Mac vs new Windows 8 [Archive] - M4Carbine.net Forums

WillBrink

03-14-13, 10:20

We have some sharp people here when it comes to comps, so wanted to get some input on this topic.

Rules of the thread: Do NOT turn it into a Mac bashing fest or give "PC rocks" type comments.

If you don't like Mac, exit => thread here

If you use PC with touch screen Windows 8, and or have some relevant and objective info regarding my thread topic below, by all means, add it. :cool:

Onward:

I have been a Mac person since they were sold as Apple Macintosh prior to the 'net existing. That's how far I go back with Mac and to me, Macs were far and away the comp I liked using vs any PC. I'm typing this from a 27" IMac now...

Always liked my Mac's but I have to say, there's less difference than ever between brands now and the extra cost of the Mac getting hard to justify. About the only thing inside a Mac these days that can't be found in other comps is the OS as far as I know.

I was looking at a Samsung lap top yesterday with specs better than the Mac Pro (which costs big $$$ over the Samsung...) , which had the new Windows 8 touch screen OS.

It was very nice. I hate to jump ship on Mac, but the cost differences are now very tough to justify the cost of the Mac pro lap top these days and the Windows 8 touch screen tech = win.

Experiences good and bad with this tech? Thoughts on current Mac comps vs competition?

Right now, the deal breaker for me is I used IMovie a lot for my vids and like it, and know it, and don't wanna learn a new system for making vids.

montrala

03-14-13, 11:51

caelumatra

03-14-13, 12:03

I test drove the Release Candidate of Win8 on a desktop and thought every day that I used it, which was every day for a few months, that it would be well suited for a tablet because of the way the panels and the new start screen as a whole works. If I had the extra cash laying around for a Surface I would have one in a heartbeat.
After using 8 on a desktop for a few months, I feel that Windows 7 is better for a PC and 8 is perfect for a tablet with a super lightweight keyboard, like the Surface.

ETA: Win 8 is pretty much Win 7 with a radically different start screen (I'm sure someone with real expertise can tell me I'm wrong and that'd be fine). I say screen because its not the start button. It takes the whole screen over and is able to run apps from within the screen. Its neat. The traditional desktop is still there, but Windows 8 boots into the start screen. And you sort of launch the desktop as an app from the start screen, but all its really doing is hiding the start screen. You can tell once you get in there the desktop is still the desktop. It still has shortcuts and a taskbar, just no start button. You get to it by going to the very bottom left of the screen and clicking.

I don't like Apple as a company. Their marketing is fantastic but their products are not worth the money. The best thing Apple ever did was adopt x86 processors so they could then dual boot into Windows. Which is funny because Windows still wins in that case lol

Our company IT guy is a fan of Apple so one day we priced 2 laptops just for fun in a fun argument we were having. We checked Dell vs Mac and at the time, we priced a Dell with the same construction and same hardware or better for around half the cost of the Mac. Then you have to worry about most of your software not working on a Mac. This is getting better for Mac users, but the easiest thing is to boot into Windows. And at that point, why would you spend double for a Mac to run windows?

Kyohte

03-14-13, 12:20

I use Windows, Mac, and Linux (Ubuntu & Fedora) all on a daily basis. Windows has been slowly getting their shit together over the past few years, and Windows 8 certainly is a step in the right direction with features like built in encryption (with some versions). However, the GUI is an abortion.

As for touch screens, well, I don't like finger prints all over my screen. They are necessary for tablets and phones, but my screens get dirty enough without my rubbing my dirty hands all over them. I still think I can navigate faster with a command line than I can through a touch screen anyway.

I would stick to the Mac. It has most of the capabilities of a Linux machine but is much more user friendly to the lay person. My recommendation, if you're looking for a laptop to carry around, the Macbook Air is the best. It's lightweight and almost indestructible due to the SSD and aluminum case (mine has been dropped out of my truck more than a few times). I've never missed the lack of an optical drive. If you want a desktop replacement, then the Macbook Pro is a better choice, but to actually get a pro that is significantly "better" than an Air, you have to go up to the higher-end ones.

Any Windows machine I build gets set-up to dual-boot Ubuntu, and only runs Windows when I really need to (basically for games only).

Kyohte

03-14-13, 12:30

I don't like Apple as a company. Their marketing is fantastic but their products are not worth the money. The best thing Apple ever did was adopt x86 processors so they could then dual boot into Windows. Which is funny because Windows still wins in that case lol

Our company IT guy is a fan of Apple so one day we priced 2 laptops just for fun in a fun argument we were having. We checked Dell vs Mac and at the time, we priced a Dell with the same construction and same hardware or better for around half the cost of the Mac. Then you have to worry about most of your software not working on a Mac. This is getting better for Mac users, but the easiest thing is to boot into Windows. And at that point, why would you spend double for a Mac to run windows?

Apple as a company is terrible and Steve Jobs was a fascist when it came to how he wanted to design computers. That being said, the construction and integration of Apple's hardware with it's software is second-to-none. With a Windows or Linux machine you get a Frankenstein computer, which allows for better performance if you put it together yourself, but the quality of the parts that most big name brand computers use is terrible for the price they charge. Remember the hardware "specs" are one thing, but the quality of components is another. For example saying "This computer has X amount of RAM and X amount of hard drive space." is the equivalent of saying a rifle has a 16" barrel chrome lined barrel. Do you know anything about the construction or quality of materials that went into the barrel? Same with the computer. I'm not saying Apple uses super-high-end parts, but Apple hardware has failed much less than hardware designed to be universal (Windows/Linux), even from good, reputable companies.

In my field, the software problem is reversed. Most runs on Linux (and therefore usually Mac), and either runs poorly, or not at all on Windows. Also, even without dual-boot there are ways to get Windows software to run on a Mac or Linux machine.

DarrinD2

03-14-13, 12:32

I have a PC with Win8 and a MacBook Pro. It's probably enough to say that my kids got the PC and I took the Mac. I like the Mac because the OS can't be beat, it still has better security and better reliability. It's tightly integrated with the components inside which, unlike PC's, are all new. Most PC's use refurbished components like hard drives and stuff like that. I think the PC with Win7 is better so I modified our PC to boot into that instead of Win 8. If money is a big factor you can find a PC that will meet your basic needs, but if you want a better computer Mac's are still on top. Good luck.
Macfanboy, Darrin

Belmont31R

03-14-13, 12:39

I just bought a Retina MBP yesterday, and it's my first personally owned Mac. I used them in school but that was over 10 years ago.

I was using a Samsung (non-touch) Series 9 15" which came with W7 and I loaded W8 onto it.

I have used touch W8, and that is really what W8 was designed to be used with. Non touch laptops or desktops aren't just as good of a user experience.

I do think W8 is a big step in the right direction but it fails because the Start Screen is basically just Windows RT (tablet OS) mated with a dumbed down W7 desktop OS (no start menu). There are some performance and UI improvements in the desktop mode and it does look better to me than W7 with more functionality in Windows Explorer.

I ended up not liking the whole experience because I can't stand jumping back and forth between the two OS's, and there are redundant programs. You can click the Internet Explorer tile on the Start Menu, and it brings up the RT IE version which is a dumbed down browser that is slow. To use the full IE you have to go to the desktop. I don't get why I need multiple versions of several programs. I primarily use Chrome, and there is a Google Search tile for the Start Menu. That would be good for a tablet that can't run a full desktop version of a program. You can put shortcut tiles on the Start Menu, and that takes you to the desktop. In the end you don't really know if you're going to jump to an RT version or a desktop version. It really is like having two OS's running together. Theres two ways to a do a lot of things. You can go to Windows Update from the charms bar or through the desktop via Control Panel, and the UI is completely different.

With regards to hardware the PC guys are catching up in build quality but that's because a lot of them are simply copying Apple. We have a place here in Austin called The Domain, and it's basically an outdoor mall with apartments/condos above the stores. There's an Apple Store, and a Microsoft Store. MS copied Apple's design theme, and MS sells various brands of PC's there, Windows Phone's, tablets, ect. All the laptops they had on display are copies of Mac's with the silver aluminum build with the black around the screen.

And I would not say the cost is really that different. My Samsung cost $1399, you can get a MBA or 13" Retina MBP for about that. If you look at a 'like for like' comparison, say something like an Asus UX51 which is their top of line PC comparable to a Mac it's not much cheaper than a Retina MBP, and doesn't have as good of a screen even though its still 1080P. The Google Pixel is the only competing product that has good of a screen as a Retina, and that thing is a joke as its a web based browser with no other functionality.

One other thing I've learned over the years of using other Apple products is I really like having a store to go if something breaks, and they are usually very helpful. They gave my wife a new iPhone after she went in there expecting to buy a new one after she gave hers a bath on accident. They just handed her a new one, and said don't wash this one. A lot of these other brands are foreign owned, and you have to mail your hardware in. I've not heard good things about some other company's support. My BIL works for Apple's CS department here in Austin. They hire Americans you can call when you have a problem. I've called MS a few times, and get Indians I can hardly understand. I think a bit of a premium to get MUCH better support is worth it these days.

If you were going to jump to W8 I would look at one of the convertable's like the Lenovo Yoga. I'm not sold on the functionality of a touch screen in a traditional laptop form factor. Or something like the Surface RT or Pro (pro runs x86 desktop apps RT does not) with a keyboard you can attach and detach I needed. I would not buy a traditionally setup laptop with W8 on it...saying that after using one for months now. You will have a lot better user experience when you can use the tablet OS Start Screen like you have a tablet in your hands. That means some sort of convertable or a tablet to begin with.

Honu

03-14-13, 12:43

Try them out make sure you can return it might be best to try for extended outlet :)

Specs on paper are one thing reality is another

While a bmw vs a hyundai might be the same specs they wont feel the same ? If the Kia had better specs on paper would it be the better machine ?

Not sure I would want some frankengun with specs from the lowest quality stuff vs the same from a quality builder

Unless you are really pushing a machine most computers will do what folks need with no issues :)

Often comes down to you a win user or OS X user ?
Most hardcore win users are rolling back or stuck to 7

Honu

03-14-13, 13:06

If you want a Win based laptop and touch screen I would look at the Lenovo models and the one that has that built in wacom digitizer/screen setup
Those seem to be pretty cool and kinda create a computer you can use like a tablet or input with pen

KTR03

03-14-13, 13:26

So we are a mac family at home (phones, ipads, macs). At work I am a Windows user. I have a ASUS laptop and a Surface. I like them both.

I will say that if I had a windows 7 PC, I wouldn't upgrade to Win 8. I had to upgrade my Win 7 laptop to Win 8 and it was a tough UI. With a touch screen, its a totally different UI Very easy to use. The ASUS has an excellent screen that doesn't seem to show fingerprints at all.
The chief advantage of the Mac platforms at this stage is ITunes, and the extensive app catalogue. The Win 8 Marketplace is growing quickly, but it still doesn't have the critical mass of developers yet, although the more people buy them the more apps there will be.

Damien

chadbag

03-14-13, 14:07

It's about the OS, not the HW.

Use the OS that works for you.

--

WillBrink

03-14-13, 16:36

It's about the OS, not the HW.

Use the OS that works for you.

--

I'm a Mac guy at heart to be sure, but I admit the cost differences got even my attention. I have been traveling a fair amount, so the 27" IMac I have sits in my office going un used for months and I'm using my older Mac lap top with minimal hard drive space and small screen when traveling, and that's getting problematic.

Considering a consolidation to one higher end lap top (15" likely) and before I drop the $$$ on the higher end Mac Book Pro (after selling the Imac desk top) I wanted to at least see what the latest options are.

I know and like the OS of Macs, but did enjoy the Windows 8 touch screen set up.

R0N

03-14-13, 17:48

Without a touch screen I would avoid W8.

The system interprets finger movement across the touch pad as if they were touch screen inputs; so as you move you finger it will often change screens.

Belmont31R

03-14-13, 19:11

Without a touch screen I would avoid W8.

The system interprets finger movement across the touch pad as if they were touch screen inputs; so as you move you finger it will often change screens.

I disabled that.

chadbag

03-15-13, 02:01

I'm a Mac guy at heart to be sure, but I admit the cost differences got even my attention.

Give me some real numbers and real example machines in both camps you have been looking at. (I am not disputing that cost differences exist -- I'd just like to see what you are comparing).

(also remember, you will probably use it for 2-5 years -- if the cost difference is $500, and you use it for 5 years, that equates to about 27 cents a day to not have to use Windows ;) if you only use it for 2.5 years, that comes to a little over 50 cents a day to not have to use Windows! Well worth it in my opinion ;) )

Honu

03-15-13, 02:38

one thing often you can sell a used mac for the difference in the price and end up in the same spot as you would have been

try to sell a 3-4 year old PC :) hahaahha
3-4 year old macs can still fetch a few bucks mac pros a decent amount

and comparing a cheap crap PC to a mac is like saying I can buy a AR15 for way less than that Noveske as example :)
heck bubba got one of them for $1100 new and the guy said its all mil spec and exactly like the gun they used to shoot osama with cause a mil spec gun is just that !

a Mac Pro is not expensive when you compare it to a workstation from Dell or HP ! Xeon workstations are not cheap ! and sometimes the Dell ends up being more specd the same !

the iMac you get a pretty decent monitor about the same as the Dell 27 XP or whatever that is usually around $1000 sometimes $900 on sale and with the new one being profiled and such maybe a touch better than the Dell so count that $1000

now their is a pro con to built in monitor for sure ! but again PRO and CON so one is not better than the other just a dif choice !

the mac mini is a cool setup not for gaming (or photo video use no GPU) but great setup and does not draw a lot of power and is quiet etc..

look who is on top most the time for laptops and happy customers would they buy again and reliability and its apple :)

even when I worked for HP as one of their head technology guys I used special built HP units or Apple :)

do you want a Bushmaster or some other really nice rifle like Noveske or BCM, KAC etc.. ;)

also look at some of the refurb stuff they have and get apple care ? 3 years no worries at all :)
previous models were still kick butt machines

I'm a Mac guy at heart to be sure, but I admit the cost differences got even my attention. I have been traveling a fair amount, so the 27" IMac I have sits in my office going un used for months and I'm using my older Mac lap top with minimal hard drive space and small screen when traveling, and that's getting problematic.

Considering a consolidation to one higher end lap top (15" likely) and before I drop the $$$ on the higher end Mac Book Pro (after selling the Imac desk top) I wanted to at least see what the latest options are.

I know and like the OS of Macs, but did enjoy the Windows 8 touch screen set up.

Waylander

03-15-13, 14:41

Touch screen only works for me on a phone or tablet (I prefer Android on both) and I don't care for the live tile design of Win8. The Android UI resembles the MS desktop until Win8 and it still works fine for me. I personally would get tired of having to reach to touch the screen on a laptop then transition back to the keyboard or touch-pad/mouse and so on. Microsoft really messed up IMO when they didn't allow you to disable the tiled start screen.

There's a small free app download to re-enable the start button so that's a good compromise to me, otherwise I still advise people to try to find laptops even cheaper with Windows 7. Windows 7 is still great. There aren't many improvements from 7 to 8 AFAIK.

I develop software some on a Mac mini for the iPad and iPhone and it's a good machine for what I do. I can't speak for their laptops or typical user needs so Chad is right, use the software that works for you especially if you don't want to lose iMovie.

Another option is to dual boot between Windows and OS X. You could possibly buy a more basic version of Windows on the cheap depending on what features you need. The downside is you've still spent major cash on the Mac then on top of that buying a copy of Windows.

The cheapest and best compromise to me if you want both OS is to buy a Windows PC with plenty of RAM for much less, get a copy of OS X which is much cheaper than Windows, install Oracle Virtual Box, then run OS X in a virtual machine on your Windows PC. You don't have the expensive Mac hardware to deal with.

http://lifehacker.com/5583650/run-mac-os-x-in-virtualbox-on-windows

Most PC brands have become a lot more reliable from a hardware and software standpoint in the last few years.
As long as you have good antivirus/anti-malware software and don't look at too many porn sites that are shady you're GTG :D

zacbol

03-15-13, 21:25

TehLlama

03-15-13, 21:32

Windows 8 appears to be very good system. I believe that actually Mac users can find it easier to jump Win8 that seasoned Win users. Win8 is not next evolution (like Win 3.11>95>98>Me>XP>Vista>7) but it it whole new concept of user interaction. As Mac user, you will only need to learn new system. Win users are entrapped into un-learning old Windows - not easy process.

That's pretty much it - under the hood it's 7, but to actually use it I might as well learn MacOS - even though Win8 is decent as an OS, this is the first time I've ever seriously looked at Mac for non-gaming uses just because it is so different.

Belmont31R

03-15-13, 21:34

I have a Lenovo X1 Carbon Touch at work running Win 8 and recently got a 128 GB Surface Pro. I think Win 8 is a solid OS and using the Surface Pro especially makes me feel like I'm on Star Trek or something.

That said, if you've been on Mac a long time and have an investment in the ecosystem, I'd stick with it personally. As others point out, the price difference amortized over a few years is pretty negligible.

I thought this editorial on Win 8 mirrored my feelings:
http://betanews.com/2013/03/05/how-i-came-to-love-windows-again/

I agree and disagree with that author's points. W8 is a big step up for MS but falls short, and I don't think its intuitive because you are basically running two OS's at once, and with multiple ways to do the same thing with different UI's.

The next step up to combine both will be a lot better, and as touch screens get better and people learn to interact that way.

ramairthree

03-15-13, 22:24

Due to a recent hard drive failure I got a new PC.
I started using DOS based PCs well over 20 years ago,
and Windows by 94.

I have always worked where Windows/PCs are used.

I have always had a lap top or desk top in Windows.

I never went the Mac route because I did not want to learn a new system.

So I ate years of viruses, malware, and blue screens of death my wife does not in her Mac world.

My new desktop has Windows 8.
I think this system would be fine on a pad/touch screen.
But all I use a touch screen/pad for is to dick around watching movies, reading email, etc.
For real work I use a docked lap top or desk top with mouse and key board.

Windows 8 is horrible for this. It is so bad, myself and some others that recently got it are actually talking about getting Macs for home.

They have hosed who knows how many people that will now have a home Windows system that is nothing like their work Windows system, and I know of no large company that would be willing to eat the ass pain of converting everyone to Windows 8.

I think it is a failure for work based systems.
I would fire the guy that designed it.

currahee

03-15-13, 22:50

I've used every iteration of windows since 3.11 and DOS before that. I have used apple since the IIE and the little Macintosh, and I can say that I don't really understand any gripe about an OS, I regularly flow between them since the beginning (with the exception of DOS of course, that required some training.) My home comp for the last six years was a iMAC running an early OSX. I just replaced it with a Dell desktop running WIN 8. I replaced it primarily because the monitor was giving out and I was going to have to update to a new OS, wasn't reading a lot of java anymore and a lot of littel ticky issues that we not deal breakers by themselves.

My main reason for picking a PC was cost, that I'm simply not going to have another "all in one" computer.

Win 8 is the most noticeably different OS I have ever seen and I have to think to do a few things (or at least I did for a couple of hours.) I can see it's appeal for a touch screen, but a touch screen does not fit my style. A lot of the touch screen specific things I am tuning out. Pretty much go straight past the start screen to the desktop and start stuff with a mouse. I guess I'm hopelessly old school.

There are a couple of things I didn't like and a couple of aspects of dealing with Microsoft I don't like, but all in all it's just another OS.

My computer needs are relatively simple. I word process, I write some fairly complex spreadsheets but all of that is dealing with Office, I would actually prefer it was still Microsoft works that came with my original 3.11 machine. I could do 90% of what I do now a whole lot simpler. Of course I manage files pics and make the occasional video- file management is the same as anything, switching between the MAC movie maker and the WIN movie maker takes a bit of work.

ccosby

03-16-13, 11:32

Anyway up to you. I work with everything from an as/400 running system 36 to linux systems(debain, red hate enterprise, etc), apples(phones to servers), everything windows, and unix systems running power processors.

Personally I like my 13 inch mbp(current gen i7) but don't like where they are going with them. I'd prob get the windows system and save some money. Really comes down to what you do with it and what software you need to run though.

Without a touch screen I would avoid W8.

The system interprets finger movement across the touch pad as if they were touch screen inputs; so as you move you finger it will often change screens.

You can always use something like classic shell which pretty much makes it like windows 7. Most of my clients that have deployed windows 8 systems have done this.

WillBrink

03-16-13, 15:56

If anyone is interested:

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=1582454#post1582454

This discussion has made me decide on a 15" Mac Pro lap top which will be my main comp. I tend to have a lot of stuff open and or run memory intensive stuff editing HD vids in Imovie, etc. so the lap top I get has to have the horse power to do that.

The desk top I have (see link above) is great for all that but can't travel with it, and the old mac lap top with limited memory etc, really only good for web basic stuff, and thus, one comp to cover my needs appears to be the next step. :cool:

WillBrink

04-05-13, 15:54

Follow up: ended up getting a Mac Book Pro 15" with retina display. It's a true joy to use, and now I have to pay for the bitch. :eek:

Peshawar

04-05-13, 16:02

I gave up on PC's in 1998 or so. Haven't looked back. Partly because the program I use every day (Pro Tools) is best on the Mac platform, and partly because I find the OS far more intuitive than Windows. It just works "how you would think it should", for lack of a better way of explaining it.

Armati

04-05-13, 16:38

Just two cents here:

I work with a collection of cats - from knuckle dragging door kickers to cyber security nerds who hack cell phone towers as a hobby.

It is my observation that Mac is pretty fire-and-forget for the average user. All products are integrated and they are deep into cloud computing.

PC is cheap but seems to require CONSTANT maintenance. Malware abounds and in my 30 years or so using PCs, it seems like I am always living in a bad cyber neighborhood. Someone is always trying to break in and steal your shit.

Linux is the heat if you are inclined to learn it, build your own PC, and like to tinker on this sort of stuff. Think of it as building up your M4 from individual parts. Most people just want to buy a gun and go shooting.

I had a large HP touch screen (Touchsmart 600?). Mostly the kids used it. I didn't really see much benefit on trying to push buttons on such a large screen. Touch screen for a smart phone or tablet makes sense but the ergonomics are all wrong for a desktop.

Right now as an experiment I am using a Chromebook. I am going to see where this Chrome OS thing goes. I like it because it is pretty bulletproof and simple. There is no maintenance because Google pushes all of the updates and, as yet, no malware or serious security issues. I like the GUI.

Peshawar

04-05-13, 16:56

So, is the Mac the AK and the PC the AR? :)

Hmac

04-05-13, 17:06

So, is the Mac the AK and the PC the AR? :)

Mac is the HK, PC is the Glock.:)

Gutshot John

04-05-13, 17:15

Mac and OSX quality has declined notably in the past 10 years that I've been using their product.

Microsoft and Windows has improved notably in the past 10 years.

My Macintosh requires at least the same, if not more, maintenance than my PCs.

Apple's security advantage has likewise gone significantly down. The notion that you can't get a virus on a mac, often repeated 10 years ago, is nowhere to be found these days. If you use some basic security precautions (don't use your computer as an admin), Windows security is comparable to Apple with appropriate AV.

The quality differential is really not worth the cost, without factoring in other things (job, graphics etc.) and unless you have a need to be in Apple (lots of itunes purchases for that matter).

If you're reasonably technically competent, and don't mind learning some basic linux commands, I'd seriously consider a linux distribution like Ubuntu. It will breathe a lot of life in older intel boxes, and is the arguably the most cost effective and stable OS out there. I've come across machines with uptimes of a better part of a decade.

skydivr

04-05-13, 17:24

Win8 actually starts about 2x as fast as Win7. If you were a Mac user, the interface probably actually prefers you vs. Win7 Users. However, there are programs out there that remove the Metro screen so you get the better load time while still keeping the standard interface that people have been using since win95...

Hmac

04-05-13, 17:46

Mac and OSX quality has declined notably in the past 10 years that I've been using their product.

Microsoft and Windows has improved notably in the past 10 years.

My Macintosh requires at least the same, if not more, maintenance than my PCs.

Apple's security advantage has likewise gone significantly down. The notion that you can't get a virus on a mac, often repeated 10 years ago, is nowhere to be found these days. If you use some basic security precautions (don't use your computer as an admin), Windows security is comparable to Apple with appropriate AV.

The quality differential is really not worth the cost, without factoring in other things (job, graphics etc.) and unless you have a need to be in Apple (lots of itunes purchases for that matter).

I use both platforms on a daily basis (I run both OSX and Windows 7 on my Mac) and while I agree that Windows is better than it used to be (Windows 7, anyway, and I don't have any experience with Windows 8) I haven't found any quality degradation at all in OSX. As to security...I still have to run virus software on Windows. I've never run any virus software whatosever on my Mac in 10 years, nor have I needed it (and I run it as Admin). If we're talking anecdotes here, that's mine.

Gutshot John

04-05-13, 18:48

I use both platforms on a daily basis (I run both OSX and Windows 7 on my Mac) and while I agree that Windows is better than it used to be (Windows 7, anyway, and I don't have any experience with Windows 8) I haven't found any quality degradation at all in OSX. As to security...I still have to run virus software on Windows. I've never run any virus software whatosever on my Mac in 10 years, nor have I needed it (and I run it as Admin). If we're talking anecdotes here, that's mine.

Dude I've owned Macs for over a decade. I'm typing this on a Mac, but I'm tired of drinking the Kool-aid.

I run all of the above in my job. I see a lot more systems than most admins do as I work for a variety of companies as tech consultants. Windows/Linux remains far and away the most commonly used systems because far and away they are the most cost effective for most uses.

AV:You never run virus software on Mac in 10 years? Ok, you're lucky. I've seen plenty of Mac viruses but hey, your system, your call. I know a lot of Mac gurus that do. Sure, you run least privilege so that's cool, but that problem goes away if you don't run on your admin login as do most Windows issues. As an infosec professional, Mac is an extreme rarity, and the overwhelming stated preference is for Windows/Linux based tools.

Stability: 5 years ago I used to laugh at BSOD, as it was a not un-common experience. Now it is far less common than the spinning beachball of doom. Windows 7 works great for most users. I've not had a deep dive into 8, but I think it's a game changer from what I've heard, especially with the bullshit apple lawsuits out there. It should be noted that Linus Torvald is now leading the development of Windows 9.

OSX hasn't been the same since Lion, it certainly isn't the same as it was when OSX was introduced.

Longevity: My experience varies significantly from years. The durability and longevity is also not the same. I used a powerbook G4 for the better part of a decade, even when I bought new machines. At best I got 3 years of practical use out of them.

I've had two MBPros in the last 4 years with logic boards go tits up spontaneously, Apple replaced one of them, but the other was barely over 2 years old. Fair enough, out of warranty, but they aren't the same quality as they used to be and I still think it's kind of bullshit. 2.2 years on a $2k computer? **** that.

My gaming PC is 5 years old, and still plays brand new releases with pretty remarkable quality and stability. I have about $1200 in that system.

Sorry they might technically be superior, but is that worth the premium?

Nope.

chadbag

04-05-13, 19:01

Dude I've owned Macs for over a decade. I'm typing this on a Mac, but I'm tired of drinking the Kool-aid.

I run all of the above in my job. I see a lot more systems than most admins do as I work for a variety of companies as tech consultants. Windows/Linux remains far and away the most commonly used systems because far and away they are the most cost effective for most uses.

AV:You never run virus software on Mac in 10 years? Ok, you're lucky. I've seen plenty of Mac viruses but hey, your system, your call. I know a lot of Mac gurus that do. Sure, you run least privilege so that's cool, but that problem goes away if you don't run on your admin login as do most Windows issues. As an infosec professional, Mac is an extreme rarity, and the overwhelming stated preference is for Windows/Linux based tools.

Stability: 5 years ago I used to laugh at BSOD, as it was a not un-common experience. Now it is far less common than the spinning beachball of doom.

Windows stability is a lot better than it used to be. But I RARELY get a spinning pizzawheel of doom (beachball) on OS X. They are usually related to I/O timeouts btw. They do happen, but should not be more than rare.

Windows 7 works great for most users. I've not had a deep dive into 8, but I think it's a game changer from what I've heard, especially with the bullshit apple lawsuits out there.

what BS lawsuits? Do you mean the ones to protect their IP? Bow is that BS? (start another thread if you want to discuss)

You do realize that Apple is the most sued tech company in the world.

It should be noted that Linus Torvald is now leading the development of Windows 9.

I'd go check the date on that news release you read...

OSX hasn't been the same since Lion, it certainly isn't the same as it was when OSX was introduced.

Yes, it is much better now.

Longevity: My experience varies significantly from years. The durability and longevity is also not the same. I used a powerbook G4 for the better part of a decade, even when I bought new machines. At best I got 3 years of practical use out of them.

I've had two MBPros in the last 4 years with logic boards go tits up spontaneously, Apple replaced one of them, but the other was barely over 2 years old. Fair enough, out of warranty, but they aren't the same quality as they used to be and I still think it's kind of bullshit. 2.2 years on a $2k computer? **** that.

Too bad. All my Macs are working great, get daily use, and the newest one is from Nov 2008.

(Well, maybe one of the minis is Spring 2009)

My main machine -- the one I make money on and use for hours a day -- in a 2008 Mac Pro tower I got in mid 2008. I have replaced some disks with SSDs for performance reasons and the graphics card that came with it did go tit's up finally last year, though I think it may have been user-induced thermal fatigue since it had a billion inches of dust on it as I had not opened the machine in a long time due to its awkward positioning.

My gaming PC is 5 years old, and still plays brand new releases with pretty remarkable quality and stability. I have about $1200 in that system.

Sorry they might technically be superior, but is that worth the premium?

Nope.

Approximately equivalent PC hardware from name brand PC manufacturers is approximately the same cost as the equivalent Apple machine. In most cases, there is not an equivalent PC to the Apple because most PC manufacturers have raced to the bottom of the barrel

You can build your own PC a lot cheaper, but that is not a reasonable comparison.

--

Belmont31R

04-05-13, 19:05

Apple is just a much better experience for the user. After the buy support for PC's sucks. I have overhead people calling Dell with business class products and get hung up on or told they its a Windows issue. For the consumer having one company making the OS and hardware with a good CS track record is a lot better than the non-support you will get with a PC.

The security issues with both both OS's are because people are stupid. I had a friend ask me for help on his machine and the thing was so chock full of malware I couldn't believe it. People will click on anything and almost all security problems are because people are stupid. All I run is Malwarebytes and the stock MS scanner on our Win 8 pc and haven't had jack in years.

People are still sending money to West African email scammers. You can't create a program for those people besides taking their internet access away.

chadbag

04-05-13, 19:06

The quality differential is really not worth the cost, without factoring in other things (job, graphics etc.) and unless you have a need to be in Apple (lots of itunes purchases for that matter).

Or no desire to run clunky windows. It is not the HW, it is the software.

There is personal preference involved of course, but I have Win 7 installed on my Mac Pro through bootcamp and cannot believe how clunky it is in comparison.

If you're reasonably technically competent, and don't mind learning some basic linux commands, I'd seriously consider a linux distribution like Ubuntu. It will breathe a lot of life in older intel boxes, and is the arguably the most cost effective and stable OS out there. I've come across machines with uptimes of a better part of a decade.

Any machine that has not been rebooted in years will be lacking in security updates, and Linux is no more secure than OS X unless you turn off networking completely. If you look at the various places that track security issues, there are a LOT of them that affect Linux.

My Macs only get rebooted when I do SW update or need to move things. They are rarely rebooted for any other reason.

(The same could probably be said of Win7 now -- MS has made very good effort with their stability and security)

--

Hmac

04-05-13, 19:24

Gutshot John

04-05-13, 19:36

Or no desire to run clunky windows. It is not the HW, it is the software.

There is personal preference involved of course, but I have Win 7 installed on my Mac Pro through bootcamp and cannot believe how clunky it is in comparison.

Boot time on Win 7 isn't the fastest, but it is stable and it can be more than adequately secured. Typically it runs far fewer services than previous windows or OSX. I'm not saying OSX is unstable, I'm not talking absolutes. I'm talking a cost-benefit ratio of buying a windows vs. OSX machine. OSX is significantly less stable than it used to be, and Windows is significantly more stable than it used to be. That you can buy a thin windows netbook for about $400, 1/3 the price of a macbook air. Is it 3x "better"? Nope.

Any machine that has not been rebooted in years will be lacking in security updates, and Linux is no more secure than OS X unless you turn off networking completely. If you look at the various places that track security issues, there are a LOT of them that affect Linux.

Yep, and increasingly this is true for OSX as well. The difference is that Linux has a whole community of developers who fix patches (for free) and publicly release them (for free) at a pace that blows the doors off either Microsoft or Apple.

Linux machines are often used for processes that require great stability. In this case yes the system wasn't networked, but that's still pretty impressive.

My Macs only get rebooted when I do SW update or need to move things. They are rarely rebooted for any other reason.

Your system, your call.

As for protecting IP, sure, I understand that, but it's a pretty significant abuse of the patent system. Unless you really believe Apple should be the only manufacturer of smartphones out there?

The jury decided poorly.

All of this is besides the fact that the "Apple Experience" which used to be part of the premium has virtually disappeared. Their products aren't nearly as innovative, and they've bungled more than a few products and business decisions.

An apple user walks into a bar...or a restaurant, or a cafe...he's not really sure. :)

That said I prefer to let the wonder twins speak for themselves.

Jobs v. Gates (http://epicrapbattlesofhistory.com/videos/steve-jobs-vs-bill-gates-epic-rap-battles-of-history-season-2,njos57IJf-0/vote/)

chadbag

04-05-13, 19:45

Win 7 isn't the fastest, but it is stable and it can be more than adequately secured. OSX

No argument there.

Yep, and increasingly this is true for OSX as well. The difference is that Linux has a whole community of developers who fix patches (for free) and publicly release them (for free) at a pace that blows the doors off either Microsoft or Apple.

Most of the issues that affect OS X are the same sort that affect Linux. That is, issues in Open Source software that Apple includes or uses in the system. 9(

Note that I did not say ALL the issues. There are issues in Apple specific software as well.

Linux machines are often used for processes that require great stability. In this case yes the system wasn't networked, but that's still pretty impressive.

I'd rather use (and do use) FreeBSD and/or Solaris (in the guise of one of the forked versions based on OpenSolaris).

Much more stable than Linux and in terms of Solaris at least, with much more capability.

Your system, your call.

As for protecting IP, sure, I understand that, but it's a pretty significant abuse of the patent system. Unless you really believe Apple should be the only manufacturer of smartphones out there?

The jury decided poorly.

It is no abuse of the patent system and it just shows your ignorance of what the actual issues were.

The issues were not "rounded corners" btw. That was Samsung FUD.

Released Samsung documents even show that Samsung knew they were copying Apple. Their internal documents admitted it.

Apples patents don't prevent anyone from making a smartphone. They just prevent it from copying the iPhone, which is basically what Samsung had done. (and at least with earlier versions of Android, what Android had done -- Google did not invent Android, they bought it, and before the iPhone it looked nothing like what it was changed to look like after the iPhone came out, which was to try and copy the iPhone experience.

All of this is besides the fact that the "Apple Experience" which used to be part of the premium has virtually disappeared. Their products aren't nearly as innovative, and they've bungled more than a few products and business decisions.

In your opinion.

The "Apple Experience" in the opinion of the market says otherwise: Apple has mostly been growing their share including the PC share while Windows and Windows box makers have been losing.

There are still plenty of "switchers" out there and more and more people are coming to the Mac through their iPhone and iPad experience.

No company is perfect and they all make poor decisions from time to time. Apple has just made a lot fewer of them than Microsoft or Google has the last few years.

An apple user walks into a bar...or a restaurant, or a cafe...he's not really sure. :)

That said I prefer to let the wonder twins speak for themselves.

Jobs v. Gates (http://epicrapbattlesofhistory.com/videos/steve-jobs-vs-bill-gates-epic-rap-battles-of-history-season-2,njos57IJf-0/vote/)

Gutshot John

04-05-13, 19:58

Dude, I appreciate your experience. I just don't agree with it, using them even longer than you have.

I appreciate yours as well, but I really wasn't trying to compare credentials. You mentioned being an admin, I wanted to assure you that I knew a little bit about what I'm speaking about. I get paid pretty well for it but I certainly don't feel that my opinion is what counts. There are lots of people that know a lot more than me.

We also come from very different technical arenas. There are lots of people I know, PhDs in Computer Science/Infosec research labs, with more experience than you (or me) that would agree with my assessment.

Gutshot John

04-05-13, 20:10

Most of the issues that affect OS X are the same sort that affect Linux.

Meh not so much. Linux doesn't have that many issues. You think of open source as somehow more vulnerable because its open source? Interesting. My experience has been the opposite.

Much more stable than Linux and in terms of Solaris at least, with much more capability.

I don't entirely disagree, but it's not very common.

It is no abuse of the patent system and it just shows your ignorance of what the actual issues were.

Hah if you say so. I guess it shows your ignorance of the Motorola case. User experience patent my ass.

The issues were not "rounded corners" btw. That was Samsung FUD.

See above.

In your opinion.

The "Apple Experience" in the opinion of the market says otherwise: Apple has mostly been growing their share including the PC share while Windows and Windows box makers have been losing.

Guess you haven't seen recent iPhone sales figures.

Apple has largely ignored the laptop innovation in recent years, focusing its innovation on mobile technology.

Apple was a great product when they were made in the US, not so much now that they're made in sweat shops in China.

Worked for a while, with Windows 8, they better start finding some innovation if they want that "apple experience" to keep its cachet. You don't make essentially the same product you made 5 years ago, change its color and shape, and call yourself an innovator.

Belmont31R

04-05-13, 20:11

Aside from the Chromebook Pixel which is a joke no other laptop comes close in resolution to the Retina.

Hardware....theres not a lot of differences these days but the PC guys just copy Apple. Go to an Apple store and then a MS store. MS displays copies of Apple laptops. Once Apple came out with the AL laptops it was Asus and Acer and others copying them. Don't innovate? How any Android tablets are there now?

The PC/Android world has not nearly had the same innovation despite consisting of dozens of companies and vendors. The difference is Apple may not have entirely NEW ideas but they figure out how to sell ideas no one could, and then the rest follow en masse with product after product to where they have at least 20:1 the amount of models yet still can't compete on a 1 to 1 basis. The tablet was around before the iPad but no one did it well enough to bite. The smart phone was around before the iPhone but no one did it well enough to have the success of the iPhone. There are dozens of laptop models to every one Mac model yet PC sales are going down and Mac's are going up.

And at the end of the day you won't find a mainline software/hardware company who takes care of their customers as well as Apple. That goes a long way, and is worth the premium.

Gutshot John

04-05-13, 20:24

And at the end of the day you won't find a mainline software/hardware company who takes care of their customers as well as Apple. That goes a long way, and is worth the premium.

Really? How many logic boards have you had replaced? Fair enough, if you're someone who isn't hugely tech savvy, the premium might be worth the cost, if you buy Applecare (another $250 to the price of a MacBook), and support/teaching options (another $150). I paid $2500 for new retina display laptop (in august) , and the Applecare etc, and you're talking close to $3k. 3x the cost of a comparable Windows machine. Is the Apple worth 3x the money? Not so much anymore.

I'm not saying they don't make a better product. I'm saying that it isn't that much better, especially since the more technologically capable you are, the greater the opportunity costs involved.

chadbag

04-05-13, 20:26

Meh not so much. Linux doesn't have that many issues. You think of open source as somehow more vulnerable because its open source? Interesting. My experience has been the opposite.

I never said that.

What I said is that most of the security alerts you get out there for OS X are the same ones you get for Linux since OS X uses and includes a lot of open source software in it.

(And in fact, the OS X kernel is also open source = Darwin)

I don't entirely disagree, but it's not very common.

...

Hah if you say so. I guess it shows your ignorance of the Motorola case. User experience patent my ass.

Which of the motorola cases?

See above.

Guess you haven't seen recent iPhone sales figures.

Please enlighten us. The iPhone was last updated in September. It always has lower numbers this time of year.

And I guess you missed this one on Apple extending lead over Samsung and gains on Google (Android) in the US market.

http://appleinsider.com/articles/13/04/04/apple-extends-lead-over-samsung-gains-on-google-in-us-smartphone-market

And if you look at true smartphones, not low end feature phone replacements that run Android, the iOS share is much larger and Android is not the behemoth people think it is. Since most of these feature phone replacements are not being used as smartphone and run an older Android release, they don't really count.

Android is not as big as a true smartphone OS as people think.

Besides, I was talking about PCs. You know, Windows PCs and Macs (and others like Linux desktops). Apple has had large gains in marketshare with the Mac vs Windows and most quarters has seen much more growth compared to all the Windows box makers.

Apple has largely ignored the laptop innovation in recent years, focusing its innovation on mobile technology.

Really, like what? Most windows laptops are still trying to copy the Macbook Air.

Intels "ultrabook" efforts were in direct response to Apple's innovation with the Macbook Air.

I still have not seen a Macbook Pro / retina machine on the Windows side that has any mainstream use or sales.

Exactly what are you referring to?

Apple was a great product when they were made in the US, not so much now that they're made in sweat shops in China.

Apple products are still very well made, even in the sweatshops of china. Apple is very active in HW design and in watching over and directing the construction of their devices in those sweatshops. They also buy a heck of a lot of manufacturing equipment for their "sweatshops".

That is why the iPhone has won 9 straight JD Power and Associates quality awards.

Worked for a while, with Windows 8, they better start finding some innovation if they want that "apple experience" to keep its cachet.

This is really funny. Try this in Google "windows 8 sales"

Every article is about the poor reception, the stall in sales, the PC business being in danger.

Windows 8 is another flop form Microsoft.

You don't make essentially the same product you made 5 years ago, change its color and shape, and call yourself an innovator.

Neither does Apple. Seems you have not seen a new computer from anyone in the last 5 years based on your comments.

--

chadbag

04-05-13, 20:33

Really? How many logic boards have you had replaced? Fair enough, if you're someone who isn't hugely tech savvy, the premium might be worth the cost, if you buy Applecare (another $250 to the price of a MacBook), and support/teaching options (another $150). I paid $2500 for new retina display laptop (in august) , and the Applecare etc, and you're talking close to $3k. 3x the cost of a comparable Windows machine. Is the Apple worth 3x the money? Not so much anymore.

Show me a comparable machine to what you bought on the Windows side. And show me exactly which Macbook Pro you bought (specs and all).

I bet you comparing two different things and not a fair comparison.

And btw, though I am not Belmont, I have had only one logic board replaced in the last 5 years on all my macs combined, under the normal 1 year warranty (I did not have apple care on it). The GPU chip failed. The same chip that most comparable Windows machines also used.

I also had a Mac Pro replaced (bought in Dec 2007 -- replaced mid 2008) under the normal warranty. Not because of logic board failure. The memory riser had developed a problem and the Apple Store repair guys could not get one in in time through their normal supply chain, for some reason, and so they replaced the whole machine with a newer model equivalent. A $5-$6k machine replaced due to the $70 riser board I could have bought from a 3rd party supplier off the internet.

I'm not saying they don't make a better product. I'm saying that it isn't that much better, especially since the more technologically capable you are, the greater the opportunity costs involved.

Belmont31R

04-05-13, 20:34

Really? How many logic boards have you had replaced? Fair enough, if you're someone who isn't hugely tech savvy, the premium might be worth the cost, if you buy Applecare (another $250 to the price of a MacBook), and support/teaching options (another $150). On a new retina display laptop you're talking close to $3k. 3x the cost of a comparable Windows machine. Is the Apple worth 3x the money? Not so much anymore.

I'm not saying they don't make a better product. I'm saying that it isn't that much better, especially since the more technologically capable you are, the greater the opportunity costs involved.

That happens with every computer company. Do you have any data that shows their MB's fail more often than other big names?

Most PC's come with a 1 year warrantly. AppleCare is voluntary and you can even get it later on after the sale or get a refund on it.

The educational thing is also optional, and probably a good thing for the masses of idiots. Just like we were discussing security. Thats how viruses get on machines a majority of the time. Maybe its not a bad thing for people to spend 100 on a class to teach them not to be idiots.

3x the cost?

Tell me where you can get a PC with the same resolution, 650M card or better, 256 SSD or better, quad core i7 with the same or better build quality for $733 or less.

Gutshot John

04-05-13, 20:39

Well enjoy your Kool-Aid, I've really got better things to do.

Gutshot John

04-05-13, 20:43

That happens with every computer company. Do you have any data that shows their MB's fail more often than other big names?

No I don't, but I never once said that they fail more.

BUT IF I'M PAYING A PREMIUM FOR THE APPLE EXPERIENCE I DON'T EXPECT MY ****ING LOGIC BOARD TO GO TITS UP AFTER TWO GODDAMN YEARS. TWICE!!!!

And if it does, I expect them to stand behind their product.

If my logic board is going to go tits up anyways, I'll buy a cheaper computer that can do 90% of what the apple can do, with comparable security, and replace it at a fraction of the cost.

Most PC's come with a 1 year warrantly. AppleCare is voluntary and you can even get it later on after the sale or get a refund on it.

If you're already paying 3x as much for a comparable computer, why would you pay even more for them to support a product that they claim is the standard of reliability and stability?

Your money, your call.

Belmont31R

04-05-13, 20:55

No I don't, but I never once said that they fail more.

BUT IF I'M PAYING A PREMIUM FOR THE APPLE EXPERIENCE I DON'T EXPECT MY ****ING LOGIC BOARD TO GO TITS UP AFTER TWO GODDAMN YEARS. TWICE!!!!

And if it does, I expect them to stand behind their product.

If my logic board is going to go tits up anyways, I'll buy a cheaper computer that can do 90% of what the apple can do, with comparable security, and replace it at a fraction of the cost.

If you're already paying 3x as much for a comparable computer, why would you pay even more for them to support a product that they claim is the standard of reliability and stability?

Your money, your call.

The premium isn't that much. Your 3X the cost claim is not true.

Our PC is a Samsung Series 9 with AL construction and was $1400 without tax or anything else else. However the screen is garbage in comparison, 128 SSD, dual core i5 and no discreet graphics. Looking back I'd much rather pay another $800 and get twice the SSD storage, WAY better screen, discreet 650M, quad core i7 and a different OS.

Of course there a sit ton of PC's below 1k but Im done with the plastic garbage and they are basically disposable. Im sorry you had bad luck but that is not the norm.

Hmac

04-05-13, 20:57

LOL. This is just like the good old days.

chadbag

04-05-13, 21:00

Well enjoy your Kool-Aid, I've really got better things to do.

Interesting. When presented with facts, and asked for details to support your claims, you punt and mutter something about kool-aid.

No kool-aid here, GSJ. But you might want to check in your cupboard.

---

Gutshot John

04-05-13, 21:01

3x the cost?

Tell me where you can get a PC with the same resolution, 650M card or better, 256 SSD or better, quad core i7 with the same or better build quality for $733 or less.

3x? I was being generous.

The internet, look around. It isn't even hard.

Not including Applecare and perks, nicely configured, your MacBook pro retina is going to be ~$2.5k. No doubt a nice machine.

If your needs are slight, and you can get away with bare bones. I can find you a netbook running Windows 7 and 4GB Ram for about 1/10th the price, which would serve the needs of 80% of computer users for at least 2 years...without breaking a sweat. No it's not the same machine, but it will easily do 80%+ of what the MBP will do.

You think that last 20% of capability is worth at least 3x the cost.

I don't anymore.

Belmont31R

04-05-13, 21:02

LOL. This is just like the good old days.

I avoided the tablet thread just because I didn't want to read about people buying $150 Android tablets that do 'everything' an Ipad can do. We have a Tab 2 here and if it wasn't for my kids I'd love to smash it with a hammer. Such stupid shit that thing is.

Gutshot John

04-05-13, 21:03

Interesting. When presented with facts, and asked for details to support your claims, you punt and mutter something about kool-aid.

No kool-aid here, GSJ. But you might want to check in your cupboard.

---

Oh please. I guess you didn't bother to read the post before. You're not interested in details or facts. You're operating under the assumption that I'm saying Macs suck. I'm saying they aren't worth the premium that they've historically commanded. That's not even a controversial statement.

Exactly why I bowed out...because I've seen this movie before.

You can't reason with apple fanboys.

Belmont31R

04-05-13, 21:07

3x? I was being generous.

The internet, look around. It isn't even hard.

Not including Applecare and perks, nicely configured, your MacBook pro retina is going to be ~$2.5k. No doubt a nice machine.

If your needs are slight, and you can get away with bare bones. I can find you a netbook running Windows 7 and 4GB Ram for about 1/10th the price, which would serve the needs of 80% of computer users for at least 2 years...without breaking a sweat. No it's not the same machine, but it will easily do 80%+ of what the MBP will do.

You think that last 20% of capability is worth at least 3x the cost.

I don't anymore.

So now you are moving the goal post, and comparing the most high end Apple laptop (nicely configured) to the cheapest 4GB crap 'netbook'? OF COURSE the cheap plastic netbook will be cheaper.

Im still waiting on a PC with a comparable screen, SSD storage, graphics card, build quality, and CPU for 733 or less.

The closest thing I can think of is the Asus 51 ultrabook which is like $2k last time I checked. Even then its a 1080p screen which is still like a thousand MP less than the Retina.

Gutshot John

04-05-13, 21:10

Gutshot John

04-05-13, 21:15

So now you are moving the goal post,

Actually I moved both goal posts. Yours and mine.

Yes I modified the specs, I also went from 3x to 10x.

Belmont31R

04-05-13, 21:18

http://www.amazon.com/Acer-AO756-2617-11-6-Inch-Netbook-Black/dp/B009AF1PSM/ref=sr_1_1?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1365213371&sr=1-1

Starting price of MacBookAir...$999.

Yep, more than 3x more expensive.

Identical RAM, sure it's a better processor. 3x better?

If you say so, it's your dime. Buy what you want.

I thought we were talking about the MBP? Of course you can find those cheap plastic netbooks for that price. I never said anything about the Air.

chadbag

04-05-13, 21:20

Lets do some comparisons:

Apple 13" Macbook Pro (non retina)
2.9ghz i7
8GB RAM
128GB SSD
1280x800 screen
Intel HD 4000 graphics
DVD drive
ethernet port, Thunderbolt port (hi speed expansion), USB3, SDXC slot
12.78" x 8.94" x .95"
4.5 lbs

$1599

Apple 13" Macbook Pro retin
2.5ghz i5
8gb RAM
128GB SSD
2560x1600 screen
Thunderbolt, USB3, SDXC slot (no ethernet)
No DVD
12.35" x 8.62" x 0.75"
3.57 lbs

$1499

Apple 13" Macbook Air
1.8ghz i5
8GB RAM
128GB SSD
1440x900 screen
Intel HD 4000 graphics
Thunderbolt, USB3
no DVD
11.8 x 7.56 x 0.68 (at thinnest 0.11)
2.38

$1299

Samsung Series 9 13.3" Premium Ultrabook
2.0ghz i7
4GB RAM
128GB SSD
1920x1080 screen
Intel HD 4000 graphics
multi card slot, wired ethernet through included dongle (not built in), USB
12.3" x 8.6" x 0.51"
2.55 lbs

$1399

--

all have 1 year parts and labor.

Hmm, seems to me that the comparable machines are in the same price range. The Apple machines all have 2x the RAM as configured. The Samsung has higher rez screen than the non retina MBP and the Air. The air is lighter, and the thin parts extend further into the machine than the Samsung. The Macbook Pro non retina has a DVD and ethernet port. None of the other machines do. All except the Air have a card reader built in. Apple is more expandable with the Thunderbolt port. Both Samsung and Apple have minor advantages in different areas.

What about this "Apple Premium price" Non-sense?

You can do the comparison of any name brand PC of the same general capability and construction and come up with similar prices for both.

I did not pick and choose. The Samsung was the first PC I looked up and then I went and looked up comparable Apple machines.

--

Belmont31R

04-05-13, 21:20

Actually I moved both goal posts. Yours and mine.

Yes I modified the specs, I also went from 3x to 10x.

So now you can buy a PC with the same or better resolution as the Retina MPB, 650M or better, 256SSD or better with the same build quality or better with a quad core i7 for $220?

There have always been cheap laptops. No one is disputing that. The best PC displays now are 1080P which is over 1000MP less than the retina. You won't find a PC with the same resolution or better.

chadbag

04-05-13, 21:21

http://www.amazon.com/Acer-AO756-2617-11-6-Inch-Netbook-Black/dp/B009AF1PSM/ref=sr_1_1?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1365213371&sr=1-1

Starting price of MacBookAir...$999.

Yep, more than 3x more expensive.

Identical RAM, sure it's a better processor. 3x better?

If you say so, it's your dime. Buy what you want.

There is no comparison. The $1000 Macbook Air is more than 5x more useful as a computer.

You can compare bottom of the barrel ditchdigger windows machines to Apple machines all you want. You just make yourself look like a fool.

---

Gutshot John

04-05-13, 21:23

So now you can buy a PC with the same or better resolution as the Retina MPB, 650M or better, 256SSD or better with the same build quality or better with a quad core i7 for $220?

Wow, you really are hung up on that resolution.

You got me there.

Yes I agree for 10x the price, the resolution is much better.

But for that money it better make me shoot in my pants.

Gutshot John

04-05-13, 21:24

There is no comparison. The $1000 Macbook Air is more than 5x more useful as a computer..
---

Bullshit.

chadbag

04-05-13, 21:25

Belmont31R

04-05-13, 21:25

Wow, you really are hung up on that resolution.

You got me there.

Yes I agree for 10x the price, the resolution is much better.

But for that money it better make me shoot in my pants.

Aside from the resolution then do the same comparison.

Belmont31R

04-05-13, 21:30

And I dare say the Apple 1 year warranty is a better warranty. Apple's is not limited to the initial owner. And Apple has stores you can walk into all around the country (and in most cases, indeed the world) and get service at.

Samsung either has independent service places [varying quality] or you send it to them.

--

That is a big thing for me, and their employees do have a lot of room to replace stuff and they won't be dicks about things or blame others. My wife washed her iPhone, and they gave her a new one even though she said she washed it. They just said don't do that again and came out with a brand new boxed iPhone 4 (current gen at the time) and handed it to her.

You won't find a better consumer tech company when it comes to after the buy support. I will never buy a single Dell product after listening in to a business customer getting hung up on.

chadbag

04-05-13, 21:32

Bullshit.

NO. Bullshit to you.

That netbook you posted is basically worthless today as a functional computer.

Intel Celeron Processor 877 (1.4GHz, 2MB L3 cache)
4 GB DDR3 RAM
320 GB 5400 rpm Hard Drive
11.6-Inch Screen, Intel HD Graphics
Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit, 4-hour battery life

You can probably do email, facebook, etc on it and browse your basic sites.

Apple Macbook Air has dual core 1.7ghz i5 (probably twice the performance of the 1.4ghz Celeron 877) with far more modern graphics and is not slowed down by some ancient hard drive. It also includes USB3 and Thunderbolt for expandability. The Macbook Air weighs less, and has better battery life. I also suspect the "webcam" on the air is better at 720p compared to "HD"

---

Gutshot John

04-05-13, 21:35

I will never buy a single Dell product after listening in to a business customer getting hung up on.

I'd shoot myself before buying another Dell product, because of their tech support.

That said, my gaming PC is a Dell...and has been going strong for 5 years.

chadbag

04-05-13, 21:35

3x? I was being generous.

The internet, look around. It isn't even hard.

Then do it. Show us COMPARABLE machines.

I dare you to.

I already listed my entry which showed the Windows and Apple machines in the same class of machine are in the same price range.

Not including Applecare and perks, nicely configured, your MacBook pro retina is going to be ~$2.5k. No doubt a nice machine.

If your needs are slight, and you can get away with bare bones. I can find you a netbook running Windows 7 and 4GB Ram for about 1/10th the price, which would serve the needs of 80% of computer users for at least 2 years...without breaking a sweat. No it's not the same machine, but it will easily do 80%+ of what the MBP will do.

You think that last 20% of capability is worth at least 3x the cost.

I don't anymore.

Belmont31R

04-05-13, 21:43

I'd shoot myself before buying another Dell product, because of their tech support.

That said, my gaming PC is a Dell...and has been going strong for 5 years.

We have a huge Dell facility here in Austin (more specifically Round Rock) and every time I drive by it more and more parking lots are empty.

On the same note Apple is here in Austin and my BIL works for them doing tech support. He had advanced up and done well with them. Call any other tech support and you get an Indian who will tell you to reboot and just be a big fail.

This is most most comparable thing I can think of to a MBP Retina.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834230672

Gutshot John

04-05-13, 21:45

Then do it. Show us COMPARABLE machines.

I give up dude. You're right.

Better?

chadbag

04-05-13, 21:50

I give up dude. You're right.

Better?

No. It is not "better." The goal is to not have you wimp out. It is for you to show us that you are right instead of speaking out your *ss.

Show us a comparable machine to any given Apple machine. It needs to be in the same class of machine including construction.

You won't be anywhere near 3x with the Apple. You won't even be 2x. You'll be around .8 to 1.2x with the Apple device. In the same price range.

Go ahead, back up your claims.

--

chadbag

04-05-13, 21:56

This is most most comparable thing I can think of to a MBP Retina.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834230672

The above is $2299

An equivalent MBP Retina with the same SSD is $2499. That gives you a 2.4ghz i7 instead of 2.1ghz and the 2560x1600 instead of 1920x1080 display. Same size SSD. The Asus and MBP use the same graphcs card but the Asus has more graphics memory. It appears that the Asus is dual 256gb while the Apple is single 512gb SSD. The Asus is lighter weight than the MBP.

If I cut the Apple SSD down to 256GB the price is $2199.

End result is approximately same price for machines in the same rough class. Apple does not make a 15" Macbook Air which is roughly what this is Asus should be compared to.

--

Gutshot John

04-05-13, 21:57

Sincerely, from the bottom of my heart...

I could give a long wet fart about what you want or what you think you're entitled to.

chadbag

04-05-13, 22:01

Sincerely, from the bottom of my heart...

I could give a long wet fart about what you want or what you think you're entitled to.

You're the one talking out his *ss and making up all sorts of claims that we are to take seriously but when challenged just punts, talks about cool aid, wet farts, and other technical things, and walks away.

If you can't back up your claims, don't make them.

So far you are batting 0.

Are we to take you seriously in the future when you start talking about things technical? With your new background, you have lots to contribute. But when you talk, you need to be able to back up your claim or people will ignore you, including all the good things you have to say. Since you are just talking out your *ss.

Come on. Let's see these wonder miracle Windows machines you claim are all over the internet that are 1/3rd the cost of a comparable Apple Mac.

You brought it up GSJ. We just asked for details and so far you are unable to back up your claims.

Come on, save face, show us these machines that are all over the internet.

ETA: And btw, I don't think I am entitled to anything.

==

Gutshot John

04-05-13, 22:06

Talking out of my ass? :happy:

You're saying that, but you're not stupid enough to actually believe it, so forgive me if your words ring a little hollow. It does however explain why you're acting like a petulant child.

Look dude, I'm sorry you don't like what I have to say, have a nice night. I've really got better things to do than research computer specs after doing it most of the week for a client.

Belmont31R

04-05-13, 22:08

The above is $2299

An equivalent MBP Retina with the same SSD is $2499. That gives you a 2.4ghz i7 instead of 2.1ghz and the 2560x1600 instead of 1920x1080 display. Same size SSD. The Asus and MBP use the same graphcs card but the Asus has more graphics memory. It appears that the Asus is dual 256gb while the Apple is single 512gb SSD. The Asus is lighter weight than the MBP.

If I cut the Apple SSD down to 256GB the price is $2199.

End result is approximately same price for machines in the same rough class. Apple does not make a 15" Macbook Air which is roughly what this is Asus should be compared to.

--

I got Apple educational discount which anyone can get by taking one class at the local college and I'd hate to seek support from Asus and none of their retailers give a **** about any education discount. You can get that discount for homeschooling, too.

I do like Asus but its a foreign company. When I built my gaming PC I got a Maxiumus V Extreme and a 660ti. They make some awesome Xonar sound cards, too. Just comparing like for like on the top end stuff is stupid. Plus with the Retina refresh Mac Mall is selling base MBP Retinas for like $1900, and you won't pay sales tax.

chadbag

04-05-13, 22:16

Talking out of my ass? :happy:

Yes, talking out your ass. You are talking like the DPMS lovers who think that DPMS is equal to a colt for 1/2 the price.

Talking out your ass is exactly what you are doing. Making claims that you cannot support.

You're saying that, but you're not stupid enough to actually believe it, so forgive me if your words ring a little hollow. It does however explain why you're acting like a petulant child.

I don't think "petulant" means what you think it means.

pet·u·lant [pech-uh-luhnt] Show IPA
adjective
moved to or showing sudden, impatient irritation, especially over some trifling annoyance: a petulant toss of the head.

or

petulant |ˈpeCHələnt| adjective
(of a person or their manner) childishly sulky or bad-tempered:

With all this talk about "wet farts", I might look in the mirror if I were you.

I am rationally asking you to support your claims. You're laughably doing all you can to avoid doing just that.

Look dude, I'm sorry you don't like what I have to say, have a nice night. I've really got better things to do than research computer specs after doing it most of the week for a client.

Don't make claims you cannot back up then. In the time it has taken you to make as many excuses as you can, I've quickly looked up specs on several Apple and non Apple machines and posted about them here.

It's not that I don't like what you have to say. There is nothing to "like" or "dislike" about it. It is that you made it up out of thin air and are passing it off as technical knowledge and advice.

I've offered several times in this thread to let you try and salvage your reputation as a technology-minded person. So far, ZILCH.

So, stop talking out your ass and making it up as you go and let's see some facts to support your claims. So far, your in the DPMS crowd as far as technology goes.

---

chadbag

04-05-13, 22:19

I got Apple educational discount which anyone can get by taking one class at the local college and I'd hate to seek support from Asus and none of their retailers give a **** about any education discount. You can get that discount for homeschooling, too.

Yeah, I can get a business discount through some people I am working with or I can get the home-school discount since we are "certified" home school through the school district we work with. But for the sake of this discussion, I am talking about normal retail street price.

I do like Asus but its a foreign company. When I built my gaming PC I got a Maxiumus V Extreme and a 660ti. They make some awesome Xonar sound cards, too. Just comparing like for like on the top end stuff is stupid. Plus with the Retina refresh Mac Mall is selling base MBP Retinas for like $1900, and you won't pay sales tax.

I've had some ASUS logic boards and other components before in some servers I built. It was good stuff and not bottom of the barrel.

--

Hmac

04-05-13, 22:21

Well enjoy your Kool-Aid, I've really got better things to do.

I sincerely doubt that's true. I've been seeing threads like this one for decades. Like most Apple haters, won't be able to help yourself.

Gutshot John

04-05-13, 22:23

I sincerely doubt that's true. I've been seeing threads like this one for decades. Like most Apple haters, won't be able to help yourself.

I'm an apple hater that owns apple products....right that makes perfect sense.

Fanboy logic.

chadbag

04-05-13, 22:24

I'm an apple hater that owns apple products....right that makes perfect sense.

Fanboy logic.

Nothing illogical about it.

Your actions and language paint you for what you are, which is an Apple hater.

It is no different than Feinstein having a CCW.

---

Hmac

04-05-13, 22:38

I'm an apple hater that owns apple products....right that makes perfect sense.

Fanboy logic.

You really don't see it? Seriously?

WillBrink

04-06-13, 07:15

Mac is the HK, PC is the Glock.:)

But Glocks are reliable! :dance3:

Hmac

04-06-13, 07:27

But Glocks are reliable! :dance3:

Heh. I was thinking of MY Glock and the number of times I was hit in the forehead by ejected brass.

WillBrink

04-06-13, 07:43

Heh. I was thinking of MY Glock and the number of times I was hit in the forehead by ejected brass.

Mark of max coolness is the burn marks on your forehead. :ph34r:

Gutshot John

04-06-13, 07:55

You really don't see it? Seriously?

Coming from the guy with the Mac logo in his avatar...

And I'm the one that doesn't see it?

Seriously?

Hmac

04-06-13, 08:20

Gutshot John

04-06-13, 08:34

Forgive me, these kinds of diatribes from Apple haters like you are old news to a long time Apple user like me. I have neither the energy nor the interest in sustaining yet another irrelevant Mac vs. PC argument. I'm sure somewhere in your posts here you've made some good points. I just don't care. You're a smart guy. I'm not going to change your mind, nor do care if I do.

Might want to remove the log from your eye, before you worry about the splinter in mind.

I never said mac vs. pc. That was the field of straw men that you set upon with a flamethrower.

I simply said it wasn't worth the premium for all but a small subset of users. Now if you really like expensive toys with nice features, yes Apple is a lovely computer that is an overall better computer, in spite of its problems. I'm just not sure why it's a problem to say that the gap has shrunk rather dramatically in the last 5-10 years.

A $250 netbook, will fulfill the needs of the vast majority of worldwide users (web browsing, email, the occasional document or spreadsheet). A nicer windows box will take care of the vast majority of the remainder.

If you're into graphic design, or the arts, or anything that requires a retina display, or you need a company to handhold you through maintaining your computer...sure it's worth the premium. Otherwise not so much. I'm peristently amazed given their graphics why they aren't cleaning up in the gaming industry, but whatever. If you're a serious gamer, Mac is a no-go.

I've used apple products since I was able to afford them but they aren't the same product that they were. They don't even focus on laptops anymore, the vast majority of their revenue comes from mobile devices.

Innovation has lapsed, quality has gone done, useful life is a fraction of what it used to be, and the "apple experience" doesn't make up for that. My argument was never once that "apple sucks", my argument was that for most people's needs, including serious computer professionals, the utility doesn't justify the cost. I didn't even start this thread, but that it exists points to that reality.

So now you've got to justify to yourself why you drank that kool-aid...and so rather than acknowledging real shortcomings with Apple and helping them improve. You stick your fingers in your ears and go "NOT LISTENING!" Content to pretend that there is no problem. This is a sure indication of complacency and stagnation.

That's not even a controversial statement and yet you fanboys can't see the forest for the trees.

Gutshot John

04-06-13, 08:47

Interjecting some levity...

http://xkcd.com/530/

http://xkcd.com/1056/

http://xkcd.com/934/

http://xkcd.com/676/

http://theoatmeal.com/blog/fix_computer

chadbag

04-06-13, 13:37

Innovation has lapsed, quality has gone done, useful life is a fraction of what it used to be, and the "apple experience" doesn't make up for that. My argument was never once that "apple sucks", my argument was that for most people's needs, including serious computer professionals, the utility doesn't justify the cost. I didn't even start this thread, but that it exists points to that reality.

Yet you've failed to give examples of this "lapsed" innovation or give examples where the competition is innovating ahead, even when presented with examples of said innovation. You've not given any proof that "useful life is fraction of what it used to be" beyond your personal experience of having 2 logic boards fail. I gave counter examples of my Macs just working still with the purchase dates being between between 2007 and Nov 2008 [and I think one mini early in 2009] with little problem and the couple problems there were early in their lifetimes and covered under the normal warranty. [while I have had extended AppleCare on a couple of my units, I've never had to file a claim after the initial standard year included]. My MIL uses my original Mac mini I bought around 2005 as a refurb unit (orginal core duo first gen intel) to this day, every day. It just keeps chugging on.

And you've given an subjective opinion that the Apple experience doesn't make up for that. To that claim it was pointed out that Apple Mac computers continue to outsell the Windows competition in terms of market share changes. The Apple Experience must be worth something. Where most vendors have negative growth or very small positive growth, most quarters the Mac has outgrown Windows computers. There have been a few quarters of exceptions. (Look for this current quarter that just ended to show very high Mac growth as the iMac production started to catch up with demand, where the previous quarter, production issues limited shipments artificially. And both Microsoft and Samsung are copying Apple retail initiatives with either their own stores or store-within-a-stores. Again, the Apple Experience must be worth something.

You've completely been unable to show the competition doing better in any of these areas as well.

So now you've got to justify to yourself why you drank that kool-aid...and so rather than acknowledging real shortcomings with Apple and helping them improve.

We acknowledge the real shortcomings with Apple. We don't have to go and make up false and bogus ones.

You stick your fingers in your ears and go "NOT LISTENING!" Content to pretend that there is no problem. This is a sure indication of complacency and stagnation.

That's not even a controversial statement and yet you fanboys can't see the forest for the trees.

Pot, meet kettle. GSJ, you have not listed one supportable statement and have been unwilling when challenged to support them with any sort of evidence.

The idea that a $250-$300 netbook would satisfy most users is laughable. If that were true, they would be flying off the shelves instead of being part of a declining and stagnating market.

And Apple computers are no more expensive than comparable name brand computers running windows. They are all in the same ballpark pricewise at a given level of capability.

ETA: it is amazing how fanboys are just mindless droids (no pun or otherwise intended) and cannot see anything and how Apple detractors are the only people who see everything perfectly and how it is all so clear and obvious.... What dumbnuts we are....

ETA^2: If you had real, honest, supportable criticisms, someone might listen and acknowledge. So far, however, that has not happened. If you did, it was a small point lost in all the bogus noise.

----

WillBrink

04-06-13, 14:09

And Apple computers are no more expensive than comparable name brand computers running windows. They are all in the same ballpark pricewise at a given level of capability.

And if they are a bit more $$$ for comparable performance, they are worth it in my experience.

It's like the Iphone thread I started that turned into a piss fest of "Mac fan boys" vs "Mac Haters", it's simple: don't like Mac products compared to others for the $$$ and consider them more hype and marketing then substance, don't f-ing by one, but you're unlikely to alter other peoples minds on the topic.

Per the first post of this thread, I'm keeping an eye out and always looking at what the options are to Mac (which is why I started the thread...), but after looking around, I find I'm willing to pay for the Mac products for various reasons and what ever (perceived or real) $$$ I would have saved on a non Mac product would have likely left me un happy dude at this time.

I'll continue to keep an open mind to alternatives as things are progressing rapidly.

Side note:

I have to say, I'm really liking the Windows 8 phones (especially the Nokia 920) and it makes the Iphone seem downright clunky, but I have not lived with one to really see if the OS on the Winows 8 phone is more flash than function compared to an Iphone.

chadbag

04-06-13, 14:12

And of they are a bit more $$$ for comparable performance, they are worth it in my experience.

I assume you mean "if" above where it says "of" [second word].

The ones that were compared last night all are comparable CPU speeds if not faster than their non Mac counterparts with the same or more RAM in the same price bracket. GPUs were the same though in one case the Windows machine had more GPU RAM.

So, now-a-days [compared to times of yore] the performance is comparable in the same price bracket. That was not always the case, but seems to be now and for the last couple years.

--

WillBrink

04-06-13, 14:15

I assume you mean "if" above where it says "of" [second word].

The ones that were compared last night all are comparable CPU speeds if not faster than their non Mac counterparts with the same or more RAM in the same price bracket. GPUs were the same though in one case the Windows machine had more GPU RAM.

So, now-a-days [compared to times of yore] the performance is comparable in the same price bracket. That was not always the case, but seems to be now and for the last couple years.

--

F-ing typos!!! Corrected.

kwelz

04-06-13, 14:58

The only place that apple is lagging behind is with their Mac Pros. They are in dire need of an update. They are still powerhouses to be sure but the Price / performance isn't as good as it once was.

The current iMacs, MBA, and MBP line are all very comparable to the PC lineups out there. A good Ultrabook with a current Gen i5 is going to run you around 900-1100. Which is comparable to a MBA price.

The new retina line of Mac Book Pros is more expensive but there is no PC equivalent and won't be for a bit still. But once we do you won't see them being cheap either.

It could be argued that Apple is playing it safe with the iPhone 5. Slightly larger screen along with the new design and features. It compares well with the Galaxy S3 and lags behind the GS4.

I am curious to see what this years release brings. However despite the "end has come" screaming from some people, the fact that other companies have caught up isn't in any way a bad thing for Apple.

In fact it had to happen. A device like the iPhone changes everything. It in the machine gun of the phone world. It forced every company in the business to change the way they designed and marketed phones. Many failed to keep up, others took some time. But now we have some stabilisation in the market. Apple and Samsung seem to be comping out as the big competitors with others fighting over the small portion of the pie remaining. Apple and Google are the only names in Mobile Operating systems with Microsofts being a joke.

But it seems that people expect every release of the iphone to be as groundbreaking as the first one was. And that is just not a reasonable expectation. It just isn't possible. Same with the computers.

The Aluminum bodies Mac Book Pro line of computers was something that nobody had seen before. The Macbook air was a real shocker that everyone said would fail yet sparked the entire ultrabook market. That doesn't mean that they are going to have an idea like that every year though. They refine those products. Play it safe for a few years while R&D is working on the next ipod, or iphone or whatever.

Lets close up with a list of products that apple has made that changed the markets lately.

The Original iMac: A simple all in one computer. Affordable and easy to use. No Disk drive means that people had to transition to CDs and only had USB.

Current iMacs: High performance, small form factor with no cables except power. One of the best displays on the market for a full sized computer.

Thunderbolt/Thunderbolt Display. Partnership with Intel that is defining THE high speed data transfer format we will be using. Daisy chain-able and can transmit just about any kind of data and multiple types of data at the same time. You can have 4 hard drives all being accessed and a display at the end of the chain playing a movie or game and have no performance issues.

The iPod: Not the first MP3 player but the one that defined what an MP3 Player is even to this day. Competition was laughable and they still have 75% or so of the market.

The iPhone: As I said above it literally changed the way that phones were designed. People like to say that they have lost market share and now only have 39% while android has around 51%. So they ONLY have 39% of the market with 1 Phone compared to the dozens for Android. I would call that a win any day. The closes competitor in the actual phone hardware market is Samsung with about 21%

Macbook Air:
A while new form factor and idea for a computer. Instead of balls to the wall performance they went for a balance of size vs speed. Business uses took note. A small laptop with long battery life. Where do we sign up. The first model was a bit Meh. But the further refinements really made it a great laptop. I am typing on one now in fact. And all those great Ultrabooks you see out there. A direct result of the Mac book Airs introduction.

chadbag

04-06-13, 15:20

Yes the Mac Pros are long in the tooth. Tim Cook promised a replacement for the current Mac Pro to come out this year. I am excited to see what they do. To see if that will replace my current Mac Pro or if I replace it with a MBP/retina.

As an aside: here is something to criticize Apple about. The weak naming of some of their products. I thought "The New iPad" as great, and they could have called all new iPads that and just given a year of introduction to differentiate. And they could have done the same thing with the iPhone... But no.

http://appleinsider.com/articles/13/04/06/former_apple_consultant_apples_iphone_naming_conventions_send_weak_message.html

-

kwelz

04-06-13, 15:57

chadbag

04-06-13, 16:08

Yep. I actually replaced my Mac PRo with a 27 inch iMac. For most things it is actually faster because of the i7 Processor compared to the older xeons in the MP.

I've considered it, but the iMac can't do what I do with my Mac Pro. I have the 2008 MacPro so it will run the 64 bit stuff. It has 16GB of RAM and had 4 HD but now has 2 SSD and 2HD plus an extra SSD on a card for windows under bootcamp.

It has 8 core of 3.0ghz Xeon which are still pretty fast. The i7 is faster but 8 cores makes up compared to I assume 4 on the i7. At least a little. So I can run VMWare on 2 cores when needed and still have 6 cores running my normal stuff.

But most importantly, I run 4 screens: 2x 30", 1x 24" and one older non 16x9 20".

The latest MBP can run 4 supposedly (2x TB, one HDMI, and built in). Latest iMac probably can too(?) but it would require me to get new screens. I'm hoping they have a way to run my current screens through mini-DP adapters on the coming replacement, whatever it might be.

And just for fun....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=U4Uk_e0WHyc

kwelz

04-06-13, 16:17

I've considered it, but the iMac can't do what I do with my Mac Pro. I have the 2008 MacPro so it will run the 64 bit stuff. It has 16GB of RAM and had 4 HD but now has 2 SSD and 2HD plus an extra SSD on a card for windows under bootcamp.

It has 8 core of 3.0ghz Xeon which are still pretty fast. The i7 is faster but 8 cores makes up compared to I assume 4 on the i7. At least a little. So I can run VMWare on 2 cores when needed and still have 6 cores running my normal stuff.

But most importantly, I run 4 screens: 2x 30", 1x 24" and one older non 16x9 20".

The latest MBP can run 4 supposedly (2x TB, one HDMI, and built in). Latest iMac probably can too(?) but it would require me to get new screens. I'm hoping they have a way to run my current screens through mini-DP adapters on the coming replacement, whatever it might be.

That is funny. I had the 2009 model. 8 Core. with 32 GB of Ram. At the time I was doing a lot of Video work and it did pay off. But as my business changed I did less and less. Now I mainly do image work for my Real Estate business.

I do miss the expandability at times though. Having to use External drives, even Thunderbolt ones, is a pain.

WillBrink

04-06-13, 16:33

Yep. I actually replaced my Mac PRo with a 27 inch iMac.

Funny, I just replaced my 27" in IMac with a Mac Pro 15" Retina lap top. I'm going to add a larger monitor to it when i'm home in the office.

montanadave

04-06-13, 16:36

And just for fun....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=U4Uk_e0WHyc

I could have gone the rest of my life without ever hearing the term "autoexec.bat" again.

And remember kids, "Don't copy that floppy."

P.S. I can't add anything to this discussion because I'm not a computer guy. I think of them like an appliance. I want to plug it in, turn it on, and have it work. From 1985 until 2002, I owned a Compaq, then an IBM, followed by a HP, and finally a Dell. They all ran ... until they didn't. Bought a Mac and never looked back. If there's a price premium to be paid, so be it. It's worth it to me.

chadbag

04-07-13, 01:24

Funny, I just replaced my 27" in IMac with a Mac Pro 15" Retina lap top. I'm going to add a larger monitor to it when i'm home in the office.

Actually we've been talking about the Mac Pro tower desktop, not the Macbook Pro.

Though I may end up replacing my Mac Pro tower with a Macbook Pro depending on what comes out as a Mac Pro desktop replacement.

--

Hmac

04-07-13, 06:42

Yes the Mac Pros are long in the tooth. Tim Cook promised a replacement for the current Mac Pro to come out this year. I am excited to see what they do. To see if that will replace my current Mac Pro or if I replace it with a MBP/retina.

I'm waiting for the upgrade too. I have a Mac Pro 4,1 quad core. I do a lot of video editing and other image processing and need storage, screen real estate, and video processing. I'd consider an iMac, but I really want 8TB of onboard storage and I'm intrigued by being able to do it with solid state drives. Looks like the new Mac Pros will be out this spring, but ahead of that are at least a couple of new video cards (GT680 and Radeon 7950) and drivers that will work with my early 2009 Mac Pro. I'm not sure I need upgraded processors as much as I need a better video card. It would probably be more cost effective to upgrade this one (drives and video processing) depending on any other features they may throw in.

WillBrink

04-07-13, 08:27

Actually we've been talking about the Mac Pro tower desktop, not the Macbook Pro.

Though I may end up replacing my Mac Pro tower with a Macbook Pro depending on what comes out as a Mac Pro desktop replacement.

--

Rgr rgr.

kwelz

04-07-13, 09:10

I'm waiting for the upgrade too. I have a Mac Pro 4,1 quad core. I do a lot of video editing and other image processing and need storage, screen real estate, and video processing. I'd consider an iMac, but I really want 8TB of onboard storage and I'm intrigued by being able to do it with solid state drives. Looks like the new Mac Pros will be out this spring, but ahead of that are at least a couple of new video cards (GT680 and Radeon 7950) and drivers that will work with my early 2009 Mac Pro. I'm not sure I need upgraded processors as much as I need a better video card. It would probably be more cost effective to upgrade this one (drives and video processing) depending on any other features they may throw in.

Here is a 7950 Mac specific card as well.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=14-202-027&cm_mmc=SNC-YouTube-_-NETV-_-5ep08vaCUnE-_-14-202-027