View Full Version : First pics Civilian HK416 go public
variablebinary
03-19-08, 02:32
HKpro got civilian 416 pics up...for the German model at least...
http://www.hkpro.com/mr223iwa.jpg
More pics here
http://www.hkpro.com/mr223.htm
The downside...The rear pushpin has been relocated 6 mm forward to prevent installation of HK416 upper, or MR223 on HK416 lower.
Lets hope Wilcox does not do this to the USA civilian model...
The downside is that they want over $4K for it.
I guess with so many folks willing to pay $4500 for an upper HK figures they'll sell boatloads of complete guns for the same price.:rolleyes:
HK gave you the USC and SL8...why wouldn't they neuter the civvy 416, too?
variablebinary
03-19-08, 04:24
The downside is that they want over $4K for it.
I guess with so many folks willing to pay $4500 for an upper HK figures they'll sell boatloads of complete guns for the same price.:rolleyes:
HK gave you the USC and SL8...why wouldn't they neuter the civvy 416, too?
HK isnt importing the 416. Wilcox is making it here in the USA.
The only reason the Sl8 and USC are in their sporter config is import laws
Since they are being made in the USA the $4500 currency conversion isnt valid either
We'll see. The sell their polymer handguns for twice what everyone else does, why not do it to ARs also, since the market will support it. Guys still pay $4500 for uppers, and they don't last long.
At least since they already have a design for a standard-sized version in the 416 there is hope. Nothing HK does in regards to civilian sales surprises me, though.
I got to play with one again last week. It was overly heavy and the front handguard had some wobble to it even with the two locking screws fully tightened. I wasn't very impressed. That being said, if they can get a complete rifle to market for under $2K I'll probably give it a try.
Stephen
The rear pushpin has been relocated 6 mm forward to prevent installation of HK416 upper, or MR223 on HK416 lower.
Non-standard for no compelling reason?
Bah.
Non-standard for no compelling reason?
Bah.
That's the German civvie version, and most likely done to comply with some German law.
For under $2000 sign me up.
Who wants to bet some PMAGS that it will cost more?
I certainly expect the U.S. built 416's to cost over $2000 since its U.S. "competitors" cost that much. Though I suspect many of them will be raising their prices shortly considering they are talking about new features & barrels in an attempt to keep up with the HK416. I assume this will eventually drive up their prices.
I would not even pay attention to the European prices, that has nothing to do with the Wilcox U.S. built guns.
Better yet, who wants to bet whether those PMAGS will fit correctly in the HK416 magwell...
OK, any takers on $3K plus, MSRP? :D
I like the 416, and would gladly take one. I want one badly, and have since I saw my first one 4 years ago. I think it has it's strengths and weaknesses, though. I don't trust HK, either.
I got to play with one again last week. It was overly heavy and the front handguard had some wobble to it even with the two locking screws fully tightened. I wasn't very impressed. That being said, if they can get a complete rifle to market for under $2K I'll probably give it a try.
Stephen
There's only one locking screw on the 416's handguard.
HK moved the rear takedown pin hole 6mm forward to meet German requirements to allow the weapon to be legal for purchase. Since HK will be making the US versions stateside, I don't think it's something to be concerned about. I do, however, hope they chamber the US versions in 5.56 NATO instead of .223 Remington (which the German version is chambered in).
Tspeis
variablebinary
03-19-08, 13:12
$2300 is my prediction for a complete factory USA 416 with BUIS
Nice, however I see HK forgot to add the grey butthole stock! :D
I got to play with one again last week. It was overly heavy and the front handguard had some wobble to it even with the two locking screws fully tightened. I wasn't very impressed. That being said, if they can get a complete rifle to market for under $2K I'll probably give it a try.
Stephen
Assuming what you say is true, what would you suggest as a better alternative?
I bet its driving CAG crazy, having their lasers wobble all over the place and lose zero :D
Jay Cunningham
03-19-08, 16:44
The 3000 gun backorder and adoption by a foreign CT unit who could have had the 416 speak for itself.
What foreign CT unit has purchased the LWRC? Also, does the 3000 gun backorder mean that they are not filling their orders on time?
Assuming what you say is true, what would you suggest as a better alternative?
I bet its driving CAG crazy, having their lasers wobble all over the place and lose zero :D
My 416 upper never had this problem nor have I heard of it ever being an issue. Has anyone else experienced a loose handguard?
Tspeis
I got to play with one again last week. It was overly heavy and the front handguard had some wobble to it even with the two locking screws fully tightened. I wasn't very impressed. That being said, if they can get a complete rifle to market for under $2K I'll probably give it a try.
Stephen
Two screws? Mine only has one, and the handguard is rock solid. Of course I don't shoot or beat the crap out of it......
Yeah, it's a little front-heavy but if it was an issue why the heck am I at the gym 4-5 days a week? :D
This post should be titled. "First look, some other country's 416 so why bother looking since it's not ours"
M4Guru: A backorder could speak to a lot of things -- many of them are perceived as negatives. The adoption by a CTU is interesting news though. Wish you could share.
never did get what the "sexy" thing was. Some would rather have something that looks good but might be a pos.
Give me the most butt ugly rifle out there that performs, i'm happy.
There's only one locking screw on the 416's handguard.
HK moved the rear takedown pin hole 6mm forward to meet German requirements to allow the weapon to be legal for purchase. Since HK will be making the US versions stateside, I don't think it's something to be concerned about. I do, however, hope they chamber the US versions in 5.56 NATO instead of .223 Remington (which the German version is chambered in).
Tspeis
The question is will they copy the tooling/forging machines or doohickeys that are used in Oberndorf for production over here or will they develop ALL NEW tooling so they can move that pin hole 1/4" so that it will mate with other companies' uppers and lowers?
I doubt they'd change all the tooling required to make an upper and lower and why the hell would they want to? So you can throw out the upper and put on a Rock River Arms or so that you can take the H&K upper and put it on a Stag lower?
I predict we'll get the relocated pin location.
The question is will they copy the tooling/forging machines or doohickeys that are used in Oberndorf for production over here or will they develop ALL NEW tooling so they can move that pin hole 1/4" so that it will mate with other companies' uppers and lowers?
I doubt they'd change all the tooling required to make an upper and lower and why the hell would they want to? So you can throw out the upper and put on a Rock River Arms or so that you can take the H&K upper and put it on a Stag lower?
I predict we'll get the relocated pin location.
Umm, they allready have the tooling for the 416 as delivered to .mil/.gov..........
Damn and here I thought the Hk416 fit M16FOW lowers...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/Weapons/003.jpg
I better go hire a machinst to fit all of our lowers
:rolleyes:
Two screw handguards are for the longer (and I understand prototype) handguards
never did get what the "sexy" thing was. Some would rather have something that looks good but might be a pos.
Give me the most butt ugly rifle out there that performs, i'm happy.
Psst...clue time: a "blank" is the pre-finished barrel. Prior to it even being capable of being mounted, a round chambered or anything. A hammer forged blank doesn't look like any old piece of tube steel, if you know what you are looking at....it's sexier looking due to the processing it's gone through.
Since it's a blank, it has nothing to do with what the finished rifle looks like or how it performs....:rolleyes:
FYI: Lets keep this thread on track; civilian HK416's.
I will be cleaning up this thread later tonight.
keep the thread on track.
civilian 416's not for our country.
I can't see a logical reason why Wilcox would go with the altered German pin location. That would prevent that them from selling uppers to LE agencies who have perfectly functioning lower receivers for one thing. Makes no sense. Why cut yourself out of a market.
I'm not sure how many they would sell to ANYONE if you couldn't slap it on a standard lower for that matter.
I can't see a logical reason why Wilcox would go with the altered German pin location. That would prevent that them from selling uppers to LE agencies who have perfectly functioning lower receivers for one thing. Makes no sense. Why cut yourself out of a market.
I'm not sure how many they would sell to ANYONE if you couldn't slap it on a standard lower for that matter.
Your 100% right and I see absolutely zero chance that the U.S. built (Wilcox) versions will have anything but the standard pin location.
Most people seem to miss that the article everybody is referencing stated these were the German HK made guns for their domestic market. Somehow this has gotten blown up into much more. I could not care less what HK does with it's domestic market guns.
Why do we think Wilcox get to decide anything for HK?
I don't want stupid pins, I have my fingers crossed.
The fact that the American made upper might not be refittable to another AR isn't as big as an issue since you would have to buy the lower anyway with the American made HK416.
Of course it would be great if it accepted PMAGS, but I don't think that is about to happen.
Actually, it seems that some people are saying that there will be American made HK416s while others are saying there will not be. So we don't seem to have definitive word on that.
FYI: Please keep this thread on track; civilian HK416's.
variablebinary
03-20-08, 01:06
The only way I can see Wilcox making an upper that will only work with 416 lowers is if they are looking to really define the weapon system as being a different animal with than the standard AR15.
Maybe with the purpose of preserving "the brand". Like not having an HK upper on a Hesse lower.
We'll see. No point in getting feathers ruffled until there is some kind of official statement from Wilcox/HK
Edit: Please keep this thread on track; civilian HK416's.
FYI: Please keep this thread on track; civilian HK416's.
I'm still confused by the ideas that Wilcox has a say in product development. Wilcox is a subcontractor, manufacturing partner, call it whatever...it's still HK's gun, HK's marketing, and HK's product development and design.
Will HK get to pick the variations on Wilcox's NVG helmet mounts now that they'll be made in the same factory?
Umm, they allready have the tooling for the 416 as delivered to .mil/.gov..........
If this is the case, then why does everyone continue to question whether or not we'll get a relocated pin?
Tspeis
Better yet, who wants to bet whether those PMAGS will fit correctly in the HK416 magwell...
This will be the deciding factor for me.
*edited by Templar....we're good*
Yeah. I edited my post whilest you were typing.
I just had a quick gut reaction and typed before I thought... It happens once in a while. :cool:
I'm still confused by the ideas that Wilcox has a say in product development. Wilcox is a subcontractor, manufacturing partner, call it whatever...it's still HK's gun, HK's marketing, and HK's product development and design.
Will HK get to pick the variations on Wilcox's NVG helmet mounts now that they'll be made in the same factory?
No question you are 100% correct. It's safe to assume HK will be calling all the shots.
Yeah.* I edited my post whilest you were typing.I just had a quick gut reaction and typed before I thought...* It happens once in a while. :cool:No worries, we're cool....I had a gut reaction too....:cool:
They would probably produce the rifles separately from one another to make it easy and not so confusing.
Wnen starting another assembly line they can decide to build them however they want. They have a long tradition of keeping LEO stuff unique. Might have been because of import laws or maybe import laws were a good excuse.
I don't think they are going to go from no rifles for us to a full civvy 416 overnight. That is, unless they have REALLY learned their lesson.
I don't mean to get too far off topic here, but over on the HKPRO boards, Mr. Chen Lee (SMGLee) mentioned corrosion problems with the HK416 being reported by reliable sources. Anyone know anything about this?
Tspeis
One thing everybody should remember is that Hk did not have to do this for LE & Mil sales. Both of them can already buy complete 416's build in Germany. I'm not saying HK has completely turned over a new leaf but I find it hard to believe they would go through all this trouble for U.S. built HK416's to purposefully to get around OUR governments laws & importation rulings and screw it up. Especially when the things many of us would hate would also hurt their LE sales.
Eagle_Red-White-Blue
03-20-08, 15:17
" It's chambered in .223 Remington, rather than 5.56 x 45."
I wonder why they did it that way?
I don't mean to get too far off topic here, but over on the HKPRO boards, Mr. Chen Lee (SMGLee) mentioned corrosion problems with the HK416 being reported by reliable sources. Anyone know anything about this?
Tspeis
I suggest not using fired/disgruntled ex-HK employees as the sources for 416 info. I have the funny suspicions that's who gave Chen his info.
The materials HK used are at least as resistant to the elements as an M4.
Chances are someone thought "no real cleaning" meant "no real maintenance".
One thing everybody should remember is that Hk did not have to do this for LE & Mil sales.
Actually, that is precisely why they did it and why they started with the HK45 pistols. Both are aimed primarily at long-term major mil contracts which get a substantial leg up if they are made in the USA. The plan to produce 416's at HK-NH came well before the decision to produce civilian-legal variants.
Furthermore, an individual LEO cannot buy a personally owned 416 as a "duty weapon" because the import ban makes no exception for LEOs. Only agency/government sales are allowed. So a domestically-produced 416 opens up that market, as well.
Actually, that is precisely why they did it and why they started with the HK45 pistols. Both are aimed primarily at long-term major mil contracts which get a substantial leg up if they are made in the USA. The plan to produce 416's at HK-NH came well before the decision to produce civilian-legal variants.
Sounds logical to me. If we get civilian sales as a positive side effect all the better.
Furthermore, an individual LEO cannot buy a personally owned 416 as a "duty weapon" because the import ban makes no exception for LEOs. Only agency/government sales are allowed.
I never said anything about individual officer sales. The import barrel ban ruling killed any chances of that. I was referring to department sales, as any LE department can and are ordering complete weapons. Department sales & complete weapons go around the barrel importation ruling.
I suggest not using fired/disgruntled ex-HK employees as the sources for 416 info. I have the funny suspicions that's who gave Chen his info.
Interesting. I've never had any issues with my 416 upper, as mentioned before. There are 416's being used in some of the worst conditions with none of the problems described being reported. Just figured I'd throw that one out there to see what you guys thought.
" It's chambered in .223 Remington, rather than 5.56 x 45."
I wonder why they did it that way?
I believe because some European countries have restrictions that forbid their citizens from owning weapons chambered for military calibers. Since .223 Remington is not technically a military caliber (5.56mm NATO being the Mil equivelant), I suppose labeling and chambering the German MR223's in .223 Remington would meet those legal requirements.
Tspeis
I believe because some European countries have restrictions that forbid their citizens from owning weapons chambered for military calibers. Since .223 Remington is not technically a military caliber (5.56mm NATO being the Mil equivelant), I suppose labeling and chambering the German MR223's in .223 Remington would meet those legal requirements.
FWIW, the SIG 551 and 552 rifles brought into the US were marked .223 but actually had NATO-spec chambers. Which is technically a violation of SAAMI rules. Which I got in trouble for mentioning. :rolleyes:
For a U.S. civilian-sale 416, the key features we need to look for are:
-Actual hammer forged barrel. We know it is legally impossible to import a FINISHED AR-15 barrel for civilian sale. Importing an un-chambered, but hammer-rifled barrel might get around the ban. Building a hammer forging facility here in the US is another option - though a very costly one.
Any possibility they would substitute a non-hammer forged barrel?
A: Look at a real IMI Galil rifle: hammer forged barrel. Now look at a US-made copy from Century: cheap button rifled copy from Green Mountain Rifle (actually their barrels are not bad as far as button rifling goes - but button rifling is simply NOT the equivalent of real hammer forged barrels).
Does it matter? Review the recent dust-chamber tests at Aberdeen. The military seems to think hammer forged barrels matter because they mentioned hammer forged barrels in several articles that came out after the tests. Again, their view, their statements, not mine. Maybe they are right, maybe they are wrong - would not be the first time.
As for relocating the takedown - I hope they recall how unpopular Colt's decision to make "large-pin" AR-15 rifles was. Keep the HK lower design within AR-15 spec please.
Any possibility they would substitute a non-hammer forged barrel?
That's what SIG did with its 556 and its US-made pistol barrels.
That's what SIG did with its 556 and its US-made pistol barrels.
Sig's website states the 556 has a cold hammer forged, 5.56mm NATO barrel. Are they falsely advertising this?
On another note, the way it was put to me was that HK would likely import unfinished blanks into the US and finish them here. It was mentioned that they would be hammer forged as well. Here's the thing; both the USC and SL8 have cold hammer forged barrels, which are legally imported with the rest of the weapon due to them being classified as "sporting" rifles. Maybe the civilian 416's for the US market will be classified as such.
My honest opinion, I highly doubt HK would give up one of the best features the 416 platform has...it's barrel. That's one of the many things people desire in that platform. We'll see what HK decides to do.
Tspeis
Edit to add:
Here's the first sentence from the 556's description on Sig's website:
SIG 556 features a 16” military grade cold hammer forged barrel, chambered in 5.56mm NATO, with a twist rate of 1 in 7”.
For a U.S. civilian-sale 416, the key features we need to look for are:
-Actual hammer forged barrel. We know it is legally impossible to import a FINISHED AR-15 barrel for civilian sale. Importing an un-chambered, but hammer-rifled barrel might get around the ban. Building a hammer forging facility here in the US is another option - though a very costly one.
Hammer forges actually do the chamber at the same time
You would be surprised at the cost of CHF when done in bulk...
intial setup is pricey but it gets made up when you start doing a lot.
Any possibility they would substitute a non-hammer forged barrel?
A: Look at a real IMI Galil rifle: hammer forged barrel. Now look at a US-made copy from Century: cheap button rifled copy from Green Mountain Rifle (actually their barrels are not bad as far as button rifling goes - but button rifling is simply NOT the equivalent of real hammer forged barrels).
I doubt it -- with the money they and Wilcox are throwing at this I would pretty much guarantee a CHF machine or two is installed.
Big difference from a bargain basement importer to Hk
Does it matter? Review the recent dust-chamber tests at Aberdeen. The military seems to think hammer forged barrels matter because they mentioned hammer forged barrels in several articles that came out after the tests. Again, their view, their statements, not mine. Maybe they are right, maybe they are wrong - would not be the first time.
Very shortly new RFP's etc will call for CHF barrels, in much the way that now most are requiring pistons too.
As for relocating the takedown - I hope they recall how unpopular Colt's decision to make "large-pin" AR-15 rifles was. Keep the HK lower design within AR-15 spec please.
Why -- they are building for a MIL contract -- you have to know they have every intention on having the Hk 416 replace the M4 as the US Mil gold standard and having the Canadian and British militaries follow suit.
Civilain sale guns will be as close to mil spec as they can legally allow at a competitive price point.
Sig's website states the 556 has a cold hammer forged, 5.56mm NATO barrel. Are they falsely advertising this?
More likely my information is wrong. As of when I left (Sep'07) they had an EDM machine that was going to be used for making both pistol and 556 barrels. Prior to that, there was a plan to get the barrels from FN USA. Perhaps they did decide to get them from a vendor.
Then again, there has certainly been incorrect information on the website before. Marketing and Engineering don't usually spend a lot of time together. Not an issue solely at SIG, either ...
civilian german version available in Europe
http://www.heckler-kochjs.de/media/Allgemein/MR223.pdf
Watch... they will do the same thing that SIG did with the 550's...
It will be a bastardized and very less fulfilling version of what everyone wanted....
I believe because some European countries have restrictions that forbid their citizens from owning weapons chambered for military calibers. Since .223 Remington is not technically a military caliber (5.56mm NATO being the Mil equivelant), I suppose labeling and chambering the German MR223's in .223 Remington would meet those legal requirements.
Tspeis
Those countries require a completely difference caliber such as .222 Rem.
.223 and 5.56 are the same as far as they are concerned.
Is there any confirmation on the originally posted price of $4000?
variablebinary
04-10-08, 15:40
Is there any confirmation on the originally posted price of $4000?
Since there isnt even an official confirmation on a civilian HK416, there is no civilian price information posted either
However, lets use our brains for a second and think about this logically. Do you really think a sanctioned and supported civilian HK416 is going to cost $4000...Silly notion indeed
No one knows what these things are going to cost, and with Wilcox working on the USA model we cant even speculate pricing either
Is there any confirmation on the originally posted price of $4000?
Posted by who?
I've only seen speculation with most of it being way on the high side. I would not pay much attention to these claims. They are based on nothing but the European price witch has nothing to do with our prices in the U.S. The Europeans pay far higher prices for firearms.
Posted by who?
I've only seen speculation with most of it being way on the high side. I would not pay much attention to these claims. They are based on nothing but the European price witch has nothing to do with our prices in the U.S. The Europeans pay far higher prices for firearms.
Those estimates are people trying to convert EUros to US dollars. That wouldn'tske much sense unless the rifles are built in EU and shipped here.
We won't see these until they are manufactured here, correct? Therefore their EU price and the conversion shouldn't come into play.
Are 556s built here? At 1300 bucks, they don't seem to be influenced by exchange rates.
The SIG 556 is built in New Hampshire, not far from where the US-made 416 and its civilian cousins will be built.
The Dumb Gun Collector
04-11-08, 10:40
I can't wait to have one myself. Still, I suspect the old German ones that people have now will always be worth more. I was thinking about picking up a 10 inch upper to put on my M16 when I get it. I suspect the parts will be fully interchangeable.
Btw, experts. Is there any reason why the Civy model won't be choppable to a 12 inch gun?
When did HK ever charge $4000 for an upper? Some of you are getting carried away. If you don't like them, don't worry about the price.
http://www.waffen-braun-shop.de/produktdetail.asp?id=19491215042008436822788515032110wwwwaffenbrauns&artid=948&katid=10051&hauptkat=10051&aid=948&fremdid=9905&sm=27_27&unterkat=&bildvorschau=ja&prodanzahl=25&aktionenanzahl=&recorderanzahl=&sucheanzahl=50&detailsucheanzahl=#
available for 2390 euros in Germany. :D
Thanks but we already knew that. That's what caused the argument over prices and converting the euro. ;)
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