View Full Version : Glocks: The "Perfect" Gun?
beermj1911
03-17-13, 13:57
I've been doing a lot of research and reading a lot of forums about Glocks lately, and I've seen a recurring theme on pretty much every website. Every where I look it seems the opinion of almost everyone is that Glocks are the perfect gun.
While I do think Glocks are great guns, I would hardly say that they're perfect and from what I've read on this site I believe that most here would agree. Glocks are accurate and reliable, but I've noticed while shooting mine that there are little things that just don't fit well for me. For example, I've noticed that the outside of the trigger guard starts to dig into my hand as I shoot. I've also noticed that the bevel in the mag well doesn't really help me line up the magazine. Actually, at times I feel like it's hurt me more than it helps. More than once while trying to reload quickly I've dropped a magazine on the deck because it doesn't line up with the mag well perfectly.
So, when I started looking for ideas on how to fix these things or to see if anyone else has had similar issues all I can usually find is "Glocks are perfect there's no reason to ever change anything on them." Has anyone else had experiences like this, both with people and with finding these guns are perfect and need...tweaking just like everything else?
I'm asking on this forum because from what I've read this site usually has the most practical views on how things should or shouldn't work. Also, it seems like most people on here don't buy hype, they want real world proof that things are what they claim to be.
Thanks in advance
polymorpheous
03-17-13, 14:03
http://blog.redstatetactical.com/glock-modifications-with-larry-vickers-on-tac-tv/
I've carried a Glock on and off duty for going on 10 years now and have 0 complaints. I've been to many range qualifications with speed reloading/mag changes and have yet to drop one. I'm not saying there's something wrong with you, the Glock just may not be right for you. But for me, it is perfect.
Last I heard via some shooters that are pretty close to Glock - 700K guns back ordered. Just sayin'.
Did I miss the swarms of people proclaiming Glocks to be the perfect handgun? I always hear it referenced...
I do think if you objectively look at the 9mm Glocks, they are the best choice for a defensive pistol. This has nothing to do with "Perfection" - just the best tool for the job in many cases.
No one wants it changed because it works just fine, and everytime Glock fiddle ****s with the design, it ends up backfiring.
What would you change about it?
S. Galbraith
03-17-13, 14:32
If Glocks were perfect, people wouldn't need to make texturing alterations to the grip, add a Vickers extended mag release, or other modificaitons. What the Glock does do is provide some very important pistol characteristics in a simple, affordable, reliable, and durable package. So, it becomes a very appealing choice for many shooters.
If Glocks were perfect, people wouldn't need to make texturing alterations to the grip, add a Vickers extended mag release, or other modificaitons. What the Glock does do provide some very important pistol characteristics in a simple, affordable, reliable, and durable package. So, it becomes a very appealing choice for many shooters.
As well put as it's ever been.
Add a decocker on a PPQ or a thumb safety and you have it.. I think its great already but I am just saying to add them for duty carry.
Add a decocker on a PPQ or a thumb safety and you have it.. I think its great already but I am just saying to add them for duty carry.
Many would argue to have no decocker or thumb safety. No single gun is perfect for everyone. It's about who provides the one that is closest to perfect for most people out of the box.
RagweedZulu
03-17-13, 15:25
Glocks are about as perfect as I require in a duty or carry gun. My only real criteria are RELIABILITY and ACCURACY. For me at least, Glock fits these two area perfectly. I don't get hung up on ergonomics or long term shooting comfort. It's a tool. That's it. It's not designed to be held in the hand all day or shot in combat 1000+ rounds. After a long class I have calluses like anybody, but I don't bash the gun. I've owned a metric ton of other pistol brands and other than ONE 1911, I've sold them all off and settled on Glock. But as long as there is more than one hand out there, there will be more than one opinion on how Glocks work for each shooter. I'm keeping all of mine.
beermj1911
03-17-13, 15:34
Don't think that I'm bashing Glocks in anyway. I think they're great guns. They shoot well. I think it's a great design, it's extremely reliable and efficient. I'm not even saying that my experiences are a fault on Glock's part. I was just wondering if my experiences were my own, or if others felt the same.
I am by no means an expert with handguns, but as I shoot more I notice things that could be done to make the gun feel better or fit better to me. The problem is that when I tried to look up things to do to make the gun better (for me) I usually wind up on a forum where one person asks a question and 75% of the people (83% of statistics are made up on the spot by the way) tell the original poster that his gun is perfect and he shouldn't do anything to it, except change the sights and go shoot it.
theblackknight
03-17-13, 15:40
If Glocks were perfect, people wouldn't need to make texturing alterations to the grip, add a Vickers extended mag release, or other modificaitons. What the Glock does do is provide some very important pistol characteristics in a simple, affordable, reliable, and durable package. So, it becomes a very appealing choice for many shooters.
Besides this, why do some many people just want the easy answer? Guns are used by people, and therefore "perfect" is a moving target at best.
Guns like the Glock, M&P, FNS are soo close it becomes -who are you, and what can you live with,or ie upgrade to get it to your perfect?
Every line of pistols will have mechanical problems, and features many dont like, and the aftermarket will take care of that.
If Glocks were perfect, people wouldn't need to make texturing alterations to the grip, add a Vickers extended mag release, or other modificaitons. What the Glock does do is provide some very important pistol characteristics in a simple, affordable, reliable, and durable package. So, it becomes a very appealing choice for many shooters.
If Glocks WERE perfect, people would still jack with them. It just people's nature to tweak, customize, personalize etc.
.46caliber
03-17-13, 15:52
Perfect is a tough term to fill. I'm close to a perfect husband but not quite there, just ask my wife.
Glocks are reliable and durable and common so that parts and mags are readily available outside of our current market. Between those factors and the price they make for a great choice for defensive, fighting or duty sidearm. Perfect? Maybe for some.
The thing I don't like about Glocks is the way they feel in the hand. Nothing feels right in my hand quite like a 1911.
That being said, my next pistol will probably be a Glock. Better fit to my budget and they fit the bill very well.
Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk 2
No one gun is perfect for all shooters in all situations. I think the appeal of Glocks lies in the guns ability to work for more shooters in more situations than any other.
Ergonomics, capacity, accuracy, dependability/durability, and price being the deciding factors, I think Glocks are the best rounded pistols out there.
Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
No bashin Colt Rifles or Glock Pistols...:shout:
Many would argue to have no decocker or thumb safety. No single gun is perfect for everyone. It's about who provides the one that is closest to perfect for most people out of the box.
Yeah I get that, thats why I said for duty use, to make it appeal to more LEA and Military. I am more then fine with out those features. There is a reason why other manufactures have such a huge aftermarket, they seem to need it. The PPQ IMO does not really need a aftermarket with the exception of sights. Different strokes for different folks but out of the box I'll take the Q.
"Perfect", no. "Best option in today's market place", yes.
So, when I started looking for ideas on how to fix these things or to see if anyone else has had similar issues all I can usually find is "Glocks are perfect there's no reason to ever change anything on them." Has anyone else had experiences like this, both with people and with finding these guns are perfect and need...tweaking just like everything else?
I'm asking on this forum because from what I've read this site usually has the most practical views on how things should or shouldn't work. Also, it seems like most people on here don't buy hype, they want real world proof that things are what they claim to be.
Glocks need a little customizing be perfect. I've never seen a better overall introduction to serious, real-world Glock mods and the rationale behind them than the Glock picture thread, but reading it can cost you some serious coin.
Okie John
Funny...when I go to Mustang sites/forums people say they are great and the best muscle cars. Then when I go to Corvette sites/forums, people say those are the best. Strange.
If Glocks were perfect, people wouldn't need to make texturing alterations to the grip, add a Vickers extended mag release, or other modificaitons. What the Glock does do is provide some very important pistol characteristics in a simple, affordable, reliable, and durable package. So, it becomes a very appealing choice for many shooters.
Glocks are not perfect, Ill say that up front. I have to disagree however with your assessment that they need to be modified with texture and magazine base plates. If you want to add these because they help "you"(the user...not literaly you) then great. It is far from necessary though.
The best way to upgrade the Glock is to trade it in for a PPQ.
Just kidding. There's no such thing as a perfect pistol. Even as much as I like the PPQ, it isn't perfect either, but there is very little I'd change about it. It's not about perfection, no matter what the copy writers would have us believe
Add a decocker on a PPQ or a thumb safety and you have it.. I think its great already but I am just saying to add them for duty carry.
What use will a decocker be on a PPQ? It's a single action pistol and the only way to cock it again is to rack the slide. The PPQ is safe to carry as is. Adding a thumb safety is a bureaucrat's or politician's solution to a non-existent problem
Someone's been readin' too much marketing material. They're only perfect to those who have little to no experience with other brands. If they were perfect there wouldn't be so many "upgrades" available in the market.
There are a lot of great pistols on the market and it is great to be able to choose the tool that suits the individual.
The best way to upgrade the Glock is to trade it in for a PPQ.
Just kidding. There's no such thing as a perfect pistol. Even as much as I like the PPQ, it isn't perfect either, but there is very little I'd change about it. It's not about perfection, no matter what the copy writers would have us believe
What use will a decocker be on a PPQ? It's a single action pistol and the only way to cock it again is to rack the slide. The PPQ is safe to carry as is. Adding a thumb safety is a bureaucrat's or politician's solution to a non-existent problem
I totally agree with you on that, I do not see it necessary to have a decocker, but to some they see this as a downfall of the PPQ, and you know what I am talking about, it has been brought up before at WF. Again, I have no issues with safety and the PPQ, some do.
I used to be in the "perfection" group. Then I picked up an m&p. Maybe my hands are too large for the glocks but I find the m&p much more comfortable. Even the m&p isn't perfection for me but its closer than the glock.
I totally agree with you on that, I do not see it necessary to have a decocker, but to some they see this as a downfall of the PPQ, and you know what I am talking about, it has been brought up before at WF. Again, I have no issues with safety and the PPQ, some do.
Ok. I do know what you're talking about
Funny...when I go to Mustang sites/forums people say they are great and the best muscle cars. Then when I go to Corvette sites/forums, people say those are the best. Strange.
Yeah, but you are not on the Glock forum...:p
Anyway...... I believe this thread in general was pretty much BS
Everyone is different that we can all agree and people like different things which is good, God if everyone was like me and liked the same things I did, the world would be so much better :)
People shoot what you like.. Perfect, better and best are all subjective. There are some good firearms out huh?
Someone's been readin' too much marketing material. They're only perfect to those who have little to no experience with other brands. If they were perfect there wouldn't be so many "upgrades" available in the market.
There are a lot of great pistols on the market and it is great to be able to choose the tool that suits the individual.
Actually, it's my experience with other brands (HK, S&W, Sig, Beretta, etc..) that revealed to me just how good Glocks are.
packinaglock
03-17-13, 17:37
"Perfect", no. "Best option in today's market place", yes.
Agreed.
beermj1911
03-17-13, 17:45
Anyway...... I believe this thread in general was pretty much BS
Everyone is different that we can all agree and people like different things which is good, God if everyone was like me and liked the same things I did, the world would be so much better :)
People shoot what you like.. Perfect, better and best are all subjective. There are some good firearms out huh?
I didn't bring this up as BS. I brought it up because I tried to find information and couldn't because I couldn't find any information on the topic. So I figured I'd ask here. People here are pretty honest, in my opinion. If everyone here said that the problem was solely mine than I'd adjust and keep going. I was just wondering if other people felt the same way; that Glocks are solid guns that just need a little tweaking, or if I'm just doing it wrong.
(not to be read in a condescending tone. Just stating the purpose for the post)
Magic_Salad0892
03-17-13, 18:34
Here's a test.
Name me a pistol that is lighter weight, easier to maintain, easier to take repair if damaged, with equal or better ergonomics, better service life, better shooting characteristics, better aftermarket support, more accurate, has a better track record, and holds more rounds in the magazine than a Glock. Some guns can do one or two things better than a Glock. But they can't do everything better. A Glock usually can.
Though some will disagree, and that's okay too.
Twice in this thread it's been reasoned that "Glock has such a large aftermarket because it needs it, and *insert my favorite pistol* doesn't have one because it doesn't need it."
That is flawed logic. The aftermarket exists because of popularity - plain and simple. The PPQ or whatever else lacks an aftermarket because their sales wouldn't support it. Same reason you see so many Glock and 1911 holsters.
These aftermarket items are customization items. For example, some view the Glock extended slide stop as an upgrade. Personally, I think it sucks. Some don't like match barrels for accuracy out of fear that reliability suffers. Etc etc.
The sights are the only thing that truly need upgraded out of the box, and even they are serviceable for awhile.
For whatever it's worth, I switch between Glocks, M&Ps, and 1911s. I own less Glocks than M&Ps... before I get accused of riding Glock's dick.
before I get accused of riding Glock's dick.
Made me laugh with that one.:lol: Great point about aftermarket though.
My favorite pistol is the PPQ (with paddle release), but I traded mine for a Glock 19 (Gen 4). If the PPQ had the same grip, trigger, and release, with a lower bore, it would be as close to perfect as any firearm can be... Except for convenience. Finding holsters and mags was annoying.
My G19 is nearly as easy to be accurate with, and has about zero muzzle rise. I can also find accessories on the wall at any shop in town, pretty reliably. It's not perfect, but it's damn good, and it's very convenient to own.
"Glock Perfection" is a marketing ploy. The G19 I am setting up for carry has been modified with new Hackathorn sights, a smooth faced Glock trigger, a 3.5 # Ghost connector with overtavel control (prototype that is not available to the public yet), Ghost Bullet Forward Slide Release, and a 6# trigger spring. For ME, if it came that way from the factory it would have been perfect, but it didn't.
I thought about sending it to Cold Bore Customs for some grip work, but I have realized that if I just remove the top finger groove, and undercut the trigger guard slightly, the discomfort of feeling a finger groove bump on my middle finger will end. I'm just trying to grow the balls to take a dremel and fine grit sand paper to it.
I do see the "Glock" logic and I totally understand its track record for everything you guys have listed. I am not saying the PPQ is better then the Glock, I just think its better for me.
Things I'd change about the PPQ in all honesty... The sights for one and next I would make the slide release smaller, I've been held up a few times because I locked the slide back and or closed it on the last round. I know this is a grip error on my part but it would be nice to change that. I have had no issues finding a great holster for my Q, I use a Blade-tech eclipse for OWB and a N82tactical for IWB. Another thing that bothers me about the Q is if I have a small part break or something that needs to be replaced I cannot just pick it up at my LGS, more like I will be without that gun for a few months and or I am paying out the ass for a part.. Don't even get me started on the mag availability..
The whole, the "Glock " needs it (aftermarket) was just sarcasm. They are great guns and I really enjoy shooting my best buds G19 gen 4, even better is shooting that and my Q side by side, our arguments are funny to say the least. Both guns speak in their own language and if I can say one thing about the PPQ, it came out of nowhere and quickly gained popularity the P99 design has been around for a while but IMO it has not received the review popularity of the PPQ. I myself like the paddle better as well, but I have a M2 Navy on order, and another thing that really PMO about the M2 is the incompatibility of the mags.
Magic_Salad0892
03-17-13, 19:25
I do see the "Glock" logic and I totally understand its track record for everything you guys have listed. I am not saying the PPQ is better then the Glock, I just think its better for me.
Things I'd change about the PPQ in all honesty... The sights for one and next I would make the slide release smaller, I've been held up a few times because I locked the slide back and or closed it on the last round. I know this is a grip error on my part but it would be nice to change that. I have had no issues finding a great holster for my Q, I use a Blade-tech eclipse for OWB and a N82tactical for IWB. The whole, the "Glock " needs it was just sarcasm
Off topic, but I love your signature. I wish I could get the "I am Error." screenshot.
SpankMonkey
03-17-13, 19:29
OP it sounds like you need more training. Glocks are good guns. They offer many advantages that other guns do not.
Just remember its not the gun that matters, it's the man behind it. Get more training.
SylntSleepr
03-17-13, 19:32
Someone's been readin' too much marketing material. They're only perfect to those who have little to no experience with other brands. If they were perfect there wouldn't be so many "upgrades" available in the market.
There are a lot of great pistols on the market and it is great to be able to choose the tool that suits the individual.
Right on with that very last sentence. However, just about EVERY handgun has an upgrade for it to my knowledge. I don't believe ANY firearm is perfect, and like HKGuns states, choose what suits you.
My G30sf suits me just fine. Is it "perfect", no, cuz if it was I wouldn't be gawking at a Kimber. But I do love it and wouldn't trade it for anything.
"Perfect", no. "Best option in today's market place", yes.
Agreed.
Me too!
Here’s what makes a Glock perfect to me:
Reliable
Durable
Accurate
Easy to maintain
Parts are readily available
Parts are reasonably inexpensive
Here’s what makes a Glock suck to me:
It’s feels like I’m holding a 2x4
I swear I can feel my G19 frame flex
I don’t like the way that 2-piece trigger feels under my finger
I can shoot a Glock no better, and no worse than any other pistol.
So I’m left with facts vs. feelings.
I change the stock sights for Trijicons, and the mag release for a Vickers.
I like my Glocks a bunch. They may or may not be "perfect". Doesn't matter to me. They are cheap, mass produced and considering their sheer numbers, reliable as hell. If I "knew" the world were to fall apart tomorrow, I would trust one untested and straight out the box if needed.
acaixguard
03-17-13, 20:21
There's no such thing as a perfect gun. Why? Because no two people are the same, and therefore, a gun that's seemingly tailor made to one person is completely off the mark for another.
While I don't believe Glocks are the best in any one particular area, they are definitely amongst the few pistols that do very well in most areas.
Nephrology
03-17-13, 20:27
I dunno. I just ended up with a glock as the first non-crap pistol I owned, and have been too stubborn and cheap to buy other guns. Seem to shoot better than me.
After thinking about the "perfect gun" a little more, I believe it is the gun that will do what I need it to do, when I need it to do it. I have a bunch of them and they are not all Glocks.
Seems to me the rest is just personal preference. I too have my favorites.
Salamander
03-17-13, 21:03
If Glocks were perfect, people wouldn't need to make texturing alterations to the grip, add a Vickers extended mag release, or other modificaitons. What the Glock does do is provide some very important pistol characteristics in a simple, affordable, reliable, and durable package. So, it becomes a very appealing choice for many shooters.
This.
I'd argue that what Gaston Glock built is the lowest common denominator, a series of affordable guns that (usually) work well enough for a large number of people. It's a mass-market gun in the same way that Chevy or Ford or Toyota sell lots of cars.
They don't work for everyone though, as evidenced by the large number of aftermarket mods available, or the brass in face issue, or just personal preference for less tangible things like ergonomics.
After trying a Glock and apparently getting one that was out on one of the tails of slide tolerances, I've decided that I'm willing to spend more to get exactly what I want. If Glocks work for you, that's great. For me, they don't.
theblackknight
03-17-13, 21:33
Here's more points to consider.
If Glocks were perfect, why is there a rush to buy Gen 1,2,and older Gen 3 glocks at inflated prices? Appears some are more perfect then others.
Also
http://i51.tinypic.com/2lk4dat.jpg
Perfect!
A guy who is a buisness owner in the town I'm from was wearing a glock 23 on his hip the other day when I was in his shop. First time I'd ever seen him with a gun. I asked him why he picked the Glock, he responded that the local PD carried them & they never jam.:suicide2:
Well, with Apex and LWD building extractors, mag releases, slide stops, and beaver tail add ons I'd say they are far from perfect. They can flex so much in the .40's that they cause malfuntions, Glock 19's had phase 2 malfs back in the day, and the .45 models are always avoided by most instructors I know of. The replaceable back straps on the Gen 4 are a joke compared to other manufacturers, plastic sights on a combat gun, a swooping dust cover, finger grooves most would love to see gone, and a frame that needs plugging to keep trash from entering the action . I don't see any advantage they have over a lot of other guns on the market and have never understood why they are the standard. There parts are cheap, but what real life value does this add to a duty gun? Competition shooters and such I can understand, but I've never heard of an officer breaking a trigger spring during a shift and swapping out for a new one while on patrol.
Here's more points to consider.
If Glocks were perfect, why is there a rush to buy Gen 1,2,and older Gen 3 glocks at inflated prices? Appears some are more perfect then others.
Also
http://i51.tinypic.com/2lk4dat.jpg
Perfect!
Perfect post to end the thread.
Here's more points to consider.
If Glocks were perfect, why is there a rush to buy Gen 1,2,and older Gen 3 glocks at inflated prices? Appears some are more perfect then others.
Also
http://i51.tinypic.com/2lk4dat.jpg
Perfect!
Three things wrong with that pic.
1) Wrong sights.
2) Low firing grip.
3) Wrong handed.
:D
I'm hoping the argument was for it not being Ambi friendly, because the sights thing is a poor argument IMO. If *insert any pistol company* offered their models without any sights for $20 less, I'd always pick that option. There isn't a single pistol on the market that comes with sights that I'd want. I'm sure most would agree. I like the "placeholder" concept.
I'm one of those people who actively chooses the Gen 3... for a couple reasons. The trigger is better on the Gen 3's in my opinion (especially the two pin models) and I can chop the grip if desired. If I wasn't tweaking the pistol, I'd be fine with a Gen 4.
Again, when I'm being put on a timer I grab my M&P9. That weapon has a slew of issues apparently... but for me personally it does the best on the timer. In a way, you could say I "prefer it" over Glock. But that still doesn't change my opinion that the 9mm Glocks are the best choice for a defensive firearm when looking at all the factors objectively.
http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv239/BlayGlock/A86AD368-BA82-49D4-BB89-3B9D2D1F3E40-7817-0000077670C633B1.jpg
After I sand papered the trigger guard to prevent glock knuckle, installed the beavertail, swapped out the sights for 10-8s, and put some deck tape on the grip my Glock 19 became "perfect" :)
"Perfect", no. "Best option in today's market place", yes.
You win best answer.
Glocks are far from perfect but they fill their role. They are a simple and inexpensive firearm that is fairly reliable and accurate. That is all. I don't like shooting them. They point very poorly for me and a Glock is the only firearm I have ever owned that has had a catastrophic failure at the range. My trigger pin snapped at the range and the trigger fell out of the gun and landed on the floor.
Glock repaired the gun and I sold it.
They are far from perfect but I can understand why they are so popular. I may actually buy one again.
With regard to the posters original two issues. If you have problems with the grip or trigger gaurd they are easily modifiable to fit your individual needs. I have two Glocks done by Boresight Solutions that are very nice and there are plenty of other places that do similair work. I do all my own now but that takes practice and a little bravery to get started.
As for the mag change issue Bob Vogel uses a Scherer grip plug and says it acts as a mini mag well. A lot of competition shooters do it. I personally don't care for it but it may work for you. If it is not a carry gun you can always throw a full on mag well. Neither are substitutes for training of course. Dry practice a few minutes each day and your issues will likely self correct. Recomend you use dummy rounds to mimic the weight of the loaded magazine and at least put one dummy round on top. Otherwise the follower tends to snag sometimes. You can also get weighted practice magazines from Next Level Training. They use them for their SIRT pistols and you can weight them to match your specific magazine loadout.
Good luck.
Beat Trash
03-18-13, 08:11
Glocks are guns. Guns are tools. The best tool for the job will depend on the job at hand.
Glocks are great guns. But so are the M&P's, and the H&K's, and the Walther PPQ...
You can reach a point where it's a matter of personal preference. Kind of like asking which super model you want to take home with you for a night: the blond, the brunette, or the red-head? It can be a matter of preference. But realize, like the super model's nothing's perfect.
I've carried a Gen 3 Glock 19 as an off-duty gun for about 12 years. It's not perfect. But it brings more positive attributes to the table than any other model of pistol, for my needs.
I choose glock for a reason. Reliable.
A good aftermarket (sights, holsters, mags) was a side effect.
My only real complaint of a glock out of the box are the sights. I wish they would team up with 10-8 performance. :rolleyes:
Magic_Salad0892
03-18-13, 09:31
I'm hoping the argument was for it not being Ambi friendly
As much as I almost agree, this is kind of a non issue when dealing with handguns, as you can still actuate the mag release, and in most cases the slide catch as well.
Glocks aren't the perfect gun, but they provide a base on which you can modify to fit your needs to become your perfect gun.
Wait, you can do this with any pistol. :D
theblackknight
03-18-13, 11:01
Three things wrong with that pic.
1) Wrong sights.
2) Low firing grip.
3) Wrong handed.
:D
I'm hoping the argument was for it not being Ambi friendly, because the sights thing is a poor argument IMO. If *insert any pistol company* offered their models without any sights for $20 less, I'd always pick that option. There isn't a single pistol on the market that comes with sights that I'd want. I'm sure most would agree. I like the "placeholder" concept.
I'm one of those people who actively chooses the Gen 3... for a couple reasons. The trigger is better on the Gen 3's in my opinion (especially the two pin models) and I can chop the grip if desired. If I wasn't tweaking the pistol, I'd be fine with a Gen 4.
Again, when I'm being put on a timer I grab my M&P9. That weapon has a slew of issues apparently... but for me personally it does the best on the timer. In a way, you could say I "prefer it" over Glock. But that still doesn't change my opinion that the 9mm Glocks are the best choice for a defensive firearm when looking at all the factors objectively.
I just recently put 1k thru a(not mine) M&P9 with the factory night sites. They arnt awesome like ameriglos, dawsons, bowies, etc, but they are workable and way better then the glocks.
sent from mah gun,using my sights
BoringGuy45
03-18-13, 14:43
IMO, the "perfect" handgun is the one that:
1) Fits the best in your hands and you shoot the best
2) Is well made (I added this one in case someone comes up with the argument of "Well, what if a Hi-Point or a Taurus fits my hand the best??" :D )
I've shot quite a few different handguns and found that are the most uncomfortable to me and that I'm the most inaccurate with is Glock. With training, I know I would shoot a lot better but for the time being, I don't have to. So to me, Glock is not perfect by a long shot. Nearly perfect as an inexpensive, reliable, accurate, and easy to train with and maintain pistol? Absolutely.
per·fect (pûrfkt)
adj.
1. Lacking nothing essential to the whole; complete of its nature or kind.
2. Being without defect or blemish: a perfect specimen.
3. Thoroughly skilled or talented in a certain field or area; proficient.
4. Completely suited for a particular purpose or situation: She was the perfect actress for the part.
This is not a Glock or any other gun.
WickedWillis
03-18-13, 18:53
The 1st handgun I ever bought was a used Glock 22 gen 3. I got a really good deal on it without ever firing a Glock. I hated that Pistol. It was snappy, my follow up shots were terrible and I was not effective with it at all. I ended up selling it and buying a Springfield XDM 9mm. It was okay. I had issues with the Magazines not feeding rounds properly, and the more I shot it I did not like how high the bore axis was. I went to the range and rented a few guns and decided against my better judgement to give Glock another shot. I rented a 26 and shot the shit out of that gun. It felt good, my groups were right on point and I felt confident with it. I traded my LCR straight across for it and it became my EDC gun. I traded the XDM straight across for a Glock 21 Gen 4 after putting about 100 rounds through a Gen 3. Love it.
Glocks are in no way a perfect gun. The grip angle is weird, the Gen 3 and older mag releases were too small to access with my short fingers, they do not look "sexy". I have come to find out though, with my ever growing firearm knowledge and experience that for the money they are an extremely reliable option. So is the SMith and Wesson M&P. I own Glocks and I carry Glocks every day because I found out the expensive way that they work for me. As many have stated, no gun is perfect for every shooter, and that is so true. The big downside with Glocks now though is the factory sight. Hate it.
Funny...when I go to Mustang sites/forums people say they are great and the best muscle cars. Then when I go to Corvette sites/forums, people say those are the best. Strange.
Nice. Glocks are not really perfection and Chevy's are not really Like a Rock.
Here's more points to consider.
If Glocks were perfect, why is there a rush to buy Gen 1,2,and older Gen 3 glocks at inflated prices? Appears some are more perfect then others.
Also
http://i51.tinypic.com/2lk4dat.jpg
Perfect!
Poeple resist change.
MelloYellow
03-19-13, 01:23
It doesn't matter how fat and ugly your wife is...she is the most beautiful woman in the world through your eyes.
That being said, Glocks are like Olivia Munn.
WickedWillis
03-19-13, 01:30
It doesn't matter how fat and ugly your wife is...she is the most beautiful woman in the world through your eyes.
That being said, Glocks are like Olivia Munn.
Love it!
Well the Glock 19 for me is the perfect handgun. I relly want to get a couple more in my armory.
A lot of people ask me what I would recomend for a first gun and this is what I always tell them: "I recomend you go to a gunstore and look at different models from reputiable manufacturers like Glock, Sig Sauer, H&K and S&W. But my personal favorite is a Glock 19" I even offer to go with them to help them make a decision or go with them to a local range that lets you rent guns and shoot with them.
So far I've only had 4 people who sought my advice not by a Glock. One person bought an XD, one an M&P, one an H&K P30 and one bought a Hi-Point which he latter sold off to get a Glock 23.
Is Glock perfect? No, otherwise they would be the only pistol maker still in business. Does Glock make a good, reliable, hard use weapon for a large consumer market? Absolutely.
Firearms are a very personal choice and there are quite a few manufacurers out there that give consumers lots of options for filling their needs.
If I hadn't grown up a Glock guy and wasn't already well invested in the platform I'd probably have M&P's or an H&K or two. I'd really also like to try the Walther PPQ but I doubt I'd abandon Glock for one of these other platforms.
Well the Glock 19 for me is the perfect handgun. I really want to get a couple more in my armory.
... "I recommend you go to a gun store and look at different models from reputable manufacturers like Glock, Sig, H&K and S&W. But my personal favorite is a Glock 19" I even offer to go with them to help them make a decision or go with them to a local range that lets you rent guns and shoot with them
Is Glock perfect? No, otherwise they would be the only pistol maker still in business. Does Glock make a good, reliable, hard use weapon for a large consumer market? Absolutely.
Totally agree with this. Glocks are popular because they're cheap, reliable, and widely available.
As a relatively new handgun buyer, I went with Glock for a few basic reasons.
First, it's a proven design. Despite the recent Gen 4/new Gen 3 flaws that I've read about, the weapon has a long service life. I knew going into it that, especially with a used pistol (my first Glock), it was probably going to go bang and continue to do so. Sure enough, it has.
Hand in hand with that service life is parts availability. I can find OEM and aftermarket parts for relatively cheap, and they are everywhere. Pretty much everybody makes a Glock holster. Mags are plentiful and, at the time I bought them, fairly inexpensive (OCT2012). Building a supply of standard-cap mags was a priority for me in anticipation of future gun-grabs, and I was fortunate enough to be able to buy six G19 and four G17 mags by Christmas.
Simplicity is another aspect I like. I am not the most mechanically-inclined person out there (just ask my aircraft mechanic father), but I can easily detail-strip the weapon. I was able to modify both of my G19s, to include trigger replacement (G17 smooth trigger, NY1/3.5lb connector, .25 cent trigger job), stippling, trigger guard undercutting, a replacement magazine release, Trijicon HDs, and Grip Force Adapters. Additionally, I like its lack of a mechanical safety -- for a carry gun, I want to pull it out and go. Revolvers, DA/SAs, and striker-fired pistols meet that criteria.
Finally, one thing that Glock does that other pistols do not is offer a pistol in what I consider to be the ideal "do everything" size. The G19/23 frame, for me, is big enough to shoot well yet small enough to conceal. I can use it with a light for HD. It holds an adequate amount of ammunition for its size. Recoil is minimal in the 9mm frame.
It does all of the above for $500. I tried hard not to like it -- my dad is a long-time Glock hater, and thus the only pistols I had any significant time behind (1911, SIG, and CZ-75) were at the top of my list. None of them did everything I wanted them to do. My Glock 19s aren't perfect, but at this time, they're probably as close as I'll get.
This thread has been flowing so well, I can't help but f*ck it up. My first two pistols were a Glock & XD. I shot both for a few years but preferred the XD of the two. I ended up selling the Glock & bought another XD. The XD just fits me better & has never given me a reason to doubt it's quality.
Let you hate flow onto me!!!
No hate. EVERYONE knows an XD isn't perfect.:cool:
No hate. EVERYONE knows an XD isn't perfect.:cool:
I had around 6 xd pistols and those are the pistols I don't regret getting rid of.
Everyone's different. I love 1911s but most people don't, but everyone can agree that m&p's are better than glocks:p.
Phillygunguy
03-21-13, 16:29
I hardly say perfect especially with the BTF issues. That being said I went from glock to M&P to HK, but I still prefer the glock, I don't know why, Oh wait yes I do HK is too damn expensive and hard to find mags for even in these times I still manage to find a couple glock 17 mags M&P accuracy issues I read about with the 9 mm but I still have one in 45, Beretta I think time has come and gone, hate the location of the decocker/safety> Plus I have plenty of money invested in glock with modifications and what not . that and the glock is become as easy to customize as a 1911 so with that I think glock is here to stay at least for me
Perfect? I don't know.
Just go to the Springfield Sponsored Shooting Match.
Or the H&K Armorer's class or advanced armorers class. Should be ton's of slots, real easy to get into.
Or get a bunch of replacement parts from S&W if you are a police department and have a pile of broken guns (like everyone has).
Or walk in to the Walther factory and get them to look over your gun.
About more than just the pistol itself.. Although the product is pretty damn good.
No hate. EVERYONE knows an XD isn't perfect.:cool:
Well played sir! :lol:
I have a glock 17 gen 3 and that light weight sucker just keeps going and going. For 500 bucks i could not be happier with it even if i had payed more for it i would still be happy. Great gun in my humble opinion.
Glocks Perfect?, nope, as others have said there isn't such a thing. That being said, for my intended use, duty and off duty, the Glock 19 pistols work well for me. That is of course after I have modified them to my tastes.
Out of the box, the M&P has an edge, with ergos and especially with the new trigger setup they are running. I found it to be far better than the previous version. The gap between the Glock and M&P is quickly narrowing.
TXPO
Highly trained professionals, various experts, and competion shooters aside, the Glock serves as a suitable choice for mass issue to cops and other security types who may or may not be shooters. I know several farmers, ranchers, country boys, and others who enjoy the Glock and keep one close by. These folks are unaware of stuff needing improvement in the GLK line. The rest of us can choose to modify, tweak, and somtimes screw up a nice pistol, or we might go with an out of the box version. So, it appears that the Glock line has something for most of us. Everybody needs at least one.
Crow Hunter
04-15-13, 06:56
I wouldn't say "Perfect" but I would definitely say Pretty Darn Good.
Where I work, I am known as a "gun guy" people come to me and ask what gun they should buy.
Usually, I recommend the Glock 19.
I tell people to go and get one, if they don't like it or it doesn't work for them, I will buy it from them and they can go get something different.
I have never had to buy one from someone even though I definitely wouldn't mind.:D
define perfect?
Here is my perfect collection:
1911 full size
Ar15
Glock 9mm
Remington 870
I think most of the arguments about this gun or that gun (or any part or modification) is really silly. Assuming a baseline reliability, the advantages that you get from one (modern defensive pistol) to the other in a real world application is so slim as to be non existant. We like to tinker with things, argue about them etc- and we like what we like- but how well any gun does a job depends way more on the user vs the gun itself. There are of course real technological improvements- tritium sights, lights etc.
I carried an M16A2 on two continents and did not feel underarmed. I had to become a civilian and make shooting a hobby before I realized there needed to be so many add ons, variations, doo-dads and variations on doo-dads. I felt quite safe with a Smith 66 for years. I had to see on TV shows, YouTube vids and internet forums how important it was to stipple my grips and put in the Vickers magazine release.
Nephrology
04-17-13, 18:16
Aside from a slightly extended mag release and new sights, I am happy with the glocks as they come. I don't think any other comparable gun from a major manufacturer would be significantly worse but it's what I bought and, maintenance issues aside, all guns are probably going to be better shooters than I ever will be....
that said, maintaining and owning a glock is pretty effin easy. I really do appreciate that. From the shooter's perspective though I think the idea that one gun is more "perfect" than the next (beyond some obvious junk and/or difficult to shoot guns), most of the glock 19 sized 9mm pistols are going to be pretty great at being glock 19 sized 9mm pistols. I think compact, polymer, striker fired has advantages that I enjoy but I am sure I would survive if somebody replaced my glocks with HKs or something.
.46caliber
04-17-13, 18:55
define perfect?
Here is my perfect collection:
1911 full size
Ar15
Glock 9mm
Remington 870
I'm in the same boat. That is a damn solid fighting/defensive foundation. About the only thing I'd possibly change would be to add a 308/300mag/338 bolt gun for longer range needs.
Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk 2
define perfect?
Here is my perfect collection:
1911 full size
Ar15
Glock 9mm
Remington 870
I like this - mine differs slightly:
Glock 21
Glock 27
AR 15
M1 Garand
Benelli M2
Perfect!!! I can't say that but I have enjoyed every Glock I have shot. Though I will they would be about perfect if they cost about a third less "Plastic" should make them cheaper as the RIAs are steel and cost around the same price though I am not comparing the guns just the cost of manufacture and material.
I'm in the same boat. That is a damn solid fighting/defensive foundation. About the only thing I'd possibly change would be to add a 308/300mag/338 bolt gun for longer range needs.
Sent from my PG86100 using Tapatalk 2
I would change the list to 2 Glock 9mms. They are good to have.
Red falcon
04-19-13, 23:00
I'm about 6'4" with pretty large hands, the glock feels very awkward to me in comparison to a 1911. Most gals I know prefer the Glock. YMMV
Fordtough25
04-26-13, 08:08
Through a lot of trial and error I have found that the G19 is my perfect CC weapon, and I enjoy shooting it at the range as a plus. Love my G34 also for fun shooting/target shooting but the G19 is about as close to perfect as I can imagine. I do enjoy shooting other pistols as well such as 1911's and revolvers but my Glock's rock.
Gutshot John
04-26-13, 16:29
If Glocks were perfect, I wouldn't have made the switch to M&P.
If the M&P were perfect, I would have sold my Glocks.
I own both.
Glock, M&P, Springfield, CZ...whatever. They all operate pretty much the same way, I can line up sights, I can squeeze a trigger, mag release is pretty much in the same place. I don't really care that much about the perfect gun. It's like trying to find an honest man.
A gun is a tool. If you're measuring perfection in the gun rather than the shooter you're probably doing it wrong.
My Glock 17 was the "perfect" excuse to learn how to apply epoxy, grind with a dremel, and apply stippling with a wood burning soldering iron to a perfectly functioning impossible to shoot accurately handgun. Now it's pretty darn good. It's honestly too bad that Glock hasn't bothered to invest their profits into developing a grip that doesn't feel like a 2x4 and still use their trigger and slide mechanism. It really wouldn't be that hard, just sub contract it to Walther.
All my Glocks get the same treatment as soon as I get them. Plug, Pro Glo front and Pro Operator rear sights and the Glock OEM extended slide stop and the slide done in CCR's CPII.
Only then are they perfect.
theblackknight
04-27-13, 12:19
I had to see on TV shows, YouTube vids and internet forums how important it was to stipple my grips and put in the Vickers magazine release.
BUY BUY BUY!
Everyone wants what cops shoot and they were the go to pistol in the 90's for police forces, this was the gun that got everyone swithed from revolvers. Not even the 1911 accomplished this. How many of us order a Coke at a restaurant and really just mean a brown colored soda. It's called brand recognition. Nothing is perfect
If Glocks were perfect, I wouldn't have made the switch to M&P.
^ :D
PA PATRIOT
04-27-13, 17:28
Glock hit the height of reliability with the Second Generation (Big Tab) Models 17/19 but once they started to screw a round with the design all they perfected was problems.
The only Glocks past the 2nd Gen which were worth the same respect reliability wise was the very early 3rd Gen Model 26 and 34.
Glock hit the height of reliability with the Second Generation (Big Tab) Models 17/19 but once they started to screw a round with the design all they perfected was problems.
The only Glocks past the 2nd Gen which were worth the same respect reliability wise was the very early 3rd Gen Model 26 and 34.
I have no idea what you are talking about as far as reliability goes. I have shot every generation of glock and gen 3 and 4 (including later gen 3's) extensively. I have seen hundreds of shooters shoot theirs extensively. I have rarely seen an issue that wasn't shooter induced.
Gen 4's have had issues coming out of the gate but most issues have been resolved. I don't like how it went down with gen 4's but at least glock eventually got the issues resolved.
I have never seen an unreliable glock although I know there were a few gen 4's with issues.
What the hell do you consider reliable? Maybe I am misinterpreting what you are trying to say, if so, I apologize.
I've been doing a lot of research and reading a lot of forums about Glocks lately, and I've seen a recurring theme on pretty much every website. Every where I look it seems the opinion of almost everyone is that Glocks are the perfect gun.
While I do think Glocks are great guns, I would hardly say that they're perfect and from what I've read on this site I believe that most here would agree. Glocks are accurate and reliable, but I've noticed while shooting mine that there are little things that just don't fit well for me. For example, I've noticed that the outside of the trigger guard starts to dig into my hand as I shoot. I've also noticed that the bevel in the mag well doesn't really help me line up the magazine. Actually, at times I feel like it's hurt me more than it helps. More than once while trying to reload quickly I've dropped a magazine on the deck because it doesn't line up with the mag well perfectly.
So, when I started looking for ideas on how to fix these things or to see if anyone else has had similar issues all I can usually find is "Glocks are perfect there's no reason to ever change anything on them." Has anyone else had experiences like this, both with people and with finding these guns are perfect and need...tweaking just like everything else?
I'm asking on this forum because from what I've read this site usually has the most practical views on how things should or shouldn't work. Also, it seems like most people on here don't buy hype, they want real world proof that things are what they claim to be.
Thanks in advance
I have not taken the time to read every comment but I would like to address the issues you are talking about.
That sore spot where your hand meets the bottom of the trigger guard is a noted issue for folks with soft hands. Three options: File the spot down slightly (I wouldn't), put some mole skin or medical tape on the affected area of your hand (decent option), or man the **** up and let the area callouse. On the day, you are not going to shoot high enough volume for this to matter so you just need to correct this issue for range training. If you have soft and sensitive hands, the tape is probably a good option for you and it doesn't take anything away from training.
The magazine issue you are having has to be a training issue. I have never experienced this. Your magazine holder should allow you to get good purchase on the magazine. Also, inserting a square peg into a square hole isn't the easiest skill. Slow down right before you insert the magazine and make sure you are completely palm-up in your workstation (allows you to see into magwell for a split second).
No gun is perfect for everyone. Glock is trying to accommodate smaller and larger shooters with their gen 4 guns. The new beavertail option minimizes interference with the slide for gloved use and prevents slide bite for folks with larger hands in certain variations of the modern grip. All of these options (and there are others obviously) allow the shooter to adapt the gun to his or her hand rather than adapt their grip to the gun. But still, unless you have a gun custom made for you specifically, no gun will ever be perfect.
They are not perfect. Their ergos leave a lot to be desired and is the reason for aftermarket modifications such as Grip Force Adaptors, Vickers slide stop, Vickers mag release, backstrap modifications, etc. Most people would say that the P30, PPQ, and M&P have better ergos.
There are also more accurate and reliable polymer pistols such as the P30.
That they bring to the table is a hard to beat combination of low cost, above average accuracy, decent trigger, excellent durability / reliability, modularity, and a ton of aftermarket support. Add this all together and the G17/19 becomes the best value in the business...but it is not perfect.
The_War_Wagon
04-28-13, 15:08
As opposed to... the Dardick Model 1500 - and it's trounds? :lol:
They are not perfect. Their ergos leave a lot to be desired and is the reason for aftermarket modifications such as Grip Force Adaptors, Vickers slide stop, Vickers mag release, backstrap modifications, etc. Most people would say that the P30, PPQ, and M&P have better ergos.
There are also more accurate and reliable polymer pistols such as the P30.
That they bring to the table is a hard to beat combination of low cost, above average accuracy, decent trigger, excellent durability / reliability, modularity, and a ton of aftermarket support. Add this all together and the G17/19 becomes the best value in the business...but it is not perfect.
Side by side torture test (little less than half way down the page). USP compact, not exactly a a P30, but pretty close. Pretty cool that these guys got enough time on their hands to abuse stuff so vigorously.
ETA, I own and am real happy with both a USP 45 and G21 so I'm not really biased, but this does show where a Glock shines.
http://theprepared.com/content/view/90//administrator/
brushy bill
04-28-13, 17:13
Side by side torture test (little less than half way down the page). USP compact, not exactly a a P30, but pretty close. Pretty cool that these guys got enough time on their hands to abuse stuff so vigorously.
ETA, I own and am real happy with both a USP 45 and G21 so I'm not really biased, but this does show where a Glock shines.
http://theprepared.com/content/view/90//administrator/
Sample of 1. Vicker's testing involved a Glock and HK and wound up with very different results.
Mine are perfect for me and that's all that matters to me. :D
Side by side torture test (little less than half way down the page). USP compact, not exactly a a P30, but pretty close. Pretty cool that these guys got enough time on their hands to abuse stuff so vigorously.
ETA, I own and am real happy with both a USP 45 and G21 so I'm not really biased, but this does show where a Glock shines.
http://theprepared.com/content/view/90//administrator/
I started to do similar tests, but I locked up my G17 so tight after pouring 80 grit sand onto it that it took several minutes to wash enough out of it to get it disassembled. It's all about how you pour the sand in ;) Do it from the back side and it will filter into places you never imagined. Oddly, the much maligned XDm was able to cycle, albeit roughly...even with that evil grip safety.
I bought my G19 new in early 2005. It was made in 2004...thousands of rounds later i have had one stove pipe and it was while shooting weak hand on the move.'
Thats a better record than my sig p225
Sample of 1. Vicker's testing involved a Glock and HK and wound up with very different results.
Please post the link.
I started to do similar tests, but I locked up my G17 so tight after pouring 80 grit sand onto it that it took several minutes to wash enough out of it to get it disassembled. It's all about how you pour the sand in ;) Do it from the back side and it will filter into places you never imagined. Oddly, the much maligned XDm was able to cycle, albeit roughly...even with that evil grip safety.
Lol, yeah, I guess none of these type tests are truely scientific in nature. I do like seeing how much abuse stuff can take. The Vickers DD tests are awesome. Sticking with AimPiont after seeing those!
They are not perfect. Their ergos leave a lot to be desired and is the reason for aftermarket modifications such as Grip Force Adaptors, Vickers slide stop, Vickers mag release, backstrap modifications, etc. Most people would say that the P30, PPQ, and M&P have better ergos.
There are also more accurate and reliable polymer pistols such as the P30.
That they bring to the table is a hard to beat combination of low cost, above average accuracy, decent trigger, excellent durability / reliability, modularity, and a ton of aftermarket support. Add this all together and the G17/19 becomes the best value in the business...but it is not perfect.
I never found the P30 to be more accurate than my G19.
My P30's are more accurate than my Gen 3 Glock 9's, but I can tell no difference in accuracy between the P30 and my Gen 4 9's.
In all of my wheeling and dealing over the years the only guns I have consitently regretted trading were Glock 19s.
They aren't perfect but they do lots of things really well for the price.
If Glocks were perfect, I wouldn't have made the switch to M&P.
If the M&P were perfect, I would have sold my Glocks.
Not perfect, but the PPQ is getting pretty darn close in my book for a 9mm!
I never found the P30 to be more accurate than my G19.
Don't worry, your not alone. Most people can't tell the difference since our ability is the limiting factor. Put both guns in a rest and see what happens at 25 yards. Yes, there are some people that notice this difference. No, I'm not one of them either...;)
Don't worry, your not alone. Most people can't tell the difference since our ability is the limiting factor. Put both guns in a rest and see what happens at 25 yards. Yes, there are some people that notice this difference. No, I'm not one of them either...;)
Good points. My G19 is a Gen3. I want to compare it to my buddy's Gen4.
Hogsgunwild
04-30-13, 06:28
Not perfect, but the PPQ is getting pretty darn close in my book for a 9mm!
+1
I agree. Buy PPQ. Put night sights on it. Shoot shit.
So much less hassle.
Nephrology
04-30-13, 06:34
+1
I agree. Buy PPQ. Put night sights on it. Shoot shit.
So much less hassle.
This is what most people do with their guns. Glocks, M&Ps, SIGs, whatever - thats all you really need to do. Everything else is extra, beyond parts breakage they all run fine out of the box without intervention.
For all of the flapping about how glocks "need" this and that, I've done plenty of fussing with all kinds of aftermarket parts - GFA, different trigger weights, you name it. Everything outside of stippling I've tried. All of my Glocks are now exactly as they came from the factory, with the addition of a pair of Ameriglo Hacks.
brushy bill
04-30-13, 06:52
Please post the link.
I can’t find the original as I believe it was removed.
That said, this link has it excerpted by a guy who says he saved it and posted it there:
http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-handgun-talk/114310-interesting-glock-21-hk-usp-test.html
This link has some follow up comments posted by LAV
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=11788
Google "vickers sand test glock" if you want more.
Hogsgunwild
04-30-13, 07:16
This is what most people do with their guns. Glocks, M&Ps, SIGs, whatever - thats all you really need to do. Everything else is extra, beyond parts breakage they all run fine out of the box without intervention.
For all of the flapping about how glocks "need" this and that, I've done plenty of fussing with all kinds of aftermarket parts - GFA, different trigger weights, you name it. Everything outside of stippling I've tried. All of my Glocks are now exactly as they came from the factory, with the addition of a pair of Ameriglo Hacks.
I had a Glock or two that I pimped out with aftermarket mods. In recent years, I have also come to prefer leaving them in the stock configuration except for the sights and trigger. Just shot my new Gen 4 G20 a few days ago. Very nice 25 yard groups. I think that changing it's sights and trigger will make it perfect for me.
Nephrology
04-30-13, 07:27
I had a Glock or two that I pimped out with aftermarket mods. In recent years, I have also come to prefer leaving them in the stock configuration except for the sights and trigger. Just shot my new Gen 4 G20 a few days ago. Very nice 25 yard groups. I think that changing it's sights and trigger will make it perfect for me.
Even the trigger is something you can very easily learn, I think. It's a bit on the heavy side, but nothing wrong with that for combat shooting.
Hogsgunwild
04-30-13, 12:59
The trigger is fine, but, for more of a sporting gun like the G20, I prefer the light trigger as it mimics the feel of my PPQs (even though they are 5.6 pound triggers).
I am pretty anal about my trigger discipline which is the only reason I carry the PPQs and P99 AS compacts. If I were pointing my gun at people a lot like some LEOs have to, I would be happier with a stock Glock trigger, a DA/SA or a LEM set-up.
This is what most people do with their guns. Glocks, M&Ps, SIGs, whatever - thats all you really need to do. Everything else is extra, beyond parts breakage they all run fine out of the box without intervention.
For all of the flapping about how glocks "need" this and that, I've done plenty of fussing with all kinds of aftermarket parts - GFA, different trigger weights, you name it. Everything outside of stippling I've tried. All of my Glocks are now exactly as they came from the factory, with the addition of a pair of Ameriglo Hacks.
Big difference between choosing to accessorize with the "you gotta have add-ons" and telling someone that to get their brand new pistol to work right they need to change extractor, barrel, etc. Easily dump 15-25% of the purchase price to fix something the factory should address.
Glock is in my state. Too many dealers selling gen 4's, but will privately tell you they have switched away for personal carry, and are concerned that G may have jumped the shark as they can't seem to get the recent problems addressed.
It varies by pistol, but even some of the Gen 3's are seeing issues, though less.
For now, G's are easy sales. But when the hassle of customers coming back becomes an issue... watch out. Majority of Glock buyers in our area are 1st time purchasers based on the name. And never shoot them enough to see the problems.
The LEO and current/ex mil users tend not to buy from local stores due to blue label.
I'd consider older G19's. But when beater police trade in G19's are running 75% of the price of a PPQ? Minimal warranty, vs new gun warranty?
Not saying there are not good Glocks out there. I just see too much evidence that you cannot count on getting a "Good" Glock now. And not great cust service from G if you do have problems.
Nephrology
04-30-13, 17:41
Big difference between choosing to accessorize with the "you gotta have add-ons" and telling someone that to get their brand new pistol to work right they need to change extractor, barrel, etc. Easily dump 15-25% of the purchase price to fix something the factory should address.
I understand the panic about Glocks, M&Ps, SIGs, etc, but I think it is by and large an overblown concern. Whenever you buy anything - a gun, a computer, a car, whatever - you run the risk that something is going to be wrong with it. That is why you buy from companies with good reputations and good quality service. To go into buying a Glock or n M&P and saying "Oh no, now I ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO buy [insert part of overexaggerated weakness here]" is horse hockey. If your gun doesnt work, you should call the factory and have them do you right. Buying a lemon that is a risk you run with every gun, even $2k Wilson Combat 1911s. I don't think it is something that is fair to assume you'll get one for sure, though,, no matter how rabid the internet rumors may be.
I understand the panic about Glocks, M&Ps, SIGs, etc, but I think it is by and large an overblown concern. Whenever you buy anything - a gun, a computer, a car, whatever - you run the risk that something is going to be wrong with it.
So you've bought a Glock in the last couple years or so? Gen 4? Pleased with it? :)
There is a difference between the occasional issue and a class problem. When a mfg changes design / construction that creates a class problem, I have a hard time calling it perfect.
One of my super compact carry guns made a trip back to the factory to resolve an issue. Handled under warranty, and not a penny out of my pocket. It's good now.
I was not pleased it had the issue, but I'm OK with the result, and it filled a need that other models did not at the time.
But I'd never call a pistol with a class problem, where many or most required trips to the factory or aftermarket parts, a perfect gun. From Glock or anyone else.
Nephrology
04-30-13, 22:02
So you've bought a Glock in the last couple years or so? Gen 4? Pleased with it? :)
There is a difference between the occasional issue and a class problem. When a mfg changes design / construction that creates a class problem, I have a hard time calling it perfect.
One of my super compact carry guns made a trip back to the factory to resolve an issue. Handled under warranty, and not a penny out of my pocket. It's good now.
I was not pleased it had the issue, but I'm OK with the result, and it filled a need that other models did not at the time.
But I'd never call a pistol with a class problem, where many or most required trips to the factory or aftermarket parts, a perfect gun. From Glock or anyone else.
My most recent Glock is a 2009 Gen 3 17 which is fine. I have several good friends who have bought gen 4s (2 17s and a 19) and they have collectively many thousands through them and have reported no issues.
If you want to squabble over anecdotal evidence regarding this gun or that, thats fine. I think anyone out there with Google can find a gun they are interested in and figure out which ones might have fleas, but my point was that this issue is not unique to any particular company, model, or period of manufacture. You should always do your homework on a specific gun, and accept the risk that you might not be buying one that will work 100%.
If your definition of "perfect" means "contractually obliged to work flawlessly out of the box 100 times out of 100" then you will be disappointed. I am suggesting that Glocks hit a "perfect" intersection of price, durability, reliability, and performance and work great for many people. Do they have problems? Yes. Mine have broken parts and experienced feedway malfunctions; even the supposedly legendarily reliable gen 3 19s and 17s. But if you want to suggest that perfection relies in being always 100% problem free then you cannot really put any modern firearms manufacturer up to that standard and expect to be satisfied. There is a reason these companies have customer service centers. If you have to use it, they'll take care of you. If they don't, there are plenty of other companies out there who would love you to buy their pistol.
Failure2Stop
05-01-13, 06:36
The point at which you claim an item to be "perfect" you condemn it to obsolescence.
There is no perfect, only levels of suitability and acceptability.
Glocks are not my favorite pistol, but I use them primarily because they are what I most frequently encounter. What I can do with a G19 with no upgrades I expect others to do with their custom (fill in the blank) with aftermarket (fill in the blank) that cost them (fill in monthly rent, multiply as appropriate).
Before trying to find the perfect pistol, first try to find the perfect trigger press, the perfect presentation, the perfect sight tracking, and the perfect grip. These will do far more for you over a lifetime of shooting than a pistol with a limited lifespan built to the lowest common denominator by people that couldn't pass a basic NRA pistol course.
Before trying to find the perfect pistol, first try to find the perfect trigger press, the perfect presentation, the perfect sight tracking, and the perfect grip. These will do far more for you over a lifetime of shooting than a pistol with a limited lifespan built to the lowest common denominator by people that couldn't pass a basic NRA pistol course.
I couldn't have said it better myself - best answer...bravo.. you win!!!
DAVID RICHARDS
05-01-13, 08:13
Glock knows damn well their is a problem with the guns. From the first release when they didn't allow enough room in the new GEN4's frames and the RSA was shaving plastic off the frame. It tells you how much effort and testing they put into the new design. Nobody noticed the new RSA didn't fit the frame properly before the guns left the factory somewhere in the engineering or QC process?
How about the things we all know. Multiple RSA redesigns. Starting with a .40 RSA in a 9mm gun. Shit I could of told them that wouldn't work without any testing. Remember when the .40 first came out and Glock tried like many others to just take a 9mm and put a different barrel and RSA in teir guns to make a .40. w all know how well that worked. What made them think the opposite would work. DUH! The 9mm and .40 have different pressure curves. When you fire +P or +P+ ammo you get closer to the .40's pressure and it causes a gun designed t work with a .40 to sometimes work better. imagine that.
MIM extractors didn't work for Colt or Kimber. Wy should they fo a Glock. Yes if done right they have 98% of the strength of forged parts. Either the high usage extractor is not strong enough in it's MIM form or it's been soft for several companies besides a Glock. Tolerences are all over the place on these parts. Glock will replace parts, send you new guns, and blah, blah, blah,....! But they don't know their is a problem? And the latest new part is the non-dipped extractor that does work better but how long it lasts is still an issue.
What I've seen is a lot of new buyers who don't shoot enough rounds for problems to show up. Or don't even realize their gun should not beat them about the head and body with brass. So they never realize anything is "wrong". And as long as people keep buying the guns in mass Glock won't really solve the problem. To much invested in the new process I guess. To much increase in the profit margin to warrant a change.
My PPQ has been perfect right from the box. Great ergo's and trigger. Laser like accurate. No brass to the brain or weak ejection. And my older Glocks work fine. They screwed the pooch folks. Some of them are better now with some of the "upgrades". But still with the new ones the thought of hot brass in one of my eyes when things go bad is unacceptable. Some say you won't notice it in a gunfight. So you won't notice losing half your eyesight in a gunfight? What a crock. Get the PPQ and don't even deal with some of the shit some of us have.
Glock knows damn well their is a problem with the guns. From the first release when they didn't allow enough room in the new GEN4's frames and the RSA was shaving plastic off the frame. It tells you how much effort and testing they put into the new design. Nobody noticed the new RSA didn't fit the frame properly before the guns left the factory somewhere in the engineering or QC process?
How about the things we all know. Multiple RSA redesigns. Starting with a .40 RSA in a 9mm gun. Shit I could of told them that wouldn't work without any testing. Remember when the .40 first came out and Glock tried like many others to just take a 9mm and put a different barrel and RSA in teir guns to make a .40. w all know how well that worked. What made them think the opposite would work. DUH! The 9mm and .40 have different pressure curves. When you fire +P or +P+ ammo you get closer to the .40's pressure and it causes a gun designed t work with a .40 to sometimes work better. imagine that.
MIM extractors didn't work for Colt or Kimber. Wy should they fo a Glock. Yes if done right they have 98% of the strength of forged parts. Either the high usage extractor is not strong enough in it's MIM form or it's been soft for several companies besides a Glock. Tolerences are all over the place on these parts. Glock will replace parts, send you new guns, and blah, blah, blah,....! But they don't know their is a problem? And the latest new part is the non-dipped extractor that does work better but how long it lasts is still an issue.
What I've seen is a lot of new buyers who don't shoot enough rounds for problems to show up. Or don't even realize their gun should not beat them about the head and body with brass. So they never realize anything is "wrong". And as long as people keep buying the guns in mass Glock won't really solve the problem. To much invested in the new process I guess. To much increase in the profit margin to warrant a change.
My PPQ has been perfect right from the box. Great ergo's and trigger. Laser like accurate. No brass to the brain or weak ejection. And my older Glocks work fine. They screwed the pooch folks. Some of them are better now with some of the "upgrades". But still with the new ones the thought of hot brass in one of my eyes when things go bad is unacceptable. Some say you won't notice it in a gunfight. So you won't notice losing half your eyesight in a gunfight? What a crock. Get the PPQ and don't even deal with some of the shit some of us have.
Call me self centered but all my glocks work as advertised and that's were my concern begins and ends.
Darn, darn, darn -- you mean it is the Indian and not the arrow, and you can't buy proficiency?
Kidding aside, I have spent effort at shooting the Glock, HK, M&P, and Sig platforms over the years, and shoot them all so close as to make the difference an inconsequential increment. Pick the one that has the feature set you want and learn to shoot it to your potential.
Nephrology
05-01-13, 13:28
Glock knows damn well their is a problem with the guns. From the first release when they didn't allow enough room in the new GEN4's frames and the RSA was shaving plastic off the frame. It tells you how much effort and testing they put into the new design. Nobody noticed the new RSA didn't fit the frame properly before the guns left the factory somewhere in the engineering or QC process?
How about the things we all know. Multiple RSA redesigns. Starting with a .40 RSA in a 9mm gun. Shit I could of told them that wouldn't work without any testing. Remember when the .40 first came out and Glock tried like many others to just take a 9mm and put a different barrel and RSA in teir guns to make a .40. w all know how well that worked. What made them think the opposite would work. DUH! The 9mm and .40 have different pressure curves. When you fire +P or +P+ ammo you get closer to the .40's pressure and it causes a gun designed t work with a .40 to sometimes work better. imagine that.
MIM extractors didn't work for Colt or Kimber. Wy should they fo a Glock. Yes if done right they have 98% of the strength of forged parts. Either the high usage extractor is not strong enough in it's MIM form or it's been soft for several companies besides a Glock. Tolerences are all over the place on these parts. Glock will replace parts, send you new guns, and blah, blah, blah,....! But they don't know their is a problem? And the latest new part is the non-dipped extractor that does work better but how long it lasts is still an issue.
What I've seen is a lot of new buyers who don't shoot enough rounds for problems to show up. Or don't even realize their gun should not beat them about the head and body with brass. So they never realize anything is "wrong". And as long as people keep buying the guns in mass Glock won't really solve the problem. To much invested in the new process I guess. To much increase in the profit margin to warrant a change.
My PPQ has been perfect right from the box. Great ergo's and trigger. Laser like accurate. No brass to the brain or weak ejection. And my older Glocks work fine. They screwed the pooch folks. Some of them are better now with some of the "upgrades". But still with the new ones the thought of hot brass in one of my eyes when things go bad is unacceptable. Some say you won't notice it in a gunfight. So you won't notice losing half your eyesight in a gunfight? What a crock. Get the PPQ and don't even deal with some of the shit some of us have.
None of this is particularly news to anybody. What you haven't addressed is the point that more than one company has had egg on their face for more or less the same reason (M&P9 accuracy + rust issues, and, well, everything SIG Exeter has done).
My point remains the same. Pick a company known to make good, reliable firearms. Do your homework on which models and batches are known to be good and which are known to be not so good. Try to find one that is good. If it still doesn't work, either have the company try to fix it or move on. For my money, a used Glock is still the best gun you can buy for the price. With the panic and all who knows.
It's not a very complicated formula. No reason to get vindictive about it. I am sorry that Glocks upset you so much. Hopefully you will feel less victimized by them in the future.
None of this is particularly news to anybody. What you haven't addressed is the point that more than one company has had egg on their face for more or less the same reason (M&P9 accuracy + rust issues, and, well, everything SIG Exeter has done).
My point remains the same. Pick a company known to make good, reliable firearms. Do your homework on which models and batches are known to be good and which are known to be not so good. Try to find one that is good. If it still doesn't work, either have the company try to fix it or move on. For my money, a used Glock is still the best gun you can buy for the price. With the panic and all who knows.
All reasonable points.... If the thread was titled "Picking a better than average pistol"
But it's not, it's "Glocks: The Perfect gun??"
FTS is right, and it's an unrealistic expectation.
I think a pretty good case could have been made a decade ago that Glock could have been as close as has been made to a perfect service pistol. At least relative to the competition. They were appliances, the Volvo or Mercedes of the shooting world. :)
Sadly, that is clearly not the case now, as this type of stuff is beyond anecdotal:
http://m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=1630313&postcount=75
It's enough locally that dealers are feeling the heat with returns & issues with customers. (But we are in a very heavy Glock centric area)
Love em if you want, even with current issues. But it's sad to me to watch a stellar product & reputation flounder. Would not be the first, won't be the last.
So to the OP's question my answer would be: "Not anymore, YMMV"
DAVID RICHARDS
05-01-13, 23:51
I won't disagree one bit that you are seeing a lot of formely wonderful pistols suddenly having way too many problems. I have several old Glocks and a half dozen SIG's that you can't get to not shoot. For the past couple of years some real turds have come from both companies. And a few more. That's what makes it a real bear. I always appreciated my Glocks for what they were. A tough, reliable, tool that worked everytime at a reasonable price. The SIG's were always among the best guns out there. Just hate seeing how far so many great gun companies have fallen.
I think most of the arguments about this gun or that gun (or any part or modification) is really silly. Assuming a baseline reliability, the advantages that you get from one (modern defensive pistol) to the other in a real world application is so slim as to be non existant. We like to tinker with things, argue about them etc- and we like what we like- but how well any gun does a job depends way more on the user vs the gun itself. There are of course real technological improvements- tritium sights, lights etc.
I carried an M16A2 on two continents and did not feel underarmed. I had to become a civilian and make shooting a hobby before I realized there needed to be so many add ons, variations, doo-dads and variations on doo-dads. I felt quite safe with a Smith 66 for years. I had to see on TV shows, YouTube vids and internet forums how important it was to stipple my grips and put in the Vickers magazine release.
Amen brother, couldn't have said it any better myself. Way too much "monkey see, monkey do!" going on in todays world.
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o299/sixguns_/DSC00179.jpg
Oh the humanity!! An sa/da combo with a decocking lever, what ever will we do to figure out all of this complexity :eek: I was blessed at birth with being able to walk and chew gum at the same time so I figured out how to make it go boom.:p
I tried to like Glocks and shot friends guns, but couldn't get past the feeling of having a barb wire covered board in my hand. The Glock (for me) was the most unnatural feeling pistol in my hand I'd ever shot. Also, that fact that the slide was removing skin from the webbing between my thumb and finger didn't help matters. I did however watch Vickers video on Glocks and noted that there is a fix for the skin shaving problem.
I've also never liked the idea of a plastic gun, but may have to get over that if I want to upgrade to a modern pistol. I looked at trying to upgrade from my old reliable .40 Tactical, but just can't seem to find the right fit for me.
NeoNeanderthal
05-05-13, 14:48
Glocks are not my favorite pistol, but I use them primarily because they are what I most frequently encounter. What I can do with a G19 with no upgrades I expect others to do with their custom (fill in the blank) with aftermarket (fill in the blank) that cost them (fill in monthly rent, multiply as appropriate).
Whats your favorite pistol?
brushy bill
05-05-13, 14:49
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o299/sixguns_/DSC00179.jpg
Nice. I had a 4056 TSW (steel frame version sans safety). Great pistol, but it was just too heavy for what it was, especially for EDC. I was also gradually consolidating to a single platform in the same caliber for logistical reasons (holsters, magazine, parts, ammo, etc) so it went.
If Glocks were perfect, people wouldn't need to make texturing alterations to the grip, add a Vickers extended mag release, or other modificaitons. What the Glock does do is provide some very important pistol characteristics in a simple, affordable, reliable, and durable package. So, it becomes a very appealing choice for many shooters.
Very well put.. I had to make some frame modifications for it to be "perfect" for me
I recently revised my carry Gen 3 G19 by returning it to the factory standard magazine release from the Vickers model due to getting repeated inadvertent mag releases while carrying it IWB. I've got two other Gen 3's that have done the same but I haven't changed them back yet.
So I sort of made it "more perfect" for me; then did a U'ey and went back to simple perfection. ;)
I recently revised my carry Gen 3 G19 by returning it to the factory standard magazine release from the Vickers model due to getting repeated inadvertent mag releases while carrying it IWB. I've got two other Gen 3's that have done the same but I haven't changed them back yet.
So I sort of made it "more perfect" for me; then did a U'ey and went back to simple perfection. ;)
Why not just get a properly designed holster that covers the mag release?
Off of the top of my head i have never had to extract a magazine from a holstered firearm except when on the range performing administrative tasks.
I recently revised my carry Gen 3 G19 by returning it to the factory standard magazine release from the Vickers model due to getting repeated inadvertent mag releases while carrying it IWB. I've got two other Gen 3's that have done the same but I haven't changed them back yet.
So I sort of made it "more perfect" for me; then did a U'ey and went back to simple perfection. ;)
I've been carrying my Glock 19 with Vicker's controls for years, and have never had this problem. Sounds like a holster issue.
Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2
Why not just get a properly designed holster that covers the mag release?
Off of the top of my head i have never had to extract a magazine from a holstered firearm except when on the range performing administrative tasks.
Fair point.
I just saw a big debate over covered or not covered the other day on PF. I can't say which side won the day on that.
I like my carry system a good bit with a combination of holsters that provide quick removal which is a priority to me.
My JM Custom covers it well and I've never had it occur with AIWB using that or a VG2 either but I don't carry AIWB universally. OTOH none of my several FIST and several Milt Sparks holsters do.
I actually was very slow to adopt this TD part as I don't shoot with gloves and I've long digits and never saw the need until Gen 4's mag release spoiled me. However as far as the timer showed, that was all in my head.
If I had to have them for reach or gloves reason, then yeah, that's the smart play.
Now same IWB holsters with Gen 4's stock, never seen the phenom occur.
I've been carrying my Glock 19 with Vicker's controls for years, and have never had this problem. Sounds like a holster issue.
Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2
A compatibility issue between the part and IWB carry with my holsters, sure.
Editted to add none of my Milt Sparks holsters cover the mag release either FWIW.
IMHO with weak ejection and BTF issues in some glocks they are not the AK-47 of the pistol world
30 cal slut
05-13-13, 08:56
I'm finding that Glocks of the same model and caliber can have their own "personalities."
I can't quite put my finger on it.
If I have several Gen 2 and 3 Glock 17's all with the same mods (sights, connnector, mag release, slide release, grip plug), they'll each shoot a bit differently at 25 yards. I won't rule out inconsistency in the shooter, of course.
If they all shot the "same," they'd be "perfect" enough for me. ;)
No real complaints, though. Tupperware striker-fired goodness is here to stay.
Clyde from Carolina
05-13-13, 12:40
I'm finding that Glocks of the same model and caliber can have their own "personalities."
I can't quite put my finger on it.
If I have several Gen 2 and 3 Glock 17's all with the same mods (sights, connnector, mag release, slide release, grip plug), they'll each shoot a bit differently at 25 yards. I won't rule out inconsistency in the shooter, of course.
If they all shot the "same," they'd be "perfect" enough for me. ;)
No real complaints, though. Tupperware striker-fired goodness is here to stay.
Yep. I don't know about perfect but they are here to stay. A good one is a very good gun.
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