View Full Version : Is nitrocarburizing the wave of the future?
Supposedly more durable than chrome lining, but also provides an exterior protection. QPQ, Nitride, Tennifer, Melonite, et al....????????
saddlerocker
03-30-13, 21:55
If it does prove to be more durable than chrome, and not negatively effect accuracy like chrome lining can, then yes it should become the standard.......
BUT
Government profiles, 203 cuts, 1:7 Twists, and other things just dont go away because its the Mil Spec.
So no I personally dont think it will become mainstream.
There's a patent held by Noveske related to it...
http://www.google.com/patents/US8333029
trackmagic
03-31-13, 00:50
I thought about getting a melonite barrel once because from what I researched the coeficient of friction of melonite is lower than chrome. The result was that the barrel stayed cooler.
I wonder how nitro-carbinate compares in that category.
I would love to see data on barrel temps vs. different coatings to see if that is BS or not. I was not able to find anything real concrete so I did not buy the barrel.
If it scores a Mil contract then I would think so.
Many things that are adopted by the mil are made standard or get one hell of a promotion.
Beretta is still raking in the cash on commercial M9s and 92s. I love them:D
There's a patent held by Noveske related to it...
http://www.google.com/patents/US8333029
If they, Noveske, and the other top tier mfgs start putting out nitro carbed cmv barrels, it will catch on. It wont make it mainstream overnight, if at all, but it will certainy get them out there.
polymorpheous
03-31-13, 06:51
I was mulling over sending a stainless precision barrel to get the treatment.
I've read only positives about it.
I have, however, read conflicting reports about removing the barrel extension prior to the treatment.
ForTehNguyen
03-31-13, 08:04
Sig and H&K have already been doing it
Sparky5019
03-31-13, 08:26
And a "2nd rate" company like CMMG has been doing it for about 5 years now...hmmm.
I have to say I was very pleased with its performance!
Sparky
polymorpheous
03-31-13, 08:48
And a "2nd rate" company like CMMG has been doing it for about 5 years now...hmmm.
I have to say I was very pleased with its performance!
Sparky
So they melonite some barrels.
So does DSA.
Both are hobby rifles.
Wasn't it CMMG that put out a bunch of crap barrels?
But I digress.
Less trolling and more on topic discussion please.
I have, however, read conflicting reports about removing the barrel extension prior to the treatment.
I've heard the same thing. Also, if it's been fired much (and I don't know the "cutoff") it won't take to the bore; an unfired barrel is optimal from what I've read.
I thought about getting a melonite barrel once because from what I researched the coeficient of friction of melonite is lower than chrome. The result was that the barrel stayed cooler.
I wonder how nitro-carbinate compares in that category.
I would love to see data on barrel temps vs. different coatings to see if that is BS or not. I was not able to find anything real concrete so I did not buy the barrel.
I think Meloniting is a form of nitrocarburizing, same with Tennifer. Both are brand names like Kleenex is to tissue.
polymorpheous
03-31-13, 08:56
I've heard the same thing. Also, if it's been fired much (and I don't know the "cutoff") it won't take to the bore; an unfired barrel is optimal from what I've read.
Robb Jensen was talking about putting a couple hundred rounds through one.
Cleaning all the fouling out.
And sending it out for the treatment.
Something about peak accuracy after that many rounds.
polymorpheous
03-31-13, 08:57
I think Meloniting is a form of nitrocarburizing, same with Tennifer. Both are brand names like Kleenex is to tissue.
Yup.:)
If it scores a Mil contract then I would think so.
The military currently uses two finishes on an M4 for the barrel: parkerizing and chrome lining. Nitrocarburizing could narrow it down to one process which provides equal durability inside and out. Hell, it could be used for the other steel parts too. Not sure if it's compatible with aluminum though.
Robb Jensen was talking about putting a couple hundred rounds through one.
Cleaning all the fouling out.
And sending it out for the treatment.
Something about peak accuracy after that many rounds.
What process was he using to "strip", if you will, the bore of all firing residue? I think it would involve more than just Hoppes and a bore brush to get it to that level.
There is a guy on HKPro who did it to his MR556 barrel. I can't remember exactly what he did to get all of the fouling from the lands and grooves. I'll have to see if I can find his thread.
polymorpheous
03-31-13, 09:07
What process was he using to "strip", if you will, the bore of all firing residue? I think it would involve more than just Hoppes and a bore brush to get it to that level.
There is a guy on HKPro who did it to his MR556 barrel. I can't remember exactly what he did to get all of the fouling from the lands and grooves. I'll have to see if I can find his thread.
He'll if I know.
I couldn't get a response from the guy.
I'd appreciate any info you can find though.
Sparky5019
03-31-13, 09:12
So they melonite some barrels.
So does DSA.
Both are hobby rifles.
Wasn't it CMMG that put out a bunch of crap barrels?
But I digress.
Less trolling and more on topic discussion please.
Agreed. I was being tongue in cheek. I agree anyone can put out a bad batch.
I would say that this treatment (by whichever brand name one chooses), probably withstands bimetallic jackets used with steel cased ammo better than chrome lining.
Sparky
There's a patent held by Noveske related to it...
http://www.google.com/patents/US8333029
It appears that the patent is for a combination of using nitrocarburizing with H13 steel, which is made to resist thermal fatigue.
polymorpheous
03-31-13, 09:23
Agreed. I was being tongue in cheek. I agree anyone can put out a bad batch.
I would say that this treatment (by whichever brand name one chooses), probably withstands bimetallic jackets used with steel cased ammo better than chrome lining.
Sparky
Heat kills barrels.
The bimetal jacket likely created more friction in that Lucky Gunner torture test.
If it can be quantified that the melonite bores create less friction than their chrome lined counterpart, I'd be inclined to agree with you.
Personally I hate shiny guns, so the treatment appeals to me because my barrel is in the white.
The wear resistance is a big bonus. (How many rounds did that Glock have through it in Pannone's torture test?)
BTW, there needs to be a tongue in cheek smiley.
;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferritic_nitrocarburizing
Nitrocarburizing seems to be superior to chrome in every respect.
MilSpec is only a minimum standard - it is not the last word in quality.
Nitrocarburizing seems to be superior to chrome in every respect.
Based on what?
MilSpec is only a minimum standard - it is not the last word in quality.
More regurgitated misinformation...
The military specification can only be met or missed. If the specification is not met it's out of spec in either direction.
More regurgitated misinformation...
The military specification can only be met or missed. If the specification is not met it's out of spec in either direction.
Yeah, thanks, among my other talents I am a COR. I have managed more than a few govt contracts. I can assure you that a manufacturer can (and in many cases do) make something that exceeds the minimum acceptable standard ( "MILSPEC" ). MILSPEC is what the company needs to make in order to get paid. If they happen to make it stronger, lighter, longer lasting, better, then it is a win-win. Frequently companies who out perform their contract will get additional consideration when it comes time to renew the contract.
Now, what were we talking about again? Oh yeah, nitrocarburizing!
Sparky5019
03-31-13, 11:14
Heat kills barrels.
The bimetal jacket likely created more friction in that Lucky Gunner torture test.
If it can be quantified that the melonite bores create less friction than their chrome lined counterpart, I'd be inclined to agree with you.
Personally I hate shiny guns, so the treatment appeals to me because my barrel is in the white.
The wear resistance is a big bonus. (How many rounds did that Glock have through it in Pannone's torture test?)
BTW, there needs to be a tongue in cheek smiley.
;)
My bad; I was in a hurry! I totally agree with the heat...even the best barrels when shot past overheat will be rendered dead I short order. I was strictly speaking of the coating.
When they coat them now do they do the whole barrel or just the bore?
Sparky
I had my MR QPQ nitrided.
I fired 60 ish rounds through the barrel to ensure proper function of the system and then used KG-12 copper solvent to clean the bore followed by handlapping the bore.
All steel parts with the exception of the smaller pins were sent to H&M Metal processing and within three weeks I had all of the parts back. After getting it back, I also Parkerized over the nitriding.
I unfortunatly havn't had the time to run as many rounds through it as I want, but I have had excellent results (sub 1/2 MOA groupings using an Aimpoint PRO and a larue po-boy magnifier mounted in an aimpoint magnifier mount). The ONLY issue i've run into is that the firing pin tip broke off.
Nitriding penetrates fairly deep and if a part is small enough, it will fully penetrate and over harden that piece. If that piece is a high impact piece and placed under stress, it will break.
A simple replacement with another untreated firing pin fixed the issue and the gun is in top form. It's got close to 2k rounds down the pipe (like I said, not nearly as much as i'd like) but work has prevented me from shooting for awhile, and other then the firing pin issue, there hasn't been a single other problem.
polymorpheous
03-31-13, 11:25
My bad; I was in a hurry! I totally agree with the heat...even the best barrels when shot past overheat will be rendered dead I short order. I was strictly speaking of the coating.
When they coat them now do they do the whole barrel or just the bore?
Sparky
When I queried WMDguns they were doing the barrels inside and out.
When I queried WMDguns they were doing the barrels inside and out.
Yeah, WMD does the whole barrel in a salt bath. Problem is, IMO, the barrel extension is done as well, fully attached. I almost sent in a barrel for them to do, but I've read too many stories of the extension coming loose after that treatment, so I decided against it. Just Cerakoted the outside and will let the chrome do its job.
A couple of things RE: Nitriding....
Nitriding pretty much locks a piece into stone. If the quality was crap before nitriding, then it will be forever crap afterwards with little or no hope of being able to be fixed.
Secondly, do NOT nitride over chrome. The process will corrode the chrome and ruin the barrel. SOmeone already tried this and found out the hard way.
Lastly, When I got my HK MR parts back, I soaked them in windex for awhile and used Kroil to fully penetrate into the nooks and crannies to get out as much of the salt remnants as possible. Windex seeps in and dissolves the corrosive salts and then Kroil penetrates and displaces the now liquid nitriding salts from the joints, nooks, and crannies of the parts, thereby ensuring that the salts will not continue to be exposed to moisture and continue corroding and destroy the parts.
Singlestack Wonder
03-31-13, 12:07
While very simlar in the end result, the Tennifer and Melonite processes are a little different in regards to certain chemicals used. In the Tennifer process, certain compunds are used that are not legal to use in the U.S.
When I queried WMDguns they were doing the barrels inside and out.
Nitriding is all or nothing process. How would it be possible to only nitride the exterior of the barrel?
polymorpheous
03-31-13, 12:34
Nitriding is all or nothing process. How would it be possible to only nitride the exterior of the barrel?
I don't know.
I didn't ask the question.
polymorpheous
03-31-13, 12:38
Yeah, WMD does the whole barrel in a salt bath. Problem is, IMO, the barrel extension is done as well, fully attached. I almost sent in a barrel for them to do, but I've read too many stories of the extension coming loose after that treatment, so I decided against it. Just Cerakoted the outside and will let the chrome do its job.
Yeah I asked them if the removed the extension after Grant informed me about the problem.
WMD said they did not, and it isn't nessecary.
Does anyone have a list of the companies that actually make nitrided AR barrels?
I just got a Green Mountain 11.5" barrel and found out the chamber and bore are not chrome lined, maybe they nitride some of their barrels now?
Does anyone have a list of the companies that actually make nitrided AR barrels?
I just got a Green Mountain 11.5" barrel and found out the chamber and bore are not chrome lined, maybe they nitride some of their barrels now?
Ballistic Advantage is one company I know of that makes nitrided barrels. I just got one of them in 5.45x39 (14.5" midlength pencil barrel).
Robb Jensen was talking about putting a couple hundred rounds through one.
Cleaning all the fouling out.
And sending it out for the treatment.
Something about peak accuracy after that many rounds.
Barrels (commonly) have burrs in them. So you want shoot them or Polish the inside and then melonite. If you melonite over a burr, you will never get it out and the gun will shoot for crap.
C4
polymorpheous
03-31-13, 14:24
Barrels (commonly) have burrs in them. So you want shoot them or Polish the inside and then melonite. If you melonite over a burr, you will never get it out and the gun will shoot for crap.
C4
That's what I figured.
I was looking to do a certain 410 stainless, 1/8 twist, button rifled barrel.
But I don't want to remove the extension since I haven't got the experience nor the tooling.
Barrels (commonly) have burrs in them. So you want shoot them or Polish the inside and then melonite. If you melonite over a burr, you will never get it out and the gun will shoot for crap.
C4
Or get a hand lapped barrel.
It certainly seems to have its advantages.
Or get a hand lapped barrel.
That's what I'd do.
mkmckinley
03-31-13, 22:33
Or get a hand lapped barrel.
The burr is often produce when the barrel is chambered after hand lapping.
Being the new guy here, and having experienced this response myself, this time I get the opportunity to say, "Use the search button." ;)
Seriously though... a plethora of information already exists on the topic on this forum alone.
I will say that both hard chrome lining and nitriding (in some form or another) have been used on high stress components for a long time - racing pistons as one example of something other than a barrel. Two main differences I have gathered from my research are: 1) Hard chrome is applied on top of a metal, while nitriding is a process that hardens the outer layer of the metal (similar to anodizing aluminum). 2) Nitriding is very hard and maintains a very smooth surface over time. Hard chrome is very hard and develops microscopic cracks over time. This is less desirable in some applications but beneficial in others, as the cracks allow space for oil to collect to maintain lubrication over longer periods of time. I might use nitriding over hard chrome on applications that do not require or allow liquid lubrication, but I would give the nod to hard chrome for things like the inside of a bolt carrier, where oil is needed for lubrication and is not continuously pumped as it is inside an engine.
Heat kills barrels.
Agreed. Well, throat erosion kills barrels, and heat is the greatest contributor to throat erosion. This is why the jury is still out for me on whether I'm going with a Noveske chrome lined barrel on my current build, or having a Noveske stainless steel barrel nitrided. I have not been able to find any concrete evidence or reputable source that says nitriding has a higher heat resistance than hard chrome, or vise versa. :shout: (meaning, which one is most resistant to wear at the extreme temperatures present in the throat of the barrel under rapid fire)
Nitriding penetrates fairly deep and if a part is small enough, it will fully penetrate and over harden that piece. If that piece is a high impact piece and placed under stress, it will break.
You should probably quantify that for people... I've read that while nitriding penetrates deeper than the thickness of a traditional hard chrome bore lining, it is by no means "deep." I agree with you that it is probably not wise to nitride parts that see high impact stress (I personally would not nitride any part of a BCG).
Does anyone have a list of the companies that actually make nitrided AR barrels?
Smith & Wesson
The burr is often produce when the barrel is chambered after hand lapping.
Hand lap it after it is chambered?
What process was he using to "strip", if you will, the bore of all firing residue? I think it would involve more than just Hoppes and a bore brush to get it to that level.
There is a guy on HKPro who did it to his MR556 barrel. I can't remember exactly what he did to get all of the fouling from the lands and grooves. I'll have to see if I can find his thread.
Sweets for the copper...
Singlestack Wonder
04-01-13, 08:22
Nitriding is all or nothing process. How would it be possible to only nitride the exterior of the barrel?
To do that would require vapor a vapor deposition process such as that used with titanium nitride finishes (the gold finish sometimes used on tooling). But as such, this is material added to the surface finish versus Meloniting that pulls carbon towards the surface for increasing hardness and durabiluty without increasing overall dimensions.
Robb Jensen
04-23-13, 06:09
What process was he using to "strip", if you will, the bore of all firing residue? I think it would involve more than just Hoppes and a bore brush to get it to that level.
There is a guy on HKPro who did it to his MR556 barrel. I can't remember exactly what he did to get all of the fouling from the lands and grooves. I'll have to see if I can find his thread.
I cleaned it for a week starting with JP Bore Paste and then used lots of WipeOut-PatchOut until I could no longer get any copper out. When I got it back from being melonited I had to again hit it with JB. There was this weird brown residue in the bore. After cleaning that out it seemed to take about 200-250 rounds before it really shot super accurate. I shot a .61" MOA 5-shot group at 100yds with PMC Bronze 55gr FMJ about a month ago, barrel now has in excess of 3.5K rounds through it.
polymorpheous
04-23-13, 07:36
I cleaned it for a week starting with JP Bore Paste and then used lots of WipeOut-PatchOut until I could no longer get any copper out. When I got it back from being melonited I had to again hit it with JB. There was this weird brown residue in the bore. After cleaning that out it seemed to take about 200-250 rounds before it really shot super accurate. I shot a .61" MOA 5-shot group at 100yds with PMC Bronze 55gr FMJ about a month ago, barrel now has in excess of 3.5K rounds through it.
Did you send the barrel out with or without the barrel extension attached?
Sweets for the copper...
Sweets sucks for copper. I used to use it and though I was removing copper! :lol:
Then I got some BoreTech Cu2... and was like. :eek: I ran some through what I thought was my clean .308 bolt gun barrel and it was puking green patches.
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