Why won't KAC join the fight? [Archive]

ClearedHot

03-07-13, 19:09

As LAV has mentioned before, at this point in the game, we either stand together or fall together. It seems like KAC has no interest in joining the fight, and in some ways has done things to hurt the cause. For example, in CA they are appeasing the gun grabbers by refusing to ship/sell ANY of their products to the citizens. This has been their company policy for years!

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=34322

Essentially KAC is doing the opposite of what Ronnie Barrett has done in that state. KAC has stated that they will still sell to LE/GOV in CA, but will not sell anything to private citizens.

Colt, DD, LMT, and even HK all sell rifles to CA. Colt has been on the California AWB ban list from the beginning, but they have made proactive efforts to get their products to the citizens of that state by releasing CA compliant rifles (6920CA and 6940CA). KAC won't even sell you parts if you're a CA resident!

Now I realize their primary business is geared towards military sales, just like HK at one point in time. But even HK was smart enough to figure out that CA is a huge market for black rifles. KAC has lost a couple of big military contracts in recent years (UK MOD and SOPMOD Block 2), so you would think they would make an effort to reach every segment of the market. Not the case apparently. I'm just wondering when they will finally wake up and get in the game like a lot of other companies in the industry have done.

JBecker 72

03-07-13, 19:19

When I spent 2 years in CA, and tried to buy some stuff from KAC I was turned away. I wanted a sight and a URX rail, and they wouldn't sell to me. Instead I had to go through a somewhat local shop that sold me the items more expensive than what it was in KAC's store, and I had to pay sales tax on top of it. Very frustrating. (At the time what I wanted was out of stock at the usual online places)

I like their gear, so I buy it. However there are a lot of CA residents who absolutely hate KAC because of their lack of support for the average Joe in California.

I don't get it either.

PA PATRIOT

03-07-13, 19:35

KAC has their own business ethic and they are sticking by it, as other business have the right to boycott L/E sales KAC has decided it is in their best interest to support L/E sales in AWB states.

If KAC does this in all the AWB states were the "Boycott" is suppose to be affecting L/E purchases they will be able to capitalize on the distributor void and increase sales.

Army Chief

03-07-13, 19:36

I don't speak for KAC, nor do I want to come across as just another California-hater, but I think the current political climate there is such that any manufacturer has to seriously weigh the pros and cons when it comes to servicing that market. If you're making handguns, perhaps the margins are there. If you're making black rifles and related components, there is a very real chance that you will get to dance with the Golden State's Adjutant General at some point. KAC may be somewhat risk averse in that case, but I'm not sure that I blame them, considering that they are a smaller company with a revenue stream that depends largely upon the kinds of things that California seeks to restrict.

AC

JBecker 72

03-07-13, 19:40

I can understand not selling rifles, but parts like rails and sights? (and yes I know CA has the RAS listed as an actual "assault weapon" in their ban, dumb****s)

Army Chief

03-07-13, 19:45

I can understand not selling rifles, but parts like rails and sights? (and yes I know CA has the RAS listed as an actual "assault weapon" in their ban, dumb****s)

It doesn't take a great deal of imagination ...

"The south Florida company was engaged in the deliberate distribution of components specifically designed to make restricted and banned assault weapons even more deadly."

AC

Iraqgunz

03-07-13, 22:54

So you just answered the question. We know what common sense is, but the idiots in who make our laws do not. I would be concerned too if I owned a business that generated millions of dollars.

These ****tards attack us at every angle and it's not worth it.

I can understand not selling rifles, but parts like rails and sights? (and yes I know CA has the RAS listed as an actual "assault weapon" in their ban, dumb****s)

SteyrAUG

03-07-13, 23:20

KAC is more or less Colt Jr.

8200rpm

03-07-13, 23:33

KAC is more or less Colt Jr.

Colt gladly sells CA-compliant versions of their rifles to citizens in CA. Might be hard to believe, but CA is full of folks who love to spend US dollars on guns.

DD, S&W, SIG and Ruger are also pumping CA full of CA-compliant AR's.

I'd bet that there have been more AR's sold in CA after the AWB in 2000 than before.

ClearedHot

03-07-13, 23:58

KAC is a privately owned company like Magpul and BCM. They could implement policy changes at will, without having to jump through hoops like a public company would have to.

It's obvious that C. Reed Knight doesn't have the inclination or intestinal fortitude to "do the right thing" like Rich Fitzpatrick of Magpul and Paul Buffoni of BCM have already done. Instead, KAC has chosen to capitulate with the opposition. In essence what they're doing is similar to what S&W and Ruger did during the Clinton ban era.

fixit69

03-08-13, 00:56

Let's not kid ourselves. Money is the factor of major machines. Period.

Some big names have said what most of us belive. Some have not.

Make YOUR choice of who to buy from.

The ones I spent money on and the ones I wouldn't don't make a damn.

What would you do? That's what makes a damn.

Iraqgunz

03-08-13, 01:01

If you are so concerned about it, then why don't you call or email KAC and ask him or PM one of the KAC reps and explain your position.

KAC is a privately owned company like Magpul and BCM. They could implement policy changes at will, without having to jump through hoops like a public company would have to.

It's obvious that C. Reed Knight doesn't have the inclination or intestinal fortitude to "do the right thing" like Rich Fitzpatrick of Magpul and Paul Buffoni of BCM have already done. Instead, KAC has chosen to capitulate with the opposition. In essence what they're doing is similar to what S&W and Ruger did during the Clinton ban era.

ClearedHot

03-08-13, 01:28

If you are so concerned about it, then why don't you call or email KAC and ask him or PM one of the KAC reps and explain your position.

Or one of the KAC reps on the board could jump in the thread and explain their company's position on the point of contention for everyone's edification.

Rattlehead

03-08-13, 01:51

For example, in CA they are appeasing the gun grabbers by refusing to ship/sell ANY of their products to the citizens. This has been their company policy for years!

Then it shouldn't be a surprise, and they aren't "appeasing the gun grabbers", they're keeping their noses out of a bunch of BS legislation that CA has enacted on its citizens. I can't even remember how many threads I've seen with people whining about how KAC 'hates' CA.

KAC won't even sell you parts if you're a CA resident!

Then don't buy it, or better yet, send them an e-mail with your questions and or concerns. No one is forcing you to buy KAC, there are plenty of retailers that will sell KAC products to you, even if you are in CA.

Iraqgunz

03-08-13, 02:00

Many companies actually have PR/Spokespersons to make official statements. Want to guess at how many times I have seen people get fired from a job because they made statements that weren't approved?

I'm not going to tell any of the KAC reps what they should or shouldn't do. But, if it's a concern to you then PM one of them yourself.

Or one of the KAC reps on the board could jump in the thread and explain their company's position on the point of contention for everyone's edification.

Belmont31R

03-08-13, 03:26

KAC makes a shit ton of money on gov sales....more than on civilian sales. Why upset your primary customer base?

They have said on here its 'almost' not worth the hassle of selling to citizens due to the customer service side of having to deal with non-gov types.

They are, and most likely always will be a gov contractor first.

JBecker 72

03-08-13, 08:18

So you just answered the question. We know what common sense is, but the idiots in who make our laws do not. I would be concerned too if I owned a business that generated millions of dollars.

These ****tards attack us at every angle and it's not worth it.

Again, I don't understand why a CA resident can't buy a micro sight on their website, or even a wrench for a URX rail, or a plastic panel kit.

Hell, Colt figured it out. Thousands of other retailers have also figured it out as well.

Littlelebowski

03-08-13, 08:58

Or one of the KAC reps on the board could jump in the thread and explain their company's position on the point of contention for everyone's edification.

Why don't you call/PM/email them then?

djegators

03-08-13, 09:14

Perhaps I am off base on what I think I know, but my understanding is that companies like KAC, and even Colt, while they appear to be huge outfits to us, they are actually rather small, at least in terms of resources available to them (outside of production that is), and manpower...perhaps less than a hundred employees total? Anyways, KAC seems to be primarily based on govt contracts, and has limited resources to deal with issues beyond that. Perhaps they are also limited by those contracts as well? I could be way off base, but that is my understanding.

Voodoo_Man

03-08-13, 09:16

Why do they have to do any explaining at all?

A private company, just like a private person, does not need to explain in any way for any reason, especially when asked to do so.

This is America after all, right?

Army Chief

03-08-13, 09:21

The bottom line to me is this: KAC didn't establish their place in the industry by being stupid or making foolish decisions. Whatever their rationale may be at present, I'd wager that there is some very sound reasoning behind it, whether they ultimately choose to disclose that information or not.

AC

Safetyhit

03-08-13, 09:30

KAC makes a shit ton of money on gov sales....more than on civilian sales. Why upset your primary customer base?

This mentality among too many of the bigger players is why we are being walked on state by state. May work for them personally, but not likely good for all of us in the long run.

They have said on here its 'almost' not worth the hassle of selling to citizens due to the customer service side of having to deal with non-gov types.

I know of no other firearm manufacturer anywhere who is nearly as fearful of California as they are. Why is that?

They are, and most likely always will be a gov contractor first.

That's fine, but nobody will be wrong for taking issue with it. I mean really, what comes off worse right now to many than a "government before the people" policy?

I know they're all in a difficult spot (those that care anyway), but there really is a right and wrong here. If you choose to place your profit over the pursuit of the liberty that enabled you to exist and thrive in the first place then you simply are not making the sacrifices many believe we need at this time.

SHIVAN

03-08-13, 09:33

Safetyhit

03-08-13, 09:46

Nobody wants to upset the Knights' and I'm sure no one wants them to stop adding their extremely valuable inputs here. Aside from their professional accomplishments I talked quite a bit with both in Tampa and they were very cordial and courteous despite being pretty busy. Good people who are the epitome of what this forum is based on and they are always respected.

They'll be fine going as they are for now no doubt, maybe even forever. But somewhere at some point down the line the pressure will likely only increase. Meantime no one wants to demonize them, but we would like their valuable assistance at some point if they will be kind enough to offer it.

domestique

03-08-13, 10:00

I tell you what, how about everyone post "proof of life" on your KAC gear, to see how serious KAC should take our concerns?

I suspect that, unlike Magpul, not many civvies have an extensive collection of personally bought KAC gear that would motivate KAC to re-address their stance(s).

I am willing to be proven wrong though, so let's see those extensive KAC collections with screenname and a current dated newspaper....

:big_boss:

I don't get the paper.... but I do have 2 KAC SR15 Lowers, and 2 KAC rails (URXII and URXIII). :p

SHIVAN

03-08-13, 10:10

I don't get the paper.... but I do have 2 KAC SR15 Lowers, and 2 KAC rails (URXII and URXIII). :p

Ok, so you covered about 1/3 the total sales price of a single Mk11 kit? Hmm...I bet III is seriously considering suspending GOV sales any second now.

:D

JBecker 72

03-08-13, 10:13

I tell you what, how about everyone post "proof of life" on your KAC gear, to see how serious KAC should take our concerns?

I suspect that, unlike Magpul, not many civvies have an extensive collection of personally bought KAC gear that would motivate KAC to re-address their stance(s).

I am willing to be proven wrong though, so let's see those extensive KAC collections with screenname and a current dated newspaper....

:big_boss:

I don't have an extensive collection, but this rifle is sporting about $500 worth of KAC gear. This stuff is what I could not buy from them while I was living in CA, a URX III, URX panel kit, and a micro sight.

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s73/hownowbrowncow_02/Guns/IMAG0482_zps8613e630.jpg

JBecker 72

03-08-13, 10:13

Ok, so you covered about 1/3 the total sales price of a single Mk11 kit? Hmm...I bet III is seriously considering suspending GOV sales any second now.

:D

No one is saying they shouldn't value their GOV sales.

domestique

03-08-13, 10:14

Ok, so you covered about 1/3 the total sales price of a single Mk11 kit? Hmm...I bet III is seriously considering suspending GOV sales any second now.

:D

HAHA, but KAC also made 3 times the money (on those parts) by selling to me than through a GOV. contract.

SHIVAN

03-08-13, 10:25

No one is saying they shouldn't value their GOV sales.

I'm not disagreeing with the premise, I am looking for a demonstration of why KAC should value random opinions of internet gun forums.

If suddenly there were 100 pages of personally owned KAC pics, with proof of life, I would suspect they might understand that personal sales are something that feed their machine in some fashion.

I know that won't happen, so I am "moderating" this hunt by positing a rational request that I know can not be completed.

Army Chief

03-08-13, 10:31

KevinB or III may eventually share an insight or two, should they so choose, but until then, we're kind of riding around on a bike with flat tires here, no?

AC

Bulletdog

03-08-13, 11:01

There is a little business idiom that I learned decades ago: Do a fantastic job of customer service, and you are lucky if the happy customer tells one person. Do a poor job and that customer will tell EVERYONE they know.

I know what I will be saying about Knight's Armament, and I know what I'll be saying about BCM and Magpul. Now none of these companies probably care about what one idiot on a public gun forum says or thinks, but public opinion, she is a fickle mistress. Fortunes can be made or lost because of public opinion.

In any fight, and this is most certainly a fight, I like to take notice of who is standing WITH me and who is standing with my enemy. (I count supplying my enemy with weapons to fight me with as "standing" with them, btw.) Magpul, BCM, Midway, and so many others have taken a firm stance AGAINST my enemy. For that, they will receive my business, any business I can send them, and my undying devotion. So far, I don't have anything good to say about Knight's.

lifebreath

03-08-13, 11:53

theblackknight

03-08-13, 12:09

Im not sure we should consider the actions of Magpul and BCM as SOP that everyone should fall in on.

sent from mah gun,using my sights

domestique

03-08-13, 12:28

I'm not sure why everyone is holding Magpul up soo high.

Their FIRST statement was that they were going to continue supplying magazines to police in banned states… Which they LATER updated to what BCM and others are doing.

First Statement: Still selling mags to LEO's in banned states (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/02/daniel-zimmerman/magpul-breaks-bad-continues-sales-to-ban-state-leos/)

Article of Magpul reversing policy:

Reversing Statement (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/03/daniel-zimmerman/magpul-reverses-policy-ends-leo-sales-in-ban-states/)

SHIVAN

03-08-13, 12:34

I'm not sure why everyone is holding Magpul up soo high.

I hold them in high esteem because I know Richard and Drake, and I know that they are principled men, and a true asset to the 2A cause.

I do believe that if local LE administrators start to feel the pinch of no mags, no guns, then our laws might start moving in the other direction, but I also know that if Magpul were to go out of business, we would lose a very large leveraging arm.

YMMV...

Dave L.

03-08-13, 12:38

I am willing to be proven wrong though, so let's see those extensive KAC collections with screenname and a current dated newspaper....

You know this wont happen. KAC is out of reach for many, thus easy to tear into.

I want to know how many local, sate, and federal LE organizations in CA(or any other ban state) ISSUE out KAC weapons to officers. I'm guessing not enough to matter.

BWT

03-08-13, 14:19

domestique

03-08-13, 14:39

I mean... If you want to be completely honest about it. Where's DD, LMT, Spikes, Bushmaster, Colt, Remington, LWRC, Palmetto State, Stag, Rock River Arms and everybody else? Buy a BCM gun over the others next chance you get.

When was the last time they were in stock!? I couldn't find a lower in stock for 2 months BEFORE Sandy Hook