Failures to extract with Colt Rail Gun and missing S80 parts. UPDATE Pg 2

[og556]

I recently traded into a Colt Rail Gun and have run into some issues.

This gun allegedly had around 700 rounds through it according to the original owner. Today I went to the range after picking it up and discovered the gun was having consistent Failures to Extract and Eject. These failures occurred with Colt 7 and 8 round magazines, Two used Wilson Combat 8 round 47d's, and a brand new Wilson Combat 47dc.

The ammo was a mix of Remington UMC .45 ACP 230gr. and PMC .45 230gr. ball.

Every magazine I inserted the first round would feed fine and then on the second or third round the pistol would not extract the previous round from the chamber and would attempt to feed another round. This kept occurring for 140 rounds I tried putting through it. I cleaned and lubed the pistol prior to this first range visit.

Upon getting home I researched the issue and discovered two things wrong with this pistol.

1. Assuming this is a series 80 gun there is no firing pin plunger in the slide.

2. Assuming this is a series 80 gun there is nothing protruding from the frame when actuating the trigger.

My first gut reaction is to contact colt and find out what the options are but I am afraid if the previous owner or someone modified this gun the repairs will cost way more than I have or they may refuse to work on it at all.

I don't know what could have been done to the inner workings of the frame to mod it in such a way but the part that should push the plunger up is either not there or moving as far as I can tell.

When I field stripped the pistol the extractor was also loose and rattling. I tried to put an empty shell in between the extractor and the breach face and it stayed there but it was not held against the breach face it was simply hanging off of it and not being pressed against the breach face at all. It was as if there is no extractor tension.

I should mention that the seller stated that this gun has not been modified beyond new grips. I sent him an email tonight and am awaiting a response. I was afraid of something like this.

[Henchman]

Is there a hole in the under side of the slide where the plunger should be? Can you post pictures?

[Dave Berryhill]

If there have been no other modifications, replacing the Series 80 safety parts is relatively simple and inexpensive. You might try contacting Colt and see if they'll cover it. You probably need your extractor adjusted or replaced as well.

If you are not up to speed on the Series 80 parts, I'd suggest either finding a 'smith that is or Colt. There are a few different levers available that vary in the amount (height) of lift or sometimes refereed to as "timing" the Series 80 safety parts.

[og556]

Double post sorry.

[og556]

Should there be a plunger here ?

http://i1212.photobucket.com/albums/cc450/og556/6ED4C337-8BBD-45B3-ABB8-409237DD0437-4033-000001E1BCBA8E7E.jpg

This is a picture of the frame. I actuated the trigger while catching the hammer so it does not fall and the only piece that moves is the nub in the middle. The arm which actuates a firing pin block does not appear to be there or is not moving.

http://i1212.photobucket.com/albums/cc450/og556/90045F8E-8C61-42D8-A2E1-7499656E748A-4033-000001E1C684938D.jpg

These two pictures are an example of the malfunctions I experienced today. The first shot would feed and fire but subsequent shots would fail to extract and eject but the following round would try to feed. Every magazine I tried exhibited this same failure.

http://i1212.photobucket.com/albums/cc450/og556/435DCD96-FCED-4D55-AC5E-57BCCDDA0278-4033-000001E2078115C5.jpg

http://i1212.photobucket.com/albums/cc450/og556/B3CFC026-E69A-4322-AC9C-E39B3A35C226-4033-000001E1F662D098.jpg

These are pictures of the extractor tension test I did with a snap cap. Same results with a live round.

http://i1212.photobucket.com/albums/cc450/og556/1C600E01-95E4-46EE-83FE-935C7D0663AC-4033-000001E1DBFF404B.jpg

[Auto426]

The Series 80 parts were definitely removed by the previous owner. The proper shim appears to be in place so it shouldn't really be an issue unless you want to return the gun back to stock. You can buy the Series 80 parts from either Colt's own website or a place like Brownells.

As far as the failures to extract, the extractor is definitely lacking tension. That's a relatively easy fix as well, and you can find several guides online about how to properly set the extractor tension.

I have to admit that I'm sort of curious if there are any other "improvements" made to the pistol by the original owner. Does the barrel throat or feed ramp show any signs of being buffed or polished?

[og556]

That's what I need to know.

[og556]

Ill take some pics of the internals after work tomorrow.

So far the seller is claiming he bought it brand new and never modified it and it was working perfectly. He says he has no idea how those parts got there.


I'm just pissed because these parts and mods don't just magically happen. I can't trust this thing until I have a competent gunsmith who knows this platform look it over.

I have never screwed over another forum member in my life. I once had a guy on here buy a strider SMF in 3v steel. I shipped it to him without insurance and lost the tracking number. It got lost by USPS. In order to refund his money as quickly as humanly possible I sold one of my favorite pistols a walther ppq for $200 less than I paid for it.

[Gary1911A1]

The Series 80 parts were definitely removed by the previous owner. The proper shim appears to be in place so it shouldn't really be an issue unless you want to return the gun back to stock. You can buy the Series 80 parts from either Colt's own website or a place like Brownells.

As far as the failures to extract, the extractor is definitely lacking tension. That's a relatively easy fix as well, and you can find several guides online about how to properly set the extractor tension.

I have to admit that I'm sort of curious if there are any other "improvements" made to the pistol by the original owner. Does the barrel throat or feed ramp show any signs of being buffed or polished?

I agree with the above and would add I don't know how the lack of the Series 80 Parts could be causing your malfunctions. The extractor needs to be properly tensioned.

[og556]

So last night I tried to adjust the tension on the extractor and noticed that when I tried to reinstall the plate which holds the firing pin in the slide that the extractor will rotate inside the channel with the plate removed.

With the plate in place it has no lateral movement but it does rattle if you shake it.

It's not the fact the gun has these issues or that it even has its series 80 parts removed that has me ticked off its the fact the seller claims he did not modify this gun in any way before he traded it with me.

[BBossman]

I agree with the above and would add I don't know how the lack of the Series 80 Parts could be causing your malfunctions. The extractor needs to be properly tensioned.

I suspect the original owner removed the Series 80 parts to cure the "squishy" trigger caused by the poorly fit extractor.

Factory assembled Colt's routinely suffer from poor extractor tension and many times extractor "clocking". In a Series 80 the clocking is what causes the squishy feel in the trigger pull, as well as contributing to extraction/ejection problems.

The extractor clocking is usually caused by Colt's one-size-fits-all firing pin stop and sometimes an over sized firing pin stop cut in the extractor.

Colt will fix these problems, maybe even under warranty, that's a maybe based on the alterations by the original owner. They are pretty good about these things. Be prepared to wait for it though. Contact member bjt72 here on the forum, he's Brent Turchi, Colts Custom Shop manager, and he can give you options.

Or... you can fix it yourself with a few parts and a little guidance.

[og556]

Can the extractor clocking be caused by a missing firing pin safety plunger ?

I may just send this out to get fixed. The thing is I want to be able to trust this pistol and at this point that's not something I can do. The original owner still stands by he did not modify the pistol and he bought it new. Given the facts presented by those who have some experience with this platform I am afraid of what else could have been screwed up with this pistol.

[sinister]

From your photos it appears the Series 80 guts have been removed and the firing pin safety plunger "Lifter" replaced with TJ's Series 80-to-70 conversion shim (I personally would have done the same. My personal preferences lean to the 80s bits as unnecessarily complicated and a potential point of failure, besides making it expensive and time-consuming to polish out any trigger mushiness) .

Your extractor tension is non-existent and is causing your problems. Whoever changed out the 80 guts may have replaced the 80 extractor with a new 70 extractor without adjusting the tension. Does it have the divot for the now-missing 80 firing pin plunger, or is it a 70 extractor?

A good gunsmith can adjust tension and have you on your way (with a test-fire if he has a range or test barrel on-site) in less than half-an-hour.

80 on top, 70 below:
http://www.edbrown.com/images/parts/Extractor.gif

You're missing three Series 80 parts and a spring:

http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/3392/series80colorax6.jpg

TJ's shim replaces the four series 80 parts:

http://www.tjscustomgunworks.com/Photos4/1911Shim1.jpg

Off-topic, it has a chro-moly frame and stainless slide?

[rushca01]

From your photos it appears the Series 80 guts have been removed and the firing pin safety plunger "Lifter" replaced with Ti's Series 80-to-70 conversion shim (I personally would have done the same. My personal preferences lean to the 80s bits as unnecessarily complicated and a potential point of failure, besides making it expensive and time-consuming to polish out any trigger mushiness) .

Your extractor tension is non-existent and is causing your problems. Whoever changed out the 80 guts may have replaced the 80 extractor with a new 70 extractor without adjusting the tension. Does it have the divot for the now-missing 80 firing pin plunger, or is it a 70 extractor?

A good gunsmith can adjust tension and have you on your way (with a test-fire if he has a range or test barrel on-site) in less than half-an-hour.

80 on top, 70 below:
http://www.edbrown.com/images/parts/Extractor.gif

Off-topic, it has a chro-moly frame and stainless slide?

Concur with sinister and others. OP you have one of the best 1911 smiths in this thread and an SME (sinister), listen to what they say.

Sinister, that's a bi tone rail gun. Frame and slide are both SS colt just cerakoted the frames, they offer black on black, bare SS, and the bi tone.

[BBossman]

Can the extractor clocking be caused by a missing firing pin safety plunger ?

I may just send this out to get fixed. The thing is I want to be able to trust this pistol and at this point that's not something I can do. The original owner still stands by he did not modify the pistol and he bought it new. Given the facts presented by those who have some experience with this platform I am afraid of what else could have been screwed up with this pistol.


No, the missing Series 80 parts would not cause the clocking.

I have no dog in this fight, but the original owner is FOS unless his FFL removed them before the sale, which would be highly unlikely. Colt would not have sent that out without the Series 80 parts installed or replaced with the TJ's Shim.

As I said before, Colt may repair it for you at no charge, again I say MAY, but I doubt they will pick up the shipping. You may want to look for someone local who is familiar with the 1911, but ask lots of questions and choose wisely.

If you choose a 1911 as a self defense pistol you need to know how to work on it yourself as a cost effective way to keep it up and running. You could use this as your first learning experience. I'm not talking about customizing, but routine maintenance, which extractor tensioning or replacement is certainly a part of.

[Dave Berryhill]

So last night I tried to adjust the tension on the extractor and noticed that when I tried to reinstall the plate which holds the firing pin in the slide that the extractor will rotate inside the channel with the plate removed....
That's common on production guns. It may not affect performance but isn't optimum IMO.

[og556]

Double post.

[og556]

First off I just want to thank every one on here for your advice and helpful information.

I will take it apart again tonight to take pics of the extractor. Would using this pistol for concealed carry with the series 80 safety system removed be a huge liability or no big deal ?

[sinister]

I'd carry and shoot the thing until it cracks and dies or I ran out of money to feed it.

I'm fairly sure you'll pass it to your grandkids in fine shape. They may pass it on to theirs.

[theJanitor]

sounds like the seller id trying to take you for a ride. and did he take a file to your barrel? where the barrel meets the breechface shouldn't look like this:

http://i1212.photobucket.com/albums/cc450/og556/435DCD96-FCED-4D55-AC5E-57BCCDDA0278-4033-000001E2078115C5.jpg

[Wake27]

Hatfield's Gunsmithing is up your way, in Manassas. Sam has a great reputation with 1911's from what I've seen and they've done awesome (albeit very little so far) work on my CRG.

[Tennvol12345]

Yeah if you can put up with Sams attitude and customer service skills

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk

[sinister]

Dave Sams at Sams Custom Guns (west of Richmond), or D.R. Middlebrook in Surry.

I'd avoid Northern Virginia Gun Works and GunTek.

[og556]

http://i1212.photobucket.com/albums/cc450/og556/7899C472-4E2B-4CA6-A491-4D451EE435B0-5160-000002596246CBE8-1.jpg

http://i1212.photobucket.com/albums/cc450/og556/8EB5950E-C1E9-42B9-991B-CBDF8D8B739C-5160-00000259691FF5C1.jpg

Pictures of extractor after I bent it a bit.

http://i1212.photobucket.com/albums/cc450/og556/B1BBC48F-4AC6-430A-9FB1-1B844E8DEC35-5160-00000259551BB02D.jpg

http://i1212.photobucket.com/albums/cc450/og556/83D5BF5A-EB91-4950-A2DD-467DCAC04CD1-5160-00000259432632C8.jpg

Pictures of breach face. Looks a little rough.

http://i1212.photobucket.com/albums/cc450/og556/18334245-DC66-448C-A1B8-E6416EDCBB85-5160-0000025933665608.jpg

http://i1212.photobucket.com/albums/cc450/og556/4B059BF6-E4AA-4529-906D-7B5F2C37C3B4-5160-000002592BC0FDD0.jpg


Picture of extractor holding a .45 round

http://i1212.photobucket.com/albums/cc450/og556/37D4BA99-9F29-437B-A970-B3FC15B0B17C-5160-000002592139104D.jpg

http://i1212.photobucket.com/albums/cc450/og556/A0348816-EDB7-4235-AB90-F78457D6ACD1-5160-0000025BF41E0F9A.jpg

The extractor now holds the round to the breach face and if I shake it kinda vigorously it falls out.

I still want to send it to someone to look it over and if they think its worth it to do any work they suggest to make it a reliable gun I can stake my life on.


Based on the pics of the extractor it looks looks like a series 80 extractor.