Researching small open-carry revolver for daily retail store use

[fortibus85]

I'm helping out my 71 year old father with a little research. He works at a retail vitamin/nutrition store and closes it by himself several nights a week. Although he lives in a relatively safe area, he does have to make the deposit of the day's sales to the bank, at night, several times a week. He is uncomfortable doing this on a routine basis.

I had been encouraging him to get a gun for home defense for quite some time. Only recently he revealed that he owns a .357 Ruger revolver because his late wife, my step-mom, wanted them to have a gun! He hadn't fired it in years. He had half a box each of .38 special and .357, with price tags indicating purchase in the mid 1990's...

He has decided that he wants to open-carry while at work (legal in his state) and he wants to get a small "cell phone sized" revolver. He plans to shoot it to familiarize himself, but then admittedly does not plan to practice much at all, and no formal training.

I started out typing this post intending to seek some caliber and make/model recommendations. (I'm a Glock and S&W semi-auto guy with no revolver experience since 1990). As I read the words in front of me, I feel uneasy. Although he was trained and served as a USAF Air Policeman from 1959-61, he genuinely has never been a gun guy. He is fit, and active, but he is 71. I'm not sure in good conscience that I can recommend a purchase to him for open-carry in a retail environment several days a week unless he commits to practice and attending some knowledgeable training. Heck, we haven't even _begun_ to discuss retention holsters...

I live 6 hours away so I can introduce him to stuff, but can't take him out regularly and can't substitute in any event for a qualified instructor.

So, I'm open to recommendations on caliber/make/model revolver.
Open to reasons on why he might want to consider a semi-auto.
Especially open to some practical arguments/thoughts on how to impress upon him the need for formal training if he is going to open-carry while operating solo in a retail environment with the general public. Personally I would like to see him take a class and get a concealed carry permit, buy a .22 for frequent practice, and then carry a small semi-auto concealed. Some practical advice/arguments are welcome.

Sorry for the length. It's my dad.

[dash1]

I'm in a similar predicament. My parents in law are both in their mid 70's and have shown an interest in personal protection and guns. I recommended a G19, which my father in law bought last month. Now my mother in law is looking for a smaller pistol since her hands are too small for the G19. We used Skype and face time to do a little preliminary work, mainly about safety. I can hardly wait to go shooting with them.

[Sam]

Why "small revolver" since it will be "open carry" in the retail store?

Small revolvers are harder to control, harder to shoot accurate for those who does NOT practice and train REGULARLY. I emphasized those two capitalized words on purpose.

I applaud the revolver choice as it is easier to operate for those who does not practice and train regularly, see first paragraph.

A K frame revolver is much easier to control and if the barrel is longer than 2", more forgiving in terms of accuracy. A 2 1/2", 3" or 4" K frame would be the ticket. The 3" is ideal if they can find a model 65 (S&W). The Ruger Security Six and Service Six in 2 3/4" is not a bad choice either.

I would stay away from a semi automatic of any kind if the user is not or does not train/practice regularly. Everyone loves to recommend the G19, but if the user is not or does not have the time to train with it regularly, it's not the best choice.

[ST911]

I worked with a group of ladies in their late 60s to mid 70s with similar needs and intents. To make a long selection process short, they ended up liking 3" revolvers best, SP101s and SW model 60s. It worked for them.

However, it's not about age as much as range of motion, hand/grip strength, dexterity, ability to support weight at extension. Above all else, motivation.

[wvincent]

Why not an LCR with Crimson Trace Laser Grips? 38+P is very manageable, and if he is not willing to put the time in as far as seeking training, and running drills on his own, at least the laser dot will show him where the hole is going to appear. If he is not willing to train then his ability to use front sight focus is probably going to be irrelevant anyhow.

Just being a realist here, not everybody who owns a gun is a "gun guy", nor do they desire to be one. Some people are willing to settle for "good enough" sooner than others. Everybody has their own ideas of what" proficiency" means, rarely will they actually attain it.

[fortibus85]

Why "small revolver" since it will be "open carry" in the retail store?

Small revolvers are harder to control, harder to shoot accurate for those who does NOT practice and train REGULARLY. I emphasized those two capitalized words on purpose.

I applaud the revolver choice as it is easier to operate for those who does not practice and train regularly, see first paragraph.

A K frame revolver is much easier to control and if the barrel is longer than 2", more forgiving in terms of accuracy. A 2 1/2", 3" or 4" K frame would be the ticket. The 3" is ideal if they can find a model 65 (S&W). The Ruger Security Six and Service Six in 2 3/4" is not a bad choice either.

I would stay away from a semi automatic of any kind if the user is not or does not train/practice regularly. Everyone loves to recommend the G19, but if the user is not or does not have the time to train with it regularly, it's not the best choice.

Why "small" ? At this point I am just listening to his desires and trying not to make a judgment on them. Having said that, I appreciate the input and reasons for not getting a small frame/barrel revolver, and the suggested models.

[fortibus85]

I worked with a group of ladies in their late 60s to mid 70s with similar needs and intents. To make a long selection process short, they ended up liking 3" revolvers best, SP101s and SW model 60s. It worked for them.

However, it's not about age as much as range of motion, hand/grip strength, dexterity, ability to support weight at extension. Above all else, motivation.

All my life my father lifted weights and has always been fit, but you bring up an excellent point. On the last visit he had a hand condition and does not have full finger/grip motion on one hand. I need to follow up on that!

[fortibus85]

Why not an LCR with Crimson Trace Laser Grips? 38+P is very manageable, and if he is not willing to put the time in as far as seeking training, and running drills on his own, at least the laser dot will show him where the hole is going to appear. If he is not willing to train then his ability to use front sight focus is probably going to be irrelevant anyhow.


Thanks. I checked that out and it is an interesting possibility. Once I hear back about his hand grip/strength/range of motion, I will also find out what his budget is. If the price isn't too high, I suspect he will like this particular suggestion.

I will still be checking out the other models suggested previously.

Thanks All !

[browningv308]

2nd the LCR in 38 w/laser grips I carry the same in a high noon holster owb and in 2 days time you can hardly tell it on your side, while the laser isn't always accurate it will put the shot close enough and its easy to pick up with the eyes. As far as a problem with his hand and grip strength you can get some low power ammo that will still put a damper on someone's day.

[TacCommE21]

+1 LCR. Mine isn't CTC equipped, but the ones I have shot with the laser were very accurate out to 10 yards. And laser or not, practice is required. Hope you can convince him to get out to the range with you every once in a while.

Good luck in the search.

[ImBroke]

I have a CT LCR and have shot a stainless S&W 640 with the larger CT grips. Compared to the 640/CT, the LCR/CT is brutal with +P ammo as unlike the S&W models and standard Ruger grips, there isn't a flexible recoil pocket. Just something to consider if he might be recoil sensitive. I suspect he is interested in a smaller gun b/c a lot of non-gun people feel that smaller guns are less serious.

[Rosco Benson]

You should try to talk your dad into wearing whatever he chooses concealed. This will give him some options that open carry will not. I favor surprise over deterrence in the scenario you pose.

Rosco

[fortibus85]

I have a CT LCR and have shot a stainless S&W 640 with the larger CT grips. Compared to the 640/CT, the LCR/CT is brutal with +P ammo as unlike the S&W models and standard Ruger grips, there isn't a flexible recoil pocket. Just something to consider if he might be recoil sensitive. I suspect he is interested in a smaller gun b/c a lot of non-gun people feel that smaller guns are less serious.

Okay, to make sure I am reading correctly:
- S&W 640 with CT grips have noticeably better recoil compensation than the LCR/CT.
- Ruger standard grips also have noticeably better recoil compensation than the grips on the Ruger LCR/CT. (This is where I might be confused).

[fortibus85]

You should try to talk your dad into wearing whatever he chooses concealed. This will give him some options that open carry will not. I favor surprise over deterrence in the scenario you pose.

Rosco

Personally I agree with you. I also wouldn't want the concern of worrying about someone trying to take it from me. I think he is viewing it from two aspects: (1) "If they see I have a gun they will leave me alone" (which is not necessarily true), and (2) "I don't want to take the concealed carry permit class."

[rathos]

If he is absolutely set on a small revolver then go with the biggest grip possible. I have a 442 that the recoil is a bit much with the concealed grip but with a larger hogue I can shoot it all day long. That way its easy to practice with and you aren't concerned about concealment. However as many have said if its open carry why go small? Get a model 10 or 15 in a 4 inch and call it good.

[Rosco Benson]

;)nevermind

[ImBroke]

Okay, to make sure I am reading correctly:
- S&W 640 with CT grips have noticeably better recoil compensation than the LCR/CT.
- Ruger standard grips also have noticeably better recoil compensation than the grips on the Ruger LCR/CT. (This is where I might be confused).

Yes, for the S&W, the CT 304 and 405 both have a squishy recoil pocket that helps spread the recoil impact making it more comfortable to shoot. The 305 is better in this regard as it's larger.
For the LCR, the CT laser is hard plastic so there is no give under recoil.
In addition, the 640 is heavier stainless steel so that helps with recoil as well.
Both of these are easy to conceal 5 shot guns. But your Dad isn't looking to conceal so he would be better off with a larger easier to shoot revolver like a S&W model 10,13,64,65. They are in the mid 30-oz range and can sometimes be found with 2 and 3" barrels. CT offers laser grips for those as well. He could get a police trade in revolver for ~$300.

[fortibus85]

If he is absolutely set on a small revolver then go with the biggest grip possible. I have a 442 that the recoil is a bit much with the concealed grip but with a larger hogue I can shoot it all day long. That way its easy to practice with and you aren't concerned about concealment. However as many have said if its open carry why go small? Get a model 10 or 15 in a 4 inch and call it good.

He has a 20 year old Ruger .357 with a 4 inch barrel (I don't know which model), so I assume he feels that is too big. He probably thinks it is too conspicuous.

Thanks for the info on the grips.

[fortibus85]

Yes, for the S&W, the CT 304 and 405 both have a squishy recoil pocket that helps spread the recoil impact making it more comfortable to shoot. The 305 is better in this regard as it's larger.
For the LCR, the CT laser is hard plastic so there is no give under recoil.
In addition, the 640 is heavier stainless steel so that helps with recoil as well.
Both of these are easy to conceal 5 shot guns. But your Dad isn't looking to conceal so he would be better off with a larger easier to shoot revolver like a S&W model 10,13,64,65. They are in the mid 30-oz range and can sometimes be found with 2 and 3" barrels. CT offers laser grips for those as well. He could get a police trade in revolver for ~$300.

Thanks for the clarification and additional details. Much appreciated.

[Coal Dragger]

Any thought of something in .327 Federal Magnum?

You can get a small frame revolver with 6 rounds on board as opposed to 5 rounds. While not as powerful as a .357 Magnum the .327 is no slouch, I sure as hell wouldn't want to get shot with one.

Maybe something like this?

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_766187_-1_757768_757767_757751_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y

[ICANHITHIMMAN]

Why "small revolver" since it will be "open carry" in the retail store?

Small revolvers are harder to control, harder to shoot accurate for those who does NOT practice and train REGULARLY. I emphasized those two capitalized words on purpose.

I applaud the revolver choice as it is easier to operate for those who does not practice and train regularly, see first paragraph.

A K frame revolver is much easier to control and if the barrel is longer than 2", more forgiving in terms of accuracy. A 2 1/2", 3" or 4" K frame would be the ticket. The 3" is ideal if they can find a model 65 (S&W). The Ruger Security Six and Service Six in 2 3/4" is not a bad choice either.

I would stay away from a semi automatic of any kind if the user is not or does not train/practice regularly. Everyone loves to recommend the G19, but if the user is not or does not have the time to train with it regularly, it's not the best choice.

Has anyone noticed since the start of this thread only one guy has addressed the most critical choice about you decision to advise your father? The compact revolver really is a masters weapon!

[c3006]

Has anyone noticed since the start of this thread only one guy has addressed the most critical choice about you decision to advise your father? The compact revolver really is a masters weapon!

It is true that a small revolver is difficult to shoot well but the chance he would ever have to use it at a range of more than 6 feet is unlikely for the use he is contemplating. I would consider a nice used colt detective special that can be found used in good condition for around $300 and is top quality,has a little weight,small in size and pleasing to look at. Usually the DA pull is not bad either. Good luck with your decision.

[Beat Trash]

This screams for a 3" S&W model 10/64. But those are getting harder to find.

A 3" Ruger SP101 or a 3" model 60 S&W would be a good start.

The 3" Ruger GP100 is a good gun, but he sounds like this might be bigger than what he was looking for.

[Arik]

I know this is late but....im in the same position as you. My dad (in his late 50s) is not a gun guy and wants something small, light and concealable for making deposits. He too has owned a gun since the late 90s early 00s. Back then he went out and bought a used HK USP40! Since then he probably shot 2 boxes of ammo. Two months ago i bought a used S&W 36 38spl snubby for $200. He is a been begging me to trade with him ever since. He doesnt like the weight, size, thickness of semis

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[PA PATRIOT]

I have seen this many times were a older gentlemen wishes to carry a hand gun for defense but does not want to put any real effort into selection or practice. This is a very bad situation for so many reasons that the gun maybe more of a danger to the owner/others in the area then the bad guy.

First the older gentleman's motor skills and strength are only going to deteriorate with time so open carry may not be the best idea as some young punk may just think he can disarm a older person with speed and strength.

Second many want a very small gun, lite weight with no kick so they go for the .22LR but come to later find that the heavy triggers needed for reliable ignition of a rim fire round is just to much for them to handle with weaker arthritic hands. Then if they choose a .38spl they don't like the weight of the gun or the recoil/blast even with target 148gr wad cutters. Remember the older the owner gets his physical and mental skills are only going to degrade enhancing the above difficulties so this also discards a semi auto as a wise choice.

Then we come back to the unwillingness of the older owner to maintain proficiency with said firearm so with the lack of any retain-able skills with what ever the firearm choice becomes as much as a danger to the owner/bystanders as to any attacker.

In for a penny, in for a pound so I would suggest unless you can get your father to change his current mind set then maybe O/C spray or a personal Taser maybe a better choice.

[fortibus85]

I have seen this many times were a older gentlemen wishes to carry a hand gun for defense but does not want to put any real effort into selection or practice. This is a very bad situation for so many reasons that the gun maybe more of a danger to the owner/others in the area then the bad guy.

First the older gentleman's motor skills and strength are only going to deteriorate with time so open carry may not be the best idea as some young punk may just think he can disarm a older person with speed and strength.

Second many want a very small gun, lite weight with no kick so they go for the .22LR but come to later find that the heavy triggers needed for reliable ignition of a rim fire round is just to much for them to handle with weaker arthritic hands. Then if they choose a .38spl they don't like the weight of the gun or the recoil/blast even with target 148gr wad cutters. Remember the older the owner gets his physical and mental skills are only going to degrade enhancing the above difficulties so this also discards a semi auto as a wise choice.

Then we come back to the unwillingness of the older owner to maintain proficiency with said firearm so with the lack of any retain-able skills with what ever the firearm choice becomes as much as a danger to the owner/bystanders as to any attacker.

In for a penny, in for a pound so I would suggest unless you can get your father to change his current mind set then maybe O/C spray or a personal Taser maybe a better choice.

I hear you, but I'm not sure I agree that getting a Taser is a better option, given the same training/dexterity issues discussed. I think it is easier to hurt yourself with a taser than a handgun. IMO. Also, although I mentioned that he is fit, I left out the fact that he has been a dedicated weight lifter for over 50 years, so we aren't talking about an arthritic man walking with a cane. I realize you can only see the picture I painted!

The situation has evolved a bit. Dad is now considering a concealed carry class/permit, if for no other reason than that he realizes it will give him some protection under the law. We are still pursuing the revolver option, and he has agreed to check into a CCW class. I am compiling these responses into a summary and will be forwarding them to him.

[ICANHITHIMMAN]

I hear you, but I'm not sure I agree that getting a Taser is a better option, given the same training/dexterity issues discussed. I think it is easier to hurt yourself with a taser than a handgun. IMO. Also, although I mentioned that he is fit, I left out the fact that he has been a dedicated weight lifter for over 50 years, so we aren't talking about an arthritic man walking with a cane. I realize you can only see the picture I painted!

The situation has evolved a bit. Dad is now considering a concealed carry class/permit, if for no other reason than that he realizes it will give him some protection under the law. We are still pursuing the revolver option, and he has agreed to check into a CCW class. I am compiling these responses into a summary and will be forwarding them to him.

21 feet, training is the only thing he will have on his side!

[DMR]

He has a 20 year old Ruger .357 with a 4 inch barrel (I don't know which model), so I assume he feels that is too big. He probably thinks it is too conspicuous.


Finaly. Sounds like a GP or a Security Six? I had a similure discussion with family and would/did say the following.

1. Take him out to the range and put a couple hundred rounds through the pistol he has to go over the pros and con's of the revolver in general.

2. Find a good holster for the pistol he has and do some more practice with it, say a Galco COMBAT MASTER BELT HOLSTER (http://www.usgalco.com/HolsterPG3.asp?ProductID=4095&GunID=76)
RUGER - GP100 or Security Six 4" or SUMMER COMFORT INSIDE PANT HOLSTER (http://www.usgalco.com/HolsterPG3.asp?ProductID=3590&GunID=76)- GP100 only.

3. Look at some of the following websites for training tips and sources for classes:
Snub Training (http://snubtraining.com/), ael de Bethencourt Lead instructor
Grant Cunningham (http://www.grantcunningham.com/revolver_doctrine.html), even if he does like Pincus

4. If you have or know someone with a snub then bring it/them with you and let him shoot it also.

I think in general he would be better off with a steel frame model, and perhaps with just the one he has. Until he spends some time with what he has I would just stay in the research mode.

If its one of the larger Ruger models move on.

[Alaskapopo]

I have seen this many times were a older gentlemen wishes to carry a hand gun for defense but does not want to put any real effort into selection or practice. This is a very bad situation for so many reasons that the gun maybe more of a danger to the owner/others in the area then the bad guy.

First the older gentleman's motor skills and strength are only going to deteriorate with time so open carry may not be the best idea as some young punk may just think he can disarm a older person with speed and strength.

Second many want a very small gun, lite weight with no kick so they go for the .22LR but come to later find that the heavy triggers needed for reliable ignition of a rim fire round is just to much for them to handle with weaker arthritic hands. Then if they choose a .38spl they don't like the weight of the gun or the recoil/blast even with target 148gr wad cutters. Remember the older the owner gets his physical and mental skills are only going to degrade enhancing the above difficulties so this also discards a semi auto as a wise choice.

Then we come back to the unwillingness of the older owner to maintain proficiency with said firearm so with the lack of any retain-able skills with what ever the firearm choice becomes as much as a danger to the owner/bystanders as to any attacker.

In for a penny, in for a pound so I would suggest unless you can get your father to change his current mind set then maybe O/C spray or a personal Taser maybe a better choice.

Wise words but some posters on this forum would say give him a .22 and no training and send him out the door to fend for himself. A gun without training is more of a liability than an asset.
Pat

[Blayglock]

a 3" Ruger SP101 would be ideal for what he wants IMO.

[PriseDeFer]

Got 29 people making plans for him when..."he wants to get a small "cell phone sized" revolver. He plans to shoot it to familiarize himself, but then admittedly does not plan to practice much at all, and no formal training." Seems like he's got it all mapped out except for the make/model of a cell phone sized pistola. Enough bait cut?

[Mr. Greene]

my parents are both in thier 70's and carry Ruger SP101's or S&W J frames in stainless. they like the weight of the airwieghts but can shoot the all steel models better. especially my mother a SP101 with .38's is ideal for her

[titsonritz]

S&W 640

[markyboy57]

This 637 is a dream to shoot with the houge grip.

http://imageshack.us/scaled/large/6/38special161a.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/6/38special161a.jpg/)

Or a 642 if you want hammerless.

I would conceal. No reason tipping off someone who may do you harm that you are armed.

[veeklog]

My dad has a S&W 5903, but he likes my S&W Model 60 better because he can carry easier in his advanced age. I let him have the gun and the 5903 went into the safe at home. I loaded the Model 60 with Federal .38 Hydra-Shok ( along with a speed strip and speed loader) and left the 110 grain .357 JHP in a separate speedloader next to his bed.