View Full Version : Sad story
Larry Vickers
03-03-13, 18:31
I have been talking to my good friend Ken Hackathorn a lot lately about all this AWB and magazine ban stuff ; we are in total agreement about LEO's in ban states not having an exemption for standard capacity magazines, etc.
Yesterday he shared a very sad tale about a buddy of his that lives in NC and does the gun show circuit - buying and selling and picking up inventory from different gunshops, etc.
This guy was driving thru New Jersey to linkup with a buyer of a Winchester pre 64 Model 70 bolt gun- unfortunately for him he had a headlight out; because of this he was pulled over
The officer asked him if he had any firearms in the car - he said yes a bolt action hunting rifle - the officer wanted to see it; upon inspection the officer noticed a few M1 Carbine 30 rd mags ( empty ) - of course then the shit hit the fan and the resulting search of the vehicle the police found hollow point handgun projectiles - bullets only not loaded ammo; all this and more was part of some stuff he had gotten at a gunshop for selling at an upcoming gunshow
Well you can guess the rest; the car and everything was seized - including the cash he had on him- he got his car back finally but his NJ state lawyer told him he is facing 3 years in prison ; he said he is going to get convicted, no way to get him 'off ', but he is going to try his best to keep him from doing any jail time
Now maybe all the LEO's that frequent this forum might have a clue why us 'citizens' might be a bit hardheaded when it comes to LEO exemptions of any kind - it is because that slippery slope leads to places like New Jersey or worse Great Britian where SAS combat veterans face prison for having a handgun in their kit after returning from a combat deployment
I'll say it again - we are in the fight of our lives - we have to give it our all because the country we grew up in may not exist in the future; we are on the edge of the abyss
Magic_Salad0892
03-03-13, 18:34
Wow. That's rediculous. The guy didn't even live in NJ? Or anything?
Now he's a prohibited person. This makes me sick.
I was under the impression FOPA was supposed to prevent this sort of thing from happening.
PA PATRIOT
03-03-13, 18:44
Larry,
I have to say your friend was not to smart to be in New Jersey to purchase a firearm in the first place (Assuming this since you did say were the gun was purchased). New Jersey has some screwed up gun laws for sure but your friend knew that and most likely what those AWB laws were before entering the state. Hi-Cap magazines and H/P's even just the bullets its self by a out of stater and possession of a firearm without a NJ firearms buyers/owners card if it was purchased in N/J is just stupid.
You want to blame the cop for doing his job but maybe you should be blaming your friend for his lack of common sense when travailing through such a AWB state with restricted items.
xjustintimex
03-03-13, 18:46
That's crazy, lets hope his case goes to a higher court
Larry Vickers
03-03-13, 18:50
PA PATRIOT - what planet are you on ? I mean really ? The laws in NJ are stupid - period ! Its not like this guy was transporting a tactical nuke- Jesus dude get real !!!
Of course he was a dumbass for going to NJ in the first place but does that mean for a bolt gun, a few mags and some HP projectiles he should do jail time ? Also he is Ken's buddy - not mine
If you can't keep up don't comment
Razorhunter
03-03-13, 18:59
Anytime a cop or anyone else asks to see what's in your car or house, you kindlytell them to F OFF. When they ask why, and imply your hiding something, you tell them, "NO, I just don't care to have my rights infringed". You MUST NOT have ANY questionable items sitting in plain sight of the asshole who is trying to infringe upon your rights however, or they'll get a warrant.
David Pennington
03-03-13, 19:01
Larry,
I have to say your friend was not to smart to be in New Jersey to purchase a firearm in the first place (Assuming this since you did say were the gun was purchased). New Jersey has some screwed up gun laws for sure but your friend knew that and most likely what those AWB laws were before entering the state. Hi-Cap magazines and H/P's even just the bullets its self by a out of stater and possession of a firearm without a NJ firearms buyers/owners card if it was purchased in N/J is just stupid.
You want to blame the cop for doing his job but maybe you should be blaming your friend for his lack of common sense when travailing through such a AWB state with restricted items.
All of those Jews weren't smart to be in Europe in the 30s-40s either. They should have known better. The same goes for all of those west Africans in the 1600-1700s. They should have known better.
You want to blame the camp guard or slave trader but maybe you should blame the Jew or slave for their lack of common sense.
PA PATRIOT
03-03-13, 19:01
PA PATRIOT - what planet are you on ? I mean really ? The laws in NJ are stupid - period ! Its not like this guy was transporting a tactical nuke- Jesus dude get real !!!
Of course he was a dumbass for going to NJ in the first place but does that mean for a bolt gun, a few mags and some HP projectiles he should do jail time ? Also he is Ken's buddy - not mine
If you can't keep up don't comment
Larry I was starting to think what planet you call home yourself, this guy did a stupid thing but everyone is to blame but him. The Cop did his job that he is paid to do enforcing the laws of New Jersey plain and simple. But since you don't agree its OK to bad mouth the cop or a reason to support a anti LEO exemptions sentiment.
Stupid is as stupid does.
I believe a decent AMERICAN, be him/her LEO or not, would have merely said during the stop something to the effect of "buddy.. You are in the wrong place with this stuff, my advice would be to get out of this state with this stuff immediately. Your next stop may not go so well".
That's what a DECENT AMERICAN would have done IMO. Unfortunately that is not what this gentleman ran into. :(
F-Trooper05
03-03-13, 19:07
And I'm willing to bet the officer had hollow points and a 'hi-cap' mag in his sidearm. According to some people though, the cop needed it more, so it's okay...
This is crazy. Yeah, he made some mistakes, but it certainly shouldn't have gone that far. This reinforces to me that if these bans continue to expand more LEO will be quite comfortable and have less issues enforcing these ridiculous laws. These are insane times.
David Pennington
03-03-13, 19:08
The Cop did his job that he is paid to do enforcing the laws of New Jersey plain and simple.
Stupid is as stupid does.
Fixed it for you bro:
The camp guard did his job that he is paid to do enforcing the laws of the Wehrmacht plain and simple.
Larry Vickers
03-03-13, 19:08
PA PATRIOT - I wholeheartedly agree he should not have been driving in NJ with guns - or hell driving there period - but can't you see the real problem here ? The real problem is we have states in this country like NJ in the first place- in almost any other state in the country the guy would have drove away with all his property ; now he is facing jail time
The NJ cop was doing his job - that doesn't change the fact the laws are stupid and should be struck down
PA PATRIOT
03-03-13, 19:08
All of those Jews weren't smart to be in Europe in the 30s-40s either. They should have known better. The same goes for all of those west Africans in the 1600-1700s. They should have known better.
You want to blame the camp guard or slave trader but maybe you should blame the Jew or slave for their lack of common sense.
And this means what to the current discussion? The male Larry speaks of entered NJ by his own choice knowing what the AWB was for that area.
Magic_Salad0892
03-03-13, 19:08
I believe a decent AMERICAN, be him/her LEO or not, would have merely said during the stop something to the effect of "buddy.. You are in the wrong place with this stuff, my advice would be to get out of this state with this stuff immediately. Your next stop may not go so well".
That's what a DECENT AMERICAN would have done IMO. Unfortunately that is not what this gentleman ran into. :(
If I were a cop. That's what I would've done.
I believe that it's also what any cop on this forum would have done.
I believe a decent AMERICAN, be him/her LEO or not, would have merely said during the stop something to the effect of "buddy.. You are in the wrong place with this stuff, my advice would be to get out of this state with this stuff immediately. Your next stop may not go so well".
That's what a DECENT AMERICAN would have done IMO. Unfortunately that is not what this gentleman ran into. :(
Exactly..
Larry,
I have to say your friend was not to smart to be in New Jersey to purchase a firearm in the first place (Assuming this since you did say were the gun was purchased). New Jersey has some screwed up gun laws for sure but your friend knew that and most likely what those AWB laws were before entering the state. Hi-Cap magazines and H/P's even just the bullets its self by a out of stater and possession of a firearm without a NJ firearms buyers/owners card if it was purchased in N/J is just stupid.
You want to blame the cop for doing his job but maybe you should be blaming your friend for his lack of common sense when travailing through such a AWB state with restricted items.
Bullshit. This is EXACTLY why the federal FOPA was enacted, to keep assholes like this from molesting American citizens engaged in peaceable travel. I can imagine no reason for an officer pulling over a motorist for a headlight to ask about firearms, unless they got some other indicator from the motorist. Once he asked the question and the motorist answered truthfully, there was no reason for the officer to "inspect" the firearm. This was a fishing expedition to see if the could hook the guy up, which happens all the time.
This is why I advise people to not answer questions, not consent to searches and otherwise not cooperate with law enforcement. LE is not there to help the person they pulled over. LE is not on their side. LE cannot do anything to further the citizen's rights. LE is there to find crimes and arrest people, period. You may be a different type of officer, but every agency has a guy like this one on the payroll. It's this guy, not the good officer who sets the standard.
This didn't do a damn thing to further the safety of his community. He did a disservice to the citizen, to his profession and to the state of New Jersey. :mad:
Larry I was starting to think what planet you call home yourself, this guy did a stupid thing but everyone is to blame but him. The Cop did his job that he is paid to do enforcing the laws of New Jersey plain and simple. But since you don't agree its OK to bad mouth the cop or a reason to support a anti LEO exemptions sentiment.
Stupid is as stupid does.
I suppose the Nazi soldiers were just doing their job too...
And this means what to the current discussion? The male Larry speaks of entered NJ by his own choice knowing what the AWB was for that area.
Well he probably mistook NJ as one of the 50 states of the UNITED States of America, where an American citizen has the right to travel peaceably without being detained for exercising his Constitutional rights! :mad:
thopkins22
03-03-13, 19:15
I believe a decent AMERICAN, be him/her LEO or not, would have merely said during the stop something to the effect of "buddy.. You are in the wrong place with this stuff, my advice would be to get out of this state with this stuff immediately. Your next stop may not go so well".
That's what a DECENT AMERICAN would have done IMO. Unfortunately that is not what this gentleman ran into. :(
Yep.
What if the law said it's felonious to travel through NJ as a person of Scottish decent? Just enforcing the law that the people of NJ enacted? Where's the line? Where is the common sense and decency?
Before 9/11 my grandfather was boarding a plane and decided to carry on a bag that he hadn't used in years, but used to drive with on his sales route when he was much younger. He stayed in a lot of hotels and had a revolver in it.
Fast forward twenty years and he goes through security and they see the gun in the x-ray machine. He gets detained and questioned until an FBI agent shows up and tells them "what the hell is wrong with you people, he obviously didn't mean to bring it, let him go." He lost the revolver and missed his flight but was free to go thanks to someone who had common sense and decency.
ETA: It's also why you shouldn't answer questions by law enforcement. You can be a decent individual trying to do right, not guilty of any crime that actually hurts someone or not guilty of a crime that you're aware of, and the officer can be honestly looking for what in his opinion is a real criminal, and signals get crossed and next thing you know you're in serious trouble.
We've been conditioned that not being open with LE and answering every question is only something the guilty do...and that we should do everything in our power to make their jobs easier. BS
I hope every police officer is able to do their jobs safely and efficiently, but not at the expense of my liberty. It's an inherently dangerous profession.
Larry I was starting to think what planet you call home yourself, this guy did a stupid thing but everyone is to blame but him. The Cop did his job that he is paid to do enforcing the laws of New Jersey plain and simple. But since you don't agree its OK to bad mouth the cop or a reason to support a anti LEO exemptions sentiment.
Stupid is as stupid does.
Edited.
Please accept my apologies for going too far. This is an area that's very personal to me since a transferring soldier got arrested in NJ back in the early 80's for having his "Governor's 20" rifle in his trunk. Still, no excuse for personal attacks on this forum.
:agree:
PA PATRIOT
03-03-13, 19:17
PA PATRIOT - I wholeheartedly agree he should not have been driving in NJ with guns - or hell driving there period - but can't you see the real problem here ? The real problem is we have states in this country like NJ in the first place- in almost any other state in the country the guy would have drove away with all his property ; now he is facing jail time
The NJ cop was doing his job - that doesn't change the fact the laws are stupid and should be struck down
I totally agree with this, to me it appeared that your post maybe insinuating that blame laid with the L/E that stopped the male in question or by him doing his job created a greater anti L/E sentiment in general.
I believe a decent AMERICAN, be him/her LEO or not, would have merely said during the stop something to the effect of "buddy.. You are in the wrong place with this stuff, my advice would be to get out of this state with this stuff immediately. Your next stop may not go so well".
That's what a DECENT AMERICAN would have done IMO. Unfortunately that is not what this gentleman ran into. :(
No matter who it is these days, it seems everyone has a hard on for "sticking it" to someone else. From the cashier at Home Depot, to the postal clerk, right on down the line.
One time, a friend of mine had an empty HK pistol mag, and a 10 round sleeve of Winchester 300WIN ammo in his trunk, wedged behind some other crap, that had likely fallen out of a range bag -- or whatever. It was totally random, and they really dug to find it behind some rags, and under the spare tire in the well. He was headed on base (Ft. Myers) here in Arlington. The MP's rummaged around more, then asked if there were weapons, nature of his visit, etc. They understood this person was not a threat, asked him to stow the mag, took the 300WIN ammo and dumped it, and everything turned out fine.
It's about control and this illustrates the unintended, or maybe intended, consequences of these laws. The government MUST control the people in 2013, and beyond. Unfortunately, many good cops get caught in the middle.
Discretion: The freedom to decide what should be done in a particular situation.
I personally use this when doing my job. I wish more Officers would too.
You want to blame the cop for doing his job but maybe you should be blaming your friend for his lack of common sense when travailing through such a AWB state with restricted items.
And this is why we support the boycott by companies of ban states.
The male Larry speaks of entered NJ by his own choice knowing what the AWB was for that area.
Unless you have verifiable intel concerning "the male" that LAV's speaking and his knowledge of New Jersey gun laws you're making a pretty big assumption.
Just doing their job... I'm trying to suppress my urge to enact Godwin's Law.
PA PATRIOT
03-03-13, 19:25
Quote:
Originally Posted by PA PATRIOT
The camp guard did his job that he is paid to do enforcing the laws of the Wehrmacht plain and simple.
Stupid is as stupid does.
Fixed it for you bro.
Now why be a dumb ass and post something like that under my screen name?
You truely give meaning to the Stupid is as stupid does statement bro.
thopkins22
03-03-13, 19:25
Just doing their job... I'm trying to suppress my urge to enact Godwin's Law.
It's already happened. ;)
This is why I advise people to not answer questions, not consent to searches and otherwise not cooperate with law enforcement. LE is not there to help the person they pulled over. LE is not on their side. LE cannot do anything to further the citizen's rights. LE is there to find crimes and arrest people, period. You may be a different type of officer, but every agency has a guy like this one on the payroll. It's this guy, not the good officer who sets the standard.
Same advice my police buds give me as well.
Larry Vickers
03-03-13, 19:26
Let me be clear - I have no problem with Law Enforcement doing their job; but what I do have a MAJOR problem with is when Law Enforcement does not stand up for what is right, decent , and constitutional concerning the citizens of this country; regardless if it falls within the scope of doing their job or not
I didn't serve 20 plus years in spec ops to stand by and let misguided politicians, Cheif LEO's or individual officers make a mockery of the rights I bled, and watched friends die to defend
That's not anti LE in my book - its pro American
I totally agree with this, to me it appeared that your post maybe insinuating that blame laid with the L/E that stopped the male in question or by him doing his job created a greater anti L/E sentiment in general.
Quite possibly.
ICANHITHIMMAN
03-03-13, 19:31
Let me be clear - I have no problem with Law Enforcement doing their job; but what I do have a MAJOR problem with is when Law Enforcement does not stand up for what is right, decent , and constitutional concerning the citizens of this country; regardless if it falls within the scope of doing their job or not
I didn't serve 20 plus years in spec ops to stand by and let misguided politicians, Cheif LEO's or individual officers make a mockery of the rights I bled, and watched friends die to defend
That nots not anti LE in my book - its pro American
LAV
Is there anything we can do to help? Donate to his defense etc? Please ask Ken for us, it could have been me that this happened to.
PA PATRIOT
03-03-13, 19:32
People like you defending him is the reason there's any anti-LEO sentiment. This cop did a BS probe on an "out-of-stater" for a ****ing headlight for Christ-sakes! I'll tell you this much, if he'a a friend of Hack's, he's a good guy in my book LONG before I'd stand up for some douchebag NJ jack-booted thug! :mad:
The cop did his job plain and simple and if that hurts your feelings I could care less. But its always everyone else's fault I know but I'm so ****ing tried of the Anti L/E bullshit on the forum from now on I will speak my peace and let the chips fall were they may.
Magic_Salad0892
03-03-13, 19:32
You truely give meaning to the Stupid is as stupid does statement bro.
I'd think twice, and re-examine what you've said in this thread before you say something like that.
Plus. Many M4C members can vouch for Dave bein' pretty gnarly. So there's that too.
mikelowrey
03-03-13, 19:33
Discretion: The freedom to decide what should be done in a particular situation.
I personally use this when doing my job. I wish more Officers would too.
Then that makes us two.
Let me be clear - I have no problem with Law Enforcement doing their job; but what I do have a MAJOR problem with is when Law Enforcement does not stand up for what is right, decent , and constitutional concerning the citizens of this country; regardless if it falls within the scope of doing their job or not
I didn't serve 20 plus years in spec ops to stand by and let misguided politicians, Cheif LEO's or individual officers make a mockery of the rights I bled, and watched friends die to defend
That's not anti LE in my book - its pro American
Larry, very nice of you to say that, but again, there is some people that just dont seem to understand the situation that is going on right now. Courtesy and discretion are 2 important things that we need these days.
The cop did his job plain and simple and if that hurts your feelings I could care less. But its always everyone else's fault I know but I'm so ****ing tried of the Anti L/E bullshit on the forum from now on I will speak my peace and let the chips fall were they may.
So where do you draw the line then? There has to be a cutoff point between doing your job and defending the constitution?
ICANHITHIMMAN
03-03-13, 19:37
I don't believe that. He just believes differently. That doesn't mean he's a bad guy or anything. Some people just piss off other people unintentionally.
Its really hard to think anything else at this point!
jklaughrey
03-03-13, 19:38
"Discretion: The freedom to decide what should be done in a particular situation.
I personally use this when doing my job. I wish more Officers would too." J-Dub
DING ****ING DING
Common sense LE...makes sense.
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S3
SpankMonkey
03-03-13, 19:39
So damn sad. This guy's life is destroyed over a box with a spring in it. **** NJ and those who cannot do the decent thing.
SWATcop556
03-03-13, 19:40
First off we are not going to let a thread started by a SME sprial out of control into a dick measuring contest between the usual pot-stirring members in GD.
Only Warning: Can the BS or take a break.
Not that's out of the way:
1) IMO Unless you are shown a warrant DO NOT allow ANY officer to go through your stuff. Be it your home, vehicle, business, etc. You can grant consent but that's your call. If you are in a state that is hostile to the 2A you know that some (not most, not many, but some) LE will be out just to make a case. There is such a thing as Officer Discretion and I wish more LE would use it.
2) Stay out of 2A hostile states/cities unless you MUST travel there.
3) We are all on the same side here at M4C. That may not be the same out in the real world and the line is getting really blurry even here. Show your fellow members respect. You can disagree all night for all I care and no one will probably change anyones mind. It's a free country (for right now) and arguing on the internet is not illegal (yet).
Cagemonkey
03-03-13, 19:40
Discretion: The freedom to decide what should be done in a particular situation.
I personally use this when doing my job. I wish more Officers would too.Well said. Who ever said that being a LEO means being Robocop.
Magic_Salad0892
03-03-13, 19:42
Its really hard to think anything else at this point!
I understand. But I have faith that he's not a total dick. He just believes something different from us.
I think that what this cop did was totally wrong, and un-American.
PA Patriot probably would've done the same thing, and I'd be calling him on it, as well.
But while he's a member here, I'll defend his right to say whatever he wants as long as he's respectful for the most part.
JBecker 72
03-03-13, 19:44
3 ****ing years for magazines? All the while that piece of shit David Gregory gets off scott free...
Disgusting.
Larry I was starting to think what planet you call home yourself, this guy did a stupid thing but everyone is to blame but him. The Cop did his job that he is paid to do enforcing the laws of New Jersey plain and simple. But since you don't agree its OK to bad mouth the cop or a reason to support a anti LEO exemptions sentiment.
Stupid is as stupid does.
Just following orders. Got it.
mikelowrey
03-03-13, 19:48
3 ****ing years for magazines? All the while that piece of shit David Gregory gets off scott free...
Disgusting.
Say it loud brother, thats what happen when you drink the kool aid and have your tinfoil, you get a free pass.
FlyingHunter
03-03-13, 19:50
Sad story indeed, and prayers out for the man and his family. We as a free people should not tolerate such...jail time for WW2 mags and bullet components...jeez. More than Red State, Blue State, this story highlights the incredible division in our country. I think it's beyond the LEO angle of what the LEO should have done, could have done etc...I think it illustrates the citizenry becoming subjects under the control of the government. (Just look at Maryland, NY, even Colorado for crying out loud) Like LV said, it's dead serious and in fact, the fight of our lives and more so...our children's future. I openly contemplate that when we consider our country's future, a balkanization, like what happened when the USSR deconstructed into Uzbek, Ukraine, Khazakhstan Georgia, etc... that our country may be headed for a similar outcome. I pray that it will be as peaceful as the example of the USSR, save the Chechyna civil war. The trigger will be registration/confiscation.
http://i391.photobucket.com/albums/oo356/rushca01/513B75C1-FEA5-4318-868E-C71C64F437AF-4553-00000327B00C7334_zps2a193d82.jpg
Worth the warning if I get one but I'm sick of hearing "he was just doing his job".
You say you want a revolution, well you know...
The_War_Wagon
03-03-13, 19:59
Friends don't LET friends travel in/through "People's Democratic Republic of" - fiefdoms like New Joisey. Period. If you gave me the state, I'd carpet bomb it, take the insurance payout, bulldoze it into the Atlantic, and let the Gulf stream carry it back to Mutha England where it belongs - with all the other socialized nanny-staters.
If you LIVE there, you have my sympathies. I don't intend to give ANYONE there my business, however - not even so much as passing through. Fudge 'em. :mad:
David Pennington
03-03-13, 20:01
Now why be a dumb ass and post something like that under my screen name?
You truely give meaning to the Stupid is as stupid does statement bro.
I cleaned it up some but couldn't get the strike though from Word to stick. The intent was not to claim you said it but to show how close what you said was to my edit.
PA PATRIOT
03-03-13, 20:03
PA Patriot probably would've done the same thing.
No I would have not, as a pro 2A person I would have use my discretion and allowed the driver to leave with a warning on the head light and after he secured the firearm in the trunk if it was located in the cab during the stop. There would be no reason to be a dick here with the driver as I would believe his intent was not criminal in nature and he was just a person who made a error in judgment.
Some folks just don't care for L/E's and I understand that but the vast majority is not out to **** everyone over. Some will but that is the exception and not the rule for all the L/E's I know.
Ok, look guys...
Direct personal attacks are not going to cut it. Baiting with hot button phrases are not going to cut it.
Satire and re-phrasing a strawman are debate tactics. They do not necessitate personal attacks.
If you feel like attacking someone, hit the report button. Period.
In an ideal and supposedly united nation of states all true 2A supporters would find it intolerable that even one has been stolen from them. Yet we don't often see this among those same strong advocates and like far too few I've always wondered why.
David Pennington
03-03-13, 20:09
No I would have not, as a pro 2A person I would have use my discretion and allowed the driver to leave with a warning on the head light and after he secured the firearm in the truck if it was located in the cab during the stop. There would be no reason to be a dick here with the driver as I would believe his intent was not criminal in nature and he was just a person who made a error in judgment.
Some folks just don't care for L/E's and I understand that but the vast majority is not out to **** everyone over. Some will but that exception and not the rule for all the L/E's I know.
Okay, now that is sincerely encouraging. I really mean that.
Do you really think enforcing unjust laws is okay under the guise of "doing his job" or is that just a knee jerk reaction to what you percieve as anti-LE sentiment? Sincere question.
Magic_Salad0892
03-03-13, 20:11
No I would have not, as a pro 2A person I would have use my discretion and allowed the driver to leave with a warning on the head light and after he secured the firearm in the truck if it was located in the cab during the stop. There would be no reason to be a dick here with the driver as I would believe his intent was not criminal in nature and he was just a person who made a error in judgment.
Some folks just don't care for L/E's and I understand that but the vast majority is not out to **** everyone over. Some will but that exception and not the rule for all the L/E's I know.
I aplogize for my earlier assumption.
1) IMO Unless you are shown a warrant DO NOT allow ANY officer to go through your stuff. Be it your home, vehicle, business, etc. You can grant consent but that's your call. If you are in a state that is hostile to the 2A you know that some (not most, not many, but some) LE will be out just to make a case. There is such a thing as Officer Discretion and I wish more LE would use it.
At the point that the officer asked him if he had any firearms in the car, should he have answered no? Once he admitted that he had the firearm, isn't he almost obligated to let the officer inspect it on the grounds of officer safety?
2) Stay out of 2A hostile states/cities unless you MUST travel there.
New Jersey has some of the most restrictive gun laws in the country, and by far the most convoluted in that people have been arrested there for things that are legal under state law because of the confusing way that many of their laws are written and misinterpreted. But that is something outside of the topic of this thread. NJ also has a long reputation for ignoring the travelling provisions of the Firearm Owner Protection Act.
Larry I was starting to think what planet you call home yourself, this guy did a stupid thing but everyone is to blame but him. The Cop did his job that he is paid to do enforcing the laws of New Jersey plain and simple. But since you don't agree its OK to bad mouth the cop or a reason to support a anti LEO exemptions sentiment.
Stupid is as stupid does.
What he needed was an officer who had some common sense and courtesy. Sure, what happened was a mistake, however that mistake should not be looked upon in the same manner as a murder in Camden is looked upon. It's a ****ing joke, and last time I checked, this is America, the citizenry shouldn't be afraid to simply drive into another state during the course of day to day business petrified that they might have left a piece of plastic or spare round in their car. It's bullshit that someone who was simply driving down the road, is faced with jail time for the contents of his car, all of which is legal in non communist states. There was no victim in this "crime", discretion goes a long way...
These laws are unconstitutional and therefor should not be enforced by those sworn to defend the constitution.
Heavy Metal
03-03-13, 20:15
There needs to be a rider on some bill tying some federal pot of highway or LE monies to compliance with the FOPA.
Violate FOPA and lose billions.
That would fix shit in a heartbeat.
thopkins22
03-03-13, 20:20
At the point that the officer asked him if he had any firearms in the car, should he have answered no? Once he admitted that he had the firearm, isn't he almost obligated to let the officer inspect it on the grounds of officer safety?
I don't think lying is the appropriate response. A "none of your business, and not on my person" would suit the situation better.
I think that with the right legal help he can get this overturned using FOPA, but there also may be language that it applies only to the firearms themselves and not magazines or ammunition.
SWATcop556
03-03-13, 20:22
At the point that the officer asked him if he had any firearms in the car, should he have answered no? Once he admitted that he had the firearm, isn't he almost obligated to let the officer inspect it on the grounds of officer safety?
I would never recommend intentionally lying to LE. I honestly don't know if you are obligated in NJ. Here in TX you are not. Sorry I can't help much more than that.
SWATcop556
03-03-13, 20:25
"none of your business, and not on my person"
Courtesy goes a long way. "None of your business" is probably not the best response. "I do but not on my person" would go much further. When asked where it is you could just say secured in the vehicle. Anything further than that requires PC and a warrant (here in TX). I don't know about NJ.
No I would have not, as a pro 2A person I would have use my discretion and allowed the driver to leave with a warning on the head light and after he secured the firearm in the truck if it was located in the cab during the stop. There would be no reason to be a dick here with the driver as I would believe his intent was not criminal in nature and he was just a person who made a error in judgment.
Some folks just don't care for L/E's and I understand that but the vast majority is not out to **** everyone over. Some will but that exception and not the rule for all the L/E's I know.
PA,
Thank you and every citizen across this nation appreciates LEO's who can differentiate between an honest mistake and a criminal. Unfortunately, arrests like these in NJ have been happening since the 70's and 80's. It's one of the primary reasons the FOPA was enacted. Sadly, we've had continual cases where NJ LEO's and prosecutors have flipped the FOPA the bird and arrested/prosecuted honest, law abiding citizens for exercising their rights under the FOPA. When one state is openly hostile to citizens of the other states in this fashion, it's a direct and willful violation of the Constitution of the United States.
I'm all for supporting LEO's, they have a hard job. But in cases like this, they make the job unnecessarily harder and "drive that wedge". It's sad and unfortunate. This is probably one of those cases where most LEO's would publicly support the officer, but woe unto him in the squadroom (at least in my AOR). I just worry that that doesn't happen in places like NJ. That's all I have to say about that. :(
thopkins22
03-03-13, 20:29
Courtesy goes a long way. "None of your business" is probably not the best response. "I do but not on my person" would go much further. When asked where it is you could just say secured in the vehicle. Anything further than that requires PC and a warrant (here in TX). I don't know about NJ.
I like it. I've never been stopped when I actually had firearms in my vehicle, so I've always(the two times I've been pulled over anyway) been able to say "no sir."
If I'm pulled over in the future and I'm not CCing, I'll use your phrase.
At the point that the officer asked him if he had any firearms in the car, should he have answered no? Once he admitted that he had the firearm, isn't he almost obligated to let the officer inspect it on the grounds of officer safety?
New Jersey has some of the most restrictive gun laws in the country, and by far the most convoluted in that people have been arrested there for things that are legal under state law because of the confusing way that many of their laws are written and misinterpreted. But that is something outside of the topic of this thread. NJ also has a long reputation for ignoring the traveling provisions of the Firearm Owner Protection Act.
No. In almost every case, lying to an officer is a criminal offense (they can legally lie to a citizen though). If he had gun stickers on his car or other things that might cause the officer to suspect he had guns, or he's simply a bad liar, the officer might've coerced him into a search anyway and then he'd be portrayed as some John Wayne Gacy wannabe with multiple charges.
A simple "I'm sorry officer, but I decline to answer any of your questions. May I please have my citation and be on my way?" The key to this approach is sticking to your guns. The officer is not going to stop questioning you, simply because you exercised your rights. :(
Before the laws allowing LE to carry into New Jersey, we were coming home from Giant Stadium. We were stopped by NJSP for speeding. White Camaro with an FOP button on the registration plate.
Trooper approached told us we were speeding. We both badged the Trooper. Without even blinking, the Trooper asked if we were carrying. We both said no. He asked to search the car. We both said no.
There is NO EFFIN WAY this cop was doing anything but trying to arrest another cop/cops for a weapons violation. Fast car, FOP tags and all that cop saw was a cheap pinch for a weapons violation. We most likely weren't even speeding....
Living this close to the communist republic of NJ, I will NEVER support anything LE does that violates the 2A. I feel sorry for anyone who claims that they have to live there.
The whole thing that Ken's friend is going through is a nightmare for any gunowner.
At the very best he is going to have to spend a lot of money to get the charges dismissed.
At the worst he may be looking at prison time and forfieting his right to legally own a gun in the future because of acquiring a criminal background.
I think that with the right legal help he can get this overturned using FOPA, but there also may be language that it applies only to the firearms themselves and not magazines or ammunition.
The 30 rd magazines are a big problem in NJ and I'm afraid might not be covered under the FOPA. The hollowpoint bullets might be dismissed because:
1. They were bullets only and not complete rounds. I *believe* the NJ law only applies to loaded rounds. In this case, if I understand correctly, they were simply the bullet part of the projectile.
2. NJ only prohibits the carrying of them in a gun outside of your home or a range or a hunting field. It does not prohibit buying them at a store, shooting them at a range, having them in your home, or transporting them from the store to your home to the range, etc.
People have still gotten arrested in NJ for things like number 2, only to later have the charges dismissed. Of course this is often after having to go through a terrifying process and having to pay an attorney.
Another reason not to ever visit NJ. This whole thing sucks, every cop I personally know would have said "Get your headlight fixed" and that would have been the end of it but there are unfortunately those that either forgot (or never knew) what discretion is.
I remember the oath I took was to preserve, protect and defend the constitution, and I will never violate that oath.
Larry, I wish the best for Ken's friend as this is a crock of shit.
David Pennington
03-03-13, 21:09
No. In almost every case, lying to an officer is a criminal offense (they can legally lie to a citizen though).
It is usually a bit more complicated than that. While this may vary state to state, simply saying "no" when the real answer is "yes" doesn't usually meet the standard of illegality. Simply denying guilt is not generally illegal.
ie:
"Do you have any weapons in the car."
"No."
Making false reports or offering false narratives to change the focus of an investigation is generally illegal.
ie:
"Did you steal your neighbors dog?"
"No, but Bob down the street did."
The "right" answer is to refuse comment. Often times though, that will only serve to encourage further probing by the officer.
Voluntarily admitting the presence of a weapon in a vehicle gives the officer the legal authority to secure that weapon for officer safety and to search within your wingspan (frequently the entire passenger compartment in a car). In Virginia or Texas telling a cop you have a weapon will frequently yield "Cool, whatcha got?" whereas in New Jersey or Cali it might get you a "Step out of the vehicle and place your hands behind your back" for an investigative detention.
SeriousStudent
03-03-13, 21:10
LAV
Is there anything we can do to help? Donate to his defense etc? Please ask Ken for us, it could have been me that this happened to.
Please add me to that list. If I can donate to assist Mr. Hackathorn's friend, I would like to do so. I will add him to my prayers as well.
Indeed.. That would seem to have been the thing to do. I suppose one could say "the guy was just doing his job" and/but that's exactly why some of us worry "whose side will they be on". I'm afraid that I've been on the receiving end of both extremes. It worries me.. I won't be going to any state that approves these firearm related restrictions either. Ron
I believe a decent AMERICAN, be him/her LEO or not, would have merely said during the stop something to the effect of "buddy.. You are in the wrong place with this stuff, my advice would be to get out of this state with this stuff immediately. Your next stop may not go so well".
That's what a DECENT AMERICAN would have done IMO. Unfortunately that is not what this gentleman ran into. :(
threeheadeddog
03-03-13, 21:19
Let me be clear - I have no problem with Law Enforcement doing their job; but what I do have a MAJOR problem with is when Law Enforcement does not stand up for what is right, decent , and constitutional concerning the citizens of this country; regardless if it falls within the scope of doing their job or not
I didn't serve 20 plus years in spec ops to stand by and let misguided politicians, Cheif LEO's or individual officers make a mockery of the rights I bled, and watched friends die to defend
That's not anti LE in my book - its pro American
Pro American
Pro Freedom
Pro Equality
You would think that would be the general response? It seems that having rights and expecting they be respected is somehow anti-LE.
I agree with you, and hope you take that NRA job.
We are getting too far away from common sense.
SWATcop556
03-03-13, 21:30
It is usually a bit more complicated than that. While this may vary state to state, simply saying "no" when the real answer is "yes" doesn't usually meet the standard of illegality. Simply denying guilt is not generally illegal.
ie:
"Do you have any weapons in the car."
"No."
Making false reports or offering false narratives to change the focus of an investigation is generally illegal.
ie:
"Did you steal your neighbors dog?"
"No, but Bob down the street did."
The "right" answer is to refuse comment. Often times though, that will only serve to encourage further probing by the officer.
Voluntarily admitting the presence of a weapon in a vehicle gives the officer the legal authority to secure that weapon for officer safety and to search within your wingspan (frequently the entire passenger compartment in a car). In Virginia or Texas telling a cop you have a weapon will frequently yield "Cool, whatcha got?" whereas in New Jersey or Cali it might get you a "Step out of the vehicle and place your hands behind your back" for an investigative detention.
Well said. I ask about weapons every stop. If they say yes I usually ask what they are carrying. I work interdiction so my stop technique is different than most are use to.
Belmont31R
03-03-13, 21:37
I thought following orders was not a legal defense since the 40's?
Yes we are at an abyss. We don't have a supreme court ruling on an AWB so all these stupid laws are enforceable, and people get sent to jail. Just like people who wind up in NYC airports with a pistol due to a diverted flight or people simply don't know the laws of every jurisdiction they pass through.
FOPA? A good reason to not compromise! Rarely enacted, and like the Fed's are going to go to bat for a 'gun owner'. They are itching for more gun laws themselves from what Ive seen.
TacMedic556
03-03-13, 21:53
This country is done. We prosecute, clean cut, law abiding straight men who go about their daily lives, unable to keep up with the perplexing onslaught of complex legal labyrinths created by the irrational and illogical nanny state. Meanwhile, the nation pushes itself deeper into the fiscal irresponsibility chasm, stuffing its military with its wives, sisters and daughters to fight its wars along side homosexuals and sometimes inmates. The nation cries out for legalization of Marijuana (I can care less), re-definition of marriage, homosexual scout masters to take our young boys camping (really?), and on top of all this.
ON TOP OF ALL THIS!.....it has declared men like us its enemies! Men who once served in its wars, guarded its homeland, hunted deer, hiked streams, built homes, raised good families , grew crops, raised cattle, OBEYED every MORAL and CIVIL LAW, worked hard to do whats right.......
This leviathan state pursues men like us with a blood lust, a thirst for innocence and civility and ultimately the desire to devour our liberty.
That man arrested, Larry Vickers' friend, that is you, that's me, that's us. It could have been anyone of us that day, a lapse of thought, a burnt out headlight and BAM......you land yourself in a federal pound me in the A$$ prison.
As I said.....this nation is gone.
As I said.....this nation is gone. Time to pack your shit.
Where in the hell are we going to go? We have to dig in and fight back.
thopkins22
03-03-13, 22:03
Where in the hell are we going to go?
Could be fun to just say "**** it, let's start a country." And proceed to take over Mexico. In reality your best bet is to move to a free state and stay there and get active politically.
Of course if things move quickly down this same path before too many Californians get here TX has real potential to throw the bird up at the union and try our hand at nationhood again.... Okies and cajuns are welcome too. ;)
I don't think slick Rick is the man to try it...but you never know.
How do we fight back ? Our elected reps stop caring what their constituents say after they get elected. Look at what's happening in Colorado and all across the country. The only thing most politicians care for is how to line their pockets and further climb the political ladder at any cost.
Without deep pockets to fight these types of cases in court I can't think of any other way.
I wish there was a way to get the NRA involved in situations like this.
montanadave
03-03-13, 22:13
Could be fun to just say "**** it, let's start a country." And proceed to take over Mexico. In reality your best bet is to move to a free state and stay there and get active politically.
Of course if things move quickly down this same path before too many Californians get here TX has real potential to throw the bird up at the union and try our hand at nationhood again.... Okies and cajuns are welcome too. ;)
I don't think slick Rick is the man to try it...but you never know.
An independent nation comprised of Texans, Okies, and Coon-asses?
**** yeah! I'm all in. Well, not in like "I wanna live there." More like, "I'm gonna stay right here in Montana but, damn, I am so lookin' forward to watching this action." :D
What's the new state motto?
Shit, I'm so excited I'll never get to sleep.
thopkins22
03-03-13, 22:19
An independent nation comprised of Texans, Okies, and Coon-asses?
**** yeah! I'm all in. Well, not in like "I wanna live there." More like, "I'm gonna stay right here in Montana but, damn, I am so lookin' forward to watching this action." :D
What's the new state motto?
Shit, I'm so excited I'll never get to sleep.
We'd love to have Montana and Wyoming as territories. Wanna be our Guam? We'll need some place to cool off a bit, hunt elk, ski, fish for big trout etc....
Working on a motto now. I think that with a couple of great catchy phrases it'll take off. We'll even offer political asylum to guys behind enemy lines who own evil guns.
Bolt_Overide
03-03-13, 22:19
You were warned
Whiskey_Bravo
03-03-13, 22:23
Larry I was starting to think what planet you call home yourself, this guy did a stupid thing but everyone is to blame but him. The Cop did his job that he is paid to do enforcing the laws of New Jersey plain and simple. But since you don't agree its OK to bad mouth the cop or a reason to support a anti LEO exemptions sentiment.
Stupid is as stupid does.
Yeah the cop did his job. But what he should have done is tell the guy he shouldn't have that stuff in NJ and tell him to turn around. Law or now, arresting a guy for having a hand full of super dangerous hollow point bullets and m1 mags if beyond ****ing retarded. That cop knows the man in question is facing jail time over some chicken shit law.
The Nazi prison guards where just doing their job as well right? They where just doing what they where paid to do right?
And yeah, I don't agree with the NJ laws, nor with the people that aggressively enforce them and have no problem throwing an innocent person in jail for 3 years for having a couple of harmless bullets and mags.
montanadave
03-03-13, 22:33
We'd love to have Montana and Wyoming as territories. Wanna be our Guam? We'll need some place to cool off a bit, hunt elk, ski, fish for big trout etc....
Working on a motto now. I think that with a couple of great catchy phrases it'll take off. We'll even offer political asylum to guys behind enemy lines who own evil guns.
Territories?
Ya might wanna do a quick Goggle search, particularly the 341st Strategic Missile Wing.
We ain't gonna be anybody's redneck Guam.
Now should you be interested in negotiating some form of mutual defense pact, we might be able to set up a meeting. We are also open to trading big game hunting permits for women.
At the point that the officer asked him if he had any firearms in the car, should he have answered no? Once he admitted that he had the firearm, isn't he almost obligated to let the officer inspect it on the grounds of officer safety?
No. Over the last 3 years I've been pulled over twice. Once by a local deputy and the other by a Mississippi Highway Patrolman. Both times of course I was asked if I had any weapons in my truck. Both times I answered yes, I have a 9mm handgun.
Both the deputy and the patrolman said that's fine just keep both hands on the steering wheel.
No fuss. No trouble and I completely respected the LEO's request to keep my hands in an overt posture. I wasn't acting suspicious or up to anything wrong. Both officers knew that.
Discretion with a bit of common sense. If you wear a badge you should have both or not have the badge at all.
-Jax
Before the laws allowing LE to carry into New Jersey, we were coming home from Giant Stadium. We were stopped by NJSP for speeding. White Camaro with an FOP button on the registration plate.
Trooper approached told us we were speeding. We both badged the Trooper. Without even blinking, the Trooper asked if we were carrying. We both said no. He asked to search the car. We both said no.
There is NO EFFIN WAY this cop was doing anything but trying to arrest another cop/cops for a weapons violation. Fast car, FOP tags and all that cop saw was a cheap pinch for a weapons violation. We most likely weren't even speeding....
Living this close to the communist republic of NJ, I will NEVER support anything LE does that violates the 2A. I feel sorry for anyone who claims that they have to live there.
That's just a freaking sorry officer that lit you up that night. One in every bunch I guess.
-Jax
PA PATRIOT
03-03-13, 23:16
At the point that the officer asked him if he had any firearms in the car, should he have answered no? Once he admitted that he had the firearm, isn't he almost obligated to let the officer inspect it on the grounds of officer safety?
In my state I would have asked the driver if there was a firearm in the vehicle and if they replied yes I would ask its location and type, if it was located in the trunk of the vehicle I would not be concerned and act on the reason for the stop.
If the firearm was in the cab of the vehicle but not on the person or persons in the vehicle then I would ask if the gun was loaded and for the owners permit to carry then have all keep their hands in plain view until my stop was done.
No need to bust balls or handle the firearm unless you feel there is a violation of the law. I always afford every courtesy to CCW's as most times they are the best people to come into contact with. I even give most a pass on the MVC violation I stopped them on just so it does not show up on their record during permit renewal.
Like many have said we are all in this fight together and while their maybe Cop's who do not give breaks for what we consider minor violations of the law on the civilian side there are those who have a preconceived dark opinions of Police that never had a negative contact with one. Both side have their issues but the constant fighting here and on other forums does nothing to improve the issue either way, just more hard feelings.
PA PATRIOT
03-03-13, 23:26
Before the laws allowing LE to carry into New Jersey, we were coming home from Giant Stadium. We were stopped by NJSP for speeding. White Camaro with an FOP button on the registration plate.
Trooper approached told us we were speeding. We both badged the Trooper. Without even blinking, the Trooper asked if we were carrying. We both said no. He asked to search the car. We both said no.
There is NO EFFIN WAY this cop was doing anything but trying to arrest another cop/cops for a weapons violation. Fast car, FOP tags and all that cop saw was a cheap pinch for a weapons violation. We most likely weren't even speeding....
Living this close to the communist republic of NJ, I will NEVER support anything LE does that violates the 2A. I feel sorry for anyone who claims that they have to live there.
CoryCop,
It is almost second nature for a Officer to ask if there is a weapon in the car but when he ask for a consent to search the vehicle that was just plain bull. He should know that you as a LEO would not to allow a voluntary fishing trip search of the vehicle and I have to ask if he wrote the driver for the speeding violation? NYSP are some insane troopers and have been banged for bad stops and searches in the past.
When I carry in NJ I follow the exact restrictions for civilian CCW so not to get jammed up while coasting through.
In my state I would have asked the driver if there was a firearm in the vehicle and if they replied yes I would ask its location and type, if it was located in the trunk of the vehicle I would not be concerned and act on the reason for the stop.
In TX we are required to notify the officer if we have a CCW permit and are carrying at the time we are stopped. In a state like TX (and a whole host of other states) I would not be afraid to answer an officer's question regarding firarms in the car.
However, NJ is a whole different matter. NJ has been notorious for causing grief to people passing through who happen to have guns in their cars as well as to their own citizens. I can personally remember hearing about and reading about problems of this sort in NJ over the past 30 years.
We'd love to have Montana and Wyoming as territories. Wanna be our Guam? We'll need some place to cool off a bit, hunt elk, ski, fish for big trout etc....
Working on a motto now. I think that with a couple of great catchy phrases it'll take off. We'll even offer political asylum to guys behind enemy lines who own evil guns.
I can tell you right now that you will never get Wyoming by being from Texas and saying "You want to be our Guam." That will get you punched in the face... ;) Wyomingites don't like people telling them what to do, especially Texans.
The cop did his job plain and simple and if that hurts your feelings I could care less. But its always everyone else's fault I know but I'm so ****ing tried of the Anti L/E bullshit on the forum from now on I will speak my peace and let the chips fall were they may.
I'm definitely not anti le. I will say that it's folks like you who lack the ability to apply DISCRETION that are sad human beings. "Did my job..." doesn't mean much since there are numerous ways problems can be solved. I wasn't there and don't know anything about the parties involved so I am not going to inject my opinions into this. But your stance clearly indicates an individual who lacks the ability to apply discretion in solving problems. We need problem solvers, not robots.
thopkins22
03-03-13, 23:52
I can tell you right now that you will never get Wyoming by being from Texas and saying "You want to be our Guam." That will get you punched in the face... ;) Wyomingites don't like people telling them what to do, especially Texans.
'Twas a joke.... :p
I have been talking to my good friend Ken Hackathorn a lot lately about all this AWB and magazine ban stuff ; we are in total agreement about LEO's in ban states not having an exemption for standard capacity magazines, etc.
Yesterday he shared a very sad tale about a buddy of his that lives in NC and does the gun show circuit - buying and selling and picking up inventory from different gunshops, etc.
This guy was driving thru New Jersey to linkup with a buyer of a Winchester pre 64 Model 70 bolt gun- unfortunately for him he had a headlight out; because of this he was pulled over
The officer asked him if he had any firearms in the car - he said yes a bolt action hunting rifle - the officer wanted to see it; upon inspection the officer noticed a few M1 Carbine 30 rd mags ( empty ) - of course then the shit hit the fan and the resulting search of the vehicle the police found hollow point handgun projectiles - bullets only not loaded ammo; all this and more was part of some stuff he had gotten at a gunshop for selling at an upcoming gunshow
Well you can guess the rest; the car and everything was seized - including the cash he had on him- he got his car back finally but his NJ state lawyer told him he is facing 3 years in prison ; he said he is going to get convicted, no way to get him 'off ', but he is going to try his best to keep him from doing any jail time
Now maybe all the LEO's that frequent this forum might have a clue why us 'citizens' might be a bit hardheaded when it comes to LEO exemptions of any kind - it is because that slippery slope leads to places like New Jersey or worse Great Britian where SAS combat veterans face prison for having a handgun in their kit after returning from a combat deployment
I'll say it again - we are in the fight of our lives - we have to give it our all because the country we grew up in may not exist in the future; we are on the edge of the abyss
Not that I'm laying blame, but I wouldn't enter NJ for ANY REASON let alone to sell a bolt action rifle to a resident of that state. He might as well have brought a kilo of heroin with him, he'd probably have been treated better.
All it takes is one "ooops I forgot" and not only are you arrested and facing time, you actually become a convicted felon and lose your rights back home.
This is why BAN STATES are a threat to the freedom and liberty of EVERY US CITIZEN. Sometimes you have to drive through them to get where you are going and it seems nobody remembers FOPA.
Anytime a cop or anyone else asks to see what's in your car or house, you kindlytell them to F OFF. When they ask why, and imply your hiding something, you tell them, "NO, I just don't care to have my rights infringed". You MUST NOT have ANY questionable items sitting in plain sight of the asshole who is trying to infringe upon your rights however, or they'll get a warrant.
Bingo. Rule #1: Never speak to Police. Rule #2: Never speak to Police. Rule #3: Never consent to anything they request. Rule #4: Never speak to Police. Rule #5: Never leave any object remotely regulated in plain view (guns, meds, beverages, etc). Rule # 6: never speak to police.
I believe a decent AMERICAN, be him/her LEO or not, would have merely said during the stop something to the effect of "buddy.. You are in the wrong place with this stuff, my advice would be to get out of this state with this stuff immediately. Your next stop may not go so well".
That's what a DECENT AMERICAN would have done IMO. Unfortunately that is not what this gentleman ran into. :(
Exactly. But really, it shouldn't even have gone that far.
"Sir, do you have any firearms with you?"
"Respectfully, on the advice of my attorney, I refuse to answer any questions during a detainment. You've made me aware of my headlight being out. Was there anything else or am I free to go?"
Or maybe
" . . . . . . . . . . "
PA PATRIOT
03-04-13, 01:41
I'm definitely not anti le. I will say that it's folks like you who lack the ability to apply DISCRETION that are sad human beings. "Did my job..." doesn't mean much since there are numerous ways problems can be solved. I wasn't there and don't know anything about the parties involved so I am not going to inject my opinions into this. But your stance clearly indicates an individual who lacks the ability to apply discretion in solving problems. We need problem solvers, not robots.
Have you read my last few posts in this thread? I have discretion and use it all the time but if a Officer decides to enforce a law or ordinance then that is his prerogative. Does this make him a bad guy? Not really as he has the option to go either way and sometimes the arrest is warranted and other times a warning will suffice.
The point you are missing is this. Yes, it's the law- we get that. What Larry is saying (I think) is that this is a perfect example of why civilians are pissed about LEO's getting exemptions and the average person does not. So now we have a guy (who was not a criminal) going to prison for a few years and then losing his 2nd Amendments rights because of some bullshit law that does nothing to protect society in any way, because your average street thug gives a shit.
Larry I was starting to think what planet you call home yourself, this guy did a stupid thing but everyone is to blame but him. The Cop did his job that he is paid to do enforcing the laws of New Jersey plain and simple. But since you don't agree its OK to bad mouth the cop or a reason to support a anti LEO exemptions sentiment.
Stupid is as stupid does.
PA PATRIOT
03-04-13, 01:59
The point you are missing is this. Yes, it's the law- we get that. What Larry is saying (I think) is that this is a perfect example of why civilians are pissed about LEO's getting exemptions and the average person does not. So now we have a guy (who was not a criminal) going to prison for a few years and then losing his 2nd Amendments rights because of some bullshit law that does nothing to protect society in any way, because your average street thug gives a shit.
Me and Larry cleared up are discussion points some pages back, my latest reply has nothing to do with the NJ incident and I'm only speaking in general terms of Officer discretion when I'M directly asked a question and nothing more.
But in review this is a dead horse thats been beaten to a pulp so this will be my last post on the subject.
Have you read my last few posts in this thread? I have discretion and use it all the time but if a Officer decides to enforce a law or ordinance then that is his prerogative. Does this make him a bad guy? Not really as he has the option to go either way and sometimes the arrest is warranted and other times a warning will suffice.
That is the point the officer had the discretion to charge him, and did like a twatwaffle. Any officer who would do so is an ass unless the subject is already getting charged with dope or something. Just becasue it is a law does not make it right. There are a few laws I myself don't enforce becasue it is my discretion. And that would be one of them.
Should he have had it in his car NO because NJ sucks. But it is still a dick thing to do to someone who other wise would not have been a criminal. And yes I think it does make him a bad guy, because he turned him into a criminal over bullshit.
Moose-Knuckle
03-04-13, 02:21
Lady Liberty weeps . . . :suicide:
Who is the governor of NJ again that is enjoying 75% approval rating? Supposedly a "conservative?" Sounds more like the mafia. Seems many governors and mayors of the NYC/NJ area see themselves in mo terms and are proud of their heavy handed ways. At least from the shenanigans I hear in the news, maybe they are really sweet guys in real life. :rolleyes:
Things are really screwed up when someone passing through a state can be ruined for life over possession of incidental items. What the hell good is a supposedly recognized right by the federal govt if any state can infringe it willy nilly?
I am all for states' rights, but only after individual rights. A person should not have to be a multi-state attorney in order to not have any of their "inalienable rights" trounced upon while traveling from one state to another.
I agree with Larry, if LEOs were forced to work under the same prohibitions that civilians must live and survive under in their locality, there would be a lot fewer police there, or not such stupid laws. Give the police an exemption and suddenly they are all for more and more prohibitions. I do not believe they are neutral in these politics when they are promised an exemption. Sure there is some fraction that will stand up for us civilians but the majority and their political support? They are in bed with the very politicians tightening the ratchet on the average citizen.
In some of our states the local police are standing up, and have stood up to protect the 2A, but the NYC-Boston region, CA, DC are seemingly lost to reason.
I would tend to think any LEO living in NJ might be a left leaning guy who thinks only they should have guns and is happy to bust anyone with anything purely based on the stats of who lives in NJ
Now in small town Texas or Arizona I dont think you would have those types as LEO and would be more conservative types ? Purely based on stats !
Sadly this is a battle of folks who think the 2nd should be changed or restricted
Now considering at least 1/3 does not like us and the other 1/3 is ok to restrict us I kinda figure liberal states are full of liberals and they work and some work as LEO so chances are pretty good in a lib state being pulled over by a lib LEO
Stay out of states that are like this ! Vote with your feet and move or avoid them
In some ways its good that stories like this get out shows what we are up against !
To blindly think OH all LEO are on are side is BLIND
ffhounddog
03-04-13, 04:50
I thought Hollow points were okay for hunting in New Jersey? Last I heard they were.
I agree never answer anything a police officer asks. My wife is a Police Officer she tells me the same thing. Never say a thing. We got pulled over in Maryland going to Pittsburgh when we were pulled over for a random DUI stop at 7 pm on a Friday. They asked me to get out and she said he is not going anywhere until you have a warrant. As soon as you step out of the car she said it is game on. They can do anything to you because it is public property.
Not that I'm laying blame, but I wouldn't enter NJ for ANY REASON let alone to sell a bolt action rifle to a resident of that state. He might as well have brought a kilo of heroin with him, he'd probably have been treated better.
All it takes is one "ooops I forgot" and not only are you arrested and facing time, you actually become a convicted felon and lose your rights back home.
This is why BAN STATES are a threat to the freedom and liberty of EVERY US CITIZEN. Sometimes you have to drive through them to get where you are going and it seems nobody remembers FOPA.
FOPA is a defense, it probably won't stop you from getting arrested because you'd have to prove you were passing through the state and not staying there besides for rest breaks, getting gas, etc. If he was going through NJ to deal in NJ, FOPA provides no protection.
But FOPA can protect you from a conviction and prevent a felony on your record, and get back all your property. Even a free public defender should be able to get you off with FOPA if you are indeed just passing through.
I also see no reason to enter NJ, regardless of their firearms laws!
FOPA is a defense, it probably won't stop you from getting arrested because you'd have to prove you were passing through the state and not staying there besides for rest breaks, getting gas, etc. If he was going through NJ to deal in NJ, FOPA provides no protection.
Hopefully he exercised his right to remain silent at the time of arrest. If they know where he was headed or what he was doing, it's nobody's fault but his. Unfortunately.
30 cal slut
03-04-13, 06:03
IMO Unless you are shown a warrant DO NOT allow ANY officer to go through your stuff. Be it your home, vehicle, business, etc. You can grant consent but that's your call. If you are in a state that is hostile to the 2A you know that some (not most, not many, but some) LE will be out just to make a case. There is such a thing as Officer Discretion and I wish more LE would use it.
If I might add:
I have been advised by a friendly NJ SWAT LEO, that under NJ law, a search warrant is required to search your car. Do not allow a search without it!
Larry Vickers
03-04-13, 06:04
Ken's buddy knows he screwed up big time but this guy is probably 55-60 years old, has been doing the gun show circuit for decades, and no doubt is used to how things are in REAL states like NC, SC, GA, AL, VA, and others
He just had a senior citizens moment going into the cesspool that is the NorthEastern part of the USA ( sorry Vermont and Maine ) and probably thought 'no big deal, all I have is a bolt gun' and got stopped
For that he is facing jail - I don't know if the guy is a veteran or not but hat would be the icing on the cake
30 cal slut
03-04-13, 06:07
I would tend to think any LEO living in NJ might be a left leaning guy ..
I've met a few in this forum (training with LAV) who are stand-up guys.
Larry Vickers
03-04-13, 06:07
Another thing I'll say - unfortunately all it takes is one bad encounter with an LEO and someone's attitude toward them will change forever- it's that classic '1 ah shit wipes out 10 attaboys '!!
Sad but true
Larry Vickers
03-04-13, 06:08
I've met a few in this forum (training with LAV) who are stand-up guys.
Yes MAP is a great guy - but he also left NJ the second he could after retiring as Chief of Police- that's called a clue
30 cal slut
03-04-13, 06:16
Yes MAP is a great guy - but he also left NJ the second he could after retiring as Chief of Police- that's called a clue
LOL. I wonder if I'm not too far behind him. ;)
Seriously, this area is becoming a foreign country.
This thread has grown quickly and I haven't read every post, but if I recall he was not charged for the bolt action as implied on this page. Any weapon legal in the state can be carried in a vehicle so long as it is not loaded and preferably in the trunk.
We have our problems here and then some but no point in losing sight of facts.
Edit: Yes, hollow points are also legal in NJ. The officer was negligent in charging him but it's no surprise.
In Virginia or Texas telling a cop you have a weapon will frequently yield "Cool, whatcha got?"
Got stopped for speeding a couple of years ago on my way to the range. I had multiple drag, pistol and range bags in my cargo area clearly visible to the officer thru my drivers side windows. Never even asked if I had weapons. He didn't pay any attention to them whatsoever. God bless Texas!
Ken's buddy knows he screwed up big time but this guy is probably 55-60 years old, has been doing the gun show circuit for decades, and no doubt is used to how things are in REAL states like NC, SC, GA, AL, VA, and others.
Interesting because VA and even the don't dare consider it FL went blue the last election. It all starts there gentleman.
I have been an inner city cop for over 20 years. In my opinion, the job of LEO's are to ensure that order is kept, this is done by enforcing the laws on the books. Sadly, common sense does not seem very common to some cops. Not every law breaker needs or has to be arrested, as they realize the error made and seem willing to not make the same mistake again. This is why we can give warning tickets. Our job is not to be punitive, punishment is reserved for the courts to dish out, we merely report the crimes if further action is needed. If a law breaker can show me on the spot that he realizes his mistake and appears willing to change his behavior, ie: drive slower, have 2 working headlights etc.., there is no need for me to report his actions to the courts for punishment. Some cops forget where they come from and they are no different than the people they police, people do make mistakes and learn from them. I also am very aware that our society is full of complete animals and predators and no law will keep them in line. Those people need locked up and put away so that the decent folks can live in peace.
Bolt_Overide
03-04-13, 08:11
Since my first response was deemed to coarse, I will attempt to try a kinder, gentler approach.
It seems that here lately on M4C that we are increasingly polarizing into two groups. LEO's, and non LEO's.
To be sure there are shit stirrers on both sides of the fence, both people who bash LEO's no matter what, and LEO's who cannot abide the thought of a fellow LEO ever being in the wrong.
While I completely understand what its like to be bashed constantly doing a thankless job, I have to wonder. At what time does it become OK to say that those from whom your power and authority derive have no ability, reason, or right to question an LEO's actions?
I would submit that if the job has gotten to the point where you see things as you (LEO's) vs the citizenry, or that you cannot take things that are part of the job (being questioned, politely or not), it might be time to consider a different calling.
Any LEO or soldier, to my mind at least, has a duty to examine every order they are given to see if it passes the litmus test of constitutionality. Just because some ass hat politician says you must arrest a man for doing something completely benign in total ignorance doesn't mean that its right, or that you should. The "I was just doing my job" mantra is not cutting it. We don't want robots enforcing our laws or protecting our communities.
New Jersey has long been in need of liberation and war crimes tribunals.
I'm guessing when push comes to shove, that particular commissar isn't going to make it beyond the "he said, look I washed for supper" phase.
This is what happens to media whores after liberation, in case any commies reporters are combing M4C.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Streicher
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Joyce
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/96/Dead_juliusstreicher.JPG
Larry I was starting to think what planet you call home yourself, this guy did a stupid thing but everyone is to blame but him. The Cop did his job that he is paid to do enforcing the laws of New Jersey plain and simple. But since you don't agree its OK to bad mouth the cop or a reason to support a anti LEO exemptions sentiment.
Stupid is as stupid does.
Not all laws need to be "enforced." Sometimes, the LEO has to use some common sense about the situation.
C4
This entire sitatuion is filled with stupid.
#1 The cop is nothing but a jack booted thug who got his little pecker all hard after discovering he had bagged a "terrorist." For ****s sake guy, cut the driver some slack. What, you get bonus points on your eval for this shit? Use some common sense. Don't be the problem, be the solution. Don't tell me LEOs are constrained by the law. They exercise judgment all the time when making stops. I've run this by deputies and officers I know here. So far I've yet to run into one that agreed with anything beyond the stop. Unfortunately they know of a few officers who would gladly go along. Goddamn I have cheese eaters.
#2 The entire state of NJ and it's government. It's a shit hole with shit hole laws based on hyperbole and emotionalism. The people are the reason to blame. More "I know what freedoms you deserve" shit. Being from NY ages ago I couldn't be happier if that entire section of the country were to disappear.
#3 The guy who knowingly drove into enemy territory with "contraband". You know the hell you'll get for going to the sandbox with a bible, porn or booze. likewise you know the hell you'll get for driving into a stupid state with retarted laws. Notice that from what has been said the FOPA wouldn't have helped at all since his destination appears to be in the People's Republic of NJ. Had his destination been some place like Maine, Pennsylvania, or New Hampshire he would have been home free or have one hell of a lawsuit pay day in his future. Also he should have never given consent. Short of that lie your ass off. If you know you have contraband then you know you are going to the butt-hut anways. So why not go for broke?
I am not saying that he should have been arrested. I am not saying that he deserved this for tempting fate. I am not saying that he should be forced to lie. It's all bullshit. He should never have had to face this to begin with. But there is how the world should be and what reality is.
Ideal conclusion to this cluster****:
A - Enough public pressure is brought to bear so that the state decides to drop the charges or like NY has in the pre Newton recent past, drop the charges to a misdemeanor.
B - Amend the FOPA to cover these situations and others where airline travelers become stranded overnight.
C - Christie grows some balls and pardons him.
Way less ideal situation:
He gets convicted, appeals and gets the conviction overturned.
The reality:
I'll win the lottery and get to be the center of attention in an orgy where I'm the only guy before nubmers 4 through 6 occur.
Potential work around:
People, especially like him, need to establish a network of safe storage places or buddies where you can deposit your "contraband" and then pick it up once leaving enemy territory. In fact in June I'm going to need someone in VA close to DC that can store some stuff for me for a few days. I'm going to the BSA Jamboree this summer, but the boys are taking a side trip to DC for a couple of days of sight seeing.
Not all laws need to be "enforced." Sometimes, the LEO has to use some common sense about the situation.
C4
Exactly. Discretion, its a tool we have....use it.
So when will the NRA be assigning a lawyer to defend this man, which would also help overturn our unjust laws? Larry...why should it not be?
Not all laws need to be "enforced." Sometimes, the LEO has to use some common sense about the situation.
C4
Exactly... and here's more examples.
http://www.dumblaws.com/laws/united-states/new-jersey
I read somewhere here that oral sex is still illegal in 18 states. Like my wife needs another excuse... :rolleyes:
Sent from my HTC One V using Tapatalk 2
I have been an inner city cop for over 20 years. In my opinion, the job of LEO's are to ensure that order is kept, this is done by enforcing the laws on the books. Sadly, common sense does not seem very common to some cops. Not every law breaker needs or has to be arrested, as they realize the error made and seem willing to not make the same mistake again. This is why we can give warning tickets. Our job is not to be punitive, punishment is reserved for the courts to dish out, we merely report the crimes if further action is needed. If a law breaker can show me on the spot that he realizes his mistake and appears willing to change his behavior, ie: drive slower, have 2 working headlights etc.., there is no need for me to report his actions to the courts for punishment. Some cops forget where they come from and they are no different than the people they police, people do make mistakes and learn from them. I also am very aware that our society is full of complete animals and predators and no law will keep them in line. Those people need locked up and put away so that the decent folks can live in peace.
Excellent post, you are a great asset to Ohio!
Ok guys here's the deal as I don't want to ding anyone else...
Calling cops jack booted thugs is what I consider "bait" and "instigating a response", it's begging for a negative response, so stop using it. There are other ways to illustrate your point.
On the flip side, I swear to God if I see one more person tell me that a cop is just doing his job, I am going to punch a kitten in the face, twice. Stop that too....
Thanks.
30 cal slut
03-04-13, 09:17
So when will the NRA be assigning a lawyer to defend this man, which would also help overturn our unjust laws? Larry...why should it not be?
NRA? Defend this man? :lol:
Larry,
I have the utmost respect for you but the fact that the laws are stupid does not change the fact that they are there.
I agree the problem is that NJ has stupid laws, and I would love to see them go away, but they are on the books and we have to comply.
I don't have 30rd mags, sure it sucks, but its better than going to jail.
Your friend should not have gone into the state with prohibited items.
It sucks, but that is the deal.
30 cal slut
03-04-13, 09:32
TENN. TOURIST FACES 3 YEARS IN PRISON FOR TRYING TO CHECK HER GUN AT 9/11 MEMORIAL
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2011/12/30/tenn-tourist-faces-3-years-in-prison-for-trying-to-check-her-gun-at-911-memorial/
30 cal slut
03-04-13, 09:36
Traveling Man's Gun Arrest Appealed to Supreme Court
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/01/18/traveling-mans-gun-arrest-appealed-supreme-court/#ixzz2MaOpsBcR
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/01/18/traveling-mans-gun-arrest-appealed-supreme-court/
SCOTUS denies Cert in His Appeal
http://warshawskylawfirm.com/lawyer/2011/01/21/Civil_Rights_Law/U.S._Supreme_Court_Denies_Cert_In_Important_Gun_Rights_Case,_Revell_v._Port_Authority_of_New_York___New_Jersey._bl1727.htm
30 cal slut
03-04-13, 09:38
Decorated Army Veteran Arrested in NY For Possession of 30 Round AR Magazines
http://gunssavelives.net/blog/decorated-army-veteran-arrested-in-ny-for-possession-of-30-round-ar-magazines/#
30 cal slut
03-04-13, 09:39
Woman arrested for having gun at Sears Tower
http://www.dailyillini.com/news/article_0c3af3fa-9e6d-56d9-9030-04f899d21c5b.html
30 cal slut
03-04-13, 09:40
Tea Party member arrested on gun charge at NY airport
http://www.cnn.com/2011/12/15/justice/new-york-tea-party-arrest
30 cal slut
03-04-13, 09:44
MILLER: D.C. arrests vet for unregistered ammunition
http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2012/jul/1/miller-dc-arrests-vet-arrested-unregistered-ammuni/
30 cal slut
03-04-13, 09:47
WOUNDED MILITARY VET’S GUNS CONFISCATED BY D.C. POLICE — AND HE CAN’T SEEM TO GET THEM BACK
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2012/05/15/wounded-military-vets-guns-confiscated-by-d-c-police-and-he-cant-seem-to-get-them-back/
MILLER: D.C. arrests vet for unregistered ammunition
http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2012/jul/1/miller-dc-arrests-vet-arrested-unregistered-ammuni/
Those are all good links bro, but it sure would be nice if they were all in 1 post and not 7 posts. ;)
30 cal slut
03-04-13, 09:51
I don't mean to be a pain posting all of these, but hey this hits close to home because I too once fell victim to this nonsense.
When traveling through restricted locales - HI, CA, IL, MD, D.C., NY/NJ, CT, MA ...
Do check up on local gun laws regarding possession and transport of items.
Don't rely on FOPA to get you out of trouble. I do remember a time when the NJ AG said it wouldn't comply with FOPA! (Different story today).
Each state is different. Did you know that mere possession of a spent shell without the proper license is an arrestable offense in Massachusetts? (Never mind guns and mags and live ammo!)
Decent resource, bears repeating here:
handgunlaw.us
ICANHITHIMMAN
03-04-13, 10:01
Why was he asked if he had any weapons in the first place?
Why was he asked if he had any weapons in the first place?
I believe it is SOP. Oddly, I have never been asked the question in VA. So it may just be SOP in states where guns, mags and ammo types are severely limited by law.
[QUOTE=30 cal slut;1569277]
Each state is different. Did you know that mere possession of a spent shell without the proper license is an arrestable offense in Massachusetts? (Never mind guns and mags and live ammo!)
That is scary as I'm sure many of us have spent cases ejected straight into the back of our pickup trucks while shooting from the open tailgate area...:mad:
As a TX CCL holder, I have to (by law) tell the officer if I have a gun and show him my CCL...whether I like this law or not...I know my state's laws, and will answer an officer when this question comes up...although he usually gets my license before even questioning me, therefore already knows.
Side story:
I was stopped by a TX State Trooper late one night (I was probably only going 5 over, but it was late so he stopped me). He walks up to my window where I had the DL and CCL waiting on him, he looks it over, doesn't even bat an eye, and proceeds to carry on with his stop and telling me why he stopped me. I had to interject just to be sure he saw my license, and his response was simply, "yeah I know"...and then proceeded. Awesome interaction with a LE and honestly how it should be. I've actually yet to (personally) encounter an officer here that gets antsy over a CCL...and yet to get a ticket :p
I know this has been touched on, but I'm still not sure if I understand what the right answer is...
If I happen to be passing through another state, that may not be as friendly to firearms, and the officer asks if I have a firearm with me, am I required to tell him anything? Or am I required to answer "for the safety of the officer"? Can it be treated somewhat like the "immigration checkpoints" that a recent thread discussed (without some of the smartass-ness)?
So this in the worst way answered my question about visiting my girlfriend in New Jersey and bringing my guns. Though it is neutered to be "safe" in CA, it is not "safe" for New Jersey.
Sorry but I am only "anti" LE when they enforce laws like these. This reminds me of a story on a Police forum I read where this cop claiming to be a "gun nut," himself arrested another gun owner for having his bullet button too loose.
Heavy Metal
03-04-13, 10:44
It's to the point than the northeast and California can't be invaded, only liberated.
So this in the worst way answered my question about visiting my girlfriend in New Jersey and bringing my guns. Though it is neutered to be "safe" in CA, it is not "safe" for New Jersey.
Sorry but I am only "anti" LE when they enforce laws like these. This reminds me of a story on a Police forum I read where this cop claiming to be a "gun nut," himself arrested another gun owner for having his bullet button too loose.
My thoughts exactly. I know it may be hard for some to care given they already have a stable career and are not the ones living with these charges but even the smallest of charges will follow you around the rest of your life. I'm still being treated like a criminal for a Class E misdemeanor crime I committed 9+ years ago. I paid a couple hundred dollars in fines if my memory serves me correctly.. I've grown up and learned my lessons, the hard way. That being said - I do not expect it to go away any time soon.
I really do feel bad for this guy in the OP.
I know this has been touched on, but I'm still not sure if I understand what the right answer is...
If I happen to be passing through another state, that may not be as friendly to firearms, and the officer asks if I have a firearm with me, am I required to tell him anything? Or am I required to answer "for the safety of the officer"? Can it be treated somewhat like the "immigration checkpoints" that a recent thread discussed (without some of the smartass-ness)?
I know in OK that OK DPS now has the ability to determine if you have a CCW by running your DL. It's the same issuing agency here. That said, if you're not legal to possess whatever you have in a communist state, I doubt there's an additional charge for failure to notify. I know of no law that requires you to admit to a crime or face an additional charge.
Simply put, we have free states and not-so-free states. I will never willingly travel to a not-so free state. There is nothing in these not-so-free states that's worth visiting or buying or selling or whatever to make it worth my while. If I must go there (which will likely be against my will), I would not carry so much as a lockblade knife or pepper spray there. I wouldn't spend a dime I didn't have to while there and I'd leave the second an opportunity presented itself.
The people who responsible for ruining these not-so-free states are the primary reason I hate people in general. They can all DIAF for all I care. :mad:
Voodoo_Man
03-04-13, 10:53
Just going to interject my .02 - do not really care for responses as what I am going to state is common sense and/or fact.
Most NJ PD's have cameras in their vehicles. Most of those cameras are reviewed by those officers supervisors or their internal affairs, or people within the department if not on purpose could be for a random audit of actions - most departments that have cameras in country have these procedures/systems in place. (Especially the NJSP)
If that NJ officer asked the question relating to gun, then found all these guns, mags, hollow points, etc then what exactly was he supposed to do? Being on camera? Maybe he should have just taken off his badge and gun, left it with that person and walked home? Because that is exactly what would have happened if any superior would have watched that video. What officer in this country, especially on this board, would have quit instead of making that arrest?
Sometimes the job of a LEO is very ****ed up. Sometimes there are there are things that we do not want to do and we get ourselves into by sheer luck or an unexpected circumstance. Every bone in that officers body could have told him to not make this arrest or to just let that person go, but that officer is not a lawyer, he not a judge, he is not exactly what people on here whine and complain about at any given moment, especially when an officer makes a mistake publicly. That officer did exactly what he swore an oath to do, uphold the laws of his state. There is a reason why the JUSTICE SYSTEM exists. It is to differentiate between the criminals and the common folk. It is to give leeway to the person who made a mistake and provide rehabilitation or punitive measures to someone who is a habitual offender.
Faulting that officer for his actions and calling a state like NJ a "communist state" does not go hand in hand. The fault is in the legislation allowed by the citizens of NJ, it is in the .gov houses of NJ and in political climate of that state. The officer has/had and will have literally, ZERO control over what laws he/she can enforce and in the manner those crimes are sentenced in court. While officers do have discretionary abilities, for a crime above a motor vehicle violation there should be no discretion (last sentence in my personal opinion).
Now it is clear that this is a bad situation and that a good person made an honest mistake and was arrested because of it in a state not so friendly to something we hold near and dear to our hearts. The only way to change this from happening again is to educate and call for change from the legislators and .gov fatcats in the NJ political hierarchy, not to misdirect anger towards an individual officer.
Faulting that officer for his actions and calling a state like NJ a "communist state" does not go hand in hand. The fault is in the legislation allowed by the citizens of NJ, it is in the .gov houses of NJ and in political climate of that state. The officer has/had and will have literally, ZERO control over what laws he/she can enforce and in the manner those crimes are sentenced in court. While officers do have discretionary abilities, for a crime above a motor vehicle violation there should be no discretion (last sentence in my personal opinion).
Now it is clear that this is a bad situation and that a good person made an honest mistake and was arrested because of it in a state not so friendly to something we hold near and dear to our hearts. The only way to change this from happening again is to educate and call for change from the legislators and .gov fatcats in the NJ political hierarchy, not to misdirect anger towards an individual officer.
If the officer is so scared of losing his job because he used officer discretion, and the laws and departmental policies are such that he has this fear, he IS living in a communist state. If this guy gets jailed because he has a couple of metal boxes in his trunk and the officer is not allowed to exercise good judgement, it IS a communist state.
We do not require Big Brother looking over our shoulders all day, every day. If they are, they have instituted a COMMUNIST STATE! People have been calling it the People's Republic of New Jersey for decades, and for good reason, the people of NJ have no common sense! They were given one of the best systems of government in the modern world, a Constitutional Republic. They have misused this system of government to make criminals of American citizens with zero criminal intent. They have intimidated, coerced, bribed, threatened, ruined and otherwise scared people to the point that they've destroyed their own system of government. Many of us wouldn't set one foot inside the PRNJ on a bet!
New Jersey has earned every bit of the bad reputation they have. If they don't like it, then perhaps they should drag themselves out of their own filth and make a change for the better? :confused:
If the officer is so scared of losing his job because he used officer discretion, and the laws and departmental policies are such that he has this fear, he IS living in a communist state. If this guy gets jailed because he has a couple of metal boxes in his trunk and the officer is not allowed to exercise good judgement, it IS a communist state.
We do not require Big Brother looking over our shoulders all day, every day. If they are, they have instituted a COMMUNIST STATE! People have been calling it the People's Republic of New Jersey for decades, and for good reason, the people of NJ have no common sense! They were given one of the best systems of government in the modern world, a Constitutional Republic. They have misused this system of government to make criminals of American citizens with zero criminal intent. They have intimidated, coerced, bribed, threatened, ruined and otherwise scared people to the point that they've destroyed their own system of government. Many of us wouldn't set one foot inside the PRNJ on a bet!
New Jersey has earned every bit of the bad reputation they have. If they don't like it, then perhaps they should drag themselves out of their own filth and make a change for the better? :confused:
Keep in mind there are more important things on the NJ legislature and Christie's agenda to worry about than natural rights.
Like OK'ing internet gambling. ;)
Larry,
I have the utmost respect for you but the fact that the laws are stupid does not change the fact that they are there.
I agree the problem is that NJ has stupid laws, and I would love to see them go away, but they are on the books and we have to comply.
I don't have 30rd mags, sure it sucks, but its better than going to jail.
Your friend should not have gone into the state with prohibited items.
It sucks, but that is the deal.
Maybe the unconstitutional laws of your state should only apply to those who live there and are responsible for them to begin with. If it is a victimless crime, is it in fact a crime?
Who's liberties were infringed upon by this man having a couple of pieces of plastic in his trunk (or wherever it was)?
Nobody has said that the guy didn't make a mistake, however the punishment far outweighs the "crime"... It also seems like a lot of innocent folks are getting caught in the snares of a law intended for the citizens of NJ/NY.
It is sad that we are even having this conversation.
Voodoo_Man
03-04-13, 11:14
If the officer is so scared of losing his job because he used officer discretion, and the laws and departmental policies are such that he has this fear, he IS living in a communist state. If this guy gets jailed because he has a couple of metal boxes in his trunk and the officer is not allowed to exercise good judgement, it IS a communist state.
We do not require Big Brother looking over our shoulders all day, every day. If they are, they have instituted a COMMUNIST STATE! People have been calling it the People's Republic of New Jersey for decades, and for good reason, the people of NJ have no common sense! They were given one of the best systems of government in the modern world, a Constitutional Republic. They have misused this system of government to make criminals of American citizens with zero criminal intent. They have intimidated, coerced, bribed, threatened, ruined and otherwise scared people to the point that they've destroyed their own system of government. Many of us wouldn't set one foot inside the PRNJ on a bet!
New Jersey has earned every bit of the bad reputation they have. If they don't like it, then perhaps they should drag themselves out of their own filth and make a change for the better? :confused:
I completely agree that NJ is a big communist state, I avoid it at all costs and make sure I have no business there.
I cannot agree with you about the officer and his actions. It is easy to sit behind a computer and say these things, when you are not the one making the decisions or being put into these situations.
I completely agree that NJ is a big communist state, I avoid it at all costs and make sure I have no business there.
I cannot agree with you about the officer and his actions. It is easy to sit behind a computer and say these things, when you are not the one making the decisions or being put into these situations.
All I said was that either the officer didn't care to to use officer discretion, or he was too scared to use it as you suggested. Either way, I blame the atmosphere in NJ. It matters not the why, the what is all consuming at this point. :(
I am glad a State Trooper used discretion with me when I was younger & dumber. I got stopped at a State Trooper road block checking for license & insurance. When he saw that I had several rifles & shotguns in my back seat along with targets, all he said was “See that fat Trooper on the other side of the highway? If he had stopped you, your ass would be going to jail right now. Move it on out.”
Voodoo_Man
03-04-13, 11:23
All I said was that either the officer didn't care to to use officer discretion, or he was too scared to use it as you suggested. Either way, I blame the atmosphere in NJ. It matters not the why, the what is all consuming at this point. :(
We will disagree then.
It my contention that the officer did not have discretion in this situation and any exercise of it would have had direct negative consequences for that officer.
If the officer is so scared of losing his job because he used officer discretion, and the laws and departmental policies are such that he has this fear, he IS living in a communist state. If this guy gets jailed because he has a couple of metal boxes in his trunk and the officer is not allowed to exercise good judgement, it IS a communist state.
Bingo. Time to pull the eject handle and gtfo of NJ or where ever..
CarlosDJackal
03-04-13, 11:37
If the officer is so scared of losing his job because he used officer discretion, and the laws and departmental policies are such that he has this fear, he IS living in a communist state. If this guy gets jailed because he has a couple of metal boxes in his trunk and the officer is not allowed to exercise good judgement, it IS a communist state...
Agreed. But this does not change anything in the scheme of things. Each jurisdiction can implement Draconian laws that apply to everyone, including Law Enforcement Officers if they want.
I find it ironic that people complain when LEOs are given exclusions to certain laws but also complain when LEOs have to follow the letter of the law because their ability to exercise any discretion has been effectively mitigated (look up Domestic Violence Laws as introduced by Lautenberg).
I know of enough NJ LEOs who would gladly exercise their discretion and not arrest any law-abiding citizen who is violating State Law, if they could get away with it. Unfortunately, this would be a great risk to their livelihood and their ability to keep their families housed, fed and educated.
If you knowingly ignore or break a State's Law, you should also have the intelligence to understand that you can be charged if you are caught. I hate it when people deliberately drive over the posted speed limit but whine like a little bitch when they are caught and ticketed for doing so. As Jim Rockford once said, "If you can't do the time, then don't do the crime!"
Now let's get back to fighting against all these anti-Constitution laws that obama's cronies are trying to pass. And once again, I want to thank everyone who helped get him re-elected for four more years. I don't know about you, but I still think we would have been better off with Romney.
brickboy240
03-04-13, 11:40
Ugh...this is no longer America.
Can we secede now....please?
-brickboy240
SpankMonkey
03-04-13, 11:53
Just going to interject my .02 - do not really care for responses as what I am going to state is common sense and/or fact.
Most NJ PD's have cameras in their vehicles. Most of those cameras are reviewed by those officers supervisors or their internal affairs, or people within the department if not on purpose could be for a random audit of actions - most departments that have cameras in country have these procedures/systems in place. (Especially the NJSP)
If that NJ officer asked the question relating to gun, then found all these guns, mags, hollow points, etc then what exactly was he supposed to do? Being on camera? Maybe he should have just taken off his badge and gun, left it with that person and walked home? Because that is exactly what would have happened if any superior would have watched that video. What officer in this country, especially on this board, would have quit instead of making that arrest?
Sometimes the job of a LEO is very ****ed up. Sometimes there are there are things that we do not want to do and we get ourselves into by sheer luck or an unexpected circumstance. Every bone in that officers body could have told him to not make this arrest or to just let that person go, but that officer is not a lawyer, he not a judge, he is not exactly what people on here whine and complain about at any given moment, especially when an officer makes a mistake publicly. That officer did exactly what he swore an oath to do, uphold the laws of his state. There is a reason why the JUSTICE SYSTEM exists. It is to differentiate between the criminals and the common folk. It is to give leeway to the person who made a mistake and provide rehabilitation or punitive measures to someone who is a habitual offender.
Faulting that officer for his actions and calling a state like NJ a "communist state" does not go hand in hand. The fault is in the legislation allowed by the citizens of NJ, it is in the .gov houses of NJ and in political climate of that state. The officer has/had and will have literally, ZERO control over what laws he/she can enforce and in the manner those crimes are sentenced in court. While officers do have discretionary abilities, for a crime above a motor vehicle violation there should be no discretion (last sentence in my personal opinion).
Now it is clear that this is a bad situation and that a good person made an honest mistake and was arrested because of it in a state not so friendly to something we hold near and dear to our hearts. The only way to change this from happening again is to educate and call for change from the legislators and .gov fatcats in the NJ political hierarchy, not to misdirect anger towards an individual officer.
It's box with a spring in it. Do you really think his life should be destroyed over it?
Bingo. Time to pull the eject handle and gtfo of NJ or where ever..
You know what, it is just useless. Completely and totally useless. Colorado falls today and except for our inept congress the dems are essentially in control nationwide.
PA, VA and FL voted Obama, yet there is still finger pointing and complacency. Blue dog democrats are nearly extinct, take off the blinders.
Absolutely unbelievable that you people can not be motivated unless something is headed for your faces and even then you'll think it's probably going to hit the guy next to you anyway.
Agreed. But this does not change anything in the scheme of things. Each jurisdiction can implement Draconian laws that apply to everyone, including Law Enforcement Officers if they want.
I find it ironic that people complain when LEOs are given exclusions to certain laws but also complain when LEOs have to follow the letter of the law because their ability to exercise any discretion has been effectively mitigated (look up Domestic Violence Laws as introduced by Lautenberg).
I know of enough NJ LEOs who would gladly exercise their discretion and not arrest any law-abiding citizen who is violating State Law, if they could get away with it. Unfortunately, this would be a great risk to their livelihood and their ability to keep their families housed, fed and educated.
If you knowingly ignore or break a State's Law, you should also have the intelligence to understand that you can be charged if you are caught. I hate it when people deliberately drive over the posted speed limit but whine like a little bitch when they are caught and ticketed for doing so. As Jim Rockford once said, "If you can't do the time, then don't do the crime!"
Now let's get back to fighting against all these anti-Constitution laws that obama's cronies are trying to pass. And once again, I want to thank everyone who helped get him re-elected for four more years. I don't know about you, but I still think we would have been better off with Romney.
There is no irony or contradiction...only our growing frustration with:
A) LEOs following the law without question regardless of whether they believe it Constitutional or not. Us hearing time and time again about how an officer was "doing his job" and we have yet to hear about one standing on principle and refusing illegal orders. We're sick of hearing it. Rank and file.
B) LEOs accepting exemptions because they can even though they may even object to the citizen being denied the right yet doing nothing within their organization to fight it.
I can't say what most of you (either LEO or non) would do but I had rather lose my job, draw unemployment, move out of the state, and work at McDonalds in a free state while looking for a better job than do what I'm told just so my family could be fed. There are easier ways of growing a spine than this.
Romney is just another status quo Republicant who would lull us into letting our guard down and allowing for a weaker line of Karl Rove machine backed big government guys to keep gaining power...assuming they actually could defeat a Democrat (or people could tell the difference).
Voodoo_Man
03-04-13, 12:01
It's box with a spring in it. Do you really think his life should be destroyed over it?
It does not matter what you, nor I, believe. What only matters is what that person did and what the consequences will be.
You know what, it is just useless. Completely and totally useless. Colorado falls today and except for our inept congress the dems are essentially in control nationwide.
PA, VA and FL voted Obama, yet there is still finger pointing and complacency. Blue dog democrats are nearly extinct, take off the blinders.
Absolutely unbelievable that you people can not be motivated unless something is headed for your faces and even then you'll think it's probably going to hit the guy next to you anyway.
My post was regarding the quote......that I quoted. Apparently you dont "get it". Stay in commie land for all I care......(because I dont).
I've made my stance perfectly clear in past threads about the current situation..
It does not matter what you, nor I, believe.
So what? This is a discussion forums, where things are discussed.
VooDoo6Actual
03-04-13, 12:11
My post was regarding the quote......that I quoted. Apparently you dont "get it". Stay in commie land for all I care......(because I dont).
I've made my stance perfectly clear in past threads about the current situation..
Exactly.
I put him on my ignore list a long time ago.
Banging the same drum repeatedly & expects different results.
CarlosDJackal
03-04-13, 12:13
Bingo. Time to pull the eject handle and gtfo of NJ or where ever..
Easier said than done. In today's job market, doing so would be a very risky endeavor. For single persons who have no ties to their current home of residence; it's usually no issue. To those with deep family ties, not so much.
It appears that we've re-entered the age where there are "Quislings everywhere". It's a sad commentary on the nation which once fought and deposed them. :(
Exactly.
I put him on my ignore list a long time ago.
Banging the same drum repeatedly & expects different results.
If a drum beats in the forest...and no one is there to hear it...
Easier said than done. In today's job market, doing so would be a very risky endeavor. For single persons who have no ties to their current home of residence; it's usually no issue. To those with deep family ties, not so much.
I can somewhat respect that but there comes a time when someone has to ask themselves if their family can't respect their decisions to do what's best for them then how can they respect themselves? If their family doesn't respect their right to stand on principle then why should they show that family or family members the same respect? People choose to join the military every day and defy the wishes and wants of their families and a great deal of our population constantly defiles and disrespects them and what they stand for on a daily basis.
I dread the day we ever have to fight a serious war or if we were in the last half of the 18th century all over again.
PA PATRIOT
03-04-13, 12:21
Just going to interject my .02 - do not really care for responses as what I am going to state is common sense and/or fact.
Most NJ PD's have cameras in their vehicles. Most of those cameras are reviewed by those officers supervisors or their internal affairs, or people within the department if not on purpose could be for a random audit of actions - most departments that have cameras in country have these procedures/systems in place. (Especially the NJSP)
If that NJ officer asked the question relating to gun, then found all these guns, mags, hollow points, etc then what exactly was he supposed to do? Being on camera? Maybe he should have just taken off his badge and gun, left it with that person and walked home? Because that is exactly what would have happened if any superior would have watched that video. What officer in this country, especially on this board, would have quit instead of making that arrest?
Sometimes the job of a LEO is very ****ed up. Sometimes there are there are things that we do not want to do and we get ourselves into by sheer luck or an unexpected circumstance. Every bone in that officers body could have told him to not make this arrest or to just let that person go, but that officer is not a lawyer, he not a judge, he is not exactly what people on here whine and complain about at any given moment, especially when an officer makes a mistake publicly. That officer did exactly what he swore an oath to do, uphold the laws of his state. There is a reason why the JUSTICE SYSTEM exists. It is to differentiate between the criminals and the common folk. It is to give leeway to the person who made a mistake and provide rehabilitation or punitive measures to someone who is a habitual offender.
Faulting that officer for his actions and calling a state like NJ a "communist state" does not go hand in hand. The fault is in the legislation allowed by the citizens of NJ, it is in the .gov houses of NJ and in political climate of that state. The officer has/had and will have literally, ZERO control over what laws he/she can enforce and in the manner those crimes are sentenced in court. While officers do have discretionary abilities, for a crime above a motor vehicle violation there should be no discretion (last sentence in my personal opinion).
Now it is clear that this is a bad situation and that a good person made an honest mistake and was arrested because of it in a state not so friendly to something we hold near and dear to our hearts. The only way to change this from happening again is to educate and call for change from the legislators and .gov fatcats in the NJ political hierarchy, not to misdirect anger towards an individual officer.
Very well said!
While Everyone here will bash L/E's sometimes its a condition of are employment to act on violations of the law without discretion depending on the violation its self. I have heard of bosses who review dash board tapes and listen in on the conversation between Officer and driver so the Officer is always placed between a rock and a hard place when dealing with such situations.
Exactly.
I put him on my ignore list a long time ago.
Banging the same drum repeatedly & expects different results.
Considering your recent posting pattern I'm far from concerned about being on your ignore list. And is it wasted effort or instead an attempt to preserve and restore hope? But since you'll read my post only after you log out I'll address J-dub for now.
All I'm saying is that you can make fun of and demean this state all you want, but at least do so while making some sort of effort to help. People in CO had no issue pleading for help from out of state and I had no issue offering it. Should I have just advised Magpul and the other to duck and run?
Oh wait...many here did just that. But hell, when a guy like Larry repeatedly calls for unity here and is almost ignored it's really no surprise I'm falling short.
Some of these comments have actually turned me from someone who strongly hoped other states wouldn't suffer our fate into someone who cares less and less with each passing day. Surely not the only one out there either since it seems to be dog eat dog now days in the gun community.
PA PATRIOT
03-04-13, 12:28
If the officer is so scared of losing his job because he used officer discretion, and the laws and departmental policies are such that he has this fear, he IS living in a communist state. If this guy gets jailed because he has a couple of metal boxes in his trunk and the officer is not allowed to exercise good judgement, it IS a communist state.
We do not require Big Brother looking over our shoulders all day, every day. If they are, they have instituted a COMMUNIST STATE! People have been calling it the People's Republic of New Jersey for decades, and for good reason, the people of NJ have no common sense! They were given one of the best systems of government in the modern world, a Constitutional Republic. They have misused this system of government to make criminals of American citizens with zero criminal intent. They have intimidated, coerced, bribed, threatened, ruined and otherwise scared people to the point that they've destroyed their own system of government. Many of us wouldn't set one foot inside the PRNJ on a bet!
New Jersey has earned every bit of the bad reputation they have. If they don't like it, then perhaps they should drag themselves out of their own filth and make a change for the better? :confused:
The People of New Jersey have made NJ exactly what they what it to be by electing those officials that created the conditions which exist today. Anyone wishing to enter NJ has to abide by their laws and enforcement of same and while we may not like it that is the price of admission.
Remember most NJ residents like their state just the way it is and currently a new AWB is in the works so anyone wishing to enter should do so at their own risk.
Magic_Salad0892
03-04-13, 12:33
The People of New Jersey have made NJ exactly what they what it to be by electing those officials that created the conditions which exist today. Anyone wishing to enter NJ has to abide by their laws and enforcement of same and while we may not like it that is the price of admission.
Remember most NJ residents like their state just the way it is and currently a new AWB is in the works so anyone wishing to enter should do so at their own risk.
I agree with that 90%.
But we should still fight to change things there, for the Americans.
You neglected to mention that the people who like NJ have no ****ing clue what's going on nationally, or even in their state.
The People of New Jersey have made NJ exactly what they what it to be by electing those officials that created the conditions which exist today. Anyone wishing to enter NJ has to abide by their laws and enforcement of same and while we may not like it that is the price of admission.
Remember most NJ residents like their state just the way it is and currently a new AWB is in the works so anyone wishing to enter should do so at their own risk.
No problem, but perhaps they should require a US passport to enter such a disparate and dystopian state? :confused:
http://runnersami.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/dystopia1.jpg
Larry,
I have the utmost respect for you but the fact that the laws are stupid does not change the fact that they are there.
I agree the problem is that NJ has stupid laws, and I would love to see them go away, but they are on the books and we have to comply.
I don't have 30rd mags, sure it sucks, but its better than going to jail.
Your friend should not have gone into the state with prohibited items.
It sucks, but that is the deal.
But here's the problem. Have you ever found a mag or a few rounds of ammo in your car that you didn't know was there? It probably fell out from your kit or range bag at some point when you were going to or from the range or training?
All it takes is one Glock 17 magazine that you didn't know was there that had fallen out and got lost in your car and you are a NJ felon if your car gets searched.
The NJ max legal capacity for magazines is currently 15 rounds, and anything higher can get you prosecuted with the zeal of the Nurenberg Trials.
This thread proves you need to know the laws in the area where you are traveling. You cannot count on an officer to use discretion and have to plan accordingly.
I hope Mr. Hackathorn's friend prevails in court. People in New Jersey should take this sort of situation into account during upcoming elections.
Yes MAP is a great guy - but he also left NJ the second he could after retiring as Chief of Police- that's called a clue
It might be worth reaching out to him. Maybe he could write a letter or get in touch with the right person that could help in this situation. NJ is still a place where it really helps to know a few of the right people.
I can ping him if you want later tonight when I get home...
If these anti-gun/anti 2nd amendment states are so worried about making people feel safe and saving lives, maybe they should look into this area also. But then we all know they would rather treat symptoms than the get to the cause.
http://health.yahoo.net/news/s/nm/misdiagnoses-in-doctor-s-office-can-do-harm-study
Voodoo_Man
03-04-13, 13:32
So what? This is a discussion forums, where things are discussed.
I hope you have a better point than that.
Most of us learned in grade school that the only time your opinion is worth anything is when you can back it up.
A lesson which may be lost here.
I hope you have a better point than that.
Most of us learned in grade school that the only time your opinion is worth anything is when you can back it up.
A lesson which may be lost here.
But what have you backed up other than it's nearly impossible to expect common sense within the borders of the PRNJ? :confused:
This circumstance appears to violate the intent of the "Safe passage" section of FOPA.
Doesn't pass the common sense test through any lens. Making criminals out of productive citizens? This didn't stop harm on citizenry, prevent loss, or protect anything. It will cost taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars in court fees, jail time, families ruined, and lost tax revenue from individuals involved.
Regulations are guidelines for intelligent persons. The myriad of possibilities in real life circumstance cannot be captured by rules on paper. The intent certainly can and should be followed.
I'd prefer my tax dollars & state apparatus be focused on actual crimes that hurt people. Use of uniformed power to do otherwise fractures societies.
This circumstance appears to violate the intent of the "Safe passage" section of FOPA.
Doesn't pass the common sense test through any lens. Making criminals out of productive citizens? This didn't stop harm on citizenry, prevent loss, or protect anything. It will cost taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars in court fees, jail time, families ruined, and lost tax revenue from individuals involved.
Regulations are guidelines for intelligent persons. The myriad of possibilities in real life circumstance cannot be captured by rules on paper. The intent certainly can and should be followed.
I'd prefer my tax dollars & state apparatus be focused on actual crimes that hurt people. Uniformed statist drones are worthless, and fracture societies.
Seems NJ has a "zero tolerance" policy in this regard.
I can't even reconcile that a person was arrested, let alone facing jail time, for possession of an item I collected in Jr. High School.
This circumstance appears to violate the intent of the "Safe passage" section of FOPA.
Doesn't pass the common sense test through any lens. Making criminals out of productive citizens? This didn't stop harm on citizenry, prevent loss, or protect anything. It will cost taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars in court fees, jail time, families ruined, and lost tax revenue from individuals involved.
Regulations are guidelines for intelligent persons. The myriad of possibilities in real life circumstance cannot be captured by rules on paper. The intent certainly can and should be followed.
I'd prefer my tax dollars & state apparatus be focused on actual crimes that hurt people. Use of uniformed power to do otherwise fractures societies.
Yep, makes about as much sense as a school's zero tolerance policy of suspending a 6 year old for making a "gun" with his thumb and index finger. :rolleyes:
I believe it is SOP. Oddly, I have never been asked the question in VA. So it may just be SOP in states where guns, mags and ammo types are severely limited by law.
I have been pulled over plenty of times by the NJSP and never have I been asked if I had a weapon in the car.
Maybe the unconstitutional laws of your state should only apply to those who live there and are responsible for them to begin with. If it is a victimless crime, is it in fact a crime?
Who's liberties were infringed upon by this man having a couple of pieces of plastic in his trunk (or wherever it was)?
Nobody has said that the guy didn't make a mistake, however the punishment far outweighs the "crime"... It also seems like a lot of innocent folks are getting caught in the snares of a law intended for the citizens of NJ/NY.
It is sad that we are even having this conversation.
I agree that the punishment is not inline with the crime, frankly it should never have been considered a crime, but it is. Laws of the state apply to those in it, not residing in it. These laws sucks we all agree.
Littlelebowski
03-04-13, 14:02
Exactly.
I put him on my ignore list a long time ago.
Banging the same drum repeatedly & expects different results.
Me three. Greatly improved my M4c experience.
I've met a few in this forum (training with LAV) who are stand-up guys.
Sure there are :) and most likely why they were training :)
Never said all of them I said a % of them will be anti 2nd or limited 2nd folks !
30 cal slut
03-04-13, 14:09
Regulations are guidelines for intelligent persons.
I think gun owners behind enemy lines (NY, NJ, CT, MA, for example) are rightfully coming to the conclusion that many gun regulations are being written by folks ... who don't know anything about guns.
Littlelebowski
03-04-13, 14:10
2 examples of why NJ is on my NFE (not ****ing ever) list in section to the latest example from their Hitler Youth. I'm beginning to see a trend in general with NJ LE though not every officer there, of course.
http://reason.com/archives/2010/11/15/brian-aitkens-mistake
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/01/18/traveling-mans-gun-arrest-appealed-supreme-court/
I know in OK that OK DPS now has the ability to determine if you have a CCW by running your DL. It's the same issuing agency here. That said, if you're not legal to possess whatever you have in a communist state, I doubt there's an additional charge for failure to notify. I know of no law that requires you to admit to a crime or face an additional charge.
Simply put, we have free states and not-so-free states. I will never willingly travel to a not-so free state. There is nothing in these not-so-free states that's worth visiting or buying or selling or whatever to make it worth my while. If I must go there (which will likely be against my will), I would not carry so much as a lockblade knife or pepper spray there. I wouldn't spend a dime I didn't have to while there and I'd leave the second an opportunity presented itself.
The people who responsible for ruining these not-so-free states are the primary reason I hate people in general. They can all DIAF for all I care. :mad:
Thanks, and I completely agree.
I refuse to spend any time or money in a place like that, so this was all mostly hypothetical.
Me three. Greatly improved my M4c experience.
He's at the top of "the list" of people that I would ignore if I actually used the ignore list...a spot previously held by the great Rob S....till his banishment :D
I think you were actually up there among the top at one time in the past as well :lol:
Littlelebowski
03-04-13, 14:19
In the Marine Corps, we called those guys whom were hell bent on enforcing EVERY regulation not matter how badly they ruined the careers of otherwise good Marines; "belt fed at a cyclic rate.". Also, those assholes were invariably great at being good "Garrison Marines" but sucked at being in the field, PT, shooting, etc but they could write a Marine up in a heartbeat!
These guys hurt the Corps more than they helped it by burning Marines with their chickenshit enforcement of nickel and dime regulations and these NJ cops are doing the same. I have a hard time believing that the cop whom pulled over Ken's friend HAD to search his car but I do believe that said LEO probably asked for permission to search the car (going on a fishing expedition) and this poor guy acquiesced, thinking he had nothing to hide or that he HAD to let the LEO search his car.
Anyway, belt fed at a cyclic rate and I see plenty of LE in this thread who have been there and done that, NOT hiding behind "you don't know what it is like out there."
I still wonder when folks live in NJ or NY and claim to be huge 2nd folks why they live in those places ?
Move out if every pro 2nd person did this they would be hurt financially big time ! And every gun company would only sell to what a civilain can have things might change until then folks are just supporting them !
I still wonder when folks live in NJ or NY and claim to be huge 2nd folks why they live in those places ?
Move out if every pro 2nd person did this they would be hurt financially big time ! And every gun company would only sell to what a civilain can have things might change until then folks are just supporting them !
I know this may come as a shock, but not everyone puts the 2nd Amendment 1st as how they live their life. Life is a series of compromises--
Perhaps they:
Have a regional job (Semiconductors-CA, Finance-NY).
Do not wish to uproot children
Cannot sell real-estate in a a depressed market (CA)
Have a spouse who is unwilling to move.
Cannot afford to move.
Support an elderly parent or extended family.
I consider myself fortunate to be where I am, there have been points in my career where it was putting food on the table as the primary concern. I can tell you, at that point, local 2nd amendment policy had ZERO to do with job selection. It is great to have the choice--but realize not everyone is at a point where they have that choice. It is very short sighted and extremely selfish to state that your circumstances and values are the same as everyone's and thus their choices should be the same as yours.
Me three. Greatly improved my M4c experience.
Is the guy who hates GD and constantly calls for it's immediate end still posting often in that same GD? And does anyone realize how silly bragging about having someone on your ignore list comes off to many when everyone knows you read the posts anyway?
I know this may come as a shock, but not everyone puts the 2nd Amendment 1st as how they live their life. Life is a series of compromises--
Perhaps they:
Have a regional job (Semiconductors-CA, Finance-NY).
Do not wish to uproot children
Cannot sell real-estate in a a depressed market (CA)
Have a spouse who is unwilling to move.
Cannot afford to move.
Support an elderly parent or extended family.
I consider myself fortunate to be where I am, there have been points in my career where it was putting food on the table as the primary concern. I can tell you, at that point, local 2nd amendment policy had ZERO to do with job selection. It is great to have the choice--but realize not everyone is at a point where they have that choice. It is very short sighted and extremely selfish to state that your circumstances and values are the same as everyone's and thus their choices should be the same as yours.
While I'm sort of here by default, great post Bob.
I know this may come as a shock, but not everyone puts the 2nd Amendment 1st as how they live their life. Life is a series of compromises--
Perhaps they:
Have a regional job (Semiconductors-CA, Finance-NY).
Do not wish to uproot children
Cannot sell real-estate in a a depressed market (CA)
Have a spouse who is unwilling to move.
Cannot afford to move.
Support an elderly parent or extended family.
I consider myself fortunate to be where I am, there have been points in my career where it was putting food on the table as the primary concern. I can tell you, at that point, local 2nd amendment policy had ZERO to do with job selection. It is great to have the choice--but realize not everyone is at a point where they have that choice. It is very short sighted and extremely selfish to state that your circumstances and values are the same as everyone's and thus their choices should be the same as yours.
No shock ?
I said huge 2nd types ! The type that talk about enough is enough types
I am from Hawaii ! Talk about gun control ! But loved it
Never stated my circumstances and values ? And not selfish to ask that of some folks why when they seem to be so pro 2nd and some claim they will go to war and talk like that but not move :) hope that makes more sense
Your position is like most folks I assume
Lots of folks bitch but do nothing about it was more my point
Always an excuse not to do something but that can be overcome by making a plan and acting on it in a timely manner
Its easy to fall into comfort
Forgot the saying about working through your life and not living through your life
I still wonder when folks live in NJ or NY and claim to be huge 2nd folks why they live in those places ?
Move out if every pro 2nd person did this they would be hurt financially big time ! And every gun company would only sell to what a civilain can have things might change until then folks are just supporting them !
Because more often then not went the time comes to "put up, or shut up" people just start bitching.
If you prefer to live on your knees, stay in these commie states. But dont keep crying about it. If you want something different, move.
Young boy suspended for shaping a Pop-Tart into a gun (http://www.ktnv.com/news/watercooler/194673111.html).
We are a minority and need to fight for our rights like every other minority has in the history of our country.
Young boy suspended for shaping a Pop-Tart into a gun (http://www.ktnv.com/news/watercooler/194673111.html).
We are a minority and need to fight for our rights like every other minority has in the history of our country.
This is the kinda stuff that just makes me shake my head and think we might be screwed if the power does not change
And that idea of well other comforts living here trump those ! We will be screwed for sure.
Voodoo_Man
03-04-13, 15:45
@glocktogo, easy to point at others when your opinions have no weight.
Those who know understand what I posted. I do not need to justify anything.
Young boy suspended for shaping a Pop-Tart into a gun (http://www.ktnv.com/news/watercooler/194673111.html).
We are a minority and need to fight for our rights like every other minority has in the history of our country.
The more I hear about instances like this, the more I believe that their agenda is to turn us into outcasts like they did smokers (and I've never smoked a cig in my life). Indoctrinate at a young age and make it so socially unacceptable that nobody wants to do it anymore.
Fortunately, I think the clock will strike midnight before this happens on a widespread enough scale.
I thought it was legal to pass through a state with firearms/ammo/parts not legal in said state, as long as you don't stay overnight?
This is such bullshit...
@ironman8, you've hit it on the head. Indoctrination is the center, the very core of the left's entire agenda. My kids (and thanks to my unending efforts, many of their friends) have been saved from this fate of propaganda-induced brain-death. Many teachers have actively tried to ostracize my oldest son for being an outspoken conservative, an issue about which he and I made no small stink, of course. He and his friends have caught teachers doing it, on tape/cell phone, and brought it to the school board and administration with my backing. The way to defeat these (dare I call them?) people is grass-roots, local movements. Exercise all the influence you can in local, county and state politics. You have far more power (generally) when working on the small scale.
FChen17213
03-04-13, 16:02
It's sad, but gun owners and people with traditional American values are truly a minority in this country now. We shouldn't patronize places like New York City, San Francisco, Chicago etc etc. I still remember when I did like to occasionally visit said places. I mean they are different, and they offer many exotic things that are unique. At some point, most of us wanted to go to a Yankees game or visit the Sears Tower. Who doesn't want to go to the San Diego Zoo or look at the Golden Gate Bridge? What kind of heterosexual guy wouldn't want to attend the Victoria's Secret Fashion Show or go to the Playboy Mansion in LA?
Not anymore. After how bad these elitist people and urbanites in NYC and CA want to pick on the rest of America and screw us over, I don't think it's worth it to give them another dime of our hard-earned money. Obviously there are good people in those states, but what the overwhelming majority of their governments have said is pretty much, "We don't care about the rest of America. We are the center of the United States, and you all just revolve around us." Michael Bloomberg clearly believes that his way and the New York way somehow encompasses the rest the the country and comepletely ignores anyone else's opinions. From now on, our money should go to places like TX, GA, AL, AZ, SC, etc.
Also, I wish someone would compile a list of places to not shop at and a list of places to buy from. Examples would be to never go to Buffalo Wild Wings because they are anti-gun and ban CCW. Order Papa Johns Pizza when you can, and don't shop at CVS Pharmacy or fly Jet Blue since George Soros owns large shares of those. Support those who support you.
Just going to interject my .02 - do not really care for responses as what I am going to state is common sense and/or fact.
Most NJ PD's have cameras in their vehicles. Most of those cameras are reviewed by those officers supervisors or their internal affairs, or people within the department if not on purpose could be for a random audit of actions - most departments that have cameras in country have these procedures/systems in place. (Especially the NJSP)
If that NJ officer asked the question relating to gun, then found all these guns, mags, hollow points, etc then what exactly was he supposed to do? Being on camera? Maybe he should have just taken off his badge and gun, left it with that person and walked home? Because that is exactly what would have happened if any superior would have watched that video. What officer in this country, especially on this board, would have quit instead of making that arrest?
Sometimes the job of a LEO is very ****ed up. Sometimes there are there are things that we do not want to do and we get ourselves into by sheer luck or an unexpected circumstance. Every bone in that officers body could have told him to not make this arrest or to just let that person go, but that officer is not a lawyer, he not a judge, he is not exactly what people on here whine and complain about at any given moment, especially when an officer makes a mistake publicly. That officer did exactly what he swore an oath to do, uphold the laws of his state. There is a reason why the JUSTICE SYSTEM exists. It is to differentiate between the criminals and the common folk. It is to give leeway to the person who made a mistake and provide rehabilitation or punitive measures to someone who is a habitual offender.
Faulting that officer for his actions and calling a state like NJ a "communist state" does not go hand in hand. The fault is in the legislation allowed by the citizens of NJ, it is in the .gov houses of NJ and in political climate of that state. The officer has/had and will have literally, ZERO control over what laws he/she can enforce and in the manner those crimes are sentenced in court. While officers do have discretionary abilities, for a crime above a motor vehicle violation there should be no discretion (last sentence in my personal opinion).
Now it is clear that this is a bad situation and that a good person made an honest mistake and was arrested because of it in a state not so friendly to something we hold near and dear to our hearts. The only way to change this from happening again is to educate and call for change from the legislators and .gov fatcats in the NJ political hierarchy, not to misdirect anger towards an individual officer.
Very well said!
While Everyone here will bash L/E's sometimes its a condition of are employment to act on violations of the law without discretion depending on the violation its self. I have heard of bosses who review dash board tapes and listen in on the conversation between Officer and driver so the Officer is always placed between a rock and a hard place when dealing with such situations.
You run this guy and he comes back clean; no wants, no warrants, no previous criminal or 5150 history. Says he made a mistake and that he's a gun dealer that travels to different gun shows to make a living. And yet you don't think you should exercise your discretion or some common sense in this situation? You don't think this situation calls for some investigation and maybe a conversation with a supervisor? You don't think you should take thirty minutes to find out whether he's telling truth or not? Why not call the company that's putting on the gun show that he's going to or coming back from to find out whether he's legitimate? You don't think this is information that's pertinent to your case? And why not call your Sgt and have a discussion with him about this?
My point is that there are world of options out there before arresting him and taking him to jail and yet neither of you seem to acknowledge they exist or even see that they do. And rock and a hard place is what you signed up for. No one ever said it would be easy.
I'm very pro law enforcement but when officers come out and say arrest is the only option and the circumstances of the situation don't or shouldn't matter, it concerns me.
@glocktogo, easy to point at others when your opinions have no weight.
Those who know understand what I posted. I do not need to justify anything.
Ahh...Inside joke then? :confused:
Voodoo_Man
03-04-13, 17:19
You run this guy and he comes back clean; no wants, no warrants, no previous criminal or 5150 history. Says he made a mistake and that he's a gun dealer that travels to different gun shows to make a living. And yet you don't think you should exercise your discretion or some common sense in this situation? You don't think this situation calls for some investigation and maybe a conversation with a supervisor? You don't think you should take thirty minutes to find out whether he's telling truth or not? Why not call the company that's putting on the gun show that he's going to or coming back from to find out whether he's legitimate? You don't think this is information that's pertinent to your case? And why not call your Sgt and have a discussion with him about this?
My point is that there are world of options out there before arresting him and taking him to jail and yet neither of you seem to acknowledge they exist or even see that they do. And rock and a hard place is what you signed up for. No one ever said it would be easy.
I'm very pro law enforcement but when officers come out and say arrest is the only option and the circumstances of the situation don't or shouldn't matter, it concerns me.
What he does for a living and if he is telling the truth do not matter, at the level of arrest/contact. He has the items in his possession, this is fact. Calling a supervisor will either end in the supervisor asking why you called him or telling you lock him up.
Any officer with a bit of time on knows how this type of situation goes down. You can make any statement against it. I have yet to see a single LEO post that they would rather quit than to do make the arrest. When that happens we can continue this convo, but I wouldnt hold my breath.
What he does for a living and if he is telling the truth do not matter, at the level of arrest/contact. He has the items in his possession, this is fact. Calling a supervisor will either end in the supervisor asking why you called him or telling you lock him up.
Any officer with a bit of time on knows how this type of situation goes down. You can make any statement against it. I have yet to see a single LEO post that they would rather quit than to do make the arrest. When that happens we can continue this convo, but I wouldnt hold my breath.
rather ironic, considering your sig line, isn't it. :(
Voodoo_Man
03-04-13, 17:43
rather ironic, considering your sig line, isn't it. :(
Say whatever you want. Does not change the fact that this person was arrested, lawfully.
And please, keep things on topic.
What he does for a living and if he is telling the truth do not matter, at the level of arrest/contact. He has the items in his possession, this is fact. Calling a supervisor will either end in the supervisor asking why you called him or telling you lock him up.
Any officer with a bit of time on knows how this type of situation goes down. You can make any statement against it. I have yet to see a single LEO post that they would rather quit than to do make the arrest. When that happens we can continue this convo, but I wouldnt hold my breath.
Where is the line then? Where does it stop being "LEO's following orders and enforcing laws" and becomes "This is not a constitutional law and I refure to enforce it on the citizens I swore an oath to serve..."?
I am seriously wondering this because I am of the opinion most laws/restrictions/regulations on guns are completely and utterly unconstitutional. Including the following:
-Permits for CCW- "The right to bear arms shall not be infringed..." How does "permitting" someone to carry concealed fall outside of infringing on ones right to bear arms?
-Not allowing any sort of carry of any weapon on Government property- How does this not infringe on our right to bear arms? I would posit that the founders meant for us to be able to bear arms anywhere (You knwo the whole shall not be infringed verbiage of 2A and all...) and protected ones right to bear arms- regardless of the venue one is bearing them...
I could go on and on but there really isn't any need to.
So where is your personal line? If new laws were enacteed in your neck-o-the-woods tomorrow- what infringement exactly would cause you to draw the line?
At some point we have to aknowledge the infringement of our rights as the reality that it is- UNCONSTITUTIONAL, UNAMERICAN and UNACCEPTABLE!
So tell me where is the line?
Say whatever you want. Does not change the fact that this person was arrested, lawfully.
And please, keep things on topic.
I disagree; the Constituion is the highest law of the land- do oaths mean nothing?
"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."
If these types of laws aren't infringing on the citizens of these states' rigths to bear arms; what the hell would be considered infringement?
Confiscation isn't the only way to infringe on ones right to bear arms...
Voodoo_Man
03-04-13, 18:11
This is the last time I will reply on this specific topic because I do not want to continue beating an already dead horse.
The line is not drawn by the LEOs. The line is drawn by the legislation that citizens like you and me put into office. If you do not like it, vote against it and if it still passes move somewhere elsenif itnmeans that much. The citizens in that state allowed these laws based on their votes. This is fact. The person was arrested because he made an error, also fact. Neither one has anything to do with the police officer involved. Think about it rationally and logically.
It makes me laugh, especially on this board, because the members here would be the first to jump on the hqte bandwagon if an officer did not arrest someone when should have and it was made publi, but yet the posts in this thread have been directly hypocritical on this matter. Interesting.
Magic_Salad0892
03-04-13, 18:15
It makes me laugh, especially on this board, because the members here would be the first to jump on the hate bandwagon if an officer did not arrest someone when should have and it was made public, but yet the posts in this thread have been directly hypocritical on this matter. Interesting.
It's a bit different when it's somebody actively trying to ban 30rnd magazines then takes some to a place where they're illegal.
Voodoo_Man
03-04-13, 18:18
It's a bit different when it's somebody actively trying to ban 30rnd magazines then takes some to a place where they're illegal.
Ignorance of the law is no defense.
It makes me laugh, especially on this board, because the members here would be the first to jump on the hqte bandwagon if an officer did not arrest someone when should have and it was made publi, but yet the posts in this thread have been directly hypocritical on this matter. Interesting.
Please provide examples of how this board has done this. Otherwise saying others opinions have no weight seems to be a little hypocritical yourself.
Voodoo_Man
03-04-13, 18:47
Please provide examples of how this board has done this. Otherwise saying others opinions have no weight seems to be a little hypocritical yourself.
Thanks for that, made me snicker really, search jbt or jack booted thug on here.
Anyway, unless someone wants to converse about the topic and not make negative statements attacking me im going to move on.
Rmplstlskn
03-04-13, 18:51
Wow, I am going to go over my truck with a fine tooth comb before I visit DC for some sightseeing. But I swear this, I am RV camping in VA and will will spend the absolute minimum amount of money humanly possible in DC and wait till I leave back to VA... I do this for any State occupied by the insurgency....
But this long thread shows me once again why nothing new is under the sun, that those who chose to resist King George with arms were a MINORITY even among those willing to resist King George peacefully... Until events happened that tipped the scales...
Never in my life of 47 years have I seen our freedoms so close to the edge of the abyss... I think back to my years in Florida and Virginia and I see we are truly FROGS in boiling water at this point... Nothing is sane, rational, or weighed in a scale of right and wrong, no grey, rather we are in a "zero tolerance" pot of water. From this story about the guy traveling through NJ to how our schools are programming our kids to FREAK OUT and FEAR anything that even resembles a gun, let alone an actual picture or drawing of one... Our Doctors are now intimidated into being interrogators about guns...
It is everywhere, on all fronts... And the majority of people want it and support it...
I fear bad times are coming to this land... I hope people like us here are ready and planning for such times. I hope more "elite trained" people like LAV stand up like he is doing, bucking the trend even within our own gun community (i.e. Magpul), and to kick into HIGH GEAR training classes in as many States as possible... I hope other "elite trained" come out of the "civvy" world and also offer training to those local to them... That networking begins among like minded... For I fear our petitions to King George (local, State and Federal politicians & lawmakers) are falling on ears that seek the heat of the water even hotter...
Rmpl
Magic_Salad0892
03-04-13, 18:54
Ignorance of the law is no defense.
I'm not talking about that. You said we were defending this guy, but wanting to have the law enforced on another guy who was breaking the same law.
I'm saying the reason that members here want to **** the other guy over is because he broke a law that he was actively lobbying for at the time.
Voodoo_Man
03-04-13, 18:58
I'm not talking about that. You said we were defending this guy, but wanting to have the law enforced on another guy who was breaking the same law.
I'm saying the reason that members here want to **** the other guy over is because he broke a law that he was actively lobbying for at the time.
I never made that statement.
I also never said anyone is defending anyone.
I merely stated facts.
Im done with this thread and im unsubscribing, ive made my statement and have no desire to reply to offtopic or negative posts.
Thanks for that, made me snicker really, search jbt or jack booted thug on here.
Anyway, unless someone wants to converse about the topic and not make negative statements attacking me im going to move on.
OK...to my amusement I did what you suggested and I only came up with a few more examples of members being agitated that a LEO had taken their power too far and made what they thought was an unwarranted arrest. Nobody AFAIK has complained about LEOs not making arrests as you claimed. If you want to keep claiming the members here do this then be my guest.
because the members here would be the first to jump on the hqte bandwagon if an officer did not arrest someone
Larry,
I hope your friend survives and also gets his pre-64 back!! This will be interesting to watch & hope you keep us posted on how nj handles this.
~~~~~~~
Your story this reminds me of:
My Dad had a pistol stolen from his vehicle decades ago and he got it back 8 years after it was stolen because I had the s/n when the report was given. I was called to come pick up the gun and when I went into the holding room, there were dozens of collectables I started drooling over. I asked the le in charge what happens to all the guns not reported and he said "look behind you". There was a poster board of pics full of piles of iron and wood next to a chop saw. I told him it would be criminal to chop up (pointed out about a dozen pieces of history) and said they viewed all fireearms under the same w/current law. I told him I bet they did not destroy and disguard gold and diamonds...I got nowhere.
~~~~~~~~~~
Larry, I can tell you that living along the border, you will certainly learn to clean your car before heading south of the Rio!! I hope this story of your friend helps others be aware & to take measures so we don't see other threads like this.
PA PATRIOT
03-04-13, 19:12
Where is the line then? Where does it stop being "LEO's following orders and enforcing laws" and becomes "This is not a constitutional law and I refure to enforce it on the citizens I swore an oath to serve..."?
I am seriously wondering this because I am of the opinion most laws/restrictions/regulations on guns are completely and utterly unconstitutional.
There is a lot of folks here that continually state that Police should not enforce unconstitutional law and we don't. What is currently on the books in NJ is constitutional until reversed by the Courts which does not appear to have any issues with the current AWB. Look we had a nation wide AWB for ten years which was more then enough time to be challenge and over turned but did this happen? NO it expired.
So for those who deem certain laws as Unconstitutional once you get the courts to agree then you have grounds to complain, until then its the constitution law of the land and just your opinion.
Rmplstlskn
03-04-13, 19:25
So for those who deem certain laws as Unconstitutional once you get the courts to agree then you have grounds to complain, until then its the constitution law of the land and just your opinion.
God-given, inalienable is the basis of "Constitutional." It trumps courts in the end. That is "self evident" to those with wisdom...
Rmpl
What he does for a living and if he is telling the truth do not matter, at the level of arrest/contact. He has the items in his possession, this is fact. Calling a supervisor will either end in the supervisor asking why you called him or telling you lock him up.
Any officer with a bit of time on knows how this type of situation goes down. You can make any statement against it. I have yet to see a single LEO post that they would rather quit than to do make the arrest. When that happens we can continue this convo, but I wouldnt hold my breath.
Not continuing the conversation is something we finally agree on. I comprehend your POV. You think there's a distinct right and a distinct wrong with nothing in between. Never mind the fact that the gentleman in question has no prior criminal record, never mind that his story is true, never mind the fact that he didn't intend to break the law or that no one was hurt or ever in danger, and never mind the fact that he's been a law abiding citizen for sixty years. None of that matters because he broke the law, period.
Me, I think there are some considerations in there. So I guess we'll just disagree.
LOL. I wonder if I'm not too far behind him. ;)
Seriously, this area is becoming a foreign country.
Don't come to Colorado. I think the NJ followed me.
Mike
PS I'm in the CO Senate Judiciary hearing as I type this.
We have our answer guys and I believe that's the way it will go down.. We are SOL as far as the authorities are concerned. That's just the way it is.. Now run out there and buy a few tickets to the ball.. Ron
Magic_Salad0892
03-04-13, 19:34
Don't come to Colorado. I think the NJ followed me.
Mike
PS I'm in the CO Senate Judiciary hearing as I type this.
It just said they passed that bullshit in the other thread.
What he does for a living and if he is telling the truth do not matter, at the level of arrest/contact. He has the items in his possession, this is fact. Calling a supervisor will either end in the supervisor asking why you called him or telling you lock him up.
Any officer with a bit of time on knows how this type of situation goes down. You can make any statement against it. I have yet to see a single LEO post that they would rather quit than to do make the arrest. When that happens we can continue this convo, but I wouldnt hold my breath.
Isn't this exactly what's being pointed out.. Just saying..
Alaskapopo
03-04-13, 19:49
I have been talking to my good friend Ken Hackathorn a lot lately about all this AWB and magazine ban stuff ; we are in total agreement about LEO's in ban states not having an exemption for standard capacity magazines, etc.
Yesterday he shared a very sad tale about a buddy of his that lives in NC and does the gun show circuit - buying and selling and picking up inventory from different gunshops, etc.
This guy was driving thru New Jersey to linkup with a buyer of a Winchester pre 64 Model 70 bolt gun- unfortunately for him he had a headlight out; because of this he was pulled over
The officer asked him if he had any firearms in the car - he said yes a bolt action hunting rifle - the officer wanted to see it; upon inspection the officer noticed a few M1 Carbine 30 rd mags ( empty ) - of course then the shit hit the fan and the resulting search of the vehicle the police found hollow point handgun projectiles - bullets only not loaded ammo; all this and more was part of some stuff he had gotten at a gunshop for selling at an upcoming gunshow
Well you can guess the rest; the car and everything was seized - including the cash he had on him- he got his car back finally but his NJ state lawyer told him he is facing 3 years in prison ; he said he is going to get convicted, no way to get him 'off ', but he is going to try his best to keep him from doing any jail time
Now maybe all the LEO's that frequent this forum might have a clue why us 'citizens' might be a bit hardheaded when it comes to LEO exemptions of any kind - it is because that slippery slope leads to places like New Jersey or worse Great Britian where SAS combat veterans face prison for having a handgun in their kit after returning from a combat deployment
I'll say it again - we are in the fight of our lives - we have to give it our all because the country we grew up in may not exist in the future; we are on the edge of the abyss
Two things. The cops did not pass the laws and your friend should have known them when he decided to travel to New Jersey. It sucks I feel for him but this whole situation could have been avoided by knowing the laws. Basically blaming the cops for your friends plight is just going to make this an us vs them. If I go to Mexico with ammunition or a gun on me I can expect to go to a Mexican prison. Laws do suck in Mexico and that is a reason I don't go there very often. I would not have made that arrest but then again I would never work in New Jersey. Shold the laws be struck down in Mexico sure but that is not up to us that is up to the people living there. Same thing with Jersey. I wonder if all these companies boycotting sales to ban state LEO's would refuse a contract order from a country like Mexico or Great Britain. I am betting not.
I would have your friend contact the NRA they may want to use his case as a test case and they may be willing to pay the legal fees. It sounds like a good case to play in the media as he should have lots of sympathy and outrage from most gun owners.
Pat
Two things. The cops did not pass the laws and your friend should have known them when he decided to travel to New Jersey. It sucks I feel for him but this whole situation could have been avoided by knowing the laws. Basically blaming the cops for your friends plight is just going to make this an us vs them. If I go to Mexico with ammunition or a gun on me I can expect to go to a Mexican prison. Laws do suck in Mexico and that is a reason I don't go there very often. I would not have made that arrest but then again I would never work in New Jersey. Shold the laws be struck down in Mexico sure but that is not up to us that is up to the people living there. Same thing with Jersey. I wonder if all these companies boycotting sales to ban state LEO's would refuse a contract order from a country like Mexico or Great Britain. I am betting not.
I would have your friend contact the NRA they may want to use his case as a test case and they may be willing to pay the legal fees. It sounds like a good case to play in the media as he should have lots of sympathy and outrage from most gun owners.
Pat
FOPA makes knowing state laws nice, but not required if just passing through the state.
Rmplstlskn
03-04-13, 20:04
If I go to Mexico with ammunition or a gun on me I can expect to go to a Mexican prison.
Apples and oranges... Topic is USA specific.
If VA passes a law that says anyone BLACK or HISPANIC cannot enter the State, fully supported by the majority of the people, would it be RIGHT?
Why not?
UnConstitutional, you might say...
How?
MAJORITY opinion of Constitution applies to ALL men & women, right?
The MAJORITY of States opinion of the 2nd Amendment would have that man doing NOTHING illegal... New Jersey rejects that opinion... Many are OK with that, law of the State, legislators, blah, blah, blah...
So why cannot VA outlaw blacks and hispanics?
Rmpl
Two things. The cops did not pass the laws and your friend should have known them when he decided to travel to New Jersey. It sucks I feel for him but this whole situation could have been avoided by knowing the laws. Basically blaming the cops for your friends plight is just going to make this an us vs them. If I go to Mexico with ammunition or a gun on me I can expect to go to a Mexican prison. Laws do suck in Mexico and that is a reason I don't go there very often. I would not have made that arrest but then again I would never work in New Jersey. Shold the laws be struck down in Mexico sure but that is not up to us that is up to the people living there. Same thing with Jersey. I wonder if all these companies boycotting sales to ban state LEO's would refuse a contract order from a country like Mexico or Great Britain. I am betting not.
Pat
You're comparing New Jersey, part of the United States, that is covered under the Constitution, the Bill of Rights and specifically the 2nd Amendment to a foreign country that has no such similar rights. Here's a little bit about Mexico's gun rights.
The right to keep and bear arms was first recognized as a constitutional right under Article 10 of the Mexican Constitution of 1857.[7] However, as part of the Mexican Constitution of 1917, Article 10 was changed[8] where-by the right to keep and bear arms was given two separate definitions: the right to keep (derecho a poseer in Spanish) and the right to bear (derecho a portar in Spanish).[9] The new version of Article 10 specified that citizens were entitled to keep arms (own them) but may only bear them (carry them) among the population in accordance to police regulation.[10] This modification to Article 10 also introduced the so-called ...[arms] for exclusive use of the [military]... (in Spanish: ...de uso exclusivo del Ejército...), dictating that the law would stipulate which weapons were reserved for the armed forces, including law enforcement agencies, for being considered weapons of war.
In 1971, Article 10 of the present Constitution was reformed[11] to limit the right to keep arms within the home only (in Spanish: ...derecho a poseer armas en su domicilio...) and reserved the right to bear arms outside the home only to those explicitly authorized by law (i.e. police, military, armed security officers). The following year, the Federal Law of Firearms and Explosives came into force[12] and gave the federal government complete jurisdiction and control to the legal proliferation of firearms in the country; at the same time, heavily limiting and restricting the legal access to firearms by civilians.
As a result of the changes to Article 10 of the Mexican Constitution and the enactment of the Federal Law of Firearms and Explosives, openly carrying a firearm or carrying a concealed weapon in public is virtually forbidden to private citizens, unless explicitly authorized by the Secretariat of National Defense (SEDENA). For purposes of personal protection, firearms are only permitted within the place of residence and of the type and caliber permitted by law.
Ignorance of the law, he should've known the law, etc... If we didn't have tens of thousands of laws on the books this might be possible for the average citizen. As it stands right now you have plenty of cops who don't even know the laws in their own jurisdictions concerning everything from open carrying of firearms to people recording officer's actions so how is the laymen supposed to know?
Alaskapopo
03-04-13, 20:10
Apples and oranges... Topic is USA specific.
If VA passes a law that says anyone BLACK or HISPANIC cannot enter the State, fully supported by the majority of the people, would it be RIGHT?
Why not?
UnConstitutional, you might say...
How?
MAJORITY opinion of Constitution applies to ALL men & women, right?
The MAJORITY of States opinion of the 2nd Amendment would have that man doing NOTHING illegal... New Jersey rejects that opinion... Many are OK with that, law of the State, legislators, blah, blah, blah...
So why cannot VA outlaw blacks and hispanics?
Rmpl
The 14th amendment addresses the issue you brought up with tyranny of the majority.
All of the amendments under the bill of rights are limited in some degree. The are exceptions to the 4th amendment like exigent circumstances, exceptions to the first amendment such as fighting words or yellling fire in a theature. The court has said reasonable restrictions can be applied to the second amendment as well. People don't agree on what is reasonable. People in Jersey are a lot more anti gun than people in Alaska but its their state and they make the rules and outsiders need to know those rules and follow them even if they are stupid laws. I hope the person involved in this is able to beat the case.
Pat
Two things. The cops did not pass the laws and your friend should have known them when he decided to travel to New Jersey. It sucks I feel for him but this whole situation could have been avoided by knowing the laws. Basically blaming the cops for your friends plight is just going to make this an us vs them. If I go to Mexico with ammunition or a gun on me I can expect to go to a Mexican prison. Laws do suck in Mexico and that is a reason I don't go there very often. I would not have made that arrest but then again I would never work in New Jersey. Shold the laws be struck down in Mexico sure but that is not up to us that is up to the people living there. Same thing with Jersey. I wonder if all these companies boycotting sales to ban state LEO's would refuse a contract order from a country like Mexico or Great Britain. I am betting not.
I would have your friend contact the NRA they may want to use his case as a test case and they may be willing to pay the legal fees. It sounds like a good case to play in the media as he should have lots of sympathy and outrage from most gun owners.
Pat
Does every one of us know all the laws? Our statutes are so complex everyone is guilty of SOMETHING. Where was the evil or immoral intent of the arrested individual? Doesn't a crime have to have a motive? Where was the motive here? I found in Michigan even the POLICE couldn't make sense of gun laws--They asked why I didn't load my magazines ahead of time at a PPC match--at the time (and perhaps still now)--a loaded magazine was considered illegal carry without CCW (MI was may-issue). Not to mention the fact that it was illegal to have a pistol unloaded in your car without proof of membership in a gun-club.
Truth is we all sit and make excuses--just following orders! Would of cost me my job! Cops just enforce the laws! I could Godwin this thread right here if it weren't so obvious.
While we sit here and bicker they are picking us off one at a time.
Think on the wise words often attributed to Edmund Burke:
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
FOPA makes knowing state laws nice, but not required if just passing through the state.
Problem is, unless the state statute book, or whatever legal resource the officer has at his disposal, has FOPA provisions written into the gun laws, then the officer can't rely on it at the time of arrest, and FOPA will only then become a factor when the DA, judges, and lawyers get involved. "Beat the rap but not the ride" kind of thing.
It's not right, and its fixable, but cops aren't legal scholars. At some point, they have to refer to a document that says, here's the law and here are the exceptions.
The whole thing about discretion is that it's discretion. It's a courtesy, not a right. I'd have given it to him, being a gun guy, knowing FOPA, and assuming the guys not being a jerk(I'm sure he wasn't). But he didn't get stopped by me.
Don't expect to debate constitutionality curbside; everyone does.
I feel for this guy, but I wouldn't put it on the officer. It's not a "following orders" thing. It's more of a "don't know what you don't know" thing.
Littlelebowski
03-04-13, 20:26
My resolve not to submit to fishing expeditions/vehicle searches is further hardened.
Alaskapopo
03-04-13, 20:32
Does every one of us know all the laws? Our statutes are so complex everyone is guilty of SOMETHING. Where was the evil or immoral intent of the arrested individual? Doesn't a crime have to have a motive? Where was the motive here? I found in Michigan even the POLICE couldn't make sense of gun laws--They asked why I didn't load my magazines ahead of time at a PPC match--at the time (and perhaps still now)--a loaded magazine was considered illegal carry without CCW (MI was may-issue). Not to mention the fact that it was illegal to have a pistol unloaded in your car without proof of membership in a gun-club.
Truth is we all sit and make excuses--just following orders! Would of cost me my job! Cops just enforce the laws! I could Godwin this thread right here if it weren't so obvious.
While we sit here and bicker they are picking us off one at a time.
Think on the wise words often attributed to Edmund Burke:
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
Your right laws can be complex but as gun owners we know or at least should know the potential dangers when traveling to a new place. I make it a point to research the laws when I go on vacation. The Law Enforcement Safety act covers me but there are still some questions such as New Jerseys hollow point ban so if I go there I will bring ball.
Pat
Your right laws can be complex but as gun owners we know or at least should know the potential dangers when traveling to a new place. I make it a point to research the laws when I go on vacation. The Law Enforcement Safety act covers me but there are still some questions such as New Jerseys hollow point ban so if I go there I will bring ball.
Pat
Shit, I'm in NJ on vacation right now. Hopefully I'll get out before the snow hits. When we planned this trip, I intended to carry under HR218. But I didn't, since I would have had to navigate NJ, NYS, NYC, and TSA laws and policies. Decided against it.
Just like the main case here. I shouldn't be that way and the fixes are easy, but I didn't roll the dice and carry anyways, and I checked my bags for shit before I packed them(dodged a bullet :D on a previous trip).
Larry Vickers
03-04-13, 21:31
Okay let me restate that this individual is Ken's friend not mine - I met and talked to him once; many years ago
If this guy was your father or uncle my guess is many of you naysayers would be a bit more sympathetic
And another thing; what's up with all you cops hiding behind a screen name ? I don't get that - if your gonna say something be man enough to own it- I do; each and every post
If you cant use your real name because of your job then that's a clue you probably shouldn't be on an Internet forum
Your right laws can be complex but as gun owners we know or at least should know the potential dangers when traveling to a new place. I make it a point to research the laws when I go on vacation. The Law Enforcement Safety act covers me but there are still some questions such as New Jerseys hollow point ban so if I go there I will bring ball.
Pat
Under the 2010 revision to HR 218 you can carry any ammo you want provided it is not prohibited by Federal Law.
Mike
The Law Enforcement Safety act covers me but there are still some questions such as New Jerseys hollow point ban so if I go there I will bring ball.
Pat
Once again...hollow points are not banned in this state. Their legal use is however seemingly always open to interpretation.
Even if you research NJs ****ed up laws you can still find yourself in deep FOPA not withstanding. Have they fixed the situation where if you have a flight layover even if it's unannounced or unscheduled and you have a checked firearm they can and will trap you in a nice little catch 22? As I understand it, if your flight's delayed until the next day the TSA is forbidden from transferring your checked baggage to the next days flight so you have to take possession and since you couldn't have possibly had time to get a firearm owner certificate you get popped. Unless I'm misunderstanding something.
Hopefully an experienced firearms lawyer will review everything an then read FOPA with a magnifying glass to see if this guy has a chance.
D. Christopher
03-04-13, 22:26
Sqwerl I would NEVER take possession of luggage containing my firearm in NJ, or several other states that will crucify you if you do. If you get diverted because of weather or mechanical issues or some other problems you have to be very careful about where you end up and whether you can take possession of your bag or not. I don't care if they are pointing a gun at me, they can't make me take possession of my own bag in a city or state where I never intended to be, or only intend to pass through while my weapon was legally under control of an airline.
This happens many times a year to citizens for a variety of reasons but none of them deserve what it does to their lives. Driving across state lines is tough enough and flying is even more complicated if there are diversions or unexpected layovers. You have to study very hard to plan your trip and contingencies and know in which states you will NEVER take possession of your firearm for any reason. New Jersey is one of those states. I don't go there and when I'm in the area I give them a wide berth. Mr. Vickers example is just one of many American citizens that will have their lives ruined by the state of New Jersey this year.
PA PATRIOT
03-04-13, 22:39
Okay let me restate that this individual is Ken's friend not mine - I met and talked to him once; many years ago
If this guy was your father or uncle my guess is many of you naysayers would be a bit more sympathetic
And another thing; what's up with all you cops hiding behind a screen name ? I don't get that - if your gonna say something be man enough to own it- I do; each and every post
If you cant use your real name because of your job then that's a clue you probably shouldn't be on an Internet forum
Larry why all this hostility?
Everyone on the internet uses screen names and I would suggest it makes no difference if Police, fire, military or any other professional uses them for what ever reason they wish. Larry you promote a Business with name recognition so by choice you post your actual name but I have taken reports were people used their real names on the net and then was later harassed by someone they had a disagreement with on the net.
I also understand it maybe irritating that you didn't receive unconditional support for your Friends, friend but if you post of a incident which involves any number mitigating factors don't be surprised if others have a difference of opinion and post same. Honestly I took your post as being critical toward a L/E/O and I responded to question the motive of that post. Larry Its nothing personal with you but one has to expect response once the anti police dog pile begins.
FOPA makes knowing state laws nice, but not required if just passing through the state.
The problem is that some states don't recognize the FOPA to the point where you may wind up at the very least getting arrested, having a huge, expensive legal battle, and risking prison and as a result of a criminal conviction, forfiting your right to own firearms in the future.
New Jersey is obviously an example of this.
New York State and city will do this with handguns since the state has harsh restrictions and requires a license to own them.
I know that MA requires a permit to own any type of firearm, but I am not sure how they are in regards to out of state people travelling through the state.
Larry Vickers
03-04-13, 22:52
The number one problem with the Internet is people are willing to say things on here that they would never say to someone's face- I have always used my real name on the Internet from day one; I don't really fathom the concept of hiding behind a screen name to make comments
Maybe I'm just the one screwed up- I would think that you would want people to know where you stand and your willing to put your name to it
Not that anyone really said anything that far out of line to me on this thread - I never took any comments that way- I just feel ( obviously ) that you should be man enough to use your real name when posting comments
Yes I am promoting a business; I also run the risk of driving away customers based on someone not liking what I say- that is a risk I am willing to run as we are in a dire situation in this country in regards to our 2A rights and that situation trumps any money that might be made; by me or anyone else in my opinion
Thanks for that, made me snicker really, search jbt or jack booted thug on here.
Anyway, unless someone wants to converse about the topic and not make negative statements attacking me im going to move on.
Perhaps you should. You haven't contributed anything of value on the subject in several pages. :D
There is a lot of folks here that continually state that Police should not enforce unconstitutional law and we don't. What is currently on the books in NJ is constitutional until reversed by the Courts which does not appear to have any issues with the current AWB. Look we had a nation wide AWB for ten years which was more then enough time to be challenge and over turned but did this happen? NO it expired.
So for those who deem certain laws as Unconstitutional once you get the courts to agree then you have grounds to complain, until then its the constitution law of the land and just your opinion.
Prior to Heller, SCOTUS last ruled on a true 2A infringement in 1934 (Lewis v. U.S in 1980 pertained to felons with guns). That's a 73 year drought where SCOTUS REFUSED to hear 2A cases where they would have had to rule in favor of the People. Hell, in Burton v. Sills in 1968, the NJ Supreme Court intentionally misrepresented the U.S. definition of militia in order to fix a case against gun owners!
If you're counting on the courts as evidence of constitutionality, you're begging for a Godwin comparison!
The 14th amendment addresses the issue you brought up with tyranny of the majority.
All of the amendments under the bill of rights are limited in some degree. The are exceptions to the 4th amendment like exigent circumstances, exceptions to the first amendment such as fighting words or yelling fire in a theater. The court has said reasonable restrictions can be applied to the second amendment as well. People don't agree on what is reasonable. People in Jersey are a lot more anti gun than people in Alaska but its their state and they make the rules and outsiders need to know those rules and follow them even if they are stupid laws. I hope the person involved in this is able to beat the case.
Pat
Perhaps you missed my previous post:
The People of New Jersey have made NJ exactly what they what it to be by electing those officials that created the conditions which exist today. Anyone wishing to enter NJ has to abide by their laws and enforcement of same and while we may not like it that is the price of admission.
Remember most NJ residents like their state just the way it is and currently a new AWB is in the works so anyone wishing to enter should do so at their own risk.
No problem, but perhaps they should require a US passport to enter such a disparate and dystopian state? :confused:
http://runnersami.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/dystopia1.jpg
NJ may be 10 kinds of ****ed up, but it's still a state within the union until we kick it out! :mad:
As I understand it, if your flight's delayed until the next day the TSA is forbidden from transferring your checked baggage to the next days flight so you have to take possession and since you couldn't have possibly had time to get a firearm owner certificate you get popped. Unless I'm misunderstanding something.
NEVER accept your bag, it's really that simple. If they're going to dump it in the public area for you to pick up, simply stand watch until an airline baggage agent comes to get it. They're required to either store the bag until it gets expedited on your next leg, or have it delivered in some fashion to your final destination. That is a legal agreement between a contracted carrier and the traveler. NO ONE can force you to take possession of it before then. I'd rather lose the bag than get arrested behind enemy lines like some kind of WWII spy! :mad:
The number one problem with the Internet is people are willing to say things on here that they would never say to someone's face- I have always used my real name on the Internet from day one; I don't really fathom the concept of hiding behind a screen name to make comments
Maybe I'm just the one screwed up- I would think that you would want people to know where you stand and your willing to put your name to it
Not that anyone really said anything that far out of line to me on this thread - I never took any comments that way- I just feel ( obviously ) that you should be man enough to use your real name when posting comments
Yes I am promoting a business; I also run the risk of driving away customers based on someone not liking what I say- that is a risk I am willing to run as we are in a dire situation in this country in regards to our 2A rights and that situation trumps any money that might be made; by me or anyone else in my opinion
I don't know about others here, but I'll own up to whatever I write, but via PM. I like my name out in the open as little as possible. Nothing to do with ARs, politics, or police, just identity theft and such.
Yes, I also shred anything with PII on it coming out of my house into pieces of paper so small that they can be used as confetti.
Larry why all this hostility?
Everyone on the internet uses screen names and I would suggest it makes no difference if Police, fire, military or any other professional uses them for what ever reason they wish. Larry you promote a Business with name recognition so by choice you post your actual name but I have taken reports were people used their real names on the net and then was later harassed by someone they had a disagreement with on the net.
I also understand it maybe irritating that you didn't receive unconditional support for your Friends, friend but if you post of a incident which involves any number mitigating factors don't be surprised if others have a difference of opinion and post same. Honestly I took your post as being critical toward a L/E/O and I responded to question the motive of that post. Larry Its nothing personal with you but one has to expect response once the anti police dog pile begins.
It's pretty simple really. We just can't figure out how some of you who are supposed to be big, strong, brave enforcers of the law can be so thin skinned? I've heard less whining from 5 year olds on the playground! Even SHIVAN said it!
[QUOTE=SHIVAN;1569233]On the flip side, I swear to God if I see one more person tell me that a cop is just doing his job, I am going to punch a kitten in the face, twice. Stop that too....
I'll try to explain it from my perspective. In my state, we are not "law enforcement officers", we're "Peace Officers". That means a lot to me. What the officer in NJ did (and MANY before him have done) was not upholding the peace. They specifically breached the peaceable travel of this gentleman and it was WRONG. I don't give a rat's ass if it was legal or not, it was WRONG! When a previous poster quoted Edmund Burke, it was exceedingly appropriate. What was missing on the side of the road in NJ was a good man. There may have been a cop or enforcement officer present, but the good man was MIA.
You can hide behind the law all day long, but you'll never be right. If you're OK with that, then so be it. Most of us on here stand for something more than that is all. I find it sad that any of us don't. :(
Cincinnatus
03-04-13, 23:15
It's pretty simple really. We just can't figure out how some of you who are supposed to be big, strong, brave enforcers of the law can be so thin skinned? I've heard less whining from 5 year olds on the playground! Even SHIVAN said it!
[QUOTE]
I'll try to explain it from my perspective. In my state, we are not "law enforcement officers", we're "Peace Officers". That means a lot to me. What the officer in NJ did (and MANY before him have done) was not upholding the peace. They specifically breached the peaceable travel of this gentleman and it was WRONG. I don't give a rat's ass if it was legal or not, it was WRONG! When a previous poster quoted Edmund Burke, it was exceedingly appropriate. What was missing on the side of the road in NJ was a good man. There may have been a cop or enforcement officer present, but the good man was MIA.
You can hide behind the law all day long, but you'll never be right. If you're OK with that, then so be it. Most of us on here stand for something more than that is all. I find it sad that any of us don't. :(
This is an OUTSTANDING post!
MountainRaven
03-05-13, 00:30
There is a lot of folks here that continually state that Police should not enforce unconstitutional law and we don't. What is currently on the books in NJ is constitutional until reversed by the Courts which does not appear to have any issues with the current AWB. Look we had a nation wide AWB for ten years which was more then enough time to be challenge and over turned but did this happen? NO it expired.
So for those who deem certain laws as Unconstitutional once you get the courts to agree then you have grounds to complain, until then its the constitution law of the land and just your opinion.
Constitutional as determined by the Courts that...
Chose their own powers by fiat;
Decided that slaves are not human beings;
Allowed separate but equal;
Stated that states have a right to regulate what you do in your own bedroom with other consenting adults;
Said it's OK for the state to seize your property to build a Wal-Mart, and;
Has held that money is speech, making the wealthy more equal than the less wealthy and enabling Bloomberg to flood CO (and other states) with millions of dollars to push gun control?
To quote Ms. Darby Shaw, "The Supreme Court was wrong."
The number one problem with the Internet is people are willing to say things on here that they would never say to someone's face- I have always used my real name on the Internet from day one; I don't really fathom the concept of hiding behind a screen name to make comments
Maybe I'm just the one screwed up- I would think that you would want people to know where you stand and your willing to put your name to it
Not that anyone really said anything that far out of line to me on this thread - I never took any comments that way- I just feel ( obviously ) that you should be man enough to use your real name when posting comments
Yes I am promoting a business; I also run the risk of driving away customers based on someone not liking what I say- that is a risk I am willing to run as we are in a dire situation in this country in regards to our 2A rights and that situation trumps any money that might be made; by me or anyone else in my opinion
Larry, I'll start by saying that I hope your friend's charges are dismissed. Most members would agree that incarcerating productive members of society in this manner is counterproductive. I'll go a few steps further and say that I disagree with NJ's laws and hope they are changed for the better so that I can someday set foot in that state and enjoy the aroma.
Sadly, I suspect that the most productive aspect of this conversation is the warning that your friend's circumstance conveys. That is we should all be very careful about where we travel in the US, particularly if we bring a gun. Is what happened to you friend fair or just? No, but injustice is a very common occurrence, and there is no need to exacerbate this reality by being misinformed. Thus, all members should be put on notice that armed travel to a hostile state can be a costly mistake. Unfair, but very costly...
Alaskapopo
03-05-13, 00:56
I don't know about others here, but I'll own up to whatever I write, but via PM. I like my name out in the open as little as possible. Nothing to do with ARs, politics, or police, just identity theft and such.
Yes, I also shred anything with PII on it coming out of my house into pieces of paper so small that they can be used as confetti.
Also officer safety. People can figure out where you live and get your phone numbers etc. There are crazy people out there. Its not good for anyone to post their personal info on the web much less cops. I know some may not understand but there are people out there who would like to do us harm.
Pat
Even if you research NJs ****ed up laws you can still find yourself in deep FOPA not withstanding. Have they fixed the situation where if you have a flight layover even if it's unannounced or unscheduled and you have a checked firearm they can and will trap you in a nice little catch 22? As I understand it, if your flight's delayed until the next day the TSA is forbidden from transferring your checked baggage to the next days flight so you have to take possession and since you couldn't have possibly had time to get a firearm owner certificate you get popped. Unless I'm misunderstanding something.
That's why I'm not emotionally attached to my carry pistol and am willing to sacrifice them if need be. Ten years ago on a flight back from Atlanta I had to go through Newark. I was legally carrying in Georgia. My flight got cancelled for weather. I knew the rules (and despise them), so I didn't go get my bag from checked baggage. Since I didn't pick it up they delivered it to the hotel the airline provided. I didn't take possession of the bag and the hotel sent it back to the airlines. Miraculously the bag made it back to my flight the next day. At every point I was willing to sacrifice my shit to stay out of NJ trouble.
No American should have to go through this bullshit.
I am really at a loss for words.. When did something become right and just, just because it is law? Why did this turn into a you vs. me, us vs. them thread? I think we can all agree the officer could have handled it much better and the laws in NJ and various other states are a crock of shit as well as Mr. Vickers friends friend should have played it safe. I think they have been chopping away at our rights for so long in such small increments the majority just no longer can decipher the true intentions of what these politicians want. We have been spoon fed this garbage while being told it was good for us. While some of us were smart enough to read the nutrition facts, most were and are not. We need to get on the same page here and focus our attention to the real threats, none of which are each other.
While no laws and forms of justice are perfect, the constitution got it pretty damn close. I know we can all agree with it.
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