Troy Ambi Safety fit on a Noveske gen II lower with ? [Archive]

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FlexBravo

03-10-13, 23:08

Greetings,
I am trying to determine if a Troy Ambi Safety (http://store.troyind.com/Ambidextrous_Safety_Selector_p/ssaf-amb-f0bt-00.htm) will fit correctly on a Noveske Gen II lower (http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=2807) ?

I've already been in contact with both Troy and Noveske, and neither committed to a definitive answer.

And before I shell out the cash for one I'd like to hear from people who have had it work or not work for them.

Did it need to be modified, does is scrape the lower, work correctly, etc.?

A photo would be great!

thanks

jerrysimons

03-11-13, 10:36

Idk about the Troy Safety but I would recommend the Ambi Noveske STS 60 degree safety. It works great and is only $39.99.
Do you mean you need to find out before you buy the safety or the lower? The lowers are in spec I can't imagine there being an issue with a well made safety...
Edit: Sorry are you looking for full auto specifically? Then I would go with something from BAD.

Ming_the_Merciless

03-11-13, 11:29

FlexBravo

03-11-13, 14:08

The Troy ambi selector + Noveske Gen II lower is a no go. The ambi-selector body, which houses the ball detent, overall length isn't sufficient to clear the side walls on the lower receiver - it's just shy a couple thousandths.

Thanks, exactly what I was looking for. Too bad I prefer the Troy detent model to the screw on types.

I could not find the email from Noveske but I seem to remember them stating that their lower was not milspec (obviously), and Troy stating that their selector only fit milspec lowers. Neither statement told me whether or not it would fit for sure.

Noveske did of course recommend their selector, but I'm not a huge fan of the Magpul plastic/polymer they use. However, I may end up going that route as I know if fits for sure.

Sentaruu

03-11-13, 17:10

that polymer is stronger than you think.

ejskle

03-11-13, 19:10

Understood on the detent/screw preference. If you do end up having to go with something else, the BAD CASS version does use a dovetail, so there's less pressure on the screw.

Nater

03-11-13, 19:31

Understood on the detent/screw preference. If you do end up having to go with something else, the BAD CASS version does use a dovetail, so there's less pressure on the screw.

Another plug for the BAD-CASS. I have a 90 degree version and I like it very much. There is a rather large thread with lots of happy owners. Roger is a stand-up guy to deal with.

Duffy

03-11-13, 20:25

I've taken measurements from Troy selectors, as we do so with every selector we can find so we have as complete a reference table as possible. Troy selectors dimensions are very similar to ours, except the selector center.

Our selector center probably has no equivalent, in that it's slightly longer to accommodate a wide variety of receiver thicknesses. In the earliest days of its development, we tried to design a center that would fit everyone's receiver, while minimizing the gap between the lever and receiver, until we came to the conclusion that it's impossible with the 5.56mm and 7.62 ARs, as the range of thicknesses is rather wide, even within Colt there is a wide margin. With forged receivers, this is I think inevitable, while billet receivers can hold tighter tolerances. But then there are many billet receiver manufacturers, not all of them are within specs, more info here https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=81908

We published the article regarding the gap, as it's an often asked question. Our center's length is based on a Colt SP1 and on the thick side, it works with receivers as thick as 0.910.

Whereas a selector lever would be flush on both sides on a in spec receiver, the gap would be present on thinner receivers. Conversely, this same selector has the potential of binding its levers on thicker receivers.

With the 15-22, as S&W is the only receiver manufacturer for the MP15-22 receiver, so we didn't have to worry about a wide range of thicknesses, and made the levers as flush to the receiver as possible.

Re: Noveske receivers, every one of them we've come across has been right on the money and within milspecs in terms of thickness (tolerances are between 0.878 to .0895, Noveske receivers are right in the middle), so I'm curious as to why the Troy wouldn't work on it? :confused:

The only thing I can think of is that Troy uses a dovetailed design for lever attachment, much like our BAD-CASS series. On the BAD-CASS series (M16, semi auto 90 degree, and semi auto 45 degree, and soon 0-50-18 short throw M16), the center is longer than the BAD-ASS so the dovetail interface will not bind on the receiver.

On the left is the BAD-ASS, on the right is the BAD-CASS (dovetailed), photo courtesy of JConsiglio
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/Duffypoo/SemivsCASS-3P.jpg

Iraqgunz

03-11-13, 21:01

Make this real easy and buy the Battle Arms lever. They work perfectly and I have thousands of rounds through mine on several different AR's.

FlexBravo

03-11-13, 23:22

I have to admit that one of the reasons I passed by the BAD-ASS and the Noveske originally was due to the screws. I imagined them coming loose and falling out in the field so I looked elsewhere and found Troy.

I know there's lock-tite and I'll need to do a bit of homework to see what folks are doing to keep them nice and tight since I may end up going with one. I know there are a bunch of threads on this so I'll go take a look.

RIDE

03-11-13, 23:38

Not even a question.. Get the BAD-CASS (I like the short throws personally).. You won't regret it.

Iraqgunz

03-11-13, 23:44

If you find one example of the screws loosening on the BAD, it's because they didn't Loc-tite the screws. Trust me, I have THOUSANDS of round through my carbines and so do many others and they have never come loose.

I have to admit that one of the reasons I passed by the BAD-ASS and the Noveske originally was due to the screws. I imagined them coming loose and falling out in the field so I looked elsewhere and found Troy.

I know there's lock-tite and I'll need to do a bit of homework to see what folks are doing to keep them nice and tight since I may end up going with one. I know there are a bunch of threads on this so I'll go take a look.

Ming_the_Merciless

03-12-13, 08:42

Noveske receivers, every one of them we've come across has been right on the money and within milspecs in terms of thickness (tolerances are between 0.878 to .0895, Noveske receivers are right in the middle), so I'm curious as to why the Troy wouldn't work on it? :confused:

The only thing I can think of is that Troy uses a dovetailed design for lever attachment, much like our BAD-CASS series. On the BAD-CASS series (M16, semi auto 90 degree, and semi auto 45 degree, and soon 0-50-18 short throw M16), the center is longer than the BAD-ASS so the dovetail interface will not bind on the receiver.

Spot on, while the bottom flanges of Troy ambi-selector levers are flush with the receiver, the dovetail male protrusion on the lever which indexes on the center body isn't - which creates the interference, and dilemma when you actually try to install them.

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/Duffypoo/comp1-2.jpg

I have to admit that one of the reasons I passed by the BAD-ASS and the Noveske originally was due to the screws. I imagined them coming loose and falling out in the field so I looked elsewhere and found Troy.

I know there's lock-tite and I'll need to do a bit of homework to see what folks are doing to keep them nice and tight since I may end up going with one. I know there are a bunch of threads on this so I'll go take a look.

Mr. Murphy visited my doorstep, if it can happen, it will happen. I've had blue Loctite work loose on my ambi-selector, not a BAD, but LMT - so retention method is the same. The way I work the selector makes it more susceptible to working loose. Though I'm right handed, I don't use my thumb to throw the selector back to safe, but use my trigger finger instead. And I work the safety lever constantly, when I am on target or off target. However, even in the eventually it did come off, it's not a show stopper, as the gun would still function. But after couple thousand rounds, it'd work loose, I just hated the slop I felt when coming back to safe, so I stepped up to 272/red thread locker and called it good. So, I wouldn't worry too much about it.

It's up to you, but, just sharing my experience with ambi-selectors, I've used a Stag, KAC, LMT, DPMS, BAD ASS, and Troy. Quality wise, it's hard for me to tell the difference between the latter 4 ambi-selectors, other than LMT has their roll mark on the selector, and the phosphate finish is more grey than black. Functionality wise, the BAD ASS has not only more options, but more positive engagement than the others, while with the other brands it can be a hit or miss, since they don't come with a new selector detent and/or spring, just the selector it self, which warrants why they're slightly more expensive.

Duffy

03-12-13, 10:24

Ming, the inclusion of a high quality detent (stainless steel, KNS), extra screws, detent spring, and the T10 wrench all have their cost, but the cost of these items were not passed down to customers.

The reason ours costs more has to do with its billet construction, use of expensive material and components.

The closest comparable selectors are Troy's and JP's, as they are also billet. Troy's components are all steel, while JP's levers are aluminum, with steel centers. Cast selectors are billet selectors, while they serve the same purpose, they are quite different in price and quality. We realized this early on, so we decided to compete in quality and innovation rather than price point. Competing in price point is a slippery slope, we refuse to go down that path, but you will always find us on the forefront of quality and innovation, there are some projects in the works that will reinforce this further ;)

In terms of quality, I can't comment on others but I can on our own. We're on PIP3 (product improvement program) now, almost all of the changes made since 2010 have to do with compatibility with non-factory components, there had been no change or compromise in material and construction to cut cost. The smooth rotation, positive detent engagement, the longevity of the detent (a wear item), durability, and screws not backing out are not accidents, these characteristics are achieved design goals.

In this area alone we have spent months, with dozens of prototypes, to perfect.
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/Duffypoo/details.jpg

Many of these traits are not easy to tell. In the picture below, there is one visible change you can see. The center flat section is wider on ours, this was incorporated into PIP1 back in 2010 after my conversation with Bill Geissele, we asked for and received his advise re: trigger compatibility. The wider flat section has to do with better compatibility with out of spec receivers which may have problems with the DMR, Service Rifle, etc. triggers that have wide trigger tangs.

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i314/Duffypoo/comp1-2.jpg

Battle Arms Dev. has a life time, unconditional warranty on all BAD manufactured products. That, and the free lever exchange program, along with very high quality components and superb workmanship, don't come cheap, but our customers get what they pay for and a great deal more ;)

RIDE

03-12-13, 10:43

The quality of the BAD selectors is beyond obvious.
Prior to buying my first BAD selector, I really didn't put much thought into selectors. I just used what ever they came with (LMT, DD, etc). I didn't think it was a feature that would be that different from anything else.

I couldn't have been more incorrect. After receiving my first BAD selector I was blown away by the difference. The positive feedback, the steady, solid levers, the the well thought out designs, it's all just amazing for such a small part to make such a huge difference.

And then... The customer service... It's just simply un-matched.. No one in the industry can even touch the level of service that Battle Arms Development has, truly amazing.

With any new build, the BAD-CASS is the first thing I get after the lower itself. No reason to mess with anything else IMO.

Kudo's to B.A.D. for the amazing products and service they provide.

Blak1508

03-12-13, 12:10

I am using some of this quote from the great LAV, but I do not think he would mind...." If your not using a B.A.D A.S.S. or C.A.S.S you need to take a ****ing piss test."

polydeuces

03-12-13, 12:33

By no means knocking the BAD, but for that matter really can't find any fault w. the Noveske/MP ST selector either.

Other than being polymer which is neither good nor bad and a whole different discussion, it is a fine product, is just as reliable and works just as well as the BAD.
One is a bit more limited on "incarnations", but the price is just so nice - if one is looking for that particular set-up.
And at this point I'm just really big on supporting Noveske.

Duffy

03-12-13, 13:29

We're glad Noveske is on board with the short throw concept. We obviously didn't invent the short throw selector, we were just the first company to take it to market successfully.

Due to the selector pointer not lining up with the 12 o'clock FIRE or pictogram engravings on a standard receiver, ours has a "lawyer pin" to bar its use on a standard receiver, and requires a compatible receiver that has the correctly located engraving, and a notch cut on the selector hole which allows the pin to pass through. We don't like it, as it limits compatibility and adds cost, but it's either the lawyer pin, or there wouldn't be a short throw selector as designed.

Noveske's ST selector does not require a ST compatible receiver, as at 60 degrees it points close enough to the FIRE engraving :)

nml

03-12-13, 13:36

BAD offers 1. more lever options and 2. short throw options for those who can want them. $5, 10, 15 price difference with the others I am not going to worry about on a gun that will see $10K worth of ammo through it.

For reference, swapping levers on my cass. It's a bitch to break the set screw loose. Get it out and the loctite and dovetail means the lever will not budge. I had to use a delrin punch and hammer to tap it off the selector...

Blak1508

03-12-13, 14:19

Duffy, lol he said that about Aimpoint Optics, but I feel that it fits in good with your ambi selectors as well. I cannot wait until my lower comes in and I can put the ST on it.

As you said it is nice to see others doing the ST but personally I just favor the BAD ones. I am friends with another individual on here that actually has another brand ambi selector and we both agree that the BAD gives the most positive feedback when selecting, not to mention how great it is to be able to custom the selector that works best for you.

Truthfully I have never used a Troy ambi selector or shot a Rifle with one on, but unless it is someone else's rifle I don't think I ever will.

Duffy

03-12-13, 14:27

Thanks, I thought you might be paraphrasing him so I deleted my comment ;)