View Full Version : Looking for a Dual-purpose AR (defense/varmint)
I've been lurking and learning for a while now, getting ready to join the AR club. With 1000's of configurations possible I need a bit more advice though.
I was in the market for a home defense AR that I could also use for occasional plinking, but defense was the primary focus. I decided on the Colt LE6920. But then I decided I also wanted a weapon for varmint (coyote, prairie dog) shooting too. My budget isn't going to stretch enough for two rifles so I'm looking for one rifle that will fill both demands. Is there an AR that is good all-around for varmint shooting and home defense?
I just wasn't sure on what barrel length and twist would be ideal for both purposes and wanted to see if anyone uses their AR the way I want to. Not planning on long range varmint shooting, max 200-250 yards. No plans on shooting 1000s of rounds a year either.
I've search this forum and the internet and haven't found anything that helped me out, so any help I can get is greatly appreciated.
Prairie Patriot
03-23-13, 18:21
I've been lurking and learning for a while now, getting ready to join the AR club. With 1000's of configurations possible I need a bit more advice though.
I was in the market for a home defense AR that I could also use for occasional plinking, but defense was the primary focus. I decided on the Colt LE6920. But then I decided I also wanted a weapon for varmint (coyote, prairie dog) shooting too. My budget isn't going to stretch enough for two rifles so I'm looking for one rifle that will fill both demands. Is there an AR that is good all-around for varmint shooting and home defense?
I just wasn't sure on what barrel length and twist would be ideal for both purposes and wanted to see if anyone uses their AR the way I want to. Not planning on long range varmint shooting, max 200-250 yards. No plans on shooting 1000s of rounds a year either.
I've search this forum and the internet and haven't found anything that helped me out, so any help I can get is greatly appreciated.
From what I understand, if you go with a 1:7 twist rifle (the Colt) bullets with a grain less than 50 or so will sometimes cause the bullet to spin itself apart. You could plink varmints with 55 gain ball and probably be just fine. 1:7 twist will stabilize everything up to 77 grain for sure reliably.
If I am wrong about the information above, then someone please feel free to correct me.
Devildawg2531
03-23-13, 18:31
I would get a Colt, DD, BCM, etc top tier 16 '' with a 1:7 twist. Top it with an AimPoint T1. If you only plan to shoot varmints out to 250 yards you it will do this all day. Use a quick disconnect mount for your AimPoint T1 and replace with high quality magnified scope for even better results on your varmint shooting days.
What is nice about the AR is you can buy different uppers to 'specialize" the rifle. Buy the 'Colt' Colts are great" Then if you need more barrel buy another upper later on.
twistedcomrade
03-23-13, 19:07
I would go with a DD with one of their V7 rifles. This would probably fit your requirements nicely. I got to fondle one of these except it was the LW model. I feel in love with it.
Depends on what kind of varmints. My son uses a BCM 16" barreled upper (BCM standard midlength) and it gets right around 1.5 moa groups out of it with handloads. My Daniel Defense M4V7 can do the same thing. This is more than enough for fox and coyotes out to 250 yards. Both these rifles are setup for home defense with weapon lights and red dots. We remove the lights and go hunting. He can see well enough to use a 2moa red-dot out to 200 yards on small targets. I limit myself to 100 yards. When my Trijicon 1x4 gets back from warranty work, it will go back on my rifle and I will be good to go for out to 300 yards.
From what I understand, if you go with a 1:7 twist rifle (the Colt) bullets with a grain less than 50 or so will sometimes cause the bullet to spin itself apart. You could plink varmints with 55 gain ball and probably be just fine. 1:7 twist will stabilize everything up to 77 grain for sure reliably.
If I am wrong about the information above, then someone please feel free to correct me.
It depends on the structural integrity of the bullet. At 5.56/223 velocities, it isn't much of a problem unless using the more frangible bullet designs
...I was in the market for a home defense AR that I could also use for occasional plinking, but defense was the primary focus. I decided on the Colt LE6920. But then I decided I also wanted a weapon for varmint (coyote, prairie dog) shooting too...
You already have the rifle you need. The only real difference between a Colt 6920 for house defense and a Colt 6920 for varmints is ammo and sights.
For HD, just about any current model Aimpoint will work.
For varmints, any sights will do as long as you're aware of their strengths and weaknesses. Iron sights work fine out to as far as your eyesight will allow. Using ironsights on running jackrabbits is both educational and humbling. It will make you a better shot. I haven't tried it yet, but I think the Aimpoint would be better. Still, whether using ironsights, an RDS or scope, jackrabbits are a challenge.
The most versatile sight for varmint hunting with an AR would be a good variable scope, from 3.5x10 up to 5.5x22 according to your budget. The lower end variables will work better with fast moving targets like jackrabbits or close in coyotes and variables with higher end magnification will work better with smaller, more distant targets such as prairie dogs. Ammo selection is important because you want a load that is accurate in your carbine and has fast expansion for humane kills. No FMJ type bullets.
For now, get an Aimpoint and a good variable scope, both with quick release mounts and go shoot. You'll find out your 6920 works better for varmints than most folks give it credit and you'll gain invaluable shooting experience.
Do not wait to get an RDS or an optic sight to go shoot. Some of the most fun I've had hunting varmints was while using rifles with ironsights
Ok, so I was a little concerned with the 16 inch barrel having long-distance accuracy, pardon my ignorance, so that shouldn't be a concern. I know it depends on the shooter's ability, but the average, accurate range I can expect with that length of barrel would be around 300 yards then? And anything above 55 grain will be fine for the 1/7 twist?
Thanks guys, this is exactly the help I was looking for.
[QUOTE=suterwyo;1590082]Ok, so I was a little concerned with the 16 inch barrel having long-distance accuracy, pardon my ignorance, so that shouldn't be a concern. I know it depends on the shooter's ability, but the average, accurate range I can expect with that length of barrel would be around 300 yards then? And anything above 55 grain will be fine for the 1/7 twist?
You 1/7 twist will handle up to 70 grain bullets and achive 300 yard shots.
16 in barrel and 1/7 twist is the setup. Stick around and read, soon you will gain a metric ton of AR info...:p
You should be able to use any commercial 223 ammo in 16" 1/7 twist. A 16" barrel won't make enough velocity to have problems, guys who have seen bullets come apart are probably shooting a 26"+ 22-250 not a 223.
Magic_Salad0892
03-23-13, 21:30
Colt HBAR 1/9 twist maybe?
jonconsiglio
03-23-13, 21:41
Ok, so I was a little concerned with the 16 inch barrel having long-distance accuracy, pardon my ignorance, so that shouldn't be a concern. I know it depends on the shooter's ability, but the average, accurate range I can expect with that length of barrel would be around 300 yards then? And anything above 55 grain will be fine for the 1/7 twist?
Thanks guys, this is exactly the help I was looking for.
Accuracy will not be better because you go longer, it'll nly shoot a little flatter, which out to 250 is not much of a concern. Honestly, I can run my 10.5" at 200 yards all day and shoot just as tight as my 16" 6920 (which I no longer have). you can buy a stainless precision barreled upper if you want better accuracy, but I doubt you'll see much difference at 250.
For me, I run a 14.5" for most hog and coyote hunting ncluding occasional jackrabbits. Munch520 took a skunk (at a bit of a distance compared to everything else) and a raccoon with my 14.5" last month and a few hogs. I've taken hogs at nearly 300 yards with it, though they're usually quite a bit closer.
Use the right ammo and the best optic for your style of hunting. You'll be fine.
There is a lot of Recce/DMR information that you should be looking at. I have a 16" Recce but I don't think it does anything that a 14.5" Noveske "Afghan" wouldn't within 600yds. Don't think longer necessarily equals more accurate.
guitarist1993
03-23-13, 22:01
A 16" barrel can go way past 300 yards. I pushed mine out to 600 today and surprised myself at how well it did.
I built a rifle for the exact purpose you are looking for. LmT lower with 2 stage trigger, BCM 16" stainless upper, DD mfr hand guard. It is an honest to god sub moa rifle and has busted up coyotes from fifty feet to over 400 yards. Scope is a leupold VXR 1.5x4 and I couldn't be happier with the setup.
Search posts by me in the costum build fourm and you will find pics and accuracy review.
By the looks of it you are not planning on taking high round count clases with your carbine so I would suggest getting a complete 16" ss410 upper receiver with the rail that suits you best from BCM. Can't beat the reliability and as far as accuracy for nailing them yotes at distance is hard to beat as well. That's what I did. I got an ss410 recce for my long range and hunting but use my ddm4 v5lw for training and hardcore shit. My $.02
I was in the market for a home defense AR that I could also use for occasional plinking, but defense was the primary focus. I decided on the Colt LE6920. But then I decided I also wanted a weapon for varmint (coyote, prairie dog) shooting too.
The above confuses me (any everyone else).
The 6920 is perfectly capable of serving both duties. Make no mistake about it.
Given what you said about your budgetary constraints, you may want to consider something like a Colt 6900 (1:8 barrel, [supposedly] decent trigger, free-floating handguard...albeit kinda ugly) for LESS MONEY than a 6920, but take the savings and invest it in a better optic for hunting (something you would have to eventually buy anyways).
Or, if you're up for it, you could always piece together a rifle for a reasonable price now that things are starting to stabilize a little bit.
Why should suterwyo get another upper or rifle before trying his hand with the 6920? That money would be better spent on ammo (maybe better sights) and going out & shooting what he already has to see how it will work. Buying another upper without knowing what's needed to fill the role (Remember- Mission drives the gear) means the shooter might getting something that won't work any better- and possibly worse- than what they've already got
MountainRaven
03-24-13, 10:58
Run what you brung.
Get a light, a sling, and a magnified optic with good QD rings (run irons for HD, the optic for varminting). Get an RDS with a good QD mount when you can afford it. Maybe consider getting a FF handguard down the road. Job done.
Keeping in mind that this forum has a general bias towards "tacticool" and there is a more than fair share number of folks who have extensive experience in real world use in tactical situations and not so much in varmint hunting (or remain fairly quiet if they are here), you need to go to the varmint hunting forums to get a sense of what is needed for that.
http://www.arshunt.com/fall2011/fall2011#&pageSet=1&page=0
http://www.predatormastersforums.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=71&page=1
I have done both, but with that said, I do not have the in your face, room clearing, intense CQB work that many here seem or profess to have. I have hunted over my 50 plus years many, many coyotes and squirrels having grown up on a sheep ranch in the West and hunting and shooting is my only hobby as well as spent 21 years in the Marine Corps. I also do not work for "the industry" as some here do so I don't have any particular bias towards one outfit or another.
So with all that out of the way: I have currently 3 (and had 4) AR-15 platforms for defense and hunting. One, a 450 bushmaster upper 18" in rifle configuration with a Spikes Tactical lower, we can discard from the conversation.
The other three, in order of purchase, were a DelTon single-stage trigger M4 config 5.56 6 position with military cutout barrel with a 1/7" twist. It was the least accurate with 1.5-2" fired from rest groups with factory XM193 and like groups with HSM 50 gr ballistic tip. I recently sold this rifle.
The second is a Remington R-15 two stage target trigger .223 fluted free-float 18" 1/9" (no flash suppressor) with a Luepold VX-III 6-18X AO scope. It groups a hair smaller than .75" at 100 yds with HSM 50 gr ballistic tip.
The last is a Spikes Tactical lower single stage nickel-boron trigger, 6 position MOE, with a M&A parts 5.56 16" heavy barrel fluted mid-length gas 1/9" flattop (assembled by LMT with a moly Wilson barrel) standard flash suppressor with standard mid length hand guards and a Luepold VX-R patrol 1.5-4X with the SPR reticle mounted with a Burris P.E.P.R. I bought this for a dual purpose gun to have in the vehicle when in the field and since selling the other, for home use. I bought it because I have a friend who had the same upper and he found it to be super accurate. That is my experience also. It shoots a .4" large ragged hole group with the HSM ammo and sub-1" groups with XM193 at 100 yards.......which I have done 4 or 5 times to verify because I couldn't believe it myself! The gun is plenty good enough to shoot whistle pigs at 100-150 yards with the 4 power scope and perfect for "pop-up" coyotes.
Additionally, it can be used for defense with the lighted fire-dot 1.5X. No, I don't have a ton of tacticool things hanging off of it.....then again, I don't plan on fending off zombies or clearing buildings of terrorists. It will suffice more than adequately for intense personal defense (how did the poor guys defend themselves in WWII with the M-1 Garand or the lowly M-1 Carbine without all of the goodies, I continually wonder). I have added a rail adapter ( http://www.midwayusa.com/product/497814/promag-ar-15-bayonet-lug-picatinny-accessory-rail ) to the bayonet lug that has side loops for my 2 point convertible to 1 point Magpul MS3 sling and when at home, I mount a rail QD pistol light for use out to 50 yards at night. In the field I can mount a bipod for whistle pig shooting (haven't to date...I simply use a portable bipod). I have a MI QD sling mount on the tube just aft of the receiver so I can take the sling off when arriving at the shooting site or use in a single point mode for defense.
So, in my experience, and there are many with other but these are mine, is that you can come up with a nice personal defense weapon that meets your accuracy requirements with a 1/9" (you can find some 1/8" also that work just fine also, I have heard) that work with lighter varmint bullets. Will 1/7" work? Of course, but don't limit yourself to 1/7" unless you plan to shoot squirrels with heavier bullets and potentially preclude the lighter cheaper bullets.
If you want a gun to do both defense and hunting, then you need to configure it to do both, which is a compromise with not all the features of one nor the other. Enjoy your search and good luck.
Here is a "light" discussion on twist in the AR to help you frame your thoughts:
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/08/foghorn/ask-foghorn-barrel-twist-and-which-is-right-for-your-ar-15/
The 6920 is perfectly capable of serving both duties. Make no mistake about it.
This^^^^
There really isn't much a good 16", 1:7 twist AR (BCM, Colt, Daniel Defense, Larue, LMT) can't accomplish in the home defense and varmint categories within 300 yards. And that's without a magnified optic.
Change your ammo from one to another or pick my favorite, the ASYM 70 grain, all copper, Barnes TSX, and use it for anything walking.
Add an Aimpoint T-1 and a sling and it's "look out varmints and would-be home invaders!"
Why should suterwyo get another upper or rifle before trying his hand with the 6920? That money would be better spent on ammo (maybe better sights) and going out & shooting what he already has to see how it will work. Buying another upper without knowing what's needed to fill the role (Remember- Mission drives the gear) means the shooter might getting something that won't work any better- and possibly worse- than what they've already got
I should have been more clear, I have not purchase ANYTHING yet, I wanted to research it a little more and with the information you guys have given me it sounds like the 6920 or comparable, quality rifles will do exactly the job I want. I've got a lot of options to look at.
Now I need to find one for the right price. The 6920 price in my area has dropped and people are listing them for $1450/new but I still need to get it cheaper than that.
Let me see if I can boil it down for you-
A self defense carbine should be as short as practical. Without paying the tax stamp for a short barreled rifle, that means a 16" barrel. It also needs to be reliable.
A varmint rifle needs to be as accurate as practical when prairiedogs are included in the mix. Key word here is practical. A heavy profile barrel isn't needed, just take more time between shots to control barrel heat. Barrel length does not affect mechanical accuracy and a 16" barrel gives enough velocity for good trajectory out to 300 yards- more if the shooter does their part. ARs are an inherently accurate design
An Aimpoint RDS is a very good choice for a defense carbine. A good variable works well for varmints.
Get a reliable AR carbine with a quality barrel and an RDS and a variable scope with quick release mounts. Worry about a free float tube after you shoot the rifle enough to determine if it will make a difference in shot to shot consistency.
The Colt 6920 is an excellent AR
With what you want to do why not go with a Colt 6940? They are identical to the 6920 your already looking at, but with features it sounds like you would benefit from. You could run magnified/variable optics lower on the rail due to the flip up sights thus keeping your optics closer to the bore, and it comes free floated which will help your accuracy. Throw a 1x optic of some sort and a geissele trigger of your choice on it and have an all round performer with second to none reliability. (Btw I have a 6920 and love it. Ordered mine from Grant. Not sure if he has any right now but that's who I'd go to if I ordered again.)
I've been lurking and learning for a while now, getting ready to join the AR club. With 1000's of configurations possible I need a bit more advice though.
I was in the market for a home defense AR that I could also use for occasional plinking, but defense was the primary focus. I decided on the Colt LE6920. But then I decided I also wanted a weapon for varmint (coyote, prairie dog) shooting too. My budget isn't going to stretch enough for two rifles so I'm looking for one rifle that will fill both demands. Is there an AR that is good all-around for varmint shooting and home defense?
I just wasn't sure on what barrel length and twist would be ideal for both purposes and wanted to see if anyone uses their AR the way I want to. Not planning on long range varmint shooting, max 200-250 yards. No plans on shooting 1000s of rounds a year either.
I've search this forum and the internet and haven't found anything that helped me out, so any help I can get is greatly appreciated.
the zone for a clean kill on a coyote is, what, 5-6 inches? prairie dogs???
the bullets you will be using on these varmints are super expanding 40- 50 gr???
I'm not one who thinks a 6920 (or similar) with a red dot sight is a realistic option for what you have asked. if you're a very skilled shooter you can use a duty type rifle with 16" 1/7 twist, chrome lined barrel but I don't think you're giving yourself the benefit of the doubt, especially if you care about the animals you shoot at. and I don't believe anyone who says they can shoot 250 yards with a T-1 and hold 5"...
IMO, 200-250 yards on varmints requires an accurate gun and magnified optics. personally, I would be looking for a BCM 16" 1/8 twist stainless barreled upper and at least a 1-4 or -6 scope. the 1/8 stainless barrel will handle lighter bullets better than a 1/7 and be significantly more accurate with any bullet weight than a chrome lined barrel. and it will still hold all the accuracy of a 6920 for many, many, many thousands of rounds thereafter.
the 1-4/6 scope would be a very good option for self defense, as well as reaching out accurately to the distance you have asked about...
the zone for a clean kill on a coyote is, what, 5-6 inches? prairie dogs???
the bullets you will be using on these varmints are super expanding 40- 50 gr???
I'm not one who thinks a 6920 (or similar) with a red dot sight is a realistic option for what you have asked. if you're a very skilled shooter you can use a duty type rifle with 16" 1/7 twist, chrome lined barrel but I don't think you're giving yourself the benefit of the doubt, especially if you care about the animals you shoot at. and I don't believe anyone who says they can shoot 250 yards with a T-1 and hold 5"...
IMO, 200-250 yards on varmints requires an accurate gun and magnified optics. personally, I would be looking for a BCM 16" 1/8 twist stainless barreled upper and at least a 1-4 or -6 scope. the 1/8 stainless barrel will handle lighter bullets better than a 1/7 and be significantly more accurate with any bullet weight than a chrome lined barrel. and it will still hold all the accuracy of a 6920 for many, many, many thousands of rounds thereafter.
the 1-4/6 scope would be a very good option for self defense, as well as reaching out accurately to the distance you have asked about...
Well said ^^^^^^ See my previous post and you can see that ra2bach and I are saying the same thing.........Again, most of the advice you have received here is from folks who are focused on the tactical side of things. It takes more accuracy than most realize to shoot whistle pigs/prairie dogs. A 4X scope will get you out to 100-125 yards for whistle pigs and out to 200-250 for coyotes, yet with a variable down to 1 to 1.5X it will serve well for defense. I would not get a QD mount if it is going to be a vehicle carry gun. Having lived in the Cheyenne area and currently in southern Idaho, I know what your terrain is like..........Take your time and don't get focused on anything yet as you may disappoint yourself with getting something that is not as accurate as you want.
As for chrome lining, while I am sure there will be somebody to complain about this link, it speaks the truth: http://mapartsinc.com/help/?id=24
Somebody previously had wisely said and I paraphrase, "decide what your mission requirements are and equip accordingly". You will need to do just that. You will need to ID your strictest requirements. Target, bullet choice and distance are going to drive accuracy requirements. Accuracy is going to dictate optics and barrel choice. The ability to use the weapon reasonably for defensive purposes will dictate configuration (length and weight and optics choice). You will have to meld the requirements to design what you want. Budget is going to be a limiting factor. Build your rifle in your mind according to your mission requirements, then see what you can purchase within your budget. With decent optics, mounts and weapon, if you can get everything for less that $2,500 you are going to be EXTREMELY lucky. But you will be better served in saving your money and waiting to purchase something of quality than pay for something you can afford right now that won't serve for what you need.
I would not reduce the usefulness of a defensive carbine for a second purpose. Many here probably feel the same. I would make do with a defensive carbine (and it will do pretty well) until I could afford a second dedicated varmint upper.
A stainless barrel could get you more accuracy, but many are really too heavy to make a good carbine. I'd recommend the same as above, unless you happen upon a great deal on one that is not too heavy.
Low power variables are too expensive or too much of a compromise for both jobs. People seem to forget that their popularity comes mostly from offensive carbine users and the PID requirements with our most recent wars.
Great post Todd.
suterwyo, a standard, chrome-lined AR15 barrel will do what you need it to do accuracy-wise. Your rate limiting factors in this case are going to be (1) Optics and (2) Ammo. Having personally been back and forth quite a bit with a "do-it-all" AR for both hunting and defense without too many compromises, you simply need to own two different optics and two different kinds of ammo.
Optics:
A decent (Leupold, Nikon, Zess) 3-9 or 4-14 hunting scope is exactly what you need for hunting. You don't need a Nightforce with mil-dots, zero stops, and FFP reticle to shoot varmints, but you do need some quality, higher-powered glass.
For the other side of the coin, most will agree that there is no better fighting optic for the AR15 than an Aimpoint. Simple, fast, rugged. Also, a fighting gun needs a sling and a white light.
Ammo:
For varminting and precision, use higher quality match-grade ammo. For defense, you can either use a premium bonded defense load or stock up on a bunch of M855 or M193 (or have some of each). The point I'm making here is that the ammo you shoot will have more effect on your accuracy than your barrel will. I would argue that for durability, corrosion resistance, and ease of maintenance, you would be better off with a chrome lined barrel.
Now, here's my experience to back up these opinions:
Daniel Defense 16" LW Chrome-lined CHF barrel. 1.7MOA with match ammo using a 5X Leupold optic @ 100yds:
http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/20120929_161934.jpg
http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/20120929_161239.jpg
Same barrel holding 1.7 MOA with same ammo out to 500 yds using a 9X Zeiss Optic:
http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/20121208_153205.jpg
http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/20121208_142039.jpg
Get some decent QD mounts and you've got a dual-purpose weapon with a quick switch of the optics. Cheaper than buying a second upper or rifle and does each task better than a compromise optic. I even went a little cheap with my mounts using an Aimpoint QRP on the M2 and Warne QD rings with riser blocks for the scope...it works, though! Better choice would be each optic in a Larue mount.
http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/IMG_1182.jpg
http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/IMG_1180.jpg
I would not reduce the usefulness of a defensive carbine for a second purpose. Many here probably feel the same. I would make do with a defensive carbine (and it will do pretty well) until I could afford a second dedicated varmint upper.
A stainless barrel could get you more accuracy, but many are really too heavy to make a good carbine. I'd recommend the same as above, unless you happen upon a great deal on one that is not too heavy.
Low power variables are too expensive or too much of a compromise for both jobs. People seem to forget that their popularity comes mostly from offensive carbine users and the PID requirements with our most recent wars.
Todd, I would not argue with your logic as you stated it. but I don't think the 16" BCM stainless barrel is too heavy for any defensive work. I have one on my Recce and it's not really significantly heavier than a standard 16". the difference could easily be made up by choice of rail, optic, whatever...
also, I understand your classification of "offensive" vs defensive use and I agree totally. I even break that down further into RDS with the Aimpoint (due to the battery life) being defensive with the Eotech being offensive but that's another discussion...
but a lot of people have shown that they can be quite as fast with a good 1-4 as a RDS. certainly the difference is small enough that the bigger issue is training and time to turn on illum.. add in the fact that a good 1-4 can be found about the same price (give or take, used vs new) as an AP or EO and it gets even cloudier...
one thing I have to remind myself is that MOST people who post here are not professionals. to them, a carbine is a nice tool that has defensive uses as well as sporting and most of these people will never see the limitations of 4140 vs 4150 barrel steel in their lifetimes. to insist that a 6920 (etc..) is the only acceptable carbine while something like a S&W is not, doesn't line up with their needs and uses.
I don't have any junk guns. all my guns (and optics) were chosen to be the most reliable, durable, and accurate that I could get. but I didn't start out this way. I just got there over time by upgrading, trading, and selling then buying up.
we're on the same page. I just don't think that even if every problem is a nail, that a sledgehammer is always the solution...
halfmoonclip
03-26-13, 17:15
Been following this thread, and I'm less than convinced that it can be done on the cheap.
The OP should decide what he wants most (defense or critter sniping) and pursue that, and then get the other, later.
It's still possible to do it with one lower and save a little money, and if, over time, sharing the lower doesn't suit, create a second rifle.
It would seem to me what makes sense is a light, handy KISS carbine for home defense, with fighting sights that allow fast acquisition. Put a Geissele in the lower (I'd go with the SSA to start; it's a clean enough release for varmiting, but heavy enough for scary times), add a weapons light and call it good.
Eventually add another upper with heavy, free floated barrel and big optics for murdering little creatures at great distances. I'm not convinced that it's possible to swap optics back and forth, at least for the long range work; it may be that the fighting optic will come back to 'minute of bad guy'.
Compromises are just that; the OP will have to decide what he can live with if he tries to do it all with only one upper.
Moon
This thread reminds me of a particular phrase...
"Jack of all trades, master of none."
From what I understand, if you go with a 1:7 twist rifle (the Colt) bullets with a grain less than 50 or so will sometimes cause the bullet to spin itself apart. You could plink varmints with 55 gain ball and probably be just fine. 1:7 twist will stabilize everything up to 77 grain for sure reliably.
If I am wrong about the information above, then someone please feel free to correct me.
Noveske tested this (I think it was John himself, pretty sure it was Joel I spoke to the three-ish years ago I called them up) and found it to occur only at extremely high speeds (3000+ FPS), with extremely tight twists, and most importantly with weak bullets and bullet designs. If your 16" 1:7-twist barrel is spinning bullets apart, they would've been spun apart by any ol' barrel.
but a lot of people have shown that they can be quite as fast with a good 1-4 as a RDS. certainly the difference is small enough that the bigger issue is training and time to turn on illum.. add in the fact that a good 1-4 can be found about the same price (give or take, used vs new) as an AP or EO and it gets even cloudier...
Which 1x4's are you seeing for the same price as an Aimpoint? I haven't shopped them much, but the NSX is around 1200 and the short dot is over 2k, right?
Which 1x4's are you seeing for the same price as an Aimpoint? I haven't shopped them much, but the NSX is around 1200 and the short dot is over 2k, right?
The Burris XTR 1-4X can be found for RDS prices. So can the, Leatherwood/Hi-lux, Vortex Viper PST, Nikon M-223, and the Leopold Mark AR scopes, for the budget minded.
The Burris XTR 1-4X can be found for RDS prices. So can the, Leatherwood/Hi-lux, Vortex Viper PST, Nikon M-223, and the Leopold Mark AR scopes, for the budget minded.
The Luepold VX-R Patrol with SPR firedot works well for me. Lighted at 1.5X for defensive use, unlighted 4X for varmint use. $585 delivered
http://www.opticsplanet.com/leupold-vx-r-patrol-illuminated-riflescope-1-25-4x20mm.html
As for accuracy: 1.7" groups with match ammo is not very good when talking varmint shooting, at least not good enough for shooting prairie dogs/whistle pigs at 100 yards. You would want to be able to shrink that by half if you could. A gun may be more inherently accurate than that, but because of a large lighted dot, you may not be able to hold a precise POA.
http://quarterbore.com/library/articles/varminting.html
http://www.varmintal.com/ashot.htm
A jack of all trades, but a master of none is exactly what he wants. Unless you are going to be clearing rooms in CQB or having to shoot zombies, which damn few folks are going to do, no matter their personal fantasies of EOW scenarios or shoot whistle pigs out to 500/600 yards, you do not need to build to the extreme ends of either weapon spectrum and there is middle ground to be had that can do both.....I know, I have one and do with it just what the OP is proposing to do with his.
How well a basic rifle fills nearly any role would surprise many people. My son had fun hunting prairie-dogs with a lever action .22
You don't need a golfbag full of rifles to fill every role. The reality is, a basic carbine that's reliable with a quality barrel is very versatile. In all honesty, many accessories are not needed. Specialty rifles do certain tasks better, but usually cost more and for how much gain? The majority of fitting a rifle for a specific task lies with selecting the right sight. Look how well the Mosin Nagant sertved as a sniper rifle. It isn't particularly accurate, is clumsy to operate and used a low powered scope. Yet it was was very effective on the battlefield. A standard M4 with a low powered optic is even more effective. Yet folks think we need all kind of stuff to make it work
Which 1x4's are you seeing for the same price as an Aimpoint? I haven't shopped them much, but the NSX is around 1200 and the short dot is over 2k, right?
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=127175
Noveske tested this (I think it was John himself, pretty sure it was Joel I spoke to the three-ish years ago I called them up) and found it to occur only at extremely high speeds (3000+ FPS), with extremely tight twists, and most importantly with weak bullets and bullet designs. If your 16" 1:7-twist barrel is spinning bullets apart, they would've been spun apart by any ol' barrel.
most pelt hunters use a very fragile 40-45gr bullet for coyotes. speeds for this would be over 3300fps. most of the guns that shoot that bullet are 1/12 twist.
How well a basic rifle fills nearly any role would surprise many people. My son had fun hunting prairie-dogs with a lever action .22
You don't need a golfbag full of rifles to fill every role. The reality is, a basic carbine that's reliable with a quality barrel is very versatile. In all honesty, many accessories are not needed. Specialty rifles do certain tasks better, but usually cost more and for how much gain? The majority of fitting a rifle for a specific task lies with selecting the right sight. Look how well the Mosin Nagant sertved as a sniper rifle. It isn't particularly accurate, is clumsy to operate and used a low powered scope. Yet it was was very effective on the battlefield. A standard M4 with a low powered optic is even more effective. Yet folks think we need all kind of stuff to make it work
exactly. but while some people here want to stretch a duty type rifle over to precision use, I would sooner swerve a more accurate stainless barrel to duty use. it's about the same price as a BFH upper with more accuracy...
exactly. but while some people here want to stretch a duty type rifle over to precision use, I would sooner swerve a more accurate stainless barrel to duty use. it's about the same price as a BFH upper with more accuracy...
Yes. A quality stainless steel barrel would work great.
16" BCM BFH middy with a rail of your choice and a quality 1x4. Winner, winner chicken dinner.
When qualifying in the Marines I used to regularly whack 10 out of 10 in the 5 ring at 500m prone using a standard issue M-16A2 (with god only knows how many rounds fired through it), peep sights and standard issue ball ammo. That despite me being extremely nearsighted and not wearing corrective lenses. I find it difficult to believe a modern M4 style rifle and commercial ammo is not capable of shooting groundhogs or coyote without being specialized to the task.
I guess I'll find out for myself soon once my 'smith finishes my 14.5 upper. I will be disappointed if it shoots minute of barn door at 200 yards considering my pellet guns are capable of at least 1.5MOA at 100 yards and under 1/2MOA at 50 yards.
In case you are an Easterner and have never seen or shot a whistle pig in the Rocky Mountain West. Whistle pigs and rock chuck are two different things. A whistle pig (piute ground squirrel in Idaho) is about 8" long and about 1.5 " wide. A rock chuck (ground hog) is about the size of a medium dog. Shooting whistle pigs at 100-200 yards requires sub-MOA accuracy, rock chucks doesn't require near the accuracy. Coyotes certainly don't either. And I am not saying get a specialized gun. I have a mid-length 16" M-4 style with a heavy fluted wilson barrel with standard flash suppressor without all the tacticool rails on it other than a small one on the bayo lug to attach a light. I do have an optic that serves dual purpose (leupold VX-R Patrol) I had it out yesterday shooting whistle pigs....is it as good as my bolt 17 HMR out to 100 yards? Hell no, but it also doesn't have a 12 power scope so it is hard to see them and get a good hold on them. It is as accurate enough with sub-MOA though, only being limited at beyond 100 yards by a 4 power scope to get a bead on the little fellows.
Remember what the OP wanted....a DUAL-PURPOSE gun. So he needs some decent optics and some better than average accuracy with a M-4 size package.
Using your accuracy comparison of the 500 meter Bravo target (which is 40" x 20") you would only require a 4" MOA (20" wide at 500 meters). Again whistle pig that is 1.5" wide at 100 meters = 1.5" MOA ........B target at 500 meters = 4" MOA
So...........to shoot little things at 200 meters can NOT be compared to shooting the B Target at 500 meters if you are saying all you have to do is hit it 10 times out of 10.
Before you launch off......I have shot at both, getting my share of KD courses in 21 years.
16" BCM BFH middy with a rail of your choice and a quality 1x4. Winner, winner chicken dinner.
Yes, yes it would be!
travellightfreezeatnight
03-29-13, 09:59
I've been lurking and learning for a while now, getting ready to join the AR club. With 1000's of configurations possible I need a bit more advice though.
I was in the market for a home defense AR that I could also use for occasional plinking, but defense was the primary focus. I decided on the Colt LE6920. But then I decided I also wanted a weapon for varmint (coyote, prairie dog) shooting too. My budget isn't going to stretch enough for two rifles so I'm looking for one rifle that will fill both demands. Is there an AR that is good all-around for varmint shooting and home defense?
I just wasn't sure on what barrel length and twist would be ideal for both purposes and wanted to see if anyone uses their AR the way I want to. Not planning on long range varmint shooting, max 200-250 yards. No plans on shooting 1000s of rounds a year either.
I've search this forum and the internet and haven't found anything that helped me out, so any help I can get is greatly appreciated.
I put together a rifle with exactly this criteria in mind (except the low round count, wanted it to handle as many rounds as I could afford to put through it in a year, year after year)
I use a 16" 1/7 twist with 55 vmax and Nosler BT for coyotes, accuracy is excellant out to 200 yd (have not personally tested these further), and no problems with your concerns on the boolits spinning apart. This, IMHO is a 250 yard coyote setup. Calculated drop is 3.6 inches with a 200 yard zero at 250 (becomes 8.9 at 300). Your milage may vary, but here in michigan, most shots are well under 200 yards due to woods and hills, very few oppertunities for further shots. I think this is the easier part of you question. Any quality AR with a flat top, 16 inch barrel will fill both rolls just fine. Mine is a BCM with CHF barrel.
The more difficult question is what optic/no optic to run. I started with a Leupold vari x 3, 1.75 x 6 in a Larue quick detach mount. Was it perfect for both rolls? Probably not. but it worked. This mount will return to zero close enough (easily less than 1/2 in at 100 yards) for coyotes. For home defense, the scope was removed and the BUIS employed and this is the way it normally would be found. When funds allowed, I added an Aimpoint, also on quick detach. I now do all my hunting with Aimpoint (2 MOA dot.) It is very capable of hits on coyote size game out to 200 yards. It is very easy to keep rounds inside an 8 in circle from field shooting positions. As a side note, My Daughter also used the setup, with aimpoint and 62 gr fed fusion to bag her first Deer this past Sept. at 50 yards with one shot!
Whatever you decide, practice is key to determining what you and your rig are capable of. Do I think 300 or 400 yard shots on coyotes is plausible? yes, but I would not personally take that shot in the field, I owe the game more respect than to take questionable shots for my ability and kit setup.
good luck
semper fi
Using your accuracy comparison of the 500 meter Bravo target (which is 40" x 20") you would only require a 4" MOA (20" wide at 500 meters). Again whistle pig that is 1.5" wide at 100 meters = 1.5" MOA ........B target at 500 meters = 4" MOA
So...........to shoot little things at 200 meters can NOT be compared to shooting the B Target at 500 meters if you are saying all you have to do is hit it 10 times out of 10.
Before you launch off......I have shot at both, getting my share of KD courses in 21 years.
I'm glad you shot at 500m targets in the Marines, Semper Fi. How well do you qualify? Do they make an Expert badge with a 21st award thing under it?
So, what you're saying is that my pellet guns are accurate enough but an AR15 is not? LOL, well, I guess I'm either going to be really disappointed or some of you guys can't shoot longer distances.
I've embarrassed a few centerfire rifle shooters at the 100 yard range with my pellet guns and thought they just couldn't shoot for shit. I would have never thought an AR15 isn't accurate. Who woulda thunk it?
They do make 11 award bars! Back in my day, once you made Major, you only qualified with a pistol. Now it is LtCol or less.
Expert every trip at pistol and rifle.
ARs can be accurate platforms, but most with chrome lining are 1.5-2 MOA shooters and that is 3"-4" at 200 meters. When you are shooting at something that is 2" wide, then you need something that shoots a smaller group than 2" at 200 meters!
I was out shooting rock chuck this morning with a Remington R-15 two-stage trigger with a free-floated, fluted 18" barrel with a Luepold 6-18x VXIII in .223 with 50 grain V-max AE Federals...........it shoots .7 MOA with that factory load and I was popping the ( significantly bigger than whistle pigs) chucks in still wind at 300 yards. 11 shots, 9 chucks. One miss due to shooting at just a head sticking up, the other I pulled to the right. The AR platform can be VERY accurate.
Semper Fi.
No need for a specialized AR for your needs. Get the Colt and you can use it for everything you want to do. Just about every AR on the market right now is accurate enough for Varmit work at the ranges you expect to shoot too! Shoot 55 gr SP ammo. Or go to 60gr SP and it should be very accurate in the 1:7" twist. If you reload the options for making varmit ammo are large. You can mount a scope on that Colt if you need long range percision! Only thing you may want to do is get a nice after market trigger.:D
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