View Full Version : MKA 1919 AR12 Tooth&Nail Converted Shotgun
jeanclaudesegal
03-09-13, 19:37
Ok Fellers
Just finished dressing up another one of my Barbie Dolls..check it out and tell me what you think http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GcGJ0ecr60&list=UUkznvl5ECCCRkVh5dUC7qnw&index=1
Could almost pass as a .308, very nice. What is the optic?
jeanclaudesegal
03-09-13, 22:34
Could almost pass as a .308, very nice. What is the optic?
Thanx for looking glad you like it..
the optic is made by kruger.they make some of the finest scopes available. here is there website..they make a 2nd gen military version of this scope that cost about 10x more.. here is the link below
http://www.krugeroptical.com/dts.html
The_Hammer_Man
03-09-13, 22:49
Those Turks make a nice shotgun. One of my friends uses one as his three gun shotty.
jeanclaudesegal
03-09-13, 23:50
yes they shoot very well..was surprised how well it fired right out of the box
mastiffhound
03-10-13, 00:11
Very cool, I have been wondering about these AR look-alike shotguns. If I could find one I might get it. It would match my ARs better than a Saiga 12 guage!
jeanclaudesegal
03-10-13, 11:19
most deffinite..it is a great gun..after the upgrades..it will resemble a 308..Below is a list of parts used.
1.tooth and nail level 5 quad rail
2.tooth and nail stock adapter
3.CAA butt stock with storage compartment and 1913 rail
4.UTG USA made Buffer Tube with castle nut
5.XN enhanced firing pin spring
6.Tromix Gas Bushing
7.Kruger Optic
jeanclaudesegal
03-10-13, 23:45
Here is the youtube review..sorry for the shitty lighting..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GcGJ0ecr60&list=UUkznvl5ECCCRkVh5dUC7qnw&index=1
Nice 1100 ;)
I have no experience with the 1919 but I will say there is almost no way it could be worse than a Saiga without a magwell!
I can't get past the polymer receivers, and I haven't actually been able to figure out where a mag fed shotgun has a defined roll except for 3-Gun... but yours looks good.
jeanclaudesegal
03-13-13, 18:56
magazine fed shotguns are pretty fun..i use mine to hunt and for recreational shooting..and also for skeet..the polymer lower is tough as rocks..its kinda of like the glock concept..it is light durable and parts are readily available for purchase..so far so good..will make an updated report after a few more months of ownership
Noodles,
I really didn't see much use for shotguns outside of bird hunting and gaming until I saw a Saiga (I really didn't even like them in 3-gun- 2-gun seemed like a better use of time and money). The idea of having a weapon that functioned like a rifle but ran on shotshells, in the event rifle rounds were less available, struck me as appealing. Unfortunately, after seeing one in use in 3-gun and seeing the long-running issues the user had performing mag changes, I lost interest.
The MKA 1919, Vepr 12, and new factory magwell Saigas eliminate the problems the original Saigas had.
The Vepr 12 I now own is everything I originally wanted from the Saiga, as mags insert easily and it features a last-shot BHO and external controls for it.
For the past couple of months, birdshot and the occasional box of buckshot or slugs have been the only ammunition available or not super inflated in price. I see a place for, what is essentially, a 'rifle' that runs on shotshells.
If you had two semi-auto firearms in front of you that both functioned equally well, would you take the tube fed or the box mag fed? It seems like a no-brainer to me. Box mag fed is superior in almost every way.
If you had two semi-auto firearms in front of you that both functioned equally well, would you take the tube fed or the box mag fed? It seems like a no-brainer to me. Box mag fed is superior in almost every way.
Cost?
The OP's setup looks really nice, and maybe cost comparable to an expensive autoloader, but I suspect it is a lot more expensive than my 870.
If money weren't an issue and there were no reliability issues I'd be onboard.
-john
If you had two semi-auto firearms in front of you that both functioned equally well, would you take the tube fed or the box mag fed? It seems like a no-brainer to me. Box mag fed is superior in almost every way.
TUBE. Any day of the week. Here is why:
Best gun sale I've ever made was just recently, I bought a Saiga before the ban "scare" a bit back, put $400 worth of parts, $100 into working the gas ports, then sold it just recently for $1600.... I... HATED... that gun after actually learning how to run a shotgun for real.
IMO, the Saiga is good for exactly two things. Competition use where it doesn't matter how dumb the gun is because all the guns are dumb and non-practical, who cares if it runs 96/100 birdshot rounds on a static unrealistic course of fire, it's about as truly useful as a racegun 1911. OR as an SBS, I will give it that, that with $1500-$2000 worth of custom work, you can have an 8" 12ga that can still utilize a good number of rounds (albeit in a stupid large and clumsy magazine).
Issues I discovered with the Saiga that no one talks about...
- At least my Izmesh Saiga was worse in fit and finish than any AK or even 7.62 Saiga I ever held. It ran fine when I was done with it, but these are $300-$500 guns, nothing more. If you can get one for that, good to go.
- The 12ga round is NOT NOT NOT designed to fit in a magazine! Any amount of prolonged storage in one will bulge the case out and it will start 'leaking' filling from loads like Federal 00buck that have it. The rounds quickly physically deform enough to fail to feed and eject. This is the real issue with these guns. Applies to all mag fed shotguns.
- Magwels are REQUIRED, but that means you're going to be fitting each mag by hand. Own two guns, and it's likely the two mags may not interchange, unacceptable.
- No Saiga I've ever physically seen even a finely "tuned" Tromix or my own gun ran 100%, 95% was absolute best. This may not always be the gun's fault, the 12ga round was NOT designed for a box magazine!
- Those giant brakes are absolute eye candy and are 100% ineffective in 18"+ barrel lengths.
- If you feel you need 8-10-12-20 rounds of buckshot.... You need a rifle. End of story. Shotguns in real world have become less primary and more secondary. They're useful for being able to accept a huge number of ammo types from less to very lethal. They're useful for breaching. They're useful for animal control. They are not as desirable as say an AR-15 for general and defensive use.
- Saiga owners for the most part are completely delusional about what they own and what it's practical application is. Whoohoo Range toy!
-80% of people pronounce it SEGA which is WRONG and I'm tired of correcting people in person. It's SIGH-GAH!
In short, after taking a couple defensive shotgun classes, and really getting some time on M1, m2, m3, m4, 500, Nova, 590, 930, 870, SXS, 870, 1100, 1187, Saiga12s, MKA 1919, KSG, Ithica 37, and a couple others, I could not possibly rely on anything but the Benellis and the 870, imo, everything else is inferior for one reason or another.
On topic, the whole point of a shotgun with it's large easily handle-able ammo, is that you can continually load before being actually out of ammo. Yes, a good tube shotgun holds 5-8 and when you have time, you reload round by round, you can do this without major effort or taking your eyes off of a target, and from a pocket if you have no gear. You can swap a single round of a different type of ammo at any time, adding major versatility to the platform. Saigas, whether new model or not, allow none of this.
So great, now that I've sold my original version, all the same to me.
jeanclaudesegal
03-14-13, 21:51
Cost?
The OP's setup looks really nice, and maybe cost comparable to an expensive autoloader, but I suspect it is a lot more expensive than my 870.
If money weren't an issue and there were no reliability issues I'd be onboard.
-john
Not really that expensive..if you buy the gun and parts and put everything together yourself..you are looking about $699 for a brand new MKA 1919 and $550 in conversion parts.. total amount would be $1249.00 excluding tax and shipping..So far i dont have any major reliablity issues with the gun..the fit and finish feels much more solid than before..But of course these are my first few months of ownership..After i put another few thousand rounds through the gun i will make a follow up report..
More barfcom post? :suicide2:
Again, if you had two semi-auto firearms that functioned equally well.
Not enough rounds downrange with my Vepr 12, just like the OP and his 1919, but current performance is encouraging.
The 12ga round is NOT NOT NOT designed to fit in a magazine! Any amount of prolonged storage in one will bulge the case out and it will start 'leaking' filling from loads like Federal 00buck that have it. The rounds quickly physically deform enough to fail to feed and eject. This is the real issue with these guns. Applies to all mag fed shotguns.
I don't think the 12 gauge was designed to fit in a magazine, tube or box, period. The tube magazine and corresponding loading mechanism, now commonly is use, were designed to work with the existing shell. These box magazines are no different.
I've encountered the deformed rounds you mention. I've had 3" Winchester 00 kept in a 12 round mag, condition 3, for a couple of months and whenever the shotgun was not in use. My Vepr 12 feeds and extracts the deformed shells, dry cycling and firing. A few magazines worth have been hand cycled and fired this way, without issue so far. I did notice that the feed angle was changed once the compression set in, since compressing the front halves of all the shells in the magazine makes the top round 'point lower' at the feed ramp. Still, I found the rounds seem to reach a maximum level of compression. The compressed state of the shells did not pose any problem for my Vepr 12.
I can see how losing fill might be an issue, which I don't think could be avoided except by finding a brand of shell that didn't exhibit the issue by experimentation. Whether or not it would cause feeding issues remains to be seen. The 3" shells I've observed have no fill to leak.
No Saiga I've ever physically seen even a finely "tuned" Tromix or my own gun ran 100%, 95% was absolute best. This may not always be the gun's fault, the 12ga round was NOT designed for a box magazine!
To be fair, I've seen the Benellis and Remigton 1100s in our matches malfunction too. I always chalked it up to the ammunition used.
Many of the Saigas I've seen had malfunctions, along with the needlessly difficult magazine changes, but none of the malfunctions I've witnessed were due to feeding issues. The vast majority I've witnessed were FTEs due to gas issues or large amounts of friction on the carrier assembly robbing it of velocity before ejection. I can only assume that the Russians never intended them to work with birdshot and we (Americans) have frequently failed to identify all of the parts of the mechanism needing alteration to run them with birdshot.
If you feel you need 8-10-12-20 rounds of buckshot.... You need a rifle. End of story. Shotguns in real world have become less primary and more secondary. They're useful for being able to accept a huge number of ammo types from less to very lethal. They're useful for breaching. They're useful for animal control. They are not as desirable as say an AR-15 for general and defensive use.
I agree that a rifle is a superior primary weapon, my argument is that, assuming these NEW box mag-fed shotguns run as reliably as the Benelli, the Benelli and all tube-fed shotguns are as obsolete as lever action and stripper clip-fed rifles.
My thinking is if shotgun shells were all I had available, I'd rather run a shotgun that operates like a rifle than step down to an obsolete weapon using a feeding system that is slower and more tedious to run. If the "obsolete" weapon runs consistently while the newer weapon does not, of course I'd choose the consistent weapon.
Those giant brakes are absolute eye candy and are 100% ineffective in 18"+ barrel lengths.
I have no experience with them, but if they're only for "eye candy" they can keep them. They look like they add weight up front and I don't find them visually appealing. :D
On topic, the whole point of a shotgun with it's large easily handle-able ammo, is that you can continually load before being actually out of ammo. Yes, a good tube shotgun holds 5-8 and when you have time, you reload round by round, you can do this without major effort or taking your eyes off of a target, and from a pocket if you have no gear. You can swap a single round of a different type of ammo at any time, adding major versatility to the platform. Saigas, whether new model or not, allow none of this.
I just can't see anyone defending the use of lever action rifles over AR15s because one can keep topping them off and never run out of ammunition. This is what this argument looks like to me.
You may find shotshells easy to handle, but I don't, at least when drawing them one at a time from a pouch, pocket, or elastic loops. I've found this to be slow and tedious with every shooter I've seen, except for the guys who run the plastic gamer belt clips, which hold 4-5 shells each, who grab a handful of ready-aligned shells and feed them all quickly from the hand. In the stages we put together though, I've seen guys lose some or all of the shells from these clips on more than one occasion.
I'm curious, and I think the OP might also appreciate, knowing more about your experience with the MKA1919 in defensive classes and if any method of carrying shells you've found allows a roughly comparable rate of fire to that of a weapon fed from box magazines.
I just can't see anyone defending the use of lever action rifles over AR15s because one can keep topping them off and never run out of ammunition. This is what this argument looks like to me.
As you know he suggests that it's better to be as efficient at loading as possible and then utilize that ability to outweigh the risk of a failure. Most feel this way but sometimes the concern may be a bit overblown, especially if you don't store loaded mags and have a quality manufacturer. And not sure I'd be content to say that there is no need for a shotgun to carry over 10 rounds, as back-up or not I'd still want to hold as many rounds as possible without being cumbersome.
Either way you both make some very sound points pro and con.
jeanclaudesegal
03-21-13, 18:07
Ok gentlemen..For those of you who are not to happy about a semi auto magazine fed shotgun using standard 12 gauge rounds...You may wanna try something new..take a look at the youtube link below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bWrvUx1nz8
Ok gentlemen..For those of you who are not to happy about a semi auto magazine fed shotgun using standard 12 gauge rounds...You may wanna try something new..take a look at the youtube link below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bWrvUx1nz8
Saw that awhile back. The very reason it is a good idea and works well is the very reason it is doomed to obscurity: proprietary ammo
But they do confirm that 12ga ammo is NOT designed to feed from a magazine no matter what Saiga/Vepr/Molot/Legion owners tell you otherwise :)
Besides topping off, the most useful aspect of a shotgun is its ability to fire multiple types of ammunition. Bird, Slugs, Buck, Less Lethal, OC powder/gel/spray, Breaching, Tracer, Improvised, etc. You completely lose those two major abilities with a mag fed shotgun. Yea, you 'could' drop the mag, insert a new one with different ammo then rack, but lets be serious about that.
Not to mention those mags are retarded in size. I like seeing the comments for mag fed shotguns, and I'll admit I fell for it as well, but when you really run both, it's obvious why mag fed has never caught on and tube fed has been around for 100+ years.
Factor in all the ways a modern rifle is better than a shotgun, and what you have is even more reason to take advantage of the strengths instead of try to compensate for supposed weaknesses. Just my opinion of course! :)
Originally Posted by jeanclaudesegal View Post
Ok gentlemen..For those of you who are not to happy about a semi auto magazine fed shotgun using standard 12 gauge rounds...You may wanna try something new..take a look at the youtube link below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bWrvUx1nz8
Saw that awhile back. The very reason it is a good idea and works well is the very reason it is doomed to obscurity: proprietary ammo
I saw that and thought the same thing. 6.8 and 6.5 grendal had better chances to take off than that stuff. It's a shame, because is sounds like the rounds might have features similar to Federal's Flite Control buckshot. No choke needed. Every part of the ammo and weapon design looks optimized for its purpose. I think you could even do a double stack mag without much additional work. Shame.
But they do confirm that 12ga ammo is NOT designed to feed from a magazine no matter what Saiga/Vepr/Molot/Legion owners tell you otherwise
I agree that 12ga wasn't designed to feed from a magazine. Any magazine. The 12ga shotshell was developed about 10 years prior to the first magazine-fed shotgun (Winchester Pump-action).
You seem to be suggesting that the 12ga was "designed" to work in a tube magazine and is just shoehorned into functioning in a box mag. If you're saying you think tube magazines work better with shotshells, I agree, in some instances. However, suggesting that 12ga was "designed" to work with a tube magazine is as false as saying the 7.62x54r was "designed" to work with the belt links for the PKM or the box mag of the SVD. All three weapons and ammo carriage systems were designed to function with preexisting ammunition. I don't mean to be anal about semantics, but you have repeatedly used that as a point against 12ga in a box magazine and it's fallacious.
Have you seen any malfunctions you can attribute directly to the magazine of a box fed shotgun? Of all the malfunctions I've seen in matches with Saiga shotguns, I've never seen issues attributable to the box magazine. Not one. I don't expect to see one outside of the same type seen with box fed rifles, like broken/worn mags. In every case I've witnessed, malfunctions with magazine fed shotguns were due to gas and resistance issues, related to using loads lighter than designed for, that screwed up the timing of bolt assembly and magazine.
Besides topping off, the most useful aspect of a shotgun is its ability to fire multiple types of ammunition. Bird, Slugs, Buck, Less Lethal, OC powder/gel/spray, Breaching, Tracer, Improvised, etc. You completely lose those two major abilities with a mag fed shotgun. Yea, you 'could' drop the mag, insert a new one with different ammo then rack, but lets be serious about that.
How is topping off a tube fed gun any "advantage" compared with a box fed shotgun? You give up "topping off" in exchange for a full 8-12 rounds in the time it takes to grab and load 1-4 shells in a tube fed. How does this differ from my ar15/box fed vs lever action/tube fed comparison?
I'll admit that frequent slug selects are faster using a tube-fed, especially the Benelli, but I honestly think that this is an advantage that will only ever be felt in gun games where stages are designed to handicap box fed guns by featuring lots of switching back and forth between birdshot and slugs, since you have to be mindful of switching back to birdshot before shooting close targets which would be damaged by slugs and result in a DQ. This is not an issue with a box fed gun outside of a game, where you could just keep shooting with whatever you had loaded and switch at a lull or mag change.
Why would a box fed shotgun run less lethal or any other loads any differently from any other semi-auto shotgun?
What issue is there with removing a buckshot mag, sticking it in a pocket/pouch (or dropping it), inserting a slug mag, and racking the bolt (or sending the buck still in the chamber downrange) with a box fed gun? Is this that much slower than with a tube fed gun, especially considering that after a slightly longer 'select' operation, you now have 8-12 of whatever shells you wanted instead of only the one?
What non-game situation can any of us imagine that would dictate frequent rapid (other shell) selects with quick returns to whatever was in the tube like what the Benelli allows? A sudden target of opportunity that somehow is so important you're willing to disengage from all the close badguys your buckshot was just fine for to throw a long shot out and then go back to the close badguys? :dirol: If you frequently needed to engage 25m+ targets, wouldn't you switch to slugs for the rest of the engagement rather than trying to switch back and forth? Wouldn't a box fed gun actually accomplish this more easily than a tube fed gun? I doubt anyone's seriously going to advocate rapidly switching back and forth from less lethal to lethal loads.
Wouldn't a more realistic understanding of the shotgun's "versatility" be based in its ability to be used for a variety of planned roles via ammo selection rather than it's ability to rapidly change roles mid-fight?
Not to mention those mags are retarded in size.
I can carry a loaded 12 rnd Saiga/Vepr 12 mag in my back pocket with about as much retention as a full AR mag. I can carry them in long mag pouches on a vest or belt, a dump pouch, or an over-the-shoulder bag.
I like seeing the comments for mag fed shotguns, and I'll admit I fell for it as well, but when you really run both, it's obvious why mag fed has never caught on and tube fed has been around for 100+ years.
I think the reasons box fed shotguns haven't caught on is because they were poorly executed in the stock Saiga and chinese shotguns. There's also been lot of initial resistance to them in gun games, because of the "arms race" effect and the fact that a lot of people invested in high-end tube shotguns, only to see them suddenly outclassed. Training classes are focused on tube fed guns since those are common, have been in inventory with military and police, and likely will be for a few more years. After which they'll be retired like the lever actions and wheel guns, the techniques for running them relegated to the same category as quick-draw hip-shooting revolvers, with hand fanning, and they join the Sharps breach loaders and black powder rifles for use during primitive hunting season. :D
I think the reason the tube fed has been around for 100+ years and is still in use is because no one felt the need for a shotgun that reloaded faster than what they had, kind of like detachable magazines for bolt-action rifles that have recently carved out a niche. The advantages offered by a reliable box fed shotgun fill a pretty narrow niche. Duck gun? No real advantage. Doves? Maybe, depending on mag limit rules. Breacher? Maybe? Four legged game? No real advantage, unless you're thinking about bears. Self defense? Use a rifle. Self defense and need to use shotshells or a shotgun for some reason? Yes! Gun games? Maybe. Depends on if stage planners want to specifically handicap them. If not, they're better.
Just my opinion, of course. ;)
I still want to know about your experiences with the MKA1919, and think they'd fit well with the purpose of this thread.
Yep. I get it. You have an answer for everything. Good, I'm glad you're convinced. Please take a shotgun class with your mag fed shotgun and let us know how that goes. 600 rounds of buckshot is a whole lot different than casually plinking weak birdshot loads.
I was going to leave it at that but... Ugh... There is one bit of ridiculousness that you must be corrected on. Here are some descriptors of a shotgun shell: not rigid, rimmed, non-tapered, non-pointy, low tolerance, variable in length
Some of those are EXACTLY what you want for a tube fed round, or to feed from a tube magazine. Its not-rigid shell isn't being pressed inwards where it is weak but rather only slight pressure vertically where it is strong. Variable in length and not-particularly high tolerance, those aren't good or bad, just there. But rimmed, non-tapered, non-pointy, are the absolute best considerations for a tube magazine. See lever actions with tube magazines and what the rounds look like. If you were to design a shotgun round to fire from a tube magazine it would look a lot like what we have.
Now, those same factors are ALL horrible for box magazines. They are soft, so they squish and and deform. They're rimmed, so they don't stack well. They're variable in length so you may be limited to specific loads or brands, or start tilting the carrier or just run in OAL problems. They aren't pointy, so feed ramps don't work well, think about how a tube shotgun's carrier supports the entire shell as a ramp, where a box magazine is a lot less "guided" into the chamber. And non-tapered means the follower must move straight down, no curvature, not ideal imo, especially not when the cartridge may deform.
So no. The shotgun round is perfectly ideal for a tube and shit for a box mag. But hey... You load yours up and in runs "fine". Good for you. You seem to have it all worked out. Let's just see when Remington and Benelli come out with mag fed shotguns...
As to the rest of your points, show me a combat load on a mag fed gun. Look, I get it, you don't seem to understand the difference between a rifle and a shotgun. If you need more than 8 rounds of 12ga, you need a rifle. If you don't understand the versatility of loads, malfunction clearing, combat loading a single round and partial loading a tube gun - of course you'll like mag fed! Yes, at first glance it looks like a good idea. Please take a defensive shotgun class and then let us know how awesome they are.
You answered your own questions about ammo changeovers. Compare your description of an ammo changeover with how it works for a tube magazine: drop round in empty chamber, close action. That's it. One and maybe two actions depending if you have a round on the carrier or the tube is full or whatever.
I won't get into a big thing with you, just try and understand this... It's not about when the gun is running well and loaded, you're in control, and everything is sunshine and rainbows. It's when things go to shit. When you're empty. Everything is wet. When there is a malfunction on your last round you need to get in, clear it, and get one round off. People look at guns for their best case, don't do that, look at it at the absolute worst possible situation and then discuss how great it is. Example: If the tube was broken or destroyed on an 870 or Benelli, that gun can still run with combat loads. If your mag release, mags, or some similar feeding issue prevents you from using your magazines properly, that gun is out of the fight.
jeanclaudesegal
03-25-13, 17:48
I still want to know about your experiences with the MKA1919, and think they'd fit well with the purpose of this thread.
So last week went out to the clay pigeon range..and of course i had to take off my scope..I put some magpul mbus sights on there..and it performed very well .considering this was the first time i went clay shooting with it..I got 17 out of 25 the first round..second round did 19 out of 25..some were two clays expelled at once and some were single..the rules were i could not open fire more than two round bursts at a time :nono:.. The gun attracted alot of attention..i had a range master come up to me to verify that it was a shotgun i was shooting and not an AR10:o..now its time to take it to my hog lease and see how well it does with the hogs..And not to stir anything up but i do prefer this than the traditional tube fed shotgun..not because it is tacticool but it is easy to handle and get your point of sight on your target..if those of you who are very family with your AR Platform ..this gun should be a breeze for you to handle and adjust to..
jeanclaudesegal,
Thanks for the report. I'm looking forward to trying some clays with the Vepr to see how it differs from the pumps and semis I've used previously. What difference did you notice using rifle sights vs a traditional bead?
I look forward to reading more reports about different types of ammunition and any opportunities you get to run the gun in competition or a shotgun class.
Yep. I get it. You have an answer for everything. Good, I'm glad you're convinced. Please take a shotgun class with your mag fed shotgun and let us know how that goes. 600 rounds of buckshot is a whole lot different than casually plinking weak birdshot loads.
Noodles, I've asked repeatedly for specifics and you haven't provided any.
What exactly are you insinuating I'll find in 600 rounds of buckshot during a class? Please spell it out for me. You have mentioned experience with box fed shotguns in classes, but have withheld that information. I ask again, please enlighten us. Have you run 600 rounds of buckshot through a box magazine-fed shotgun? Until you answer that, most of what you've left here reads as some unsubstantiated theory, Bennelli fanboyism, a large dose of condescension, and a little Bearded Ninja Shotgun Video advertizing thrown in on the side.
As to the rest of your points, show me a combat load on a mag fed gun. ...snip...
Define for me a "combat load." If it's what I think it is, there's no need for it with a detachable mag shotgun.
jeanclaudesegal
03-28-13, 10:42
Shooting the box fed shotgun at flying clays vs your traditional semi auto tube fed shotgun seems a little more challenging at first when you first start out..but after i say maybe 10 rounds or so and you kinda get the feel for it..it becomes a breeze to handle..the mbus sights help alot vs no sights at all..i missed like the first 7 discs because i had to compensate the difference when using your regular bead sights on your standard tube fed shotgun..reloading time on it of course is much better than the tube fed shot gun..with a quick swap out from one mag to another took only maybe a few seconds to lock and load...your vepr 12 should also be a breeze to get acustom to when shooting clay pigeons..i should have taken a video and posted it on youtube..next time i will and post the link here
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