View Full Version : nickel boron or black nitride BCG
I apologize in advance if this question has been asked already.
I've recently begun my first build and have been searching for only the highest caliber of components (pun intended). I had all but settled on a nickel boron bolt and carrier but just stumbled upon one having undergone a black nitride treatment. So far they seem similar in that they are both pitched as somewhat self-lubricating. Even so; I fully intend on responsibly lubricating my rifle. Anyways, I'm curious if anyone can provide more information on these different coatings and which may prove more durable and better functioning.
Thank you for reading:)
I was discussing this with a friend of recently and we were thinking that the supercoatings almost seem to stop the lubricant from adhering to the carrier. I have noticed this with my black Ion bonded BCM carrier.
I was discussing this with a friend of recently and we were thinking that the supercoatings almost seem to stop the lubricant from adhering to the carrier. I have noticed this with my black Ion bonded BCM carrier.
That would make sense. Phosphating is extremely porous.
That's what we concluded as well. If anything I would really just want the tail section of the bolt to be treated where the carbon is dumped into the carrier.
That would make sense. Phosphating is extremely porous.
That would make sense. Phosphating is extremely porous.
So the better it collects carbon, the better it holds on to lubricant. But something that doesn't hold carbon due to smoothness and has a nitride or NiB layer doesn't need as much lubricant. Hm.
Less porous = less friction. Less friction = less wear. That is why you do not use sandpaper for "Slip and Slide" mats.
Less porous will hold the lube less, but then again less will be required for ANTI -FICTION lubrication. Lube does other things too, like being a medium to remove carbon and other contaminants and acts as an anti-corrosive.
So yes, less lube holds to the BCG, but less should be required, all things considered.
The assumption that holding less lube means something requires less lube hinges on the idea that: (insert favorite lubricant here) has a lower coefficient of friction than (coating x).
The carrier may be slicker for NiB vs. Phosphate, sure. But what you may want to ask is this: Is NIB slicker than my carrier drenched favorite lube?
I'm sure some material engineers can aid us here.
Black Nitride/QPQ, Ionbond and NiB are totally different.
I don't get it. Lubricating BCG's with everything from 30 weight motor oil to Slip 2000 has worked on phosphate coating for years. Are people spending $50-100 more on treated BCG's just to use less lubrication? (I guarantee over the life of a BCG you won't spend that much on lube).
Or are they just too lazy to lube in the first place?
I believe it is the idea of an extended amount of use between lubrication.
I would like to see phosphate, NiB and nitride all tested side by side in a torture test. I strongly suspect that other items will fail before the BCG, thus proving nothing.
I believe it is the idea of an extended amount of use between lubrication.
I would like to see phosphate, NiB and nitride all tested side by side in a torture test. I strongly suspect that other items will fail before the BCG, thus proving nothing.
Yep. The NiB BCG I have in one of my weapons seems easier to clean and that might be the only benefit to them as they all get lubed the same by me.
assaultrecon28
03-27-13, 14:57
I have read about NiB carriers getting stuck in the reciever after be fired and stowed away in the safe, something to do with carbon build up
I've done various tests on my own with NiB BCGs vs. phosphate. All else being equal (lots of lube on both, as it should be) the NiB absolutely has less friction.
Time after time, repeatably, using adj. gas, and various A5 buffers, I can get any of my rifles to shoot a certain way (very soft, yet still maintain fast cycle rate.) I've then immediately thrown in a soaking wet BCM or other phosphate carrier and had issues (not cycling properly/locking back on the last round etc.) I would have to increase gas and possibly change buffers to get the phosphate carrier to cycle properly - basically converting the rifle back to more of a wide open gas, normal buffer, default setup. Then it functioned just fine - no better, no worse.
I've tried this probably 3 times with the same results. The NiB carrier (with lube) lets you tweak stuff you normally can't with a phosphate carrier. I think that's why a lot of 3gun products are polished and/or use various coatings etc. They allow some further room for adjustment because there's less friction.
I had my AR10 carrier NiB'd and that made a huge difference in how my 308 cycles. That heavy 308 carrier felt like I was dragging a ball and chain through sand (exaggeration) when I'd pull it back and forth through the upper just using gravity. Now it feels completely different. It just slides back and forth with little effort and I was able to turn the gas way down on it and still have it function reliably when dirty/full of carbon, in the cold.
So IMO there's absolutely no question as to there being less friction with NiB on a carrier. It is not a replacement for lube, but both complement each other greatly. I'd never run without lube no matter what the marketing guys say.
And that right there is what got NiB it's bad name - it was marketed, and still is, as a "replacement" for lube. That killed it for a lot of people right there (myself included), because they know they're FOS. I'm sure you can run without lube to a point. Why would you want to? Do they really think heavy, moving, dissimilar metal objects scraping/crashing into each other under high heat over and over without lube is a good idea?
I have one of each, both perform very well, if I had to choose one I think the NiB carriers seem to feel a little smoother, but both have been awesome ( I run them well lubed regardless.)
IMHO the primary benefit advanced coatings offer is reduced carrier friction, noticeably less than even lubed phosphate.
Your common 16" mids and 14.5" carbines with carbine/H1 buffers and stock action springs will hardly see a functional benefit from a low-friction carrier. Neither will an overgassed setup. However, a 14.5" middy or something tuned to be soft-shooting could use that extra edge to keep it operating with weaker ammo or when very dirty.
The advanced coatings win here. You could achieve close to that level of low friction (for free) by polishing the rails and bearing surfaces, but the con is poor lube retention on those surfaces and therefore less corrosion resistance. The one thing you have to watch out for is tolerances - most coatings add thickness, which may cause problems such as a tight bolt in the carrier or tight carrier in the upper.
FWIW FireClean sticks to NiB, so you can have your cake and eat it, too :)
One thing I've always wondered about is whether or not the polishing done before coatings is the biggest benefit in the whole equation.
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I've done various tests on my own with NiB BCGs vs. phosphate. All else being equal (lots of lube on both, as it should be) the NiB absolutely has less friction.
Time after time, repeatably, using adj. gas, and various A5 buffers, I can get any of my rifles to shoot a certain way (very soft, yet still maintain fast cycle rate.) I've then immediately thrown in a soaking wet BCM or other phosphate carrier and had issues (not cycling properly/locking back on the last round etc.) I would have to increase gas and possibly change buffers to get the phosphate carrier to cycle properly - basically converting the rifle back to more of a wide open gas, normal buffer, default setup. Then it functioned just fine - no better, no worse.
I've tried this probably 3 times with the same results. The NiB carrier (with lube) lets you tweak stuff you normally can't with a phosphate carrier. I think that's why a lot of 3gun products are polished and/or use various coatings etc. They allow some further room for adjustment because there's less friction.
I had my AR10 carrier NiB'd and that made a huge difference in how my 308 cycles. That heavy 308 carrier felt like I was dragging a ball and chain through sand (exaggeration) when I'd pull it back and forth through the upper just using gravity. Now it feels completely different. It just slides back and forth with little effort and I was able to turn the gas way down on it and still have it function reliably when dirty/full of carbon, in the cold.
So IMO there's absolutely no question as to there being less friction with NiB on a carrier. It is not a replacement for lube, but both complement each other greatly. I'd never run without lube no matter what the marketing guys say.
And that right there is what got NiB it's bad name - it was marketed, and still is, as a "replacement" for lube. That killed it for a lot of people right there (myself included), because they know they're FOS. I'm sure you can run without lube to a point. Why would you want to? Do they really think heavy, moving, dissimilar metal objects scraping/crashing into each other under high heat over and over without lube is a good idea?
I have also found that NIB carriers will cycle and lock back with less gas.
twistedcomrade
03-27-13, 21:24
Sounds like a one these coated BCG could be useful if a person shoots a lot of weaker Russian ammo? No hi-jack intended.
I don't get it. Lubricating BCG's with everything from 30 weight motor oil to Slip 2000 has worked on phosphate coating for years. Are people spending $50-100 more on treated BCG's just to use less lubrication? (I guarantee over the life of a BCG you won't spend that much on lube).
Or are they just too lazy to lube in the first place?
Well, what I was thinking...
I want to be able to pull a rifle out and shoot it even if I haven't shot it in a year and have it run. So far what I have found is after a while all lubes dry out and don't work including dry lube.
SylntSleepr
03-27-13, 22:13
I have had my AR for 2 months and cannot seem to stop stripping it and lubing and stripping and putting it back just to do it again tomorrow. I find it somewhat relaxing and each time I feel more familiar with it.
Can it be done too many times?
Will I wear it down just from taking it down so much?
I use a mix of STP, Mobil 1, and a special ingredient suggested by a Vet...
Are there better cheaper options than leftover motor oil?
I also noticed in the cleaning your rifle thread that a bore snake was not mentioned... are they bad for the barrel?
Thank you for any replies.
Heavy Metal
03-27-13, 22:58
I use a mix of STP, Mobil 1, and a special ingredient suggested by a Vet...
Yeah, I know a guy who made somethign similar. Called it his special 'IPSC Sauce'.
Worked great in the summer.....locked the gun up in the winter, turned into syurp.
I have had my AR for 2 months and cannot seem to stop stripping it and lubing and stripping and putting it back just to do it again tomorrow. I find it somewhat relaxing and each time I feel more familiar with it.
Can it be done too many times?
Will I wear it down just from taking it down so much?
I use a mix of STP, Mobil 1, and a special ingredient suggested by a Vet...
Are there better cheaper options than leftover motor oil?
I also noticed in the cleaning your rifle thread that a bore snake was not mentioned... are they bad for the barrel?
Thank you for any replies.
The more senior guys here may correct me on this but...
You can over a looooong time widen the takedown pin holes. I don't worry about this.
I don't personally clean my barrels until I get over 1000 rounds through them or even longer. I'm not using a high enough powered optic, accurate enough ammo, or barrel grade that will let me see a huge difference from frequent cleaning. Cleaning can actually change your zero btw. You can also wear the barrel quite a bit by cleaning too much improperly.
I use a bore snake every 300 rounds or so. I do a thorough cleaning every 1000. It's easy but not as good as using patches. It isn't going to hurt your barrel. It's just a fast alternative between major cleanings for me.
SylntSleepr
03-28-13, 06:38
Yeah, I know a guy who made somethign similar. Called it his special 'IPSC Sauce'.
Worked great in the summer.....locked the gun up in the winter, turned into syurp.
Thanks. I must ask what the temp was where his locked up....it has snowed here for the past 2 weeks and mine seems fine. It's consistency is still of a liquid, not so much syrup. Do you have any recommendations for an alternative? I like the idea of the NiB BCG and may upgrade sooner than later but I don't want to lube it any less than the norm. From what I've read, ARs like to run 'wet'. And boy do I like to get it wet.
Thank you
SylntSleepr
03-28-13, 06:42
I use a bore snake every 300 rounds or so. I do a thorough cleaning every 1000. It's easy but not as good as using patches. It isn't going to hurt your barrel. It's just a fast alternative between major cleanings for me.
Okay, so between you and foxtrot, major cleaning at 1000rds and snake it at roughly 300rds. I like this method and will give it try.
Thank you, fellas.
The best finish in my experience is that which you find on a Colt or BCM carrier. Not 40 grit like the fukking LMT ridiculousness.
Those hold the lube and are smooth enough that they cycle well too.
I've got Hard Chrome, Nickel Boron, and Failzero parts. None of them are bad... but none of them are better than a standard finish.
firstsoundhere
03-28-13, 10:15
Has anybody run similar tests between chrome-coated BCGs (such as RRA) and Ni-Bor BCGs?]
Which would have less friction/wear?
Has anybody run similar tests between chrome-coated BCGs (such as RRA) and Ni-Bor BCGs?]
Which would have less friction/wear?
None of mine seem to wear. :confused:
The standard carriers just rub a little finish smooth and take a set. Wear is a non issue for all of the finishes in me experience.
I'll bet that chemical cocktail is just wonderful to breath in. Especially suppressed.
I have had my AR for 2 months and cannot seem to stop stripping it and lubing and stripping and putting it back just to do it again tomorrow. I find it somewhat relaxing and each time I feel more familiar with it.
Can it be done too many times?
Will I wear it down just from taking it down so much?
I use a mix of STP, Mobil 1, and a special ingredient suggested by a Vet...
Are there better cheaper options than leftover motor oil?
I also noticed in the cleaning your rifle thread that a bore snake was not mentioned... are they bad for the barrel?
Thank you for any replies.
I'll bet that chemical cocktail is just wonderful to breath in. Especially suppressed.
So what's a few brain cells and genetic mutation? :p
SylntSleepr
03-28-13, 14:56
So what's a few brain cells and genetic mutation? :p
LOL! It's actually not so bad, just smells like motor oil, almost as if I'm laying under the car. My bottle of Hoppes #9 is waaay stronger though!
What are some better alternatives other than what's on the market?
What are some better alternatives other than what's on the market?
I think Gunz is alluding to the simple solution of Froglube. It took me a while to convert over to it as there have been a ton of lube scams before it....
But it really works, and is totally non-toxic. You can wash it out of your clothes, and get it on your skin, etc.
SylntSleepr
03-28-13, 15:13
Thanks, markm. The concoction I use came from a 'nam Vet, my father. Sounded odd, but he claims it works great and so far, even in the cold, no issues. I've also read about others using motor oil as well.
Froglube, eh? I will look it up and try it out. I like the sound of it washing out and is nontoxic.... Motor oil, not so much.
Thanks again
crusader377
03-28-13, 15:17
I apologize in advance if this question has been asked already.
I've recently begun my first build and have been searching for only the highest caliber of components (pun intended). I had all but settled on a nickel boron bolt and carrier but just stumbled upon one having undergone a black nitride treatment. So far they seem similar in that they are both pitched as somewhat self-lubricating. Even so; I fully intend on responsibly lubricating my rifle. Anyways, I'm curious if anyone can provide more information on these different coatings and which may prove more durable and better functioning.
Thank you for reading:)
I would just buy a standard BCG for a quality manufacturer (BCM, Colt, etc...) and use the money that you saved into buying ammunition or optics. I'm not convinced that the BCG with special coating have any significant advantage over a standard BCG that is lubed.
I would just buy a standard BCG for a quality manufacturer (BCM, Colt, etc...) and use the money that you saved into buying ammunition or optics. I'm not convinced that the BCG with special coating have any significant advantage over a standard BCG that is lubed.
The thing is... with the panic scenario. Many of the Coated carriers were left available to purchase. I too will always pick a standard finish... but I'm running a few nutty finish carriers just because of availability.
None of mine seem to wear. :confused:
The standard carriers just rub a little finish smooth and take a set. Wear is a non issue for all of the finishes in me experience.
I bet that's the case nearly 100% of the time. My last phosphate BCG from BCM was a little rough initially when using the charging handle but 100 rounds smoothed it out nicely.
I don't have one of the new finish BCGs to compare it to but roughness when racking the CH is gone now - to the point where I doubt most people could tell the difference. For those who do want to try something new just follow the sage advice that folks have shared here forever - buy quality, don't buy any old plated turd.
Thanks to everyone for all the responses! Some really great feedback! I agree with many of you that a well lubed phosphate carrier should definitely get the job done...but those of you with NiB BCG experience have had nothing but good things to say about them... The AR that I've begun building (and for which this bolt and carrier is for) will be my first. It will be a tool. I plan on running it hard, taking as many carbine classes as possible, and training with it to the point that I feel confidently proficient in it's use. What I mean is, there may be a time when I put a thousand rounds through it (maybe more) without getting a chance to clean it. I'd like to maximize its chances of running without failure; hence my leaning towards a "supercoating" as Iraqgunz put it.
Has anyone owned a black nitride carrier? I dont recall anyone saying so
Thanks again for all the feedback! Much appreciated!
. What I mean is, there may be a time when I put a thousand rounds through it (maybe more) without getting a chance to clean it. I'd like to maximize its chances of running without failure; hence my leaning towards a "supercoating" as Iraqgunz put it.
In the good ol'days when ammo was plenty and prices were not retarded. I put 800 rounds through my AR in two days, it already had a around 500 through it, so without a cleaning it had almost 2,000 rounds through it. I lubed it to almost dripping after the first couple rounds of that shooting trip since it was running dry and gritty, the EWL I had kept it running after that, even with dirt and other nasty stuff that got all over it and it.
The basis seems that the NiB coatings and others are meant to replace the need of lube in a filthy gun. Though people still say that they would lube the BCG anyway, so whats the point?
I seriously thought about the Nickel Boron coatings, however, I have found EWL keeps the gun chugging along.
So basically, you need lube and not necessarily cleaning, I have had gun my gun jam without lube, though I do know if a coated BCG would help. There are people-like Pat Rogers Filthy 14- who put thousands, ten thousands in the case of Filthy14, with no cleaning just lube. So lubed carriers work, I think a coated BCG will give a false sense of security that could lead to trouble.
The best finish in my experience is that which you find on a Colt or BCM carrier. Not 40 grit like the fukking LMT ridiculousness.
Those hold the lube and are smooth enough that they cycle well too.
I've got Hard Chrome, Nickel Boron, and Failzero parts. None of them are bad... but none of them are better than a standard finish.
Ridiculousness? All I run is LMT and I don't see any ridiculousness.
Ridiculousness? All I run is LMT and I don't see any ridiculousness.
Do you have one of those 40 gritters? Maybe not all of their carriers are the same level of brutal roughness....
But the enhanced ones are perfect for stoning calloused feet. :D
Ridiculousness? All I run is LMT and I don't see any ridiculousness.
Have you tried other carriers other than LMT? Try licking each to test.
I agree with DemiMark, their carriers were designed with a loofah in mind. I couldnt even get their enhanced carrier to cycle smoothly with 8.00 of Slip on it or lithium grease. They are just rough compared to others. All that being said, I picked up the RCA BCG because it was available, and I think I could shave with it, almost mirror like finish.
I agree with DemiMark, their carriers were designed with a loofah in mind. I couldnt even get their enhanced carrier to cycle smoothly with 8.00 of Slip on it or lithium grease.
Apparently they smooth out after a mag or two.... Just NOT in my gun. I had the same experience.
Obviously you guys don't see the value of an LMT BCG in sanding and polishing the inside of an upper.:D
Obviously you guys don't see the value of an LMT BCG in sanding and polishing the inside of an upper.:D
It's when they wear a window in the upper that I get concerned. :p
Ming_the_Merciless
03-29-13, 12:27
I apologize in advance if this question has been asked already.
I've recently begun my first build and have been searching for only the highest caliber of components (pun intended). I had all but settled on a nickel boron bolt and carrier but just stumbled upon one having undergone a black nitride treatment. So far they seem similar in that they are both pitched as somewhat self-lubricating. Even so; I fully intend on responsibly lubricating my rifle. Anyways, I'm curious if anyone can provide more information on these different coatings and which may prove more durable and better functioning.
Thank you for reading:)
More important than the exterior coating, is ensuring the BCG is made out of quality materials, the carrier keys are staked, the bolt been MPI, and have the proper extractor spring, insert or O-ring combination installed. Though there's nothing wrong with the spec'd phosphate coating, one benefit of NiB coated surfaces is it does make it easier to perform a white-glove inspection, as some people can be overzealous in their cleaning - stripping the carrier, bolt or receiver of the phosphate or anodize finish. Aside from coating the BCG, NiB does bond to aluminum substrates, as an alternative to the hard coat anodizing. And unlike other coatings that must be stripped prior to reapplication, one could reapply the NiB directly, sort of plate back up to tolerance on extreme wear parts that are expensive to replace. Whereas nitriding is a case hardening technique for ferrous alloys that substantially improve surface hardness while maintaining a ductile core. The case depth is dependent on temperature, time in temperature, and the agent used, but typically are performed as part of the heat treating process, as either the salt bath or gaseous atmosphere are performed at temperatures at 1,000 F. However, if improperly performed, could result in the loss of ductility which could result in embrittlement and premature fracture.
I've used a variety of different coated BCGs, from the standard phosphate finished, hard chrome plated, QPQ (nitrided), and NiB coated, and though carbon fouling is easily wiped off below ~500 rounds, for the chrome and NiB coated BCGs, any round counts past this and you'll still get caked on carbon fouling on boat tail of the bolt, and recesses of the bolt carrier. So for a 'white glove' clean, expect to spend the same amount of time when it comes time to clean, especially with high round counts. I’ve also noticed that NiB coatings do tend to stain, especially with ammonia based solvents, Hoppes will be fine, but left to soak over night there is a notable difference from an area left to soak and not. I personally prefer hard chrome assuming all things are equal. However, all things being equal, properly lubed AR can last thousands of rounds without cleaning, as shown with Pat Roger of EAG Tactical putting well over 25,000 rounds prior to cleaning – ran with a standard phosphate BCG.
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8154/7547099060_115bb70649_b.jpg
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8281/7547098576_cbfce31249_b.jpg
It's when they wear a window in the upper that I get concerned. :p
Hey if they can do it with a P-Mag................
I was discussing this with a friend of recently and we were thinking that the supercoatings almost seem to stop the lubricant from adhering to the carrier. I have noticed this with my black Ion bonded BCM carrier.
Very curious about this. I was thinking about getting my BCG ionbonded because I read it did the opposite; everyone was saying it actually held on to lube the longest. The reports I read said it apparently retained lube and released it as needed. When you lubed this BCG would it retain lube for a longer period of time? Or did it really just not hold lube?
Can it be done too many times?
Will I wear it down just from taking it down so much?
I have read that it will put hair on your palms... err... no, wait... that was doing something else too frequently.
If they could make a BCG that was too slick to hold any lubricant, that would be fine. The friction points on the other components that contact the BCG will hold lubricant just fine.
I have both NiB and "Black Nitride" BCG's -- three NiB (Spikes, FZ, WMD) and two Rubber City Black Nitride. I prefer the Black over all three NiB's. I run the RCA's in my BCM and Colt, and my NiB's in my other BCM, and my two LMT's. After 14,000 rounds through them all (total) the RCA's seem to hold up better and have fewer (zero, actually) problems.
Not sure why, or if it's just coincidence.
I've only noticed four thin rails of contact with the receiver on the entire BC (plus where it rides over the hammer and 'five' if you count the rail above the cutout as two consecutive rails).
As far as I know the bolt itself rides inside a chromed chamber which is on all BCs.
google find:
http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac26/jonzina/Les-Baer-AR-15-BOLT-CARRIER-GROUP.jpg
From my perspective, the only problem with either NiB coating or nitride treatment on a bolt carrier is the original chrome lining inside... It seems the only way to do it properly would be to have it done on a quality carrier before the chrome plating was applied. Has anyone ever tried to acquire an unfinished E-carrier from LMT? Having one of those coated or, preferably, nitrided would be optimal IMO... I wonder if we could do some sort of group buy? :meeting:
As far as the actual bolt goes, I'm not sure nitride would be best in that situation. I recall one member on here had just about every non-aluminum part of his AR nitrided and later wondered if he should have skipped the bolt - reason being that the tip of the firing pin he had done broke off because the hardened outer layer created by the nitride penetrated the entire part, making it very hard, but brittle as well. I would be concerned about the potential for a broken extractor or broken lugs on a nitrided bolt. I am personally considering having the cam pin nitrided though, although I have to do some more research to find out if there is any potential to increase its strength by doing so. I think the main thing to be gained by NiB coating on a bolt is easier cleaning. Definitely a benefit, but not really an essential by any means. Hopefully you are running enough lubricant that you don't need to worry about corrosion on the bolt, and the inside of the carrier is already chrome lined to reduce friction.
I think the Filthy 14 thing is a real testament to the excellence of BCM and the overall bolt design, but I've noticed that people often omit this one sentence from the original article:
"At Wamego, Kansas, in June 2009, two bolt lugs broke at 16,400 rounds. We replaced the BCG. Considering the firing schedule, this is within normal parameters." (http://www.slip2000.com/blog/s-w-a-t-magazine-filthy-14/)
jerrysimons
06-01-13, 02:29
From my perspective, the only problem with either NiB coating or nitride treatment on a bolt carrier is the original chrome lining inside... It seems the only way to do it properly would be to have it done on a quality carrier before the chrome plating was applied.
In the case of nitride treatment, the hardened serface replaces the standard chrome lining in the carrier and gas key.
In the case of nitride treatment, the hardened serface replaces the standard chrome lining in the carrier and gas key.
By replace, do you mean to say that it is ok to nitride a surface that has already been chrome lined/plated? Do you have anything to back this up? (This is purely a question and not meant as an attack in any way.)
jerrysimons
06-01-13, 03:52
By replace, do you mean to say that it is ok to nitride a surface that has already been chrome lined/plated? Do you have anything to back this up? (This is purely a question and not meant as an attack in any way.)
No, I should clarify that RCA bcg never get chrome plating in the carrier or key. Instead it has a polished and hardened black nitride treated surface that serves the same function. I don't know what process is done when guys send their BCG off to be treated with nitrided or coated.
I just bought a Rubber City Armory group for a price that's not too much above the going rate for a standard GI-type bolt and carrier. I'll stick the RCA in my 300BLK and see how it runs with extended use while suppressed.
Black Nitride is NOT a coating. Black Nitride is trademarked by H&M Metal Processing, this company has been nitriding for all major OEMs in the business for about a decade. Starting with the S&W M&P line. Clearly they know their shit. The same family owns Rubber City Armory. With that being said, I have run my RCA BCG at multiple shooting events with Chris Cerino who is the director of operations at RCA. The BCG is incredible, the carbon just wipes right off. Look for the light weight competition carrier on the website if you are a serious shooter. The entire Noveske team just ordered RCA light weight BCG's for their competition AR's.
H&M may have trademarked the name "BlackNitride", but ferritic salt bath nitro carburizing is not new and they are not the only ones that do it.
I have an RCA BCG and am very pleased with it.
I wish H&M would process parts a la carte rather than a $200 minimum though.
H&M may have trademarked the name "BlackNitride", but ferritic salt bath nitro carburizing is not new and they are not the only ones that do it.
I have an RCA BCG and am very pleased with it.
I wish H&M would process parts a la carte rather than a $200 minimum though.
They may not be the only ones nitriding but they are hands down the best and the ONLY American owned nitrider in the country. You get what you pay for, a perfect part. Or you can risk it and try isonite (Japanese) or Melonite (French)
I have two RCA, bcg's. Both have extremely reliable and very simple to clean. I personally have not tried NIB as of yet but wouldn't hesitate purchasing another RCA. jmo
I have two RCA, bcg's. Both have extremely reliable and very simple to clean. I personally have not tried NIB as of yet but wouldn't hesitate purchasing another RCA. jmo
Are you running either of these with a suppressor?
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K.L. Davis
10-12-13, 14:29
It seems the only way to do it properly would be to have it done on a quality carrier before the chrome plating was applied. Has anyone ever tried to acquire an unfinished E-carrier from LMT?
When you purchase carriers from the manufacturer, you get a choice of
Bare - no flash chromed bore and no outer plating/finish
Flash chromed bore only, no outer plating/finish
Chromed bore and whatever outer plating/finish you want.
If you send a batch of carriers that have the chromed bore out for a plating or finish that will not work with the chrome, the plating shop strips the chrome before they apply their process... and they charge you extra for it!
jerrysimons
10-12-13, 18:59
No kidding...
I have long wanted an LMT E-Carrier polished and nitrided by H&M like the RCA carrier.
They may not be the only ones nitriding but they are hands down the best and the ONLY American owned nitrider in the country. You get what you pay for, a perfect part. Or you can risk it and try isonite (Japanese) or Melonite (French)
The problem is their shitty attitude and crazy tolerances. They are all over the place. I had a bolt from them with both minimum and maximum specs. Nothing was near middle of the road. Needless to say, neither my Daniel Defense, nor Noveske played well with it, so I mailed it off to a company that dissected the tolerances for me so I could figure out why. I love the concept but its not a mature product yet, and their abrasive CS, snide letters to their customers, and general attitude is going to sink them before they get it right, I fear.
Isn't the idea with black nitride and similar treatments the idea that the surface is so hard and smooth that the accumulation of carbon actually works like powdered graphite?
87GN has a review or YouTube video where he shoots a NiB carrier dry alongside a standard carrier. If memory serves, the NiB carrier actually sort of galls and binds up after awhile.
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The video was easier to find than I had expected.
http://youtu.be/Flju7NvWJ3c
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and dont get them wet ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlUwOR4Tq10&feature=youtu.be
mastiffhound
01-13-14, 10:12
Please forgive me for the somewhat necro-post but what was the consensus for the best coating, plating, or finish? Black nitride, NiB, or chrome? I would guess it's not chrome, only because nobody seems to be selling them anymore. What about RCA's BCGs? From the one of the videos it looked as if your one to shoot and clean on rare occasions then NiB isn't so hot? Would this be that Black Nitride is the winner?
"what was the consensus for the best coating, plating, or finish"
the question would depend on what you want that finish to do...
each by them selves,
hardest = BN
slickest = NiB
corrosion resistant = BN
absolut corrosion resistant = BN base, with NiB on top... but dont think anyone makes that
but no matter what any of then say, its not a great idea to run dry.... and if you run wet, while "on paper" some are slicker then others, you not going to notice any working difference in chrome/BN/NiB..
and aint nothing wrong with old chrome..
with AIM selling all 3 for about the same price as a regular, i would get any of the 3 over a stock, if only for the easier clean up...
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