View Full Version : Technical Tip of The Day
I thought it would be interesting to post some observations from things I have seen over the years, and specifically in regards to things I have seen over the last few months teaching my AR15 Armorer Course.
Problem- Bolt Carrier Group wouldn't move freely inside the upper receiver. The person in question had a 20" upper assembled by someone "knowledgeable" in AR's. turns out the gas tube was tweaked and the carrier key was hitting the gas tube. Because this person was inexperienced he just kept forcing the carrier into the upper.
Solution- Using a flat tip screwdriver we placed it into the upper between the receiver wall and the tube and then did a slight tweaking. The tube straightened and the carrier moved freely afterwards.
If you are going to build or have someone build you an AR make sure that you understand the parts and tools required to complete the task. If someone else is building it make every effort to determine what their competency and skill level is beforehand and thoroughly check the weapon. If necessary have them walk you through what they did or provide a spec sheet of the details.
patrick sweeney
03-07-13, 15:59
And if you are working on someone elses rifle, don't let them see you pick up the big screwdriver and start prying.
I've adjusted gas tubes that way, and some people were not at all happy about it. I guess I should have used the old "Hey look, there's Elvis" routine, and tweaked it while their back was turned.
Oh well.
mkmckinley
03-07-13, 16:00
Great idea for a thread. In your experience, if one takes care to ensure the gas block is perfectly centered, how often will a gas tube need tweeking to allow the BCG to run freely? Do you consider bending the gas tube kind of a last resort when someone has already pinned the GB or dimpled the barrel or is it more routine? Are the gas tubes themselves ever out of whack?
patrick sweeney
03-07-13, 16:05
The gas tube is a bendy bit of stainless steel. Just the effort of wrestling it into the front sight upright, and threading it back through the upper receiver can put a tweak in it.
For me, checking the fit of the gas tube, and the carrier key over it is a normal part of installing a gas tube, and I pretty much tweak every one. Some a little, some a lot, but all get checked.
It's been my experience that if you align the block and the barrel nut properly, it is almost always going to be straight. What usually happens is the the barrel nut is the main culprit because it isn't centered with the gas tube hole in the upper. With a low pro build it should be a no-brainer. I install the barrel nut first and tighten it. Then I install the tube into the gas block and slide it into place to check for any issues and will then tighten the set screw just enough to hold it so I can look into the upper and see if it's straight.
Great idea for a thread. In your experience, if one takes care to ensure the gas block is perfectly centered, how often will a gas tube need tweeking to allow the BCG to run freely? Do you consider bending the gas tube kind of a last resort when someone has already pinned the GB or dimpled the barrel or is it more routine? Are the gas tubes themselves ever out of whack?
I had the same problem with my carbine, gas tube was misaligned just enough to rotate the BCG slightly and cause the bolt lugs to hit the barrel extension. In my case, it was because the notch in the barrel nut was not aligned correctly. The fix was to remove the gas tube, loosen & re-torque the barrel nut to properly align the notch and re-install the gas tube.
This thread is a great idea, IG. Thanks
Hi Iraqgunz- An excellent idea and your first tip is an excellent one. I recently finished my build and spent quite a few minutes being sure to line up my gas tube.
How do you suggest checking alignment? I removed my bolt from the carrier, put my finger in the back of the carrier and moved the bolt back and forth in the upper to be sure I didn't feel any off-center resistance. Is there any other means of doing so? I also check for uneven wear on the gas tube once I have fired the rifle for a while and as you've noted I "tweak" it a bit if needed.
Thanks.
steyrman13
03-07-13, 18:18
Hi Iraqgunz- An excellent idea and your first tip is an excellent one. I recently finished my build and spent quite a few minutes being sure to line up my gas tube.
How do you suggest checking alignment? I removed my bolt from the carrier, put my finger in the back of the carrier and moved the bolt back and forth in the upper to be sure I didn't feel any off-center resistance. Is there any other means of doing so? I also check for uneven wear on the gas tube once I have fired the rifle for a while and as you've noted I "tweak" it a bit if needed.
Thanks.
That is one of the best ways that I have tried bc it makes sure that the tube and key are aligned with each other(in theory should be dead center of the channel, but not always...by very small margin of course)
If you tighten or loosen the barrel but while the tube is installed you can watch how very little movement of the nut causes the tube to cock to one side or the other...it really exaggerates the small amount of movement applied to the nut
Thanks for the tip IG. Small things like this are one reason i will not buy an upper or lower that was built in a garage. Unless it was yours, grants, or one of the highly respected experts that are a part of this forum.
For me it would be scary to see one of my local smiths tweek my gas tube with a screwdriver. If it was you i would not even second guess your method.
If someone was building an upper and the barrel nut was torqued to 30-35lbs but the tooth for the barrel nut divided the gas tube tunnel perfectly, how would you go forward in the build? I always have extra barrel nuts that I try if this happens but what if a spare nut isn't available?
I removed my bolt from the carrier, put my finger in the back of the carrier and moved the bolt back and forth in the upper to be sure I didn't feel any off-center resistance.
Thanks.
This is the method i use as well. I have also taken a sharpie and colored the inside edge of the gas key to see if the gas tube was rubbing slightly. Although the sharpie method may not hold true, I still do it.
If someone was building an upper and the barrel nut was torqued to 30-35lbs but the tooth for the barrel nut divided the gas tube tunnel perfectly, how would you go forward in the build? I always have extra barrel nuts that I try if this happens but what if a spare nut isn't available?
Loosen the barrel nut and repeat the process. I usually snug the bbl nut, loosen and repeat a minimum of 5. This allows the threads to "seat". Then after tightening to 30-35 ft lbs, if the gas tube hole is still blocked by a bbl nut tooth, I tighten the nut to next available groove.
If I'm wrong in my process, someone please correct me.
Brownells has two tools that are very helpful in this regard.
The first and one that I use on every barrel install is the barrel nut alignment gauge (080-216-014 $4.73). By slipping the gauge into the upper at the gas tube port you can tell instantly if your nut is aligned with the gas tube entry hole in the upper. Saves a lot of time.
The second is the upper receiver lapping tool (080-000-182 $26.95). If you are going for a specific torque number, you can change the barrel nut alignment by lapping the receiver face. It will also true the face for a more solid interface if the upper is not completely true.
I am usually not overly concerned about hitting a number unless building a precision rifle. Generally I aim for a torque range of 40-60 ft. lbs. on most builds and have had excellent results.
I use the same technique. Generally I don't worry about alignment after the fact if everything is smooth after assembly. I will do a check later, but that's just as insurance.
Hi Iraqgunz- An excellent idea and your first tip is an excellent one. I recently finished my build and spent quite a few minutes being sure to line up my gas tube.
How do you suggest checking alignment? I removed my bolt from the carrier, put my finger in the back of the carrier and moved the bolt back and forth in the upper to be sure I didn't feel any off-center resistance. Is there any other means of doing so? I also check for uneven wear on the gas tube once I have fired the rifle for a while and as you've noted I "tweak" it a bit if needed.
Thanks.
Since the range is so large (30-80 ft./lbs.) I just got to the next tooth and call it a day. I would say that 90% of the time it's a non-issue.
If someone was building an upper and the barrel nut was torqued to 30-35lbs but the tooth for the barrel nut divided the gas tube tunnel perfectly, how would you go forward in the build? I always have extra barrel nuts that I try if this happens but what if a spare nut isn't available?
I thought the high torque value was around 40ft/lb. Thanks for clearing it up! I'll keep the spare barrel nuts just in case.
Since the range is so large (30-80 ft./lbs.) I just got to the next tooth and call it a day. I would say that 90% of the time it's a non-issue.
Adco sells a great barrel nut alignment tool. Rather long and fits snug that'll let you know if your gas tube is going to bind or not. Hell, they make several tools specifically for AR building that are great and priced pretty decent.
Having an extra barrel nut is not a bad idea. Over the years I have had one or two barrel nuts that came close to the 80 ft-lb torque limit in order for the gas tube to pass through without binding. I would prefer the torque was in the 35-45 ft-lb range.
Brownells has the alignment tool and everything else you need to build and repair AR-15s. That's where I picked up all of my tools.
Keep the tips coming Iraq Guns!
Ok the gas tube is made of stainless steel the barrel and barrel nut is steel and the upper is aluminum. Now when these different metals heat up and expand at different rates would that not cause the gas tube tube to be tweak even more when the rifle gets hot if the gas tube was not install correctly?
patrick sweeney
03-08-13, 09:55
if you align the block and the barrel nut properly, it is almost always going to be straight.
That hasn't been my experience. Consider how many variables determine the location in space of the open end of the gas tube;
Axial alignment of front sight rings to front sight gas tube tunnel.
Perpendicularity of the gas tube pin hole, and the gas tube locaiton hole for that pin
Bends made in the gas tube by the manufacturer to meet specs
Bends inadvertently added by warehouse, packer, other gear in shipment, storage on shelf and schlepping to your AO.
Inadvertent bending induced by assembly, as you wrestle it into place.
Alignment of barrel nut clearance cut.
Location of clearance hole drilled in upper receiver
Maybe I've worked on too many frankenguns, but I go into it assuming Ill have to at the very least check alignment, and probably adjust it to make it a perfect fit.
But a good tip, and one worth having in your bag of tricks.
That hasn't been my experience. Consider how many variables determine the location in space of the open end of the gas tube;
Axial alignment of front sight rings to front sight gas tube tunnel.
Perpendicularity of the gas tube pin hole, and the gas tube locaiton hole for that pin
Bends made in the gas tube by the manufacturer to meet specs
Bends inadvertently added by warehouse, packer, other gear in shipment, storage on shelf and schlepping to your AO.
Inadvertent bending induced by assembly, as you wrestle it into place.
Alignment of barrel nut clearance cut.
Location of clearance hole drilled in upper receiver
Maybe I've worked on too many frankenguns, but I go into it assuming Ill have to at the very least check alignment, and probably adjust it to make it a perfect fit.
But a good tip, and one worth having in your bag of tricks.
Sounds more like you've had to work with a bunch of shoddy out-of-spec parts.
patrick sweeney
03-08-13, 10:22
A lot of my learning curve was done in the 1980s, when there was Colt and everything else. It made me, and keeps me, suspicious of everything out there, Colt included.
With dozens making the main components, and hundreds making the smaller ones, the permutations run in the thousands.
I assume everyone is doing their best, but I still check every detail.
And if you are working on someone elses rifle, don't let them see you pick up the big screwdriver and start prying.
I've adjusted gas tubes that way, and some people were not at all happy about it. I guess I should have used the old "Hey look, there's Elvis" routine, and tweaked it while their back was turned.
Oh well.
My grandfather adjusted my first car's door with a 2x4 by slamming the door on it with it in the hinge area. I was unfortunate enough to have seen it. It hurt my tender 17 year-old brain.
Fast-forward to age 25, and although my grandpa did not like GM, I wish like anything that he had still been alive so that I could call him and tell him that I watched the folks up at Bowling Green, KY adjust the panels on my Z06 on the assembly line...with wooden wedges and regular hammers. It would have made his day!
Even in the world of CAD and CNC and laser cutting/etching...sometimes a hammer and/or a wedge really are what is called for.
One of the guys in a recent class had purchased some type of gun show POS pistol grip. Not only was it a POS, but the grip screw was wrong. It was about 1/2 inch longer than the standard one and had the incorrect threads.
Problem- Stripped out grip screw hole and damaged threads. Additionally the selector lever detent spring was damaged in the process.
Solution- I had him purchase a Magpul MOE grip with the correct screw and we were able to thread it in the hole without issues. Replaced selector lever detent spring.
If you are swapping grips or (doing any task you aren't familiar with) ensure you understand what tools are needed and know what you are doing. Do not use any questionable parts. Try and check things like parts in advance before you start the task.
I thought it would be interesting to post some observations from things I have seen over the years, and specifically in regards to things I have seen over the last few months teaching my AR15 Armorer Course.
This is an excellent idea Iraqgunz. Thank you for taking the time to do this.
Joe Mamma
Problem: safety selector very stiff, but not when grip is off.
Solution A: extend the hole in the grip with a small drill to allow the normal spring compression thus lessening the tension on the pointed detent.
Solution B: clip a few coils from the spring and try to find a comfortable tension.
problem 2: If the opposite is true, try placing a small filler into the grip hole to increase tension to the suitable amount.
Problem: safety selector very stiff, but not when grip is off.
Solution A: extend the hole in the grip with a small drill to allow the normal spring compression thus lessening the tension on the pointed detent.
Solution B: clip a few coils from the spring and try to find a comfortable tension.
problem 2: If the opposite is true, try placing a small filler into the grip hole to increase tension to the suitable amount.
I've put several carbines together with PSA LPKs. I always have to clip 3 coils off of their safety detent spring, I don't know why they use longer springs.
Using a flat tip screwdriver we placed it into the upper between the receiver wall and the tube and then did a slight tweaking. The tube straightened and the carrier moved freely afterwards.When you do this, are you turning the screwdriver blade to cock the tube away from where it's contacting? Or are you pressing the flat of the screwdriver against the tube away from where it's contacting?
I don't know if this tip will help with an AR15, but a car detailer showed me a trick to make your own lock washers to retain screws that come loose too easily. Cut a small strip from a plastic sandwich bag. Bend it into a U across the threaded end of the screw, and screw it in. The plastic gets into the threads and acts like a nylon lock washer.
I've used this trick successfully with my car, door handles, and my 1911 grip screws. I suppose you could use it on an AR hand grip or some sight systems. However, I wouldn't use it anywhere where heat might melt the plastic.
I don't know if this tip will help with an AR15, but a car detailer showed me a trick to make your own lock washers to retain screws that come loose too easily. Cut a small strip from a plastic sandwich bag. Bend it into a U across the threaded end of the screw, and screw it in. The plastic gets into the threads and acts like a nylon lock washer.
I've used this trick successfully with my car, door handles, and my 1911 grip screws. I suppose you could use it on an AR hand grip or some sight systems. However, I wouldn't use it anywhere where heat might melt the plastic.
This could be a useful tip for a lot of things when there is not a proper fix.
juliomorris
03-10-13, 14:56
This could be a useful tip for a lot of things when there is not a proper fix.
I have used rubber O rings for this purpose a couple times but not good when heat is involved.
Grand58742
03-10-13, 18:01
Not necessarily a technical tip, but a lessons learned from a friend of a friend.
Long story short. Guy calls me up asking if I have a stock wrench. I do. Says the receiver extension is out of alignment and the buffer detent and spring are not staying in the hole. Figure a loose extension, five minute fix, no problem. However, describing the problem, more to it. Have him bring it over. Missing receiver plate entirely so the extension won't stay put. Buffer detent is bent so far out of shape it's sitting at about a 30 degree angle and is traveling under the BCG when the rifle goes back into battery. Spring is warped to the point of uselessness. And how was the rear takedown detent and spring kept inside you might ask since the receiver plate was missing? Carpenters glue...
Receiver extension was an aftermarket commercial type that was way out of spec as it was. Stock had to be removed with a screwdriver and wrenched off. Replaced entire receiver extension and stock with a spare (along with a receiver plate), replaced buffer detent and spring, torqued, staked, called that problem fixed. Couldn't do much with the rear takedown detent and spring except maybe drilling it out so left it be since it appeared to work as advertised. Also found his carbine was firing on release as well since the FCG pins were out of spec and not keeping it aligned in the lower (never realized how hard an AR was to get apart when the hammer is forward). Flash hider freely spun and was removed with two fingers. Gas block was not tight and have no idea if the port was aligned correctly. Didn't want to go messing with that too much so I left it be and moved on...
Very sick carbine. Fixed what I could and told the guy to get it into a competent gunsmith to get the gas system checked over and new FCG pins installed since I only had one set of spares. The guy had it built for him while he was deployed and "it only cost me $650." Claims little to no knowledge on ARs so at least admitting was the first step.
Moral to the story? If you don't know dick all about ARs and have someone "build" one for you, best to have someone who does know look it over before forking over any money.
And if you are working on someone elses rifle, don't let them see you pick up the big screwdriver and start prying.
I've adjusted gas tubes that way, and some people were not at all happy about it. I guess I should have used the old "Hey look, there's Elvis" routine, and tweaked it while their back was turned.
Oh well.
Aint that the truth. People would always wonder why when they would bring their duty rifle in for some repair we would take it into the "back room" to fix and wouldn't let them in. It is because sometimes a little force is necessary and people tend to get tweaky about that sort of thing.
There's that.... and the guy who just wants to rush though the work instead of letting you get it done right.
patrick sweeney
03-15-13, 14:14
When I was a gunsmith, the phrase I hated the most was;
"But all you've got to do is....."
The_Hammer_Man
03-15-13, 15:24
When I was a gunsmith, the phrase I hated the most was;
"But all you've got to do is....."
when I hear that sentence start I usually do one of two things... cringe, cuz I KNOW what I'll hear next will be bone stupid, or I ask them, usually in an exasperated tone of voice,
"If you know how to fix it why is it in my shop?"
Lots of "Umm.. Ahhh..".
My contribution:
How to field expedient fix on an out of spec (too large ID) gas block on the fly.
Long story short, was at a shoot and a guys gb came loose. On examination the gb (no name after market) ID was about .020 too large.
For various reasons I keep a roll of aluminum muffler tape in my tool box. (It's useful for doing fast road side fixes on leaky mufflers)
Whipped out my side cutter and nobbled off a strip, slid that between the bottom of the gb and the barrel and retightened the screws. (after adding locktite)
He shot the rest of the competition with my "frakenfix" in place. He later sent me the upper to do a proper fix.
Customers can make a repair job more difficult to say the least.
When I worked on other people's rifles I had a sign posted in my garage.
Labor Rate - $40 per hour
Customer Watches - $45 per hour
Customer Helps - $60 per hour
I have a few;
When building your lower cover around the mag catch area and around the bolt stop area with "Blue painter" tape. keeps the reciever from getting scratched.
When I use my Mig welder to Pin and weld a Comp or when a barrel gets shipped to me and there are some marks on the green parkerize of the barrel. 44/40 cold blue works perfect. Makes small scratches completely disappear.
Break down and buy yourself a detent install tool. launching the detent pin when you install the front one is a pain in the butt. The tools are cheap and saves you a bunch of time looking around the floor of the detent pin.
When installing a muzzle device, make sure you use a thin tappet wrench (left) or you'll get the wrench stuck and leave a scar as I did.
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Build/DSC_0120.jpg
The wrench flat is thin and a thicker wrench will get caught by the crush washer as it expands. It could prevent proper torque from being reached
When using a upper receiver vise make sure it is supported properly and tight inside the bench vise.
If it's not tight it'll torque in the receiver vise and the edge of the forward assist housing will scrape the side of the bench vise. Done it twice in the last 4-5 years. Both with Vltor MURs. Makes a beautiful little divot at the very tip of the housing.
Another reason to spend more money with Geissele.
-Jax
Great thread Gunz!
Instead of busting newbs chops, keep posting good gouge.
A spare QRP2 mount works great as a supplemental vise block.
A spare QRP2 mount works great as a supplemental vise block.
I like that one! I've got one sitting on my bench and had no idea what to do with it other than chuck it into the parts box.
I have seen a few issues as of late in regards to the fitting of the lower receiver extension into the lower receiver. There are a variety of factors that come into play.
1. Lower Receiver Extension- Not all receiver extensions are the same. I have noticed that the commercial tubes are by far not as well made as the MILSPEC ones. The fitting issues come into play when it comes to aligning the tube and keep it straight.
2. Endplates- Not all endplates are the same and some are so crappy that they easily deform or "splinter" when staking them. I have had good luck with Colt, BCM, LMT and Vltor.
3.Lube (Grease or Anti-Seize). Use some grease or anti-seize on the threads and work them ahead of installation. This will also help you in regards to detecting any irregularities. Also work the castle nut at this time.
4. Alignment and Tightening- Once you know that everything will go together correctly and you have the tube in place, tighten the castle nut by hand and check the alignment. Most good tubes and plates will allow for slight rotation when torquing the castle nut. To help counter this, place your stock on the tube and hold it snugly. I find it best to snug the castle nut at this time with a tool like the Hammerhead.
Once it is tight, you can place the torque wrench or breaker bar on the on the tool and continue to tighten the castle nut.
A few things that will greatly assist are the Hammerheadrifletool, a good receiver extension from Colt, BCM, LMT or Vltor and good good endplates from the same.
Once it is tight, you can place the torque wrench or breaker bar on the on the tool and continue to tighten the castle nut.
Is there a torque range that you shoot for? I've honestly never heard of using a torque wrench for these...only tighten as much as you can with the tool (in hand) and then stake...which I still need to do...
Is there a torque range that you shoot for? I've honestly never heard of using a torque wrench for these...only tighten as much as you can with the tool (in hand) and then stake...which I still need to do...
40 inch lbs. You will need an inch pound torque wrench...
40 inch lbs. You will need an inch pound torque wrench...
40 INCH lbs??
I could do that with my pinky :p
40 inch lbs. You will need an inch pound torque wrench...
That was a mis-print and has been corrected as far as I know. It should be 40 ft/lb.
Isn't that the same torque spec as most barrels?
Isn't that the same torque spec as most barrels?
Yes, it's within that range.
I just don't know why it would be necessary to put a torque wrench on it to get a specific torque number when you will be staking it :confused:
Unless you're torquing it with your purse, you should be able to get it tight enough that when combined with staking will be all you would ever need.
But I'm still waiting for Gunz's answer here...
You really don't need a torque wrench.
Yes, it's within that range.
I just don't know why it would be necessary to put a torque wrench on it to get a specific torque number when you will be staking it :confused:
Unless you're torquing it with your purse, you should be able to get it tight enough that when combined with staking will be all you would ever need.
But I'm still waiting for Gunz's answer here...
In reality you don't need a torque wrench. Apply some anti-seize and get the nut snug, then apply a little more umph. It'll be fine. Just make sure that you stake it good.
From this thread: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=48596
Isn't that the same torque spec as most barrels?
40-80 ft/lb for barrel nuts. The range is to allow for aligning the teeth with the gas tube.
The TM calls out 35-39 ft/lb for an A2 buffer tube. Ken Elmore has posted on TOS that he uses 35 for A2's, and 40 for castle nuts. He's also the one that pointed out the mis-print. Per Ken, "All torque values in the TM are in ft/lb except the gas key screws."
I'm not sure if the grip screw has a torque value in the TM, but it should probably be more in the in/lb range as well.
The manual specifies a torque value just like they do for the barrel nut and carrier key screws. They do this in the event that you have a retard behind the wrench and mitigate human error.
It seems as of late people want to pick apart and dissect every statement that is made instead of just listening to the message that is being put out.
The manual specifies a torque value just like they do for the barrel nut and carrier key screws. They do this in the event that you have a retard behind the wrench and mitigate human error.
And from the recent convoy of Short Yellow Buses that's been flowing here lately.... I can see why. :rolleyes:
It seems as of late people want to pick apart and dissect every statement that is made instead of just listening to the message that is being put out.
In case you forgot where this thread is located (as the OP I doubt it), take a gander at the top of the screen where it says "AR TECHNICAL Discussion"....hell even the thread title says "Technical" in it. Ergo, if it is out of line to ask specific "technical" questions that tend to "dissect", then maybe this thread needs a new name and a new home. :rolleyes:
I think the thing to bear in mind here is this is supposed to be more of a professional forum. The general consensus here is that you probably shouldn't "build" your first AR. This isn't like ARFCOM's "build it yourself" forum where you have guys trying to assemble their first lower receiver in their lap using vise grips and duct tape. So, with that in mind, it's safe to assume that non-amateurs have a general idea about how tight a castle nut should be. Tighten it and stake it. Don't obsess over what exact spec to torque it to.
Then again, for engineer-minded people like myself, I enjoy the specs. It makes me feel good to know them, share them, and apply them. At the end of the day, though, a torque spec on a castle nut is simply a safety net created to prevent some jackleg with zero common sense from either hand-tightening it or cranking on it until he snaps the receiver in half. Torque specs are like the "Hot" warnings on McDonald's coffee - legal measures to protect against litigation from the mechanically-challenged. (<---That's sigline material, right there.)
I think the thing to bear in mind here is this is supposed to be more of a professional forum. The general consensus here is that you probably shouldn't "build" your first AR. This isn't like ARFCOM's "build it yourself" forum where you have guys trying to assemble their first lower receiver in their lap using vise grips and duct tape. So, with that in mind, it's safe to assume that non-amateurs have a general idea about how tight a castle nut should be. Tighten it and stake it. Don't obsess over what exact spec to torque it to.
Honest to God, I think you just described how I put my first lower together...minus the duct tape. That lower has seen 5k rounds with all the same internals as day 1. But I guess I'm just not mechanically-challenged :D
(I have most all the cool tools now, so any lower I get my hands on are now assembled with the correct tools.)
PS - It is actually my lack of obsession over the torque value that led me to my original question about said value...as I didn't know there was one ;)
Well, while we're having AR15 confessional: I'd never heard of staking the castle nut until I joined this site. I've been into AR's since 2002 and had built several and worked on countless more. Most of my "education" was "on the bench" at the shop where I worked. Because I was mechanically-minded and had that engineer's drive for specifics I began reading (ARFCOM @ that time) and quickly became the "AR guy" at the shop. I diagnosed, fixed and worked on rifles of all shapes and sizes. In fact, when my own receiver extension (Commercial spec RRA extension on a Lauer lower) shot loose, I though, huh, that's weird. I'll fix this (apply blue locktite to threads :eek:) and crank it on good and tight. Now that I'm working on more guns for other people I'm a lot more confident having the proper tools and doing things "by the book."
For all the genius in Stoner's design, there sure are a lot of guys, "professional gunsmiths" included that have no clue how things are supposed to go together. That's why I'm taking IG's Armorers course next month here in GA; to further my education and get my "stamp of approval" saying that I knows what I knows.:big_boss:
Bending the bas tube can work, I'd just align it right though.. I've had a few misaligned tubes come in fro factory guns.
I know exactly what forum this is and its purpose. But since you wanted to lay the bait, I'll spring the trap. You questioned why anyone would need to use a torque wrench. You have been a member here for 2.5 years and apparently you don't know that there are torque values. Additionally it shows me that you spend little time actually reading any of the technical stuff or you wouldn't be asking that question. This particular question has been asked several times over the years. I was simply providing a tip based upon my observations and not provide full detailed instruction on how to do the task. If people really want to learn more they will do some RESEARCH.
In case you forgot where this thread is located (as the OP I doubt it), take a gander at the top of the screen where it says "AR TECHNICAL Discussion"....hell even the thread title says "Technical" in it. Ergo, if it is out of line to ask specific "technical" questions that tend to "dissect", then maybe this thread needs a new name and a new home. :rolleyes:
I know exactly what forum this is and its purpose. But since you wanted to lay the bait, I'll spring the trap.
No bait, just an observation of a contradiction.
You questioned why anyone would need to use a torque wrench. You have been a member here for 2.5 years and apparently you don't know that there are torque values.
Speeking of observation, during my 2.5 years here, I have seen you repeatedly lock threads that contained questions to answers that were already given if a simple search was utilized....yet, according to the below, you create a thread that covers many topics that I have already researched in my time here...I don't mind it personally, and it would surely help other people who haven't had their hands on the AR build process, but nonetheless, it's another contradiction.
Additionally it shows me that you spend little time actually reading any of the technical stuff or you wouldn't be asking that question. This particular question has been asked several times over the years. I was simply providing a tip based upon my observations and not provide full detailed instruction on how to do the task. If people really want to learn more they will do some RESEARCH.
I am quite adept at research. I have never heard of anyone actually using a torque wrench for a castle nut. The common practice that I was aware of was torque, then stake....as confirmed by yourself below...
In reality you don't need a torque wrench. Apply some anti-seize and get the nut snug, then apply a little more umph. It'll be fine. Just make sure that you stake it good.
^https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=48596
I research only what I need/want to know. There's not enough time in the day to research everything, yet when I happen across a thread called "Technical Tip of the Day" that mentions something that sparks a question, and I ask that question, and then get called out for "picking apart and dissecting" everything, I'm left thinking "WTF?"
Either way, I'm out, you can have your thread and have a good day.
Since you love to argue I will leave it with this.
1. You can't torque something without a torque wrench. You can however "tighten" something.
2. I tell people to use a torque wrench and I have often stated it's not necessary. That's not a contradiction, that's called playing it safe because there are people who would screw it up or allow their buddy to screw it up otherwise. The manual states to use a torque wrench and that's the default answer.
Still unsure why you have some issue with this thread. It was designed to refresh people's minds and provide some basic info to help them out.
No bait, just an observation of a contradiction.
Speeking of observation, during my 2.5 years here, I have seen you repeatedly lock threads that contained questions to answers that were already given if a simple search was utilized....yet, according to the below, you create a thread that covers many topics that I have already researched in my time here...I don't mind it personally, and it would surely help other people who haven't had their hands on the AR build process, but nonetheless, it's another contradiction.
I am quite adept at research. I have never heard of anyone actually using a torque wrench for a castle nut. The common practice that I was aware of was torque, then stake....as confirmed by yourself below...
^https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=48596
I research only what I need/want to know. There's not enough time in the day to research everything, yet when I happen across a thread called "Technical Tip of the Day" that mentions something that sparks a question, and I ask that question, and then get called out for "picking apart and dissecting" everything, I'm left thinking "WTF?"
Either way, I'm out, you can have your thread and have a good day.
Referring to the Castle nut.
Once it is tight, you can place the torque wrench or breaker bar on the on the tool and continue to tighten the castle nut.
A few things that will greatly assist are the Hammerheadrifletool, a good receiver extension from Colt, BCM, LMT or Vltor (these I like!) and good good endplates from the same.
Is there a torque range that you shoot for? I've honestly never heard of using a torque wrench for these...only tighten as much as you can with the tool (in hand) and then stake...which I still need to do...
A torque wrench OR a breaker bar can be used, as stated in Iraqgunz's post.
If you didn't know there was a torque value for the castle nut, fine, (not everyone knows that nuts and bolts require a minimum torque value so their fastening is functionally proper), but don't make a great deal about it. R.E.s are not exactly tight when screwed into the lower receiver, and the castle nut along with the end plate, when tighten to that minimum value, provide the necessary rigidity for this part of the AR to function properly. Some engineer figure this out some time ago. If one isn't a wrench turner, one has no idea how much 37 to 40 ft/lbs is, let alone 45, 50, or even 60 ft/lbs for the barrel nut.
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