View Full Version : Some Recent Observations In The AR World
Back in September while I was up in Wisconsin I decided that I was going to push ahead with providing an AR15 Armorer Course that would be open to civilians, law enforcement and military alike. I have done classes in Wisconsin, Georgia, Houston, Arizona (3x), Alaska, and California.
Over the next few months I will be doing classes in Georgia again, California, Utah, Florida as well as Ohio and another Alaska trip. I want to share some of my observations in the classes thus far.
I remember reading in various locations on the net, civilians were disappointed that they couldn't attend most of the armorer courses that are out there, especially the AR ones. In fact, there are very few companies or people that provide such a course that allow them to attend. It has always been my goal to encourage those that I work with in hosting the classes to allow civilians to attend and for the most part this hasn't been an issue. I am however a little disappointed at the level of participation and turn out.
Here are some other observations.
1. There are alot of people who still don't seem to understand how the AR system works and the interaction of all the parts in relation to one another.
2. There are quite a few AR's out there that have been assembled with shitty parts. I have found what appear to be airsoft buffers, aluminum castle nuts, parts that were out of spec and of dubious origin. In one case the shitty pistol grip with the wrong grip screw and shitty molding led to the grip screw hole getting stripped.
3. There are alot of people who think that "parts are parts".
4. I have seen numerous AR's that were assembled improperly. Everything from crooked carrier keys to loose FSB's and everything in between.
5. There is a lack of understanding on how to troubleshoot and where to begin the troubleshooting process. I believe this is due to #1 above as well as a lack of understanding the names of parts.
6. Lubrication still seems to elude many as does the way to clean their weapon.
7. I am still amazed that people don't understand the importance of good ammunition and magazines. This is generally the beginning of most malfunctions.
I cannot stress this enough. If you want to build or buy a quality AR you need to use quality parts or understand what those parts are. You need to thoroughly check those parts prior to installing them.
If you are unsure of what you need to do, find someone who you know can do it. Use the proper tools! If you don't have them, buy them or find someone to loan them to you. Above all else seek some training or do some research first, not after you have bought something.
HackerF15E
03-26-13, 06:20
Do you find these observations to be noticeably different than any other time in recent years? Are AR-pattern owners/maintainers getting collectively more ignorant, or is the pool of them just getting so much larger that there are just more ignorant folks in the mix?
Are most of your armorer course attendees gunsmiths looking to broaden their knowledge, AR-15 owners/shooters who are trying to get smarter, or something else?
In all fairness those are observations one could make about most anything that humans take an intrest in since there will always be those that are simply too cheap or too dumb to care about completing the task the right way regardless to what the task is. Observe most any hobby or profession and the same corner cutters are present and accounted for.
"If you're gonna be dumb you gotta be tough"
Five_Point_Five_Six
03-26-13, 06:56
IG, I would love to take your armorers course here in WA that's coming up(it may have already came and went:confused:) but due to prior obligations I cannot. If you're back in this area again, I will be attending.
As far as the noobness, one gun shop owner told me that they've sold more AR's since Aurora/Sandy Hook than they sold immediately after the AWB expired. It also doesn't help when most gun store employees tell customers that BM/Oly/Stag/Rock River/Ruger/DPMS rifles are every bit as good as Colt, BCM, or Daniel Defense.
Again, I hope your course here in WA is a success because if you come back I will definitely attend.
I remember speaking with you IG just after the armorer course you put on in Houston. In conversation I was thinking participation was going to be high, high enough that most will have taken the course and not enough interest would be there for a second course that I could participate in. The turn out ended up not being that good, I am hoping this does not deter you from hosting another here in Houston as I graduate in a month and my brother comes back home from Iraq in a couple months. I think this is something he would like to do with me.
Troubleshooting, problem solving, intellectual curiosity, etc all seem to be sorely lacking across the board. Blaming "magic" seems to be de rigueur nowadays.
I'd love to take one of you're classes.
LarryPhoto
03-26-13, 07:55
When do you think you maybe holding a course in Florida?
Please don't be discouraged, IG, most beginnings don't start with a bang. Having started a successful company by myself, and another with my partner George (Battle Arms Development), the beginnings almost always look somewhat stark. Persevere and overcome, we need folks like you sharing your wisdom.
I think part of the problem, as you may have mentioned, is simply some folks don't know what they don't know.
It may sound stupid, but what should be common sense appears to be rather rare. It's but human nature though, some folks are receptive to new information, even if it contradicts what they had previously believed to be true, while some others are more set in their ways, and refuse to believe information based on immutable facts.
As your reputation grows, you may look back at the good old days when you could still go shooting and have some time to yourself ;)
The fact they showed up to a class should be at least somewhat encouraging.
-john
I would love to attend a class like this... I know how the AR works, but I'm sure there are a lot of little niche things I don't know about it.
The one thing you mentioned that irritates me the most is that people think "parts are parts".
Like someone said above, folks simply don't know what they don't know.
In all fairness those are observations one could make about most anything that humans take an intrest in since there will always be those that are simply too cheap or too dumb to care about completing the task the right way regardless to what the task is. Observe most any hobby or profession and the same corner cutters are present and accounted for.
"If you're gonna be dumb you gotta be tough"
You said almost word-for-word what was going through my mind when reading the OP. The only thing missing is: Too lazy to learn how an item works and why it functions the way it does.
LittleBallOfHate
03-26-13, 08:39
I know I'd trust the one I was issued. Somebody figured it out and we used 15k rounds in the training leading up to Iraq. Plenty of time to become familiar with the workings of the biggest life saving piece of kit you'll carry.
Boggles my mind that people don't learn them inside and out.
Good post.
People don't know what they don't know.
What they realize they don't know, they tend to learn from others...who don't know what they don't know.
Everyone wants to talk, wish, want, and propose, but few will put their money on the counter when it comes time to make it happen. Parts, training, that new model they pushed a manufacturer for.
It takes time, mentoring, training, and lots of shooting.
I.G makes some great points.
I could have built an AR in my basement but I realized I did not have the right tools or training to do so...therefore I bought a DD
caelumatra
03-26-13, 09:39
IG when you plan for your next classes where will you put that info? I must have not seen any announcement of your GA class last time and would be interested in going when you return to GA
I was seeking financial advice a while back and one of the points that stuck with me seems relevant here.
The financial advisor said that people tend to take financial advice from their relatives or good friends, even though those people may be in just as bad, or even worse, financial shape as the person seeking the advice.
It may seem like common sense, but he advised me to seek people who are doing very well, have the extra money and the time to enjoy it. The point was, even though it seems obvious, people just naturally want to listen to others who are in the same boat as they are.
I think it applies here. A person is just more likely to take advice from good ol' Uncle Billy who has owned an AR for 10 years even though he may have only fired it occasionally, cleans it poorly, doesn't have the training to understand how to take care of it or maintain it, etc.
If you don't have the patience and drive to look into the field and see things like BCM's "filthy 14" or listen to LAV or Pat Rogers' opinions of guns they see run hard and often, then you end up sticking with your local gun store guy or Uncle's advice and buy that "just as good" rifle. The really strange part to me is how people will often pay the same money for that questionable AR.
So, IG, I think you just have to accept the fact that not everyone will appreciate or even want your expertise, no matter how knowledgeable you might be on the subject. Don't let that stop you from passing that knowledge on to those that want to learn it though!
Well 'Gunz,
You have your work cut out for you.
The need for training is overwhelming.
ETA:
If it doesn't already, your class should specifically address these recurring issues.
IG, ...
As far as the noobness, one gun shop owner told me that they've sold more AR's since Aurora/Sandy Hook than they sold immediately after the AWB expired. It also doesn't help when most gun store employees tell customers that BM/Oly/Stag/Rock River/Ruger/DPMS rifles are every bit as good as Colt, BCM, or Daniel Defense.
Again, I hope your course here in WA is a success because if you come back I will definitely attend.
Yes. The all-knowing gun store owner who tells noobs that brand X, which he just happens to have in stock, is the absolute best there is. Not knowing any better they purchase said rifle and head to the range. Then, wanting to know more they do research and find their rifles are somewhat lacking.
I.G makes some great points.
I could have built an AR in my basement but I realized I did not have the right tools or training to do so...therefore I bought a DD
I did the same, complete DDV1. I had someone recommend that I buy a complete, before hand I was ignorant and had no idea what I would have been getting myself into trying a build as my first. Now I am on my first build and I am taking it very slow and I am attempting to be fully aware. I need it to be safe and I need it to work and do both exceptionally well. I would love to learn the in's of my AR, not just the out's and that's what I am trying to now do. I would take a Armors course in a heartbeat.
Some people do not care, that's the sad part and that's where I truly see IG's point.
I recognize long ago that there are some very skilled trigger pullers out there that aren't really "shooters". A true shooter requires a LOT more than just a gun an ammo.
ScatmanCrothers
03-26-13, 11:29
IG when you plan for your next classes where will you put that info? I must have not seen any announcement of your GA class last time and would be interested in going when you return to GA
+1. I understand it wasn't the intention of the thread but I'd be interested in more info on a GA class too.
I have a question that sort of fits here, in regards to building your own rifle, or adding new parts.
Many of the questions (and answers) in the technical forum are regarding buffers and action springs; what are the correct ones to use in a particular gun and so forth.
Are there too many variables to have factory ready guns come with the "correct" action spring and buffer? If the variables are not that many, why are factory guns having issues for some people, and not for others?
I have a question that sort of fits here, in regards to building your own rifle, or adding new parts.
Many of the questions (and answers) in the technical forum are regarding buffers and action springs; what are the correct ones to use in a particular gun and so forth.
Are there too many variables to have factory ready guns come with the "correct" action spring and buffer? If the variables are not that many, why are factory guns having issues for some people, and not for others?
Lots of factory guns suffer from issues most commonly linked to lack of lube, crappy mags, crappy ammo, and people screwing around with the buffers/springs and such for no reason.
"If you're gonna be dumb you gotta be tough"
unclerandy
03-26-13, 13:37
Where will the California course be?
When will you be in Alaska and where will you be holding your class? Would love to learn the inner workings of my DD.
IG when you plan for your next classes where will you put that info? I must have not seen any announcement of your GA class last time and would be interested in going when you return to GA
He'll be in McDonough May 11-12! Shoot me a PM and I'll send you the details.
A class has been set with Shoot Straight, Inc. in Tampa. May 18/19 2013. They are the POC for registering and sign ups.
When do you think you maybe holding a course in Florida?
Hard to say. I think one dynamic in play is the rise of the FrankenAR. I also contribute part of it to those who rushed to buy something and put it together or they bought a complete AR (without doing homework) and then decided to shoot it.
My classes have been a mixture of civilians wanting to learn more, some people in the business with FFL's and law enforcement. The class in San Francisco had 15 police officers in it from several Bay Area agencies.
Do you find these observations to be noticeably different than any other time in recent years? Are AR-pattern owners/maintainers getting collectively more ignorant, or is the pool of them just getting so much larger that there are just more ignorant folks in the mix?
Are most of your armorer course attendees gunsmiths looking to broaden their knowledge, AR-15 owners/shooters who are trying to get smarter, or something else?
Not discouraged. Just trying to figure out my plan of attack. Also, spreading the word.
Please don't be discouraged, IG, most beginnings don't start with a bang. Having started a successful company by myself, and another with my partner George (Battle Arms Development), the beginnings almost always look somewhat stark. Persevere and overcome, we need folks like you sharing your wisdom.
I think part of the problem, as you may have mentioned, is simply some folks don't know what they don't know.
It may sound stupid, but what should be common sense appears to be rather rare. It's but human nature though, some folks are receptive to new information, even if it contradicts what they had previously believed to be true, while some others are more set in their ways, and refuse to believe information based on immutable facts.
As your reputation grows, you may look back at the good old days when you could still go shooting and have some time to yourself ;)
A class has been set with Shoot Straight, Inc. in Tampa. May 18/19 2013. They are the POC for registering and sign ups.
Excellent. Calling tomorrow.
No argument here. I am simply pointing out what things I am seeing and hopefully people will look closer at what they have now and do a thorough check.
The fact they showed up to a class should be at least somewhat encouraging.
-john
Generally speaking a properly built factory rifle/carbine from the known manufacturers will run as it should. The problem starts when the end user decides to change buffers or springs (and doesn't know why), using crappy ammunition (Tula, Wolf, etc..) and then fails to lube the weapon properly.
A simple rule of thumb is that most properly built carbines gas systems will run with an H buffer and sometimes H2. Your middies will most often run with an H buffer.
I have a question that sort of fits here, in regards to building your own rifle, or adding new parts.
Many of the questions (and answers) in the technical forum are regarding buffers and action springs; what are the correct ones to use in a particular gun and so forth.
Are there too many variables to have factory ready guns come with the "correct" action spring and buffer? If the variables are not that many, why are factory guns having issues for some people, and not for others?
I am working with Reeds Gun Shop in Santa Clara, CA and we are looking at a June time frame. They will be doing the signs ups and registration.
Where will the California course be?
We are looking at something in late May or June. There will be one in Anchorage and possibly another the following weekend in Seward area.
When will you be in Alaska and where will you be holding your class? Would love to learn the inner workings of my DD.
BluegrassGunGuy
03-26-13, 17:31
Do you plan on having one in Kentucky in the future? If not, where and when is the one in Ohio, is there a site or thread to get info?
I've already built what I feel is a quality gun, there is always something to be learned though.
I'm definitely interesred in one of your armorer courses the next time you do one in Georgia or nearby.I can possibly interest some others also. Thanks for offering this. I think it's mandadory for any serious AR shooter.
Some people just aren't hands on type people as hard as they try. I saw it in the car world. To me, it's all nuts and bolts but to others it's just sheer confusion and it overwhelms them no matter how many times it's explained.
Come to Fayetteville.
if you have a class in SW colorado or western slope i can count at least 6 people that i know will attend. if finding a venue helps please pm me durango gun club has their indoor range availible as a classroom
We are looking at something in late May or June. There will be one in Anchorage and possibly another the following weekend in Seward area.
Redback One will be conducting training up here from 14 May to 19 May, so watch out for overlap. Your companies draw from the same small pool in Alaska. It'll be cool to see you up here again.
There is a class in McDonough, GA May 11/12 2013 at the Henry County PD Training Room. It's open to civilians.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=123499
I'm definitely interesred in one of your armorer courses the next time you do one in Georgia or nearby.I can possibly interest some others also. Thanks for offering this. I think it's mandadory for any serious AR shooter.
See below. There is a class next month in Berea, OH which is near Cleveland.
Do you plan on having one in Kentucky in the future? If not, where and when is the one in Ohio, is there a site or thread to get info?
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=120858
I've already built what I feel is a quality gun, there is always something to be learned though.
Doug,
Roger. I am just waiting for Josh to send me his work schedule.
Redback One will be conducting training up here from 14 May to 19 May, so watch out for overlap. Your companies draw from the same small pool in Alaska. It'll be cool to see you up here again.
How can I get details on your Utah course?
polymorpheous
03-26-13, 23:02
I'd say make this post a sticky, but the new guys don't read them anyways.
Once it has been finalized it will go in the Misc. Training and AAR Section. There are alot of classes there, not just mine. There are also AAR's there from classes that have been taught.
I encourage our members to look around there and see what may be near them in the future.
How can I get details on your Utah course?
Hey Iraq, where does Georgia fit into your schedule (Civilian Course)? If timing permits, I would more than likely bite.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=123499 My classes are open to everyone regardless of whether or not they are civilian, LE or military. The sole exception would be if the agency doesn't allow it.
Hey Iraq, where does Georgia fit into your schedule (Civilian Course)? If timing permits, I would more than likely bite.
Generally speaking a properly built factory rifle/carbine from the known manufacturers will run as it should. The problem starts when the end user decides to change buffers or springs (and doesn't know why), using crappy ammunition (Tula, Wolf, etc..) and then fails to lube the weapon properly.
A simple rule of thumb is that most properly built carbines gas systems will run with an H buffer and sometimes H2. Your middies will most often run with an H buffer.
Thanks.
User induced issues seems to be a recurring theme.
Please come to Washington!
piesandcheese
03-27-13, 17:07
I am going to reiterate what another member touched on.
Most of this bad information comes from the local gun store owners/salesmen.
I think people new to the AR platform seek out to purchase the best they can afford, and end up getting swindled by their local gun store. I'd be willing to bet that new AR buyers who have the inclination to do research online don't know where to look for good information.
This is just a thought, but before I got into the AR platform, I never knew that it's military designation was "M4". When I typed "AR-15 information" into google, this forum didn't show up. I'm not a tech guy, but is there something that could be done with google to direct more people to these forums with a more expansive list of search tags?
Just a thought. I don't know how this website is ran, and I'm certainly no I.T. person.
A class is already scheduled in Bellevue at West Coast Amory but we are not getting enough interest so it may not happen.
Please come to Washington!
I'm interested in the Santa Clara date. What's the cost, and how does it work? Do I bring MSR?
had to do it on the 6th and 7th I am very tempted but if I am a no show to my own wedding I wont need the course i will be dead man walking unless... do you have a honey moon package? :p
After reading some of the comments and hearing first hand, there are a lot of new owners. Some of those owners are a find out as they go. Lots of threads on that. Plus, the mentality of, "it isnt rocket science so how hard can it be."
I think those observations you made were great. Is there a way to have those observations turned into answers for some of those? Just as a side note, there are a lot of AR's that are being put up for sale. People are finding out that there is some amount of care and knowledge needed for these rifles. They are not a simple rifle like grandpa's, but more like a watch. All the "cogs" have to be taken care of properly. One cog out of place and this watch can hurt you or your loved ones. I too am guilty of some of these. Fortunately, I found this place, and a gun smith I trust.
IG, if you have anything coming up in AZ, I would like to know. I'll bring the sun block..
Scottsdale Gun Club will be hosting it for the 3rd time July 13/14 2013. Sign ups are conducted through them.
After reading some of the comments and hearing first hand, there are a lot of new owners. Some of those owners are a find out as they go. Lots of threads on that. Plus, the mentality of, "it isnt rocket science so how hard can it be."
I think those observations you made were great. Is there a way to have those observations turned into answers for some of those? Just as a side note, there are a lot of AR's that are being put up for sale. People are finding out that there is some amount of care and knowledge needed for these rifles. They are not a simple rifle like grandpa's, but more like a watch. All the "cogs" have to be taken care of properly. One cog out of place and this watch can hurt you or your loved ones. I too am guilty of some of these. Fortunately, I found this place, and a gun smith I trust.
IG, if you have anything coming up in AZ, I would like to know. I'll bring the sun block..
As soon as the date is nailed down, you will need to contact Reeds Indoor Range in Santa Clara. We are looking at June. What is MSR?
I'm interested in the Santa Clara date. What's the cost, and how does it work? Do I bring MSR?
As soon as the date is nailed down, you will need to contact Reeds Indoor Range in Santa Clara. We are looking at June. What is MSR?
modern sporting rifle
In researching my first AR, I can't tell you how many times people have suggested that I "save some money and just build my own". It is no wonder you run into so many ill-conceived frankenguns.
I ignored that advice and instead took the safe route, I ordered a DD.
I'd be willing to bet that new AR buyers who have the inclination to do research online don't know where to look for good information.
I am very new to AR's. Before my recent purchase, I last shot one in 1977. (M16) I don't see a class in Portland Or any time soon. There is tons of information on this forum. But it's all in little pieces scattered about. Is there a good book that starts with the basics and then takes you down to a pile of parts and puts it back together. Maybe I failed with the orange button, but I didn't get anything back from a search.
I have a cheap gun (M&P Sport) that reviewed well on web. But isn't so highly thought of here. Next one will probably be built from scratch. I need a reference that can take me from my current newbie status to the point where I can ask the right questions in these forums and understand the answers. I can build a bicycle from a pile of parts. I figure I can learn an AR.
In researching my first AR, I can't tell you how many times people have suggested that I "save some money and just build my own". It is no wonder you run into so many ill-conceived frankenguns.
I ignored that advice and instead took the safe route, I ordered a DD.
Not so much the build your own as it is the "build your own with dogshit parts."
Grand58742
03-29-13, 09:19
Any classes being scheduled in Oklahoma or Norte Tejas in the near future? I saw the schedule and didn't see any classes or dates past May or anywhere close to my location.
Sorry if this is thread drift, just wondering.
I have been trying to line something up in Amarillo or OK, but been unable to get any boots on the gound to set up a venue or find enough interest.
Any classes being scheduled in Oklahoma or Norte Tejas in the near future? I saw the schedule and didn't see any classes or dates past May or anywhere close to my location.
Sorry if this is thread drift, just wondering.
I have been trying to line something up in Amarillo or OK, but been unable to get any boots on the gound to set up a venue or find enough interest.
Have you considered DFW?
Scottsdale Gun Club will be hosting it for the 3rd time July 13/14 2013. Sign ups are conducted through them.
Great Location!!
They havent posted anything yet. Please hit me up on this as I am always looking to improve.
grantw1221
03-30-13, 18:19
I'm in Lubbock and would love to get some classes under my belt. Sadly no one thinks to come to West Texas
Suwannee Tim
03-30-13, 18:57
1. There are alot of people who still don't seem to understand.......
2........I have found what appear to be airsoft buffers,.....shitty pistol grip......shitty molding.....
3. There are alot of people who think that "parts are parts".
4. I have seen numerous AR's that were assembled improperly.........
5. There is a lack of understanding........
6......seems to elude many........
7......people don't understand the importance of good ammunition and magazines.
Welcome to the wonderful world of the shooting public Gunz. I long ago concluded that shooting attracts much, much more than it's fair share of "personalities".
Three examples from my recent experience:
An "expert" who can talk for ten minutes about the importance of having the correct "fuel to air ratio" in reloaded ammo. Strangely, this guy gets pretty good results. He hunts the world over despite being so out of shape he shoots at 50 yards because he can't walk 100 yards.
A man I know to be wealthy who shoots Mosin Nagants from the bench at 50 yards, that's all he ever does for two or three hours, two or three days a month, 50 yards from the bench. He wants to go clear every five minutes to walk down because he is too cheap to buy a spotting scope.
A new member of the club who, first thing on the range, points his rifle at me. As I gently try to explain to him he should not do so, he picks the rifle up to show me the open bolt indicator, on a clear line. We send him to the office for remedial viewing of the safety video, within five minutes of his return he is again pointing his rifle at other shooters, again on a clear line.
Just another day on the range.
Don't get me wrong, not everyone on the range I shoot at is a dumbass, my buddies include two physicians, a bank vice president, a retired astronaut, Distinguished Masters in Service Rifle and Bullseye Pistol..... Still for every one who has his shit together there is at least one real dumbass.
Here are some other observations.
1. There are alot of people who still don't seem to understand how the AR system works and the interaction of all the parts in relation to one another.
2. There are quite a few AR's out there that have been assembled with shitty parts. I have found what appear to be airsoft buffers, aluminum castle nuts, parts that were out of spec and of dubious origin. In one case the shitty pistol grip with the wrong grip screw and shitty molding led to the grip screw hole getting stripped.
3. There are alot of people who think that "parts are parts".
4. I have seen numerous AR's that were assembled improperly. Everything from crooked carrier keys to loose FSB's and everything in between.
5. There is a lack of understanding on how to troubleshoot and where to begin the troubleshooting process. I believe this is due to #1 above as well as a lack of understanding the names of parts.
6. Lubrication still seems to elude many as does the way to clean their weapon.
7. I am still amazed that people don't understand the importance of good ammunition and magazines. This is generally the beginning of most malfunctions.
Yeap the most basic concepts with dealing with firearms. Of all my years, concept of lubrication and rust is a big one that people can't grasp.
You would be amazed at all the collectable stuff I have ran into over the years, that would be worth multiple thousands that is covered in rust.
I believe it is already posted on their Facebook page. All you have to do is walk in and tell them you want to sign up.
Great Location!!
They havent posted anything yet. Please hit me up on this as I am always looking to improve.
I tried to work with two different locations there and they didn't pan out.
Have you considered DFW?
http://www.scottsdalegunclub.com/index.php/training-courses/sioncs-ar15-menu
Great Location!!
They havent posted anything yet. Please hit me up on this as I am always looking to improve.
Not so much the build your own as it is the "build your own with dogshit parts."
Well right, but how many first timers are going to actually build something without dogshit parts? It just seems like poor advice to give someone that has no idea what they're doing (e.g. me).
Not really. It's called RESEARCH the same way your would for a new flat screen TV, car, computer, etc...
Guess how many people build or attempt to build something and then come to M4C or elsewhere asking for advice? It happens all the time.
Well right, but how many first timers are going to actually build something without dogshit parts? It just seems like poor advice to give someone that has no idea what they're doing (e.g. me).
If I can learn how to build ak's from YouTube and google searches, I think people should be able to assemble a working AR. ;)
Read some of the threads here for a while and let me know how that's working out.
If I can learn how to build ak's from YouTube and google searches, I think people should be able to assemble a working AR. ;)
I guess it's like so many other things. The information is out there, it just needs to be sought out.
mkmckinley
03-31-13, 08:40
It's more a matter of separating the grain from the chaff. There's a lot of BAD Information out there and a lot of self proclaimed experts putting it out. For instance in there's a post in the NFA section where a guy's 10.5" upper won't run and a gunsmith opened the gas port when he should have addressed the chamber or just added a heavier buffer. Now the guy has a barrel with an over size gas port and a tight chamber. The problem is widespread. I bought a fancy "how to put an AR together" manual from Brownells and it's full of bad information like use loctite on the RE nut. If I hadn't been following IG's post for a long time and just went off that book I'd have a bunch of f'd up REs right now.
http://www.scottsdalegunclub.com/index.php/training-courses/sioncs-ar15-menu
Awesome! I was looking on the calendar on their home page. See ya there!
I think it all boils to two aspects.... 1) shit sells and 2) shitty sales people sell shit.
It might sound a little cliche, but most local gun shops are operated by fools who think that a DPMS is the pinnacle of rifle technology. Most aren't educated on what a quality AR is. Even less have read a TM and focused on what the standard is. Add in the fact, that they are more concerned with selling the rifle than educating and you have a recipe for disaster.
Now the fool looking for an AR comes in to a local gun shop and is bamboozled by the LGS clerk. The fool leaves thinking he has a great deal and some super high-speed Spec Ops rifle. That mentality is allergic. The guy (thinking he has a good deal) tells his friend. It just spreads like wild fire.
Add in that most crap components are also cheap components and the majority of uneducated consumers aren't able to understand the difference, so they go with the cheap crap. Go to any gun show and you'll see unknown brand optics (with a rainbow reticule) flying off the shelves before you see anyone pick up an Aimpoint / Eotech for $400 more. No one even knows what they are buying, they just buy it because they think it will suffice.
There isn't a gun shop that I can walk into and find a quality AR part in. I wish more local gun shops were like C4GRant or BCM and sold qaulity. But it is what it is.
The same concept is played out at Wal-Mart daily. There's a reason why Samsung and Sony cost more than let's say, Vizio.
Those that know, know.... those that don't, don't have a clue.
Edit -
For those interested in learning more about the AR platform...I will say I learned a tremendous amount from the 2 day course from IraqGunz.... I highly recommend it.
Yes. The all-knowing gun store owner who tells noobs that brand X, which he just happens to have in stock, is the absolute best there is. Not knowing any better they purchase said rifle and head to the range. Then, wanting to know more they do research and find their rifles are somewhat lacking.
All the more reason for researching before purchasing. I knew beforehand I had neither time, skills or tools to build my own. I had the money to by Colt M4.
Rootbrain
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