Any reason to keep a pre ban lower

[ffhounddog]

I have a Pre ban lower i kept for the "incase" I go to a class in "ban" states and was wondering if there is any reason to keep a pre ban lower any longer. I am just going to use it for the 545 upper since poly mags are a little tight but thought of selling it just to thin the heard. I would just toss the upper on my Recce lower if I wanted to shoot 545 since it has a SSA trigger in it.

I do not need to sell it just wondering if there is still a reason to keep a pre ban lower?

[The_Hammer_Man]

WHICH ban are we talking about?

The one in the 80's or the Clinton one?

[twistedcomrade]

If the lower has no sentimental value to you, then I would sell it at a reasonable amount to a fellow shooting enthusist in a ban state. I would make some money on it, but I wouldn't gouge them either. This assumes you have plenty of other ARs and you define "plenty". I have a SP1 that my father bought for me in the eighties. No way I could ever sell it.

[Auto426]

The answer to the question would depend entirely on how many AR's I had, the status/possibility of anti-gun legislation in my state's future, and the condition of the lower in question.

[Vulture38]

Ah, just keep it.

[Hdog83]

They're still relevant in 1994-era AWB states like NY, CT (for now), MA and perhaps other places, so like everything else they're going for silly prices now, even silly-er than before. Demand is probably higher than ever in NY these days, with the upcoming registration deadline (if I understand how the not-so-SAFE act works). [I say silly because their extreme values come from artificially-, legislatively- created scarcity, rather than from unmolested consumer and producer choices operating only under the laws of free market supply and demand.]

I don't think there is a "one right answer" here. Ultimately I think it boils down to your personal situation, your investment in various firearms, your finances, your probability of travel, your subjective assessments of the future for AWB's 2.0, etc. Not much help in that answer, I guess....

Here's how I look at it:

- If you think you might want to visit one of those AWB 1.0 places with an AR down the road, then it may be worth keeping. (see the posts above from twistedcomrade and Auto426) Make sure you have your pre-ban standard capacity magazines as well (assuming they are still grandfathered).

- If you'd rather reinvest that cash into something you'll use & enjoy more, then now is a good time to do so. The market is telling you quite clearly that there is a lot of demand from those who 'need', think they 'need', or just 'want' what you already have. Based on what I've seen lately in the auctions, depending on brand and appearance/condition, you might end up break-even trading up to a new Colt or BCM complete lower, perhaps even close to a Noveske or KAC complete lower. (In other words, panic price to panic price parity.)

[RHINOWSO]

You need to check those states, as I believe there was a ruling that it had to be a complete firearm with evil features already when the law was passed. But could be wrong, that might have been federal law / BATFE ruling.

[GunRelated]

You need to check those states, as I believe there was a ruling that it had to be a complete firearm with evil features already when the law was passed. But could be wrong, that might have been federal law / BATFE ruling.


Not trying to say you are wrong in your beliefs, but how would one go about proving that a lower isn't wearing the same parts that was on it when the ban passed?

[BoringGuy45]

You need to check those states, as I believe there was a ruling that it had to be a complete firearm with evil features already when the law was passed. But could be wrong, that might have been federal law / BATFE ruling.

Most states, at least Connecticut I know for sure, the law, as written, exempts firearms, the serialized part of the gun, manufactured before the ban. Nothing is written that states that the weapon had to be configured with evil features before the ban either by the legislation or any judge. Every gun store in the ban states that I've been to that sells pre-bans, every one of them, sells stripped, never-built lowers. As it stands now, so long as the serial number is pre-ban, I think you're good to go.

[HCM]

You need to check those states, as I believe there was a ruling that it had to be a complete firearm with evil features already when the law was passed. But could be wrong, that might have been federal law / BATFE ruling.

This was an ATF admin ruling / opinion with regard to the now expired 1994 federal AWB. It was never law or formal regulation.

It did not apply to the Pre SAFE act NY AWB. Not sure about CT or MA.

[RHINOWSO]

Not trying to say you are wrong in your beliefs, but how would one go about proving that a lower isn't wearing the same parts that was on it when the ban passed?
Again, I just recall something along those lines when people were discussing Pre & post ban rifles WRT the '94 ban and federal law.

IIRC, basically the BATFE ruled that since its a receiver, not a rifle until its assembled, it had to be assembled before the ban went into affect. Again, the '94 federal AWB has expired so that portion is moot, a person needs to get into the specific state law.

How would they prove it? I don't know, maybe by your weapon having all new production post ban type evil features. Sure you could say you swapped them all out from older production preban stuff... But then you'd be lying...

Again, no dog in this fight as I don't intend to move to a Kommunist state.

[RHINOWSO]

This was an ATF admin ruling / opinion with regard to the now expired 1994 federal AWB. It was never law or formal regulation.

It did not apply to the Pre SAFE act NY AWB. Not sure about CT or MA.

Thanks for the clarification, I knew it was regarding the Federal AWB.

[ffhounddog]

It was built as a rifle. I just moved the upper to another rifle to use PMAGs and the like because I have a few of em.

Thanks for the discussion. It has given me a few points to think of.

[Hdog83]

It was built into a complete rifle and lawfully possessed by me as a rifle well prior to 9/14/94. I just moved the upper to another rifle to use PMAGs and the like because I have a few of em.

I fixed it for you.


I'm not the best expert on all of the AWB 1.0 state statutes and case law, but I think the language in the MA AWB, for example, either directly states, implies or has been interpreted to "mean" that the exclusion / grandfathering of "pre-ban" weapons only applies to those that were complete, functioning firearms (under MA law) prior to the cutoff date. I don't think NY or CT ever cared about this.

[ramairthree]

What are pre-ban lowers selling for right now? (meaning a lower made before 94)

I have one of those BM short barrel with long welded FHs from 93. Its a carry handle upper CAR15 basically. It makes me feel like a teen or early 20s again in OG-107s when I get it out, but for practical purposes I was thinking of SBRing it with a flat top upper.

That would be kind of a waste to do to a pre-ban lower now that I think about it.

[Hdog83]

Pre-ban lowers are going for pretty strong prices. An example from yesterday (3/2/13) was this pre-ban DPMS stripped lower, new in wrapper, that went for $795 on GB:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=330750860

[Please note that I haven't verified the serial number on this one to ensure that it is truly pre-ban. However, given the price, I'm pretty confident that whoever bought it was convinced.]

Again, the market prices reflect artificially created scarcity, rather than a rational assessment of price vs. quality / reputation / features / condition / materials / etc. That's why stuff that most M4C'ers wouldn't touch is going for premiums to acknowledged "Tier I" brands like Colt, KAC, BCM, Noveske, etc. For comparison, there's a first quality Noveske Gen II stripped lower that's currently going for less than the 20+ year old DPMS above.

For pre-bans, as you might imagine, the rest of the rifle / carbine (other than the lower) is probably irrelevant and/or worthless to the buyer (unless he or she is a full-on collector of historical pieces). They want the lower to be able to build a no-ban carbine or rifle, or to be able to have evil features for an NFA build they're doing (see: CT).

[HCM]

Sorry to bump an old thread but I have a question for the CT / MA folks re: pre ban lowers:

I have a pre-ban Eagle Arms lower (complete) which is gathering dust. If I sell this to someone in CT or MA can it go as a complete lower or do I have to disassemble it and send it as a stripped lower ?

[dmaxfireman]

You can sell it however you want. Stripped, complete, painted some horrible purple krylon color. It doesn't matter as long as the serial can be verified as pre-ban.