View Full Version : Anyone having issues w/ Apex kits in new M&P's?
I've installed several of the Apex kits and the last 2 have had less than desireable results.
The last one was a Dec manufacture M&P FS 9mm, started off with a OK 7 lbs pull with a clean break. After the kit (no springs) the pull came down to 4.75 lbs but had a horrible stacking issue. The trigger would go through 3 stages before breaking and would break as close the over travel stop as possible. I ended up go back to stock and just polishing everything and am at about a 6 lbs pull, but no stacking and cleaner than with the APEX.
I had a similar issue with a Shield, quite a bit of stacking and a break in the low 4's.
Luckily I got the kits from Brownell's so I returned them, but on these particular guns the outcome was not desireable. Not sure if these new guns have a revision that is affecting the Apex kits or if it was just these 2 samples.
My best triggers have been Apex kits, one in a FS .45 and the other a FS 9mm. I have 2 custom triggers from Burwell and AI also.
mike benedict
03-31-13, 10:18
I have done over 100 Apex triggers and I have never seen the problems you have spoken of.
You should have just called out to Apex and asked them for a bit of help.
Mike
morbidbattlecry
03-31-13, 16:51
I installed a AEK trigger,hard sear and spring kit on my 2013 production gun and have had no problems at all. Call up Apex they are very nice people.
My Apex duty/carry kits have worked out much better compared to factory. Though as I stated, I've used the kits. I didnt not leave the factory springs but switched to what the Apex kit came with.
So one each fullsize and compact and two shields so far. All in 9mm.
I've put in 6 or 7 DCAEK's and, if anything, the APEX kits smooth out the trigger in every case.
I've used the product successfully several times and am very familiar with the operation of the kit and the firearm.
The issue I am having is slack out the trigger till sear/firing pin wall. The loop on the trigger bar should be articulating the sear and releasing the firing pin. What I am seeing is once you start pulling the trigger after the wall the trigger will move 2 to 3 stages before the sear releases the firing pin. It's probably 1 to 2 mm, but very noticeable. My first inclination is to add a few thousands to the trigger bar loop to get sear engagement sooner. I was going back and forth with the Apex sear and stock and got the stock sear to an acceptable level so I just went back to stock.
The Apex trigger spring is there to make the trigger pull heavier on the duty kit. The sear spring makes little difference in my experience. The USB spring is going to affect the pull before sear engagement, I do use that spring since it does reduce the force necessary on the firing pin block.
I've sent 2 emails and PM'd Apex and did not get a response. Not trying to slag on Apex, I own a ton of their products and Randy has always been a great help and spokesman.
My message was an inquiry to see if anyone is having issues with new production M&P's. My last 2, a Shield and a FS 9 showed the same problem. Both were Dec and after production.
G34Shooter
04-01-13, 11:22
I've used the product successfully several times and am very familiar with the operation of the kit and the firearm.
The issue I am having is slack out the trigger till sear/firing pin wall. The loop on the trigger bar should be articulating the sear and releasing the firing pin. What I am seeing is once you start pulling the trigger after the wall the trigger will move 2 to 3 stages before the sear releases the firing pin. It's probably 1 to 2 mm, but very noticeable. My first inclination is to add a few thousands to the trigger bar loop to get sear engagement sooner. I was going back and forth with the Apex sear and stock and got the stock sear to an acceptable level so I just went back to stock.
The Apex trigger spring is there to make the trigger pull heavier on the duty kit. The sear spring makes little difference in my experience. The USB spring is going to affect the pull before sear engagement, I do use that spring since it does reduce the force necessary on the firing pin block.
I've sent 2 emails and PM'd Apex and did not get a response. Not trying to slag on Apex, I own a ton of their products and Randy has always been a great help and spokesman.
My message was an inquiry to see if anyone is having issues with new production M&P's. My last 2, a Shield and a FS 9 showed the same problem. Both were Dec and after production.
Why don't you pick up a phone?
Thanks for the suggestion, however I have exchanged emails with Scott and we are on our way to a solution.
Why don't you pick up a phone?
I have done over 100 Apex triggers and I have never seen the problems you have spoken of.
You should have just called out to Apex and asked them for a bit of help.
Mike
Agree.
C4
I've used the product successfully several times and am very familiar with the operation of the kit and the firearm.
The issue I am having is slack out the trigger till sear/firing pin wall. The loop on the trigger bar should be articulating the sear and releasing the firing pin. What I am seeing is once you start pulling the trigger after the wall the trigger will move 2 to 3 stages before the sear releases the firing pin. It's probably 1 to 2 mm, but very noticeable. My first inclination is to add a few thousands to the trigger bar loop to get sear engagement sooner. I was going back and forth with the Apex sear and stock and got the stock sear to an acceptable level so I just went back to stock.
The Apex trigger spring is there to make the trigger pull heavier on the duty kit. The sear spring makes little difference in my experience. The USB spring is going to affect the pull before sear engagement, I do use that spring since it does reduce the force necessary on the firing pin block.
I've sent 2 emails and PM'd Apex and did not get a response. Not trying to slag on Apex, I own a ton of their products and Randy has always been a great help and spokesman.
My message was an inquiry to see if anyone is having issues with new production M&P's. My last 2, a Shield and a FS 9 showed the same problem. Both were Dec and after production.
Most likely, you need to do the following:
1. Polish the trigger bar (where it engages to the striker block).
2. Open the trigger bar loop so that it engages the sear sooner.
3. Remove the striker block and make sure there are NO burrs in the slide (where the striker block rides up and down).
4. Check to make sure that the trigger safety isn't overly long and is hitting the frame (over flashing of the plastic piece).
C4
Trigger bar has been polished on striker block engagement surface.
I have not opened the trigger bar loop, however this is my #1 suspicion. I wanted to get a new set of feeler gages so I knew my starting point and exactly how much I was moving it. Also the trigger is breaking almost right against the over travel stop which Scott said could be a contributing factor causing some flex and the loop adjustment would help address.
As part of my process I always polish the striker block top, sides, and bottom. I also inspect the hole in the slide for burrs and once the block is installed I function test it for smooth operation. No problems there.
Have not looked as the trigger safety, but that is a good idea. I'm getting some flex in the trigger and what I felt was the trigger bar, before the striker is released.
Another issue Scott and I discussed and why I made this inquiry was if S&W had any new revisions that may be contributing to the issue. Scott threw out the possibility that the striker may have been lengthened causing more drag on the sear. I will put a caliper on this new gun's striker and compare to my old M&P's.
I've left the "call them" comments alone for the most part, but the bottom line is the hours just aren't convenient for me 9-4:30 (-1 hour lunch). I've had good results in the past with email or PM's. I know they are busy group.
I knew that the M4C.net group was a savvy M&P group so I threw it out there to see if any others had the issue.
Thanks to those who contributed.
Most likely, you need to do the following:
1. Polish the trigger bar (where it engages to the striker block).
2. Open the trigger bar loop so that it engages the sear sooner.
3. Remove the striker block and make sure there are NO burrs in the slide (where the striker block rides up and down).
4. Check to make sure that the trigger safety isn't overly long and is hitting the frame (over flashing of the plastic piece).
C4
I had a problem installing DCAEK and AEK, on an early 2012 model.
I installed AEK following apex's video on youtube, however when i pressed down on rear of slide, the striker woudln't release.
Ended up having to open trigger bar loop to ~.037"
I even bought a non-S stamped trigger bar from SpeedShooterSpec. but the dimensions/geometry were the same as my original S stamped one. and didn't change anything.
however... it shoots fine. no problems. just a lot more overtravel than in Randy's gun in his install video. and differ's from others who always tout about how their M&P's with apex kits now have zero overtravel. if you care about that sort of thing.
would break as close the over travel stop as possible. .
Recently installed a DCAEK in my 9c and had the same problem. Sometimes, the trigger wouldn't break at all. This is the fourth Apex kit I've installed, but the first time this issue arose. After opening up the sear loop slightly, it functions perfectly.
Thought I would update this. I pulled the sear housing block from this new gun with a test fire date of 1/18/13. Big differences in the sear blocks. Some obvious differences, the ejector is held in place by the sear pin on the new block. There is no hole for the ILS on the new block so installing the Apex RAM is not possible. The rails that silde into the frame are different. Notice the shape of the lobes on the sear are totally different (these are factory sears). The old sear block will not fit in the new gun.
I did open the trigger bar loop .006 ( from the factory was .011) and it helped a bit, but did not make a drastic difference in the break or stacking issue.
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/tul9033/IMG_07222_zps7b229190.jpg http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i204/tul9033/IMG_07282_zps104ea125.jpg
The new M&P's have a universal frame and sear block. Non safety models have the sear block as you show it with a cutout for the thumb safety spring and detent which make a RAM impossible to install. The frames also have safety cutouts and plugs. I purchased a couple RAM's for my late 2012 M&P's before I noticed this issue. I also tried to revert to the older sear block and new frame appears to have inadequate support for the ejector in the old sear blocks.
That's funny, I just installed 2 kits in VTAC m&ps (9/.40). The hard sears have either a casting or machining mark RIGHT ON THE SEAR FACE! WTF?! HORRIBLE sear engagement. I ended up using a fine stone and surfacing the sear face myself, now it's a very nice trigger pull. I even sent APEX a picture Ann's a video of it. I was pretty disappointed to be honest....
arcticlightfighter
04-13-13, 08:26
Ive installed only around 10-15 APEX DCAEK kits in mine and others M&P's.
The only issue Ive had so far is a single instance of an APEX small sear plunger spring not able to fit over the tail of the small sear plunger. A quick email conversation with APEX CS had a replacement to me in a couple of days.
All of the parts with this single exception have been trouble free.
Id contact them if there are any issues with their kits.
I've read nothing but good about APEX and everyone defends them. The fact remains the 2 sears I have are horrid feel. The kits are sold as "drop in" sears. It's no biggie but damn, a ledge right in the sear face? Come on. I was nice and respectful but I highly doubt APEX will respond to my email....
You should have just called out to Apex and asked them for a bit of help.
Comeon, its much easier to suffer in silence and post on the Internet... ;)
What "help"? What for them to send new sears that may or may not have the same issue? It was an easy fix but should not have to been fixed...
Comeon, its much easier to suffer in silence and post on the Internet... ;)
Yes, picking up the phone would have been waaaay too easy. ;).
Good to see you, Jinx. ;)
Here's one of the hard sears with the ledge on the sear face. This was one pass with a fine stone, you can clearly see where the firing pin face is catching....
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e187/Hypercomp01/0424466D-1972-4674-910D-007E294B3143-2732-00000398FC3136BF_zpse8785e26.jpg
Greetings all,
I apologize for coming in late on this discussion. First and foremost, if anyone is having issues with our parts, please do not hesitate to contact us immediately. If there is a problem , then the only way we can rectify the situation is by being made aware of the issue.
For those who have noticed machine marks that affect the quality of your trigger pull, please call or email us. We stand behind our products and will issue an RMA for the part and send out a replacement immediately.
Sometimes cutters dull or chip while machining the sears which can greatly affect the performance. While we have attempted to catch these before they get heat treated, apparently some have slipped through. We now have QC checks in place to eliminate tooling wear related defects. We are also researching better manufacturing processes that will yield a finer surface finish without raising the price per part.
From what I have seen, the factory has made several dimensional changes that can affect how our components interact. For instance, the trigger loop angle and position relative to the sear have changed significantly. I believe the changes to the trigger bar is what has caused the greatest deal of frustration for us. The change in slope greatly affects pull weight along with the amount of over travel. This is why some people are having to open the loop spacing in order to get the desired results with our kits. We are working on identifying exactly when these design changes went into effect, as well as adjusting our sear cam geometry to compensate for the changes.
-Randy
That's funny, I just installed 2 kits in VTAC m&ps (9/.40). The hard sears have either a casting or machining mark RIGHT ON THE SEAR FACE! WTF?! HORRIBLE sear engagement. I ended up using a fine stone and surfacing the sear face myself, now it's a very nice trigger pull. I even sent APEX a picture Ann's a video of it. I was pretty disappointed to be honest....
Hi 99HMC,
I cannot enlarge your pic enough to be sure, but it looks like there is a tooling mark that shouldn't be there. Vertical striations are to be expected since the cutter is performing side cutting when it forms the contact face of the sear, and they do not affect pull quality since they are running in the same direction as the sear pivot. Yours seems to show a distinct horizontal line that shouldn't be there.
I will check in with the Scott in the morning and see if we can find other sears here with the same artifact.
-Randy
Thanks for the reply! Yes, there's a tool marks horizontaly across the sear face. This is the video I emailed you guys showing how bad the sear hung up: http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e187/Hypercomp01/28932131-9CF7-49E3-9EC9-28C0F9111050-4815-00000617E751D42B_zpsff936ff2.mp4
Both the sears had the same mark that I had to fix. After I stoned the face the pul was much better than factory....
G34Shooter
04-17-13, 13:22
Thanks for the reply! Yes, there's a tool marks horizontaly across the sear face. This is the video I emailed you guys showing how bad the sear hung up: http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e187/Hypercomp01/28932131-9CF7-49E3-9EC9-28C0F9111050-4815-00000617E751D42B_zpsff936ff2.mp4
Both the sears had the same mark that I had to fix. After I stoned the face the pul was much better than factory....
What's weird is that I've handled a few 2012 and up made M&P's that did that out of the box and others that were great OOTB. IMO it seems S&W's QC is still all over the place still.
Issue is I bought an AFTERMARKET kit specifically designed to address that issue. I never saw it advertised as needed final finishing, which is what both my kits required. I still haven't received a responce (other than the post here) to my email to APEX. I think from now on I'll just advise future customers that APEX kits may require extra gun smithing charges for fitting....
G34Shooter
04-17-13, 15:35
Issue is I bought an AFTERMARKET kit specifically designed to address that issue. I never saw it advertised as needed final finishing, which is what both my kits required. I still haven't received a responce (other than the post here) to my email to APEX. I think from now on I'll just advise future customers that APEX kits may require extra gun smithing charges for fitting....
I'm not sure what you're riled up about, I was just posting some FYI. I'm not 100% sure but IMO it was related to the joint of the "trigger safety" but I didn't investigate it as it wasn't my concern.
I'm not riled up or pissed off, I've been polite and reasonable the whole time. My issue is that the aftermarket parts I used to CORRECT and help the trigger pull ended up making it worse to the point I had to fix it. So as a business owner myself I would want to know if and when my product had a flaw. APEX can care or not, I was just letting them know....
G34Shooter
04-17-13, 16:51
I'm not riled up or pissed off, I've been polite and reasonable the whole time. My issue is that the aftermarket parts I used to CORRECT and help the trigger pull ended up making it worse to the point I had to fix it. So as a business owner myself I would want to know if and when my product had a flaw. APEX can care or not, I was just letting them know....
I think Randy's posts above show that they care and he offered an RMA to fix them immediately. I'm not sure why you even bothered posting that.
Because I did address the issue and my specific problem went unheard. Why spend time/money to send my sears back and wait for new ones when I fixed the issue? I never got pissy, in fact I'll still push APEX kits to my customers just now I have to go more finish work. Again, I never got riled up or mad. I just responded to this thread and as far as I know the issue has not been resolved or at least admitted by APEX. If I had these sear issues, others did to. Seems like a good company, I'm sure if I spent more time squeaking I may have got some answers. Point being I just fixed it myself but I didn't think I should have. I thought it was a "drop in" sear. I guess not, no harm or foul.
I got an email from APEX asking for more info/specifics. They said they would take care of the issues I had. I'm happy, though I was never mad. Regardless I'm happy APEX does care. So I'll have our demo VTAC set up with ALL the APEX goodies....
My trigger is showing the exact same behavior seen in the video.
I was pretty surprised to see the changes S&W is making to the stock sears, pretty drastic. The lobe looks more like an Apex sear than the old stock does. Too bad it's not so great out of the box. I am noticing the trigger bar loop is shaped differently than early 2012+ loops. The new one is slightly more oval shaped than tear drop shape of the old. Having these changes in the pipeline will make for some difficulties with drop in aftermarket parts.
Apex did send me a new sear unfortunately it was a .45 sear and I need a 9mm. I've sent it back and hopefully they get me a 9mm soon.
I'm happy to see open discussion.
Thanks for the reply! Yes, there's a tool marks horizontaly across the sear face. This is the video I emailed you guys showing how bad the sear hung up: http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e187/Hypercomp01/28932131-9CF7-49E3-9EC9-28C0F9111050-4815-00000617E751D42B_zpsff936ff2.mp4
Both the sears had the same mark that I had to fix. After I stoned the face the pul was much better than factory....
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