Is it coincidence? [Archive] - M4Carbine.net Forums

SHIVAN

03-19-08, 16:20

Is it purely coincidence that Barack Hussein Obama refuses to wear a US flag pin (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,299439,00.html) on his lapel?

http://www.foxnews.com/images/311309/0_61_100207_obama_flagpin.jpg

Or purely coincidence that he has been photographed not placing his hand over his heart during the Star Spangled Banner?

http://albanysinsanity.wnymedia.net/blogs/files/2007/10/obama-no-patriot.jpg

Or is it merely an extension of his core beliefs and indoctrination?

I honestly do not believe these to be isolated incidents. Rather a manifestation of his beliefs that he is currently running from in the news...

general_purpose

03-19-08, 16:29

Rmplstlskn

03-19-08, 16:58

My tagline says it all...

We get who we (patriot Americans) allow...

Rmpl

LTPhoon

03-20-08, 13:21

Make of it what you will: http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/anthem.asp

SinnFéinM1911

03-20-08, 13:57

This shitbag really scares me! im moving to Belgium is he or Hillary gets elected !

MerQ

03-20-08, 17:34

I've always understood that "God Bless America" was playing at the time of this image and NOT the "Star Spangled Banner." Well that's what I've heard about that matter when he was questioned about that image in the past. I often see people (unnecessarily) showing courtesies to the aforementioned song too though.

SHIVAN

03-20-08, 18:00

I've always understood that "God Bless America" was playing at the time of this image and NOT the "Star Spangled Banner."

Negative.

"...O'er the Ramparts we watched, were so gallantly streaming...." = The Star Spangled Banner.

Video Link of the Picture (http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u90/snopesbinary/Politics/?action=view&current=abc_obama_anthem_071022a.flv)

Leonidas

03-20-08, 22:46

When has wearing a flag pin become required attire for senators, congressmen or public figures in general?
I would much rather know that they read, understood and applied the Constitution of the United States then using the flag as a fashion statement.

SHIVAN

03-20-08, 22:58

Well, he fails there too. :)

In regards to the lapel pin: When it comes out that your spiritual leader has made statements that America is bad, and America deserves what America gets (terror attacks), and that white Americans created AIDS to kill blacks, etc. --> The lack of outward symbolism, and need to make it known that he REFUSES to WEAR IT, seems less than coincidental. Seems to me like he is making a COUNTER symbolic statement, to what the flag lapel pin stands for...

Which, not coincidentally, would seem to mesh nicely with ALL of the sentiments of his spiritual leader of two decades. Seems even more noteworthy than the week's worth of coverage we've already had on this subject to be honest.

If his spiritual adviser did not exist, and his dad wasn't a Muslim, and he hadn't refused to hold his hand over his heart for the National Anthem, and he hadn't stated that he's committed to pulling our troops out of Iraq, and didn't have a wife who was NOW proud of this country for the first time, and he didn't have a white racist grandmother, and he didn't think there were typical white people, etc....

It would seem that a preponderance of evidence is mounting that Barack Hussein Obama has a deep dark hatred for the United States -- in general. Very scary considering where his status in life has him for the moment.

Rmplstlskn

03-21-08, 10:58

...and that white Americans created AIDS to kill blacks

Damn, I thought it was to kill queers... :D

Rmpl

Submariner

03-21-08, 12:53

MerQ

03-24-08, 18:37

I find it ironic that people get as bent out of shape as they do towards the excerpts of statements that Rev. Wright made. I'm not saying what he said was right but they really aren't so different from what Pat Buchanan said following the 9/11 attacks and the findings of the 911 Commission Report itself when it comes to foreign policy. It was concluded that our foreign policy was a contributing factor but not the only factor. I can say that no one hates us because of our "freedom" and anyone who thinks that's is the reason we were attacked is beyond naive.

The difference is that the others probably worded it differently and the 911 Report didn't throw in the "God damn America" part. It's also not unfathomable for a man to give into the conspiracy theory side and let his mind wonder about various communicable diseases - especially knowing about the Syphilis cases and the recent findings that link certain conditions to childhood vaccinations. Again I'm not saying he is right in his thoughts but I am saying it's not way out there that a person being of sound mind could possibly come to a plausible conclusion when allowed to let their mind wonder. I don't think he could prove it either way and the government long denied the claims about Syphilis before admitting to it.

I thought it was an erroneous and dumb thing for Rev. Wright to say. I think it received so much attention because there are those who cry (mostly Hillary) about Obama not being attacked enough so the media has to run it on endless loops. None of the other Democratic nominees made that the case while they were running. None of the Republicans did either really. That's my just opinion though. I could careless if they run loops of Hilary's stupid 3 AM ad, or McCain making a foreign policy gaff during a press conference. I've seen negative attacks from everyone and against everyone and I really wish that people would just stick to issues.

*I say it's stupid because I don't think you are qualified to be the President until you are President - I don't think anything will get you ready for that prior to having the office. One of the most important things is to have a competent staff around the President and that's what I'm interested in seeing - who's aligning with who before the general election.

SHIVAN

03-24-08, 18:59

I'm not saying what he said was right but they really aren't so different from what Pat Buchanan said following the 9/11 attacks and the findings of the 911 Commission Report itself when it comes to foreign policy.

Which candidate running for President has been guided spiritually and SPECIFICALLY by Pat Buchanan for 20+ years?

If none, then I guess we can see why it's kind of a big deal, huh?

The ISSUE is that Barack Hussein Obama is far from a United States loving, God fearing intellectual who espouses enlightened change for all men and women. Far, far from it.

Which is Ok, so long as you don't try to hide it. Tell the American people that you aren't proud of this country. Tell the American people that France and other Euro countries are superior. Tell the American people that you don't want to Pledge your allegiances to the flag of this country, because this country doesn't make you proud. Tell the American people that you are certain that our actions, John Q. and Jane Q. Public's actions, led to Sept 11th. Tell the American people that you wish there were more men like Che Guevara in this world. Tell them, come clean about it and stop hiding.

If that is what you are about, get up and tell the people that. At least then you might be able to look less and less like the shifty closet radical you really are...

MerQ

03-24-08, 21:33

Which candidate running for President has been guided spiritually and SPECIFICALLY by Pat Buchanan for 20+ years?

If none, then I guess we can see why it's kind of a big deal, huh?

The ISSUE is that Barack Hussein Obama is far from a United States loving, God fearing intellectual who espouses enlightened change for all men and women. Far, far from it.

I would argue if that's the logic and spin that people want to use then it would only be right and fair to expose the entire legacy of Rev. Wright over 20+ years and not only 30 seconds of his career.

I would also question who has agreed with 100% of anything some of our leaders believe. I constantly read on this forum and others about how we are always forced to choose between the lesser of two evils. Do you agree with everything your parents taught you or believe? Do you always believe that those put in charge of you always execute the absolute best course of action?

The world changes and it's our personal experiences more often that CAN make an impact on our lives and not just our peers who influence us in one way or another. My parents had a saying when I was growing up - "there's no such thing as peer pressure in this house or for the strong of mind." They held us accountable for our actions. Not what our friends did or didn't do as they didn't raise them.

In that light I believe what Rev. Wright said was stupid at best as it pertains to Obama's campaign. He is tied to that guilt by association alone. To only speak only of Rev. Wright's legacy in the terms of the negativity he has done and not also give him credit for the positive aspects is an insult to everyone's intelligence and it's just not right. As for their love of America - I don't know either man personally. I don't think anyone who truly hated America would subject themselves to the litmus test of being POTUS. That being said I don't believe it's right that you can judge a man's love based on words alone. How many times have you ever had strong words with your wife or girlfriends in the past. Did you still love them although you may have felt disappointed in one aspect or another? I know for me I did and sometimes emotions get the best of people. I'm not saying it's right but it does happen.

SHIVAN

03-24-08, 21:55

I would argue if that's the logic and spin that people want to use then it would only be right and fair to expose the entire legacy of Rev. Wright over 20+ years and not only 30 seconds of his career.

Please do expose it. Come forward with 20 years, or MORE, of the racial and US hatred. I guarantee you that these thoughts didn't sneak up on Obama's pastor last night, or even 7 years ago on 9/11/01.

I would also question who has agreed with 100% of anything some of our leaders believe. I constantly read on this forum and others about how we are always forced to choose between the lesser of two evils. Do you agree with everything your parents taught you or believe? Do you always believe that those put in charge of you always execute the absolute best course of action?

Deflect, deny and make counter accusations. Fact remains that Obama's actions seem to mimic the outward hatred his spiritual advisor embodies in sermon. It's not about me, my choices, or my parents. This is about Wright, and quite possibly Obama, hating the US and hating white people.

To only speak only of Rev. Wright's legacy in the terms of the negativity he has done and not also give him credit for the positive aspects is an insult to everyone's intelligence and it's just not right.

Fine, as I said, let's get a full account. Want to bet that his venom was the underpinning for his work throughout his life? Yeah, it's not right. Maybe someone should hold Wright accountable?

As for their love of America - I don't know either man personally. I don't think anyone who truly hated America would subject themselves to the litmus test of being POTUS. That being said I don't believe it's right that you can judge a man's love based on words alone.

I'm not. Obama's actions are also on display. Look above. The Star Spangled Banner and no hand over your heart. Actions are louder than words. Then to openly admit that you sometimes put it over your heart and sometimes not....

Actions. Louder. Than. Words.

How many times have you ever had strong words with your wife or girlfriends in the past. Did you still love them although you may have felt disappointed in one aspect or another? I know for me I did and sometimes emotions get the best of people. I'm not saying it's right but it does happen.

Deflect, deny and counter accuse. This isn't about me. It's about someone whose supporters and main campaign office hold the face of Che Geuvara. This is a man who says that the actual symbol of this nation, the flag, should not be a symbol of his patriotism. This is a man who can not consistently honor the nation and the flag, by placing his hand over his heart for the National Anthem.

His actions are speaking louder than words, but his words, and those of his MAIN SPIRITUAL ADVISOR, set the backdrop for the analysis.

It's not a coincidence.

Leonidas

03-24-08, 22:40

Deflect, deny and counter accuse.

I don't think this is what he was doing at all. It appears to me he was trying to get you to use your life experiences to look at the issue in a different light.

This is a man who says that the actual symbol of this nation, the flag, should not be a symbol of his patriotism. This is a man who can not consistently honor the nation and the flag, by placing his hand over his heart for the National Anthem.

I guess the founding generation of this nation were not very 'patriotic' since they did not have the privilege of worshiping these nationalistic symbols of the state religion. And of course it really pained me to have to mention Obama and these men in the same sentence, but to judge someones patriotism by the way they pay homage to these symbols is a little puzzling to me.

SHIVAN

03-24-08, 22:51

I don't think this is what he was doing at all. It appears to me he was trying to get you to use your life experiences to look at the issue in a different light.

It's still not about me. Sorry. Explaining his actions by trying to use things I may have done that I feel badly about won't make his actions, words, or associations any less reprehensible.

I guess the founding generation of this nation were not very 'patriotic' since they did not have the privilege of worshiping these nationalistic symbols of the state religion. And of course it really pained me to have to mention Obama and these men in the same sentence, but to judge someones patriotism by the way they pay homage to these symbols is a little puzzling to me.

Really? Ever read the thought that Ben Franklin put in to symbols of all sorts? Like his elaborate writings on the turkey as the preferred national bird? How about all the different revolutionary flags that they cherished as symbols of their movement, their plight, their sacrifice? "Do Not Tread on Me", etc....

I'm sorry, but this country is immersed in symbolism, and quite honestly I know as surely as I look at our currency, our monuments, and our other national treasures, that someone who failed to hold his hand over his heart for the National Anthem would surely be looked down upon by this country's founders. {Not to mention that many were Masonic, and would have been disowned if they disrespected certain symbols}

Much as I do when people continue to talk while it plays, refuse to remove their hat while the colors are presented, or boo while it's being sung. It's a lot about respect and reverance for those who paid their life to cement my way of life, and it's about honoring their memory through the flag and the song that carries the symbolism. There is a lot more to the symbol then some cloth and colors -- and it's SO easy to be respectful in it's prescense.

MerQ

03-24-08, 23:29

As much as I enjoy a good debate I won't go through the trouble and take the time of researching 20+ years of Rev. Wright's history FOR YOU.

I can find moments of shame for ANYONE in the public eye- including the conservative clergymen, priests, Popes, Rabbi's, politicians, celebrities, etc. Anyone can find good talking points if they choose to pursue them and actually wanted to view a persons background out of fairness and not of ignorance. If you choose to go that route for yourself be my guest. I just know that there are those who many may view as a social enemy who have spoken out for the social good as well.

People like Farrakhan constantly speaks out to black men to be better men, fathers, husbands, and citizens. You never hear that positive message though over the TV because they only talk about the negative aspect. Malcolm X changed his view of what a Muslim is or can be after taking a journey to Mecca and seeing Muslims of all races and backgrounds. As for Malcolm X being racist - yes he made racial comments towards white but he saw his father (a baptist minister lynched and left for dead on a railroad.) How many Americans display an open hatred of all Muslims for things that weren't done to us personally? I was watching Fox earlier today and a 17 year old Iranian child was subjected to that in his school by his own teacher with other students - why isn't this hatred getting the same level of scrutiny? We're just now hearing about this today and it happened in November. How many other children has it happened to? Why are we still teaching and/or allowing our children to distinguish and hate?

MLK and Bill Cosby both had extra marital affairs yet they are viewed as positive role models overall. This is only a short rundown of other people in the black community.

It's not fair to judge a group based on a limited spectrum is all I'm saying. I'm not twisting your words or making it personal towards you.

I tend to live by the words "Let he or she who is without sin or fault cast the first stone..." Christian values and yes I love America. I'm only looking at the situation a bit differently than you. I thought it was a dumb and spirited statement but I'm not dwelling on something the man said months ago still.

SHIVAN

03-24-08, 23:40

As much as I enjoy a good debate I won't go through the trouble and take the time of researching 20+ years of Rev. Wright's history FOR YOU.

I don't need you to. Where there is smoke, there is fire. These things do not just sneak up on a previously peacefully minded person.

I can find moments of shame for ANYONE in the public eye- including the conservative clergymen, priests, Popes, Rabbi's, politicians, celebrities, etc.

Again -- deny, deflect, and counter accuse. So their moments of shame somehow make Wright's moments Ok?

Anyone can find good talking points if they choose to pursue them and actually wanted to view a persons background out of fairness and not of ignorance. If you choose to go that route for yourself be my guest. I just know that there are those who many may view as a social enemy who have spoken out for the social good as well.

Jimmy Carter is widely viewed as a staunch humanitarian, but he has this real soft spot for people who choose to blow themselves up on buses. I refuse to let that slide on the basis of his being "more good" than his weaknesses overshadow.

Mentioning Farrakhan and Malcolm X, as beacons of social good, indicate that I'm done discussing this....

Thanks for a good debate, but I'm checking out.

MerQ

03-25-08, 03:48

Mentioning Farrakhan and Malcolm X, as beacons of social good, indicate that I'm done discussing this....

Thanks for a good debate, but I'm checking out.

There is where the spirit of the debate lies though. It's a level of intolerance for ideas other than those we naturally understand without looking at it from others perspective.

You are judging the entire character of a man based on only part of the story. I can understand a person having an issue with a controversial statement but to discount the merit and positive works of a man isn't a fair judgement if you are measuring his character.

FWIW I never said Farrakhan or Malcolm X were beacons of social good but what I did say is that they did do positive things - otherwise they wouldn't have gotten people to follow them in any capacity. There are things that even Hitler did that could be seen as positive. There are things we as a country do that can be seen as negative. It's all in the eye of the beholder and the perspective you choose to take.

I guess that's another area where some people will debate. Just because a person may disagree with something that their country does doesn't make them any less patriotic.

Bushytale

03-25-08, 04:52

Rev. Wright did not just say these things one time in 20 years. The statements you are seeing on the "endless loop" come from a DVD that the church was selling in their book store. Obama denied ever hearing these statements and then in the "now famous speech" a few days later, admitted that he had heard them. What kind of judgement does a man and his wife have, that subject their young children to Rev. Wright's kind of ranting.

Bulldog1967

03-25-08, 08:20

Obama Stops Wearing Flag Pin
Oct 4 03:06 PM US/Eastern

WATERLOO, Iowa (AP) - Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama said he doesn't wear the American flag lapel pin because it has become a substitute for "true patriotism" since the Sept. 11, 2001 terrorist attacks.

Asked about the decision Wednesday in an interview with KCRG-TV in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, the Illinois senator said he stopped doing so shortly after the attacks and instead hoped to show his patriotism by explaining his ideas to citizens.

"The truth is that right after 9-11 I had a pin," Obama said. "Shortly after 9-11, particularly because as we're talking about the Iraq war, that became a substitute for I think true patriotism, which is speaking out on issues that are of importance to our national security.

"I decided I won't wear that pin on my chest," he said in the interview. "Instead, I'm going to try to tell the American people what I believe will make this country great, and hopefully that will be a testament to my patriotism."

Obama was campaigning in Iowa Thursday, the second day of a four-day trip to the early voting state.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8S2JKG02&show_article=1

So, instead of "coming together" after 9/11 and flying the flag, like even some of my Democrat friends did after 9/11, he decides to STOP wearing it......okay...speaks volumes to me. :rolleyes:

SHIVAN

03-25-08, 10:58

There is where the spirit of the debate lies though. It's a level of intolerance for ideas other than those we naturally understand without looking at it from others perspective.

I see my world through my eyes, and my experiences. I understand and comprehend what the sentiment was in Wright's tone and message. I also understand that Barack Hussein Obama identified so closely with this man, and his sermons, that he called him an "Uncle".

Intolerance of ideas? You are God damn right I am intolerant of someone saying that white men from America created the AIDS virus to kill black men. You are damn right I am intolerant of someone saying that 3,000+ innocent non-combatives deserved to die because of America's foreign policy decisions. America also sends out trillions of dollars in aid to shithole countries that we should abandon.

Damn right I am intolerant of a man, and his mentee, who would potentially dislike me because I am a "typical white person".

FWIW I never said Farrakhan or Malcolm X were beacons of social good but what I did say is that they did do positive things - otherwise they wouldn't have gotten people to follow them in any capacity. There are things that even Hitler did that could be seen as positive. There are things we as a country do that can be seen as negative. It's all in the eye of the beholder and the perspective you choose to take.

Frank Lucas, Al Capone, Ferdinand Marcos, Fidel Castro, Che Guevarra and many other bad people did VERY, VERY good things in their lives -- according to some people. I do not subscribe to giving these people a free pass on their bad things, just because someone, somewhere, might come forward and claim that they did "good things", and I should count their good deeds higher than their bad ones.

I guess that's another area where some people will debate. Just because a person may disagree with something that their country does doesn't make them any less patriotic.

I don't agree with everything my country does, but I do not publicly dishonor it by holding my hands SPECIFICALLY away from my heart while the National Anthem is being played. Then think that an explanation that includes, "sometimes I hold my hand over my heart, sometimes I don't..." is somehow any kind of explanation at all.

We shall agree to disagree. It's no coincidence that he acts in the fashion he does. I am practically certain that the compilation of comments from his wife and his spiritual guide are what lies in the heart of Barack Hussein Obama.

I think he is laughing inside knowing that he's got 40% of the American people snowed.

What a shame.

MerQ

03-25-08, 11:52

I think that's where you are having a misunderstanding of my viewpoint on the context of the situation.

I think some of the views of some of the people I mentioned are ridiculous and plain wrong. It goes both ways though. If I were to take isolated moments of shame I would be justified in thinking that the current POTUS was a complete "douche" for laughing at the way an inmate died from the death penalty, his refusal to attend the services of the man dragged to death in Jasper, or several other cases that the "other side" uses against him. The same could be said for the VP. If guilt by association is the rage then I should fuming that Halliburton was awarded contracts without fair process - and that they overcharged the government for their services beyond the agreed upon price right? I don't really want to politicize the discussion but I use those to make a point that people can slant things anyway they see fit and the truth is in perception.

I'm not saying the "good" of a person overwrites or trumps the "bad deeds" of that person. I'm ONLY saying it's not fair to come to an ABSOLUTE CONCLUSION of a person without telling the WHOLE story. That was my main point to begin with.

SHIVAN

03-25-08, 12:22

I'm not saying the "good" of a person overwrites or trumps the "bad deeds" of that person. I'm ONLY saying it's not fair to come to an ABSOLUTE CONCLUSION of a person without telling the WHOLE story. That was my main point to begin with.

You're correct. I haven't reached an absolute damnation of Obama, just telling you that with smoke, comes fire.

Mrs. Obama's comments weren't accidental. Nor were Rev. Wright's. Nor were Barack's own "typical white person" comments.

Let's take it down to the brass tacks...

I guarantee that Michelle Obama's comments didn't just sneak up on her in 2008. As I am absolutely 100% positive that Wright's sentiments did not just come over him 7 years ago on 9/11/01.

I also guarantee that Barack Hussein Obama believes that his "typical white person" comment was purely academic and content neutral.

Yet had the shoe been on the other foot, and if McCain had said that any person was being the "typical black person" or that the Mexicans searching for a new life in the US were being "typical latino persons"....there might have been a full out Senate Ethics investigation.

Still not a coincidence.

Blinking Dog

03-25-08, 13:55

WSJ had an editorial on the subject last week. Here's the link:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120602908584052065.html

Perhaps the best line:
"There are many ways of expressing patriotism, and if wearing a flag pin is not Obama's idiom, who cares? It was arrogant of him to imply that his own patriotism was more 'true' than that of pin-wearers, but one could put this down to defensiveness at being asked a "gotcha" question."

SHIVAN

03-25-08, 14:22

Rmplstlskn

03-25-08, 15:20

Ok, that's fine. It's not his "thing". Is that coincidental that he doesn't want to wear the American flag to express patriotism, or is it indicative of his overall view of America?

Based on a few of his less thought out comments, and the comments of his wife and spiritual mentor it would appear that this is merely the accompanying action to go along with the way he feels -- and the way these people have expressed that they feel -- about America.

The more I learn about Obama, the more I KNOW that I have to vote for McCain even though I previously swore I would never vote for him but rather abstain... :(

He is that bad for America!!!!!

His America is not the America formed, nor the America we still somewhat have, it is a whole different bastard child... That is why he can say what he says and hoodwink so many... Sort of like Lenin talking about a better Russia to the Czar... :rolleyes:

Rmpl

ra2bach

03-30-08, 10:30

Ok, that's fine. It's not his "thing". Is that coincidental that he doesn't want to wear the American flag to express patriotism, or is it indicative of his overall view of America?

Based on a few of his less thought out comments, and the comments of his wife and spiritual mentor it would appear that this is merely the accompanying action to go along with the way he feels -- and the way these people have expressed that they feel -- about America.

Obama is more about dividing this country than unifying it. through economic/class-envy/hatred, and PARTICULARLY through racism.

he's a silver-tongued devil but underneath, he is appealing to the deep racist hatred held by Rev. Wright. his subtle hints like not doing the flag pin and hend over heart are easily explained away to an adoring, guilt-crippled white constituency but just like a sly wink, are secret code to the hate-America first crowd that he is "one of them".

personally, I'd rather have Hillary to go against. at least her lies are not so well crafted...