View Full Version : Several Newbie Questions
I used to compete in smallbore as a kid. Never very good. Eventually girls were a better way to spend money than rifles.
Fast forward 40 years. Want to start shooting again.
Bought a nice Ruger 40 and pump shotgun for immediate defense. Was going to wait on the AR until the current craziness settles down.
Was wandering through the gun store and there are a batch of S&W M&P 15 Sports for per-Newtown prices. Bought one.
First trip to the range was humbling. Had 2 jams in the first 12 rounds. Looks like an ammo problem. Stuff was local made. Put the Israeli stuff in, no problem. Old hands there suggested a 45 brush up the barrel. The front sight tool I bought, doesn't fit my sight. And most embarrassing, my middle aged eyes can't see the sights and the target well enough to sight in well for a 100yd zero.
1. What's the best way to adjust the front sight on this rifle? Pushing the pin in with a bullet and using pliers, seems bit rough on the equipment.
2. What tools should I have in my range bag to shoot this gun. Are there other ARs that need very different ones?
3. I think I can see well enough at 50 yds to sight in. I think I want to be about 2 in low with 3200 fps ammo. Then do the best I can at 100 and expect to hit around the middle. This about right?
4. To shoot well, I am going to need an optic. Seems like there are lots of reviews that like Primary Arms or Vortex. All the forums seem to say Eotech, Aimpoint or stick with BUIS. Hard to believe I need a $550 optic on a $700 rifle. Leaning Vortex Sparc. Am I wasting my money or risking my life?
TunaFisherman
03-22-13, 00:06
Use the search button above, its your best friend on here.
Vortex are nice but heard they dont hold up well on 5.56, Primary Arms seem to get ok reviews also
Aimpoint pro matched with Troy back up sights is a good match.
I run Aimpoint, Nikon Ar and Leupold Mark Ar on my rifles. Magpul makes good sights for the price, but I prefer Troy.
Use search button there is a how to thread on sighting in your rifle.
Sight adjustment tool
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/259955/troy-industries-battle-sight-adjustment-tool-ar-15
AR General Discusion at the top...here is example
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7355
Look in the post above , and read through them all.. All types of neat info, and yeah you get what you pay for.
But yeah if you cannot find what you want there use the nice orange search button
Welcome! You picked a great forum to join.
(I'll leave the range answers up to the big guys)
For the front sight, push the pin down with the tip of the round, and use that to spin the post up or down.
As far as optics, what would you be risking your life on? If you are in fact planning on it being a home defense gun, spend the $500. And if/when said craze dies and you want a different rifle, you already have the optic.
there are a lot more informed and knowledgeable members that will help you out, but for me
1. I only use the tip of a bullet to adjust the front sight
2. I only take magazines, ammo, lube, a cleaning rod, and a multi tool with me to the range.
3. There are a few good resources on how to properly zero your gun in the stickies at the top of the forum
4. everyone here is going to tell you to buy quality for your optics. Aimpoint, eotech, and trijicon are commonly preferred for red dot type optics.
What distance are you going to be shooting it at mostly? 50 yard plinker? 100+ yard varmints? Home defense? $400-$600 is what a quality optic costs...something rugged enough to hold up to repeated recoil without breaking or losing zero. Especially important if your eyesight isn't great. Get an Aimpoint PRO if your shooting is going to be 50 yards or less. Get a magnified optic if its going to be 50 yards or more.
As to your eyesight...it will be impossible for someone your age to focus on your front sight if you're using irons...you will need help from an optometrist. He can get you a correction that will let you use irons effectively, although I think of a good reason why you'd want to use only irons. If your distance vision is good (if it's not, you need to start there), even if corrected, you'll be able to use a red dot sight or magnified optic far more effectively.
You may wanna look through a red dot before you buy one.
I shoot with a couple of older guys who have and astigmatism and poor vision who don't do well with an Aimpoint at all.
One uses a Burris 1-4 the other uses a mini Acog of some flavor.
If you do end up liking a red dot, I highly recommend forkin' over the cash for an Aimpoint. I see many new shooters every year show up with cheaper optics that rarely make it more than a few days.
I use the tip of a Bic ball point pen to adjust the front sight.
...Old hands there suggested a 45 brush up the barrel...
NO! ABSOLUTELY NOT! Jamming a 45 caliber brush into a 22 caliber bore is a recipe for disaster. It will be much easier to jam that badboy into the barrel than it will be to get it out again. Your S&W is a good AR with few vices. It should shoot and function reliably with good ammo and proper lubrication. Remember MEAL- Magazine, Extractor/Ejector, Ammo, Lubrication. These are the things that affect AR reliability. Don't obsess over cleaning. Wipe down the bolt carrier group and run a patch through the bore now and again. Keep the rifle neat and lubed but it doesn't have to be surgically clean. Search the forums for threads on cleaning and lubricating, grab some popcorn and start reading.
It's awkward, but I use a bullet tip to adjust the front sight. Fortunately, it's not a chore that needs to be done very often. There are some good tools available.
My eyes are getting old as well. I find larger apertures work better for me. I bought an Aimpoint H1 Micro a little over a year ago and it's an absolute delight to use. Batteries life is measured in years with continuous use. The H1 doesn't even have an off switch, just a brightness dial.
If you buy a magnified scope and are on a strict budget, put the money towards optical quality and turrets that track accurately and skip the extras. Poor optics means eye strain, poor light transmission and poor resolution. Poor turrets means poor consistency.
Welcome to the forums
Congrats on your new gun!
Looks like you've got your answer for a front sight adjustment tool.
I prefer a 50/200 yard zero. Meaning with your standard 16" barrel, you'll be zeroed at 50 AND 200 yards with no adjustment. That being said, you'll be about 1" low at 25 yards and 1" high at 100.
Get yourself a sling, ammo, cleaning supplies, lube (froglube or CLP), and quality 30 round mags.
You'll want to save for your optic, something like an Aimpoint or ACOG can't be beat.
Lastly, maybe a light.
Besides the castle nut or barrel nut (you should not need to touch those), the entire platform and every accessory comes apart or is removed with regular household screw drivers and allen wrenches.
All that my range bag religiously has is eye pro, ear pro, a multi allen wrench tool incase a sight or grip comes loose, and spare batteries.
That should be more than enough to get you started and work for years to come.
Listen to what MWolf wrote in his post, he has been around the block a lil bit:D
When I said you get what you pay for, I meant for your optic, the Vortex ones are good in that they have a lifetime limited warranty and are $ less then Aimpoint/ Eotech. The optic MWolf was talking about the H-1 comes in 2 dot sizes, a 2 MOA dot and a 4 MOA dot. If you want a bigger aperture go for the 4 MOA dot. If I were you and anyone else thinking about optics, plinker or not, I would save my money and buy the Aimpoint, yeah it's $$ but better then spending money on one every few years give or take and also if you have the Aimpoint reliability is a non issue. If your OK with a smaller aperture look for the Aimpoint PRO, its bigger adds weight but is just as dependable, IMO for anyone on a budget its the way to go at around 380-425 then add the cost of the mount which if I were you I would op for a lower 1/3 co-witness mount vs absolute. IMO for people just starting out it is much easier to shoot with out having to worry about the absolute co-witness.This is assuming your also running back up irons in addition to the optic. In the stickies above there is a shit ton of information on this. Also there is even more info on how to sight your rifle in using a shorter distance for example I am dead on at 50 yards I did my sight in at 50 yards using my irons and my Aimpoint, then I went to 225 yards and was grouping shots very well at center mass, but wind, other factors have a greater influence at larger distances obviously, but there are gentlemen on here that can shoot their 5.56/223 far past that with great results, I am not there yet ;)
Use good ammo, keep a diary of what you shoot and how well you did when you shot X ammo under X conditions, lube you rifle, and read up, this site is amazing, great information from great people. Do all of this and you should be good to go. Investing in a AR course or class may not be such a bad idea either.
Last thing, I like the Troy's folding BUS better for my rifle, they are metal, the Magpul BUS are great, I just personally prefer the Troy's.
This is the 0 I use and this information and more can be found in the Stickies above.....
Listen to what MWolf wrote in his post, he has been around the block a lil bit:D
When I said you get what you pay for, I meant for your optic, the Vortex ones are good in that they have a lifetime limited warranty and are $ less then Aimpoint/ Eotech. The optic MWolf was talking about the H-1 comes in 2 dot sizes, a 2 MOA dot and a 4 MOA dot. If you want a bigger aperture go for the 4 MOA dot. If I were you and anyone else thinking about optics, plinker or not, I would save my money and buy the Aimpoint, yeah it's $$ but better then spending money on one every few years give or take and also if you have the Aimpoint reliability is a non issue. If your OK with a smaller aperture look for the Aimpoint PRO, its bigger adds weight but is just as dependable, IMO for anyone on a budget its the way to go at around 380-425 then add the cost of the mount which if I were you I would op for a lower 1/3 co-witness mount vs absolute. IMO for people just starting out it is much easier to shoot with out having to worry about the absolute co-witness.This is assuming your also running back up irons in addition to the optic. In the stickies above there is a shit ton of information on this.
The OP already has iron sights. IMHO, no point in spending more money on different one, and if he does, Magpul MBUS is perfectly adequate as a backup sight.
I'm not sure what you're talking about when you refer to "aperture" on the Aimpoint RDS. Do you mean dot size? The Aimpoint PRO has a 2 MOA dot. The H-1 and T-1 come with either 2 or 4 MOA. Personally, I can't think of a reason why anyone would want a 4 MOA dot, especially on a rifle that's going to be shot at 50 yards or greater.
Aimpoint PRO can be had pretty easily for $400, and that price includes the mount. That mount co-witnesses slightly above the lower third.
I suck at seeing 100 yards with a Carbean site radius too. Rifle? No sweat.
I zero 1" low at 50 so I'm pretty much on at 100. Just use the bullet tip or the double lock end of a hand cuff key to adjust the sight. A sight tool is a lot easier, but you'll find that you never have it when you need it anyway. ;)
I have the same eye sight issue. The Aimpoint PRO is a great value and sturdy as hell. Only $400 compared to $550 for others, and it includes the mount. I have one mounted for my primary defensive AR.
Some what cheaper is a low power optic and mount. On one of my ARs I have a Wilson Combat mount with a Weaver 1-3x scope for about $250 total.
An affordable optic with a decent rep that is often overlooked is the Ultradot6. I think it the next best thing to my Aimpoint and Eotech.
The OP already has iron sights. IMHO, no point in spending more money on different one, and if he does, Magpul MBUS is perfectly adequate as a backup sight.
I'm not sure what you're talking about when you refer to "aperture" on the Aimpoint RDS. Do you mean dot size? The Aimpoint PRO has a 2 MOA dot. The H-1 and T-1 come with either 2 or 4 MOA. Personally, I can't think of a reason why anyone would want a 4 MOA dot, especially on a rifle that's going to be shot at 50 yards or greater.
Aimpoint PRO can be had pretty easily for $400, and that price includes the mount. That mount co-witnesses slightly above the lower third.
Yeah I misused the word aperture, I meant dot size, truthfully I am horrible with words. The OP was saying that at 100 yards he was having trouble, with irons, so given that information and the fact that he does not sound like he will be shooting at distances beyond 100 yards and if so not quite that often, I don't see an issue with a 4 MOA dot, I have seen them go for less, then the 2 MOA H-1 or T-1.
And to repeat again I did recommend the Aimpoint PRO, what I meant by bigger is the optic itself, and yes the dot is a 2 MOA dot. As far as the mount goes, I could not stand it, but I would not hesitate to use it until I bought a better one. I use the LaRue LT-129 and its great.
My fault on screwing up the word apature, glad it was corrected haha, I can just see the look on your guy's faces when your read that.. :D
Thanks for all the answers. Believe it or not, I have done lots of searches. More looking for answers to direct questions than anything else.
My AR is for 2 things. First, it is my long range defensive gun. I have a good quality semiauto pistol that I can shoot well. The pistol is meant to be my Oh $&*t gun that I can get to quickly as someone breaks down the door to my bedroom. I also have a pump shotgun for a close range defense gun if I have a minute to get too it.. It has a side saddle and a light. The AR is meant for a "Hurricane Katrina" scenario, Cops not able to get to me soon if I just barricade with the shotgun and pistol, where the bad guys looting the neighborhood realize I am armed and want to mess with me anyway. It is meant for engagements from 25 to 150 yds. If I zero at 50 yds, instead of the 100 I tried, I am confident in hitting man sized targets out to 150, even without my glasses using iron sights. Though who knows how well I will shoot when someone is shooting back. Never had to to that. My time in the military was torpedoes and ballistic missiles. It is also meant to go to the range and poke holes in targets. I don't really intend to shoot it beyond 200 yds. As I learn to shoot it well, I may try some matches at the club. They have a practical rifle match.
On the optic front, samuse recommended looking through a red dot before taking the plunge. Would it be worth the effort to get an Aimpoint clone and take it to the range before spending >$400 on an Aimpont? I suspect the answer it "no". But I don't know for sure.
Cleaning kit going in the range bag. Normally I do it at home. But probably good to have options. I hadn't thought of the multi tool, but that's going in too. What to people think of a small crescent wrench for front sight adjustments? Seems like it would be less likely to damage it than needle nose.
Definitely a great forum. Thanks for the guidance.
I hadn't thought of the multi tool, but that's going in too. What to people think of a small crescent wrench for front sight adjustments? Seems like it would be less likely to damage it than needle nose.
I'm not sure how you'd use a crescent wrench to adjust a front sight. The front sight tool that Tuna Fisherman mentioned is great in concept, but I found that the little ears that engage the sight post tend to be a little fragile and I've already broken one. I found the Troy sight tool to be better, and it has a hole drilled in it so you can make a little lanyard out of paracord.
Better yet, since you're looking at a multi-tool...consider a MultiTasker tool. http://www.brownells.com/shooting-accessories/knives-amp-personal-defense/knives/ar-15-m16-multitasker-tools-prod40883.aspx . Among other AR-specific attachments is a front-sight adjusting tool.
http://www.brownells.com/userdocs/products/p_080100671_1.jpg
Knightsofnee
03-23-13, 16:17
I tried a Burris Tac-30 with a Primary Arms "Deluxe Mount" Which they (Primary Arms) had on sale at the time. This I screwed to my Windham SRC. There was room underneath the ocular for a Troy BUIS. Up front I screwed Troys folding front sight. This seems to work ok. 1x-4x of the Tac-30 works well for aging eyes both up close and at a distance.
Listen to what MWolf wrote in his post, he has been around the block a lil bit:D...
I'm a little slow, though. It's taken me more than 50 years just to get this far!
...On the optic front, samuse recommended looking through a red dot before taking the plunge. Would it be worth the effort to get an Aimpoint clone and take it to the range before spending >$400 on an Aimpont?...
If you buy an Aimpoint and decide you don't like it, you'll be able to sell it & make your money back. Do not make the mistake of comparing an RDS to a magnified optic. Compare it to an ironsight. A 4 moa dot sounds huge compared to the crosshair of most scopes, but it's smaller than the standard AR front sight. Service rifle shooters use post front sights to shoot small groups all the way out to 600 yards.
Some find that astigmatism and dot flare to be annoying- and it is. However, if you sight the Aimpoint for 100 yards, you'll still be able to make good hits by simply laying the dot on your target and squeezing. I have astigmatism and the dot does flare with my eyes but I can still break clay pigeons out to almost 200 yards from the off-hand.
I confess, I am a big battery-phobe. I want nothing on any of my firearms that will affect function or ability to accurately hit the target that relies on batteries because they fail. The Aimpoint is the sole exception. It is that good. Don't waste your time or money on anything less or you'll be disappointed
It is meant for engagements from 25 to 150 yds. If I zero at 50 yds, instead of the 100 I tried, I am confident in hitting man sized targets out to 150, even without my glasses using iron sights. Though who knows how well I will shoot when someone is shooting back. Never had to to that. My time in the military was torpedoes and ballistic missiles. It is also meant to go to the range and poke holes in targets. I don't really intend to shoot it beyond 200 yds. As I learn to shoot it well, I may try some matches at the club. They have a practical rifle match.
Just my two cents on the 50 yard zero. I like it very much for an urban environment and it is very easy and fast to use for the 200 yard distance you mentioned.
I have an Aimpoint R1 and it didn't take long to be hitting man-sized, torso targets consistently from 25-300 yards out. You'll be amazed at how fast you can acquire and fire accurately with an AR and a good red dot sight.
You really don't have to do any crazy calculations with that zero and shooting out to 300 yards. Just move your point of aim up slightly as it gets further out past 100 yards and you'll be getting center of mass hits. Some practice on moving targets and you're on your way to being a tactical terror!
Best of luck and welcome to M4C.
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