realize that they might struggle with various drills due to the lack of a true rear sight notch. It is all relative.
If someone switches to them due to eyesight, great, but even with that I still think that a good set of Trijicons or Ameriglos would still be more beneficial. This coming from a gentleman with his own vision issues.
Again, just one man's opinion. Use what works best for you.
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