View Full Version : Pay attention to Re-Sale Value!
I watch as people buy uncommon, unknown and questionable AR's these days. They look at the SPEC sheet and see some buzz words and think that it is GTG. This may be true, but realize that AR manufacturers are ALSO aware that you are looking for these same words. ;)
The biggest thing that people seem to overlook when buying an AR is RE-SALE VALUE! The top name brands will sell the best. If you are trying to sell to the "well informed" crowd, you will need to have a brand name like BCM, Colt, DD, Noveske, KAC, LMT, etc. If you are trying to sell to the "I see this company in every magazine I read" crowd, you will need to own a BM, RRA, DPMS, Armalite and S&W.
As you go down more into the weeds with such brands as Del-Ton, ST, Core15, etc, etc the number of people that have heard of these brands diminishes and it will be harder for you to get your money out of your gun, upper or part.
I know that we don't like to sell guns, but stuff happens and we all need money from time to time or want to "trade up." The better the name (or at least the more recognizable name) the easier it is to sell and get most (if not all) of your money back.
Just some food for thought for new AR buyers....
C4
I wish everyone that has DPMS oracles on armslist for $2000 could read this. It's definitely true, though.
I personally view making a rifle purchase with its intended use in mind. Resale is almost never a concern. I'll stick to stocks, bonds, and precious medals when I want to worry about how much I'll be able to sell something for. Rifles are for shooting, investments are for speculating.
I have re-sold a few Colts, a Noveske, and a couple of BCMs over the years. I never lost a penny.
I personally view making a rifle purchase with its intended use in mind. Resale is almost never a concern. I'll stick to stocks, bonds, and precious medals when I want to worry about how much I'll be able to sell something for. Rifles are for shooting, investments are for speculating.
This is a perfect world thought process and not everyone lives in this same world. What if the economy crashes and the US dollar is worthless. You need to trade your AR for food, shelter, etc and certain brands are more sought after than others.
Along that theme, the argument could be made that putting money into QUALITY guns, ammo, mags, etc is a BETTER investment than most everything else these day. ;)
C4
Grant I've been exactly doing that, getting rid of lesser quality and buying up as opportunities exist.
If the world has gone to shit you would be better off keeping your rifles. All of them simply for spares...
A majority of the people who would be willing to trade for a rifle will have no clue what the differences between a Noveske and a Core15 are. At that point you need as much tacticool stuff as possible. The average consumer loves that stuff. :D
This is a perfect world thought process and not everyone lives in this same world. What if the economy crashes and the US dollar is worthless. You need to trade your AR for food, shelter, etc and certain brands are more sought after than others?
Along that theme, the argument could be made that putting money into QUALITY guns, ammo, mags, etc is a BETTER investment than most everything else these day. ;)
C4
If that happens ammo, toilet paper, soap, alcohol, medical/first aid supplies, skills, labour, precious metals, food, sweets, fuel, etc, would be higher on my list of barter items than rifles.
If the world has gone to shit you would be better off keeping your rifles. All of them simply for spares...
Your rifle cannot provide you shelter and you cannot eat it. If it is your ONLY one, then yes, keeping it is best, but a wise man always has spares (for trading purposes and this is where my point comes).
A majority of the people who would be willing to trade for a rifle will have no clue what the differences between a Noveske and a Core15 are. At that point you need as much tacticool stuff as possible. The average consumer loves that stuff. :D
This is not true. Because of the internet, the consumer is 100 times more knowledgeable than they were just 20 years ago.
C4
Grant I've been exactly doing that, getting rid of lesser quality and buying up as opportunities exist.
Smart man!
C4
This is not true. Because of the internet, the consumer is 100 times more knowledgeable than they were just 20 years ago.
That explains why Bushmaster sells so many AR style rifles.
If that happens ammo, toilet paper, soap, alcohol, medical/first aid supplies, skills, labour, precious metals, food, sweets, fuel, etc, would be higher on my list of barter items than rifles.
Depends. Everyones situation is DIFFERENT. Lots of people own ZERO weapons. These people often thought that the "Govt" would protect them. When the Govt no longer exists, they will realize that they have NO WAY of protecting themselves.
I know it is hard for people to do this, but think OUTSIDE of your own situation and realize that not everyone is like you!
C4
That explains why Bushmaster sells so many AR style rifles.
Before the errornet, BM sold tons more rifles. Why? They spent the money on print ads (which were king in their day). They also had excellent distribution channels and were able to get their guns into every gun store in the country.
C4
If that happens ammo, toilet paper, soap, alcohol, medical/first aid supplies, skills, labour, precious metals, food, sweets, fuel, etc, would be higher on my list of barter items than rifles.
I would personally take ammo off that list. If it is truly that bad that we have gone to a barter system, then there's no way in hell that I would give someone the ammo or guns that could possibly be used to kill myself or family to take the rest of what I have.
And I do agree with Grant that the better quality/better known rifles have a higher re-sale value, but I disagree that I would ever trade them in a situation where the world is falling apart ;)
Aside from that, the limited weaponry that I do have each serve a purpose in my perceived needs "list" and parting with them are pretty much out of the question...same for ammo. Unfortunately, I'm not at a point in my life where I have the income available for spares.
Depends. Everyones situation is DIFFERENT. Lots of people own ZERO weapons. These people often thought that the "Govt" would protect them.
And that's my point. The same people who didn't prepare for security/defense are the same ones who didn't stock up on food, water, and other necessities. What do you think their next course of action will be when they now have a weapon and ammo, but still no food/water?
When the Govt no longer exists
When? :confused: :p
I know it is hard for people to do this, but think OUTSIDE of your own situation and realize that not everyone is like you!
And the fact that I know everyone is not like me is exactly why I won't be trading weapons and ammo ;)
I would personally take ammo off that list. If it is truly that bad that we have gone to a barter system, then there's no way in hell that I would give someone the ammo or guns that could possibly be used to kill myself or family to take the rest of what I have.
And I do agree with Grant that the better quality/better known rifles have a higher re-sale value, but I disagree that I would ever trade them in a situation where the world is falling apart ;)
Aside from that, the limited weaponry that I do have each serve a purpose in my perceived needs "list" and parting with them are pretty much out of the question...same for ammo. Unfortunately, I'm not at a point in my life where I have the income available for spares.
Much like you, I had an AR for each purpose (CQB, long range, etc). I know buy AR's (leave them in the box) for the SOLE purpose of trading at some point in the future or as options for my two boys to use as they will.
C4
And that's my point. The same people who didn't prepare for security/defense are the same ones who didn't stock up on food, water, and other necessities. What do you think their next course of action will be when they now have a weapon and ammo, but still no food/water?
When? :confused: :p
And the fact that I know everyone is not like me is exactly why I won't be trading weapons and ammo ;)
Ever watch that TV show Dooms Day Preppers?? Many of the people on there have HUGE gardens, water resources, etc, but NO WEAPONS.
There are TONS of "hippies" out there that live off the grid NOW and that have everything they need to survives (less guns).
Your thinking that you will trade with people that have NOTHING (no food, water or resources) and that you are now handing them a gun and ammo. No one in their right mind would do that.
C4
Much like you, I had an AR for each purpose (CQB, long range, etc). I know buy AR's (leave them in the box) for the SOLE purpose of trading at some point in the future or as options for my two boys to use as they will.
C4
Maybe some Shurbmasters would be better suited for the trade idea...if they try to turn them against you, you could rest assured that you can buy some time with all the "jams" and parts breakages that will occur :D
Depends. Everyones situation is DIFFERENT. Lots of people own ZERO weapons. These people often thought that the "Govt" would protect them. When the Govt no longer exists, they will realize that they have NO WAY of protecting themselves.
And somebody with ZERO arms, who has realized the .gov isn't going to protect them, that suddenly NEEDS a firearm, isn't going to say "no thanks" because you are offering a DelTon AR instead of a Colt.
Maybe some Shurbmasters would be better suited for the trade idea...if they try to turn them against you, you could rest assured that you can buy some time with all the "jams" and parts breakages that will occur :D
You make an excellent point. Which AR's would "Common Folk" know? BM would be a well known name. With that said, even my Mother knows who Colt is. :D
C4
And somebody with ZERO arms, who has realized the .gov isn't going to protect them, that suddenly NEEDS a firearm, isn't going to say "no thanks" because you are offering a DelTon AR instead of a Colt.
Depends. Maybe so. As I stated in my other post, even my Mother knows who Colt and S&W is. Meaning that they MIGHT give you a better trade if it is a gun they recognize the name of.
I never intended my post to get into an end of the world scenario discussion so lets keep it to current times and re-selling please.
C4
If the world has gone to shit you would be better off keeping your rifles. All of them simply for spares...
Can a simple, logical, common sense point be made without someone always throwing in SHTF, doomsday scenarios? Really, if that happens, there are bigger issues to worry about than a couple hundred bucks.
"Wow! You're pregnant? Man, I just lost my job. I guess I'll have to sell some stuff..." or "You know Honey, I'd really like to get a new boat..."
Point is, there are additional advantages to buying good equipment other than just quality & resale is one of them.
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That explains why Bushmaster sells so many AR style rifles.
This times 1000. The average consumer knows very little about firearms. That's why there were substandard rifles selling for $2000+ dollars.
The Internet has provided access to a wealth of info. Most people still use it for Netflix/Facebook/etc...
That said resale or trade isn't a concern for me, societal collapse or not. I buy rifles to shoot them. I can trade gold for the things I can't build, grow, or hunt. Fools would still take it even though they would have no use for it. It's somehow built into us to love shiny things.
Ever watch that TV show Dooms Day Preppers?? Many of the people on there have HUGE gardens, water resources, etc, but NO WEAPONS.
There are TONS of "hippies" out there that live off the grid NOW and that have everything they need to survives (less guns).
Your thinking that you will trade with people that have NOTHING (no food, water or resources) and that you are now handing them a gun and ammo. No one in their right mind would do that.
C4
ETA: Sorry Grant, came in after your post...lets keep it on track fellas.
Depends. Maybe so. As I stated in my other post, even my Mother knows who Colt and S&W is. Meaning that they MIGHT give you a better trade if it is a gun they recognize the name of.
I never intended my post to get into an end of the world scenario discussion so lets keep it to current times and re-selling please.
Any AR had plenty of re-sale value recently.
I sold a used Bushmaster Carbon 15 for $1,400 buy-it-now on Gunbroker, in 16 hours, this year.
PS: You are the one that introduced SHTF to this thread, way back in post #5. ;)
This times 1000. The average consumer knows very little about firearms. That's why there were substandard rifles selling for $2000+ dollars.
The Internet has provided access to a wealth of info. Most people still use it for Netflix/Facebook/etc...
That said resale or trade isn't a concern for me, societal collapse or not. I buy rifles to shoot them. I can trade gold for the things I can't build, grow, or hunt. Fools would still take it even though they would have no use for it. It's somehow built into us to love shiny things.
Again, thread is NOT about end of world scenarios. There is just too many "if's" with that stuff.
The thread is about helping NEW AR buyers make wise choices (as they never know what the future will hold finacially).
C4
Much like you, I had an AR for each purpose (CQB, long range, etc). I know buy AR's (leave them in the box) for the SOLE purpose of trading at some point in the future or as options for my two boys to use as they will.
C4
This x1000. I don't "need" another AR, but when I see things like what is going on in Cyprus - don't say it "can't" happen here - I know having quality things to trade for gasoline, ice, water, milk, etc. to keep my family safe is top priority. Well said Grant, now get some BCM/DD/LMT lowers in stock and you will have a happy consumer :D
I personally view making a rifle purchase with its intended use in mind. Resale is almost never a concern. I'll stick to stocks, bonds, and precious medals when I want to worry about how much I'll be able to sell something for. Rifles are for shooting, investments are for speculating.
couldnt agree more! I buy my shit for me, I don't care what others will value it at later. I've got gold and silver for that.
Chris
Any AR had plenty of re-sale value recently.
I sold a used Bushmaster Carbon 15 for $1,400 buy-it-now on Gunbroker, in 16 hours, this year.
PS: You are the one that introduced SHTF to this thread, way back in post #5. ;)
Currently yes. In 2010, no.
My comments was to fix a narrow minded view. While I don't believe the US govt is going to collapse any time soon, I still prepare for it as it is better to have it and not need it and than to need it and not have it.
I should have realized that all the crazy "SHTF" folks would come out with my comment regarding the US dollar collapsing (my bad).
C4
Currently yes. In 2010, no.
My comments was to fix a narrow minded view. While I don't believe the US govt is going to collapse any time soon, I still prepare for it as it is better to have it and not need it and than to need it and not have it.
I should have realized that all the crazy "SHTF" folks would come out with my comment regarding the US dollar collapsing (my bad).
So when you talk about a SHTF scenario it's okay, when other people continue talking about a point that you brought up, they are crazy?
You are preparing for a situation where the economy tanks and you have to trade rifles for shelter, but we are the crazy ones?
couldnt agree more! I buy my shit for me, I don't care what others will value it at later. I've got gold and silver for that.
Chris
I can understand this. Here is my problem though. As I grow in my knowledge (both training and weapons) and as technology improves, I sell/change/trade Guns. Having a better name lets me get MORE for them.
That is the point to the discussion.
C4
So when you talk about a SHTF scenario it's okay, when other people continue talking about a point that you brought up, they are crazy?
You are preparing for a situation where the economy tanks and you have to trade rifles for shelter, but we are the crazy ones?
Actually, I never used the term SHTF. This term seems to bring out fantasy land and is deviating from the intended discussion.
Since I don't really get into those types of discussions, I forget what happens when someone like me uses it (briefly) for references purposes. Again, my error.
I am not sure where I said that I was intending to trade weapons for shelter. I was simply stating what SOME people may need to do in extreme situations. That is all.
C4
Apricotshot
04-03-13, 10:38
The shop I work part-time at stocks a lot Core-15 products. I have read their stats and have seen dozens of examples of them. Though I have not fired a round out of any of them. All of the materials they use seem to be what you want in a rifle (the infamous Chart). What's with the opinion that they are in the same league as a Bushmaster? Really want to know as I will stop pushing those if a case can be made that they are inferior products.
The shop I work part-time at stocks a lot Core-15 products. I have read their stats and have seen dozens of examples of them. Though I have not fired a round out of any of them. All of the materials they use seem to be what you want in a rifle (the infamous Chart). What's with the opinion that they are in the same league as a Bushmaster? Really want to know as I will stop pushing those if a case can be made that they are inferior products.
This thread isn't about the quality of any certain AR. There are tons of threads on the Core 15 so please run some searches to answer your questions.
Also read this post: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=56063
It basically tells you to "trust, but verify" with examples of what to look for.
C4
I painted both of my AR's, I wonder if that hurts resale..Though I would try to sell anything but my car, guns, etc.
For the rest of the discussion, please keep on track with the ORIGINAL post my me. If you would like to start a thread about which guns are best in some end of world sceario, please start a new thread.
Thanks,
C4
I painted both of my AR's, I wonder if that hurts resale..Though I would try to sell anything but my car, guns, etc.
I think it depends on good a job you did. Some folks are fantastic at it.
When I had much more free time, we used to KG coat AR's and got a lot money doing it. So it just depends.
C4
A GOOD paint/coating job would probably be of benefit to value, resale, but there would be the risk that your best buyer just really doesn't like that color, I guess
A GOOD paint/coating job would probably be of benefit to value, resale, but there would be the risk that your best buyer just really doesn't like that color, I guess
Agree. Like anything else, it has to be done well.
C4
Agree. Like anything else, it has to be done well.
C4
Well I think I did pretty well. :D
Back to the main point of the thread; I can definitely see the point of it all. More and more people are becoming educated when it comes to quality and rubbish AR's. Just in the last couple of years I see more and more people learning about BCM. I had no clue who they were when I 1st joined this site. Neither did anyone else I knew. Now most of my buddies know about BCM. They also know about BM, RRA and DPMS. When I made my 1st AR purchase a right after the AWB sunsetting I went straight for Colt. At that time I didnt know the quality issues concerning BM, RRA and such. I did know that Olympic Arms was absolute crap though. I also stayed away from Franken guns. After getting back into AR's a couple of years ago my 1st new one was a frankengun. LMT lower and BCM upper. Great quality but still a franken gun. My line of thought though was that I wasn't going to even think about selling it. I sold the Colt a while ago and that was a mistake. I knew I didnt want to be caught without an AR if there ever was another AWB. An Voila here we are again with that possibility coming about. I'm also setup with a CQB AR, a 14.5" Middy and a SPRish AR. Covering my bases. Unfortunately I don't have the cash to stock up on AR's for the purposes of resale/trading right now. However, if I did I would'nt buy trash AR's for that purpose. To me that's chasing bad money with good. So I can definitely see Grant's premise and agree with it. The so-called SHTF scenario does change the dynamics though.
Well I think I did pretty well. :D
Well let's see a pic of it!
C4
Agree with Grant on buying decent AR's if one is considering future barter for other items that he mentioned.
A lot of people are becoming more educated on AR's,but there are still a large percentage who are not.Smith& Wesson is a name that is recognized by even the uneducated,making these a good investment for those purposes. The "name" is as famous as Colt.
Then,again,ever since the D.C. "sniper" incidents the news media has played up and misused the name "Bushmaster" so much that there are an unbelievable number of people who think every AR they see is a Bushmaster.Either one of these brands would suffice for the purposes of trade/barter,but the lesser junk guns most likely would not unless the other party is pretty desparate.
I am acquainted with cops who swear by their Bushmasters,people who should know better.
I can understand this. Here is my problem though. As I grow in my knowledge (both training and weapons) and as technology improves, I sell/change/trade Guns. Having a better name lets me get MORE for them.
That is the point to the discussion.
What better-name rifles have you sold, after growing in training/weapons, that you feel you got a higher return on as a result of their name?
Buy what you can afford today and down the road save and trade upwards. 6 years ago I bought a Stag (did not know any better). Today I have a DD and a BCM upper on that Stag lower. I also have a Colt and another DD on the way. Will I keep the Stag.....don't know. I'd give my right arm for a LMT but what I need is a BCM lower and ammo. The general public see only the "look" of the rifle and not the make. Each AR looks just like the rest.
What better-name rifles have you sold, after growing in training/weapons, that you feel you got a higher return on as a result of their name?
LMT 16" M4 for one. I gravitated to LW barrels and Mid-Length gas systems.
This isn't to say that the LMT was a bad gun, but I out grew the short rail length and the M4 profile weight.
LMT is a good name brand and I got my money out of it even though it was used.
Another one is RRA & S&W. I had some EARLY RRA and S&W lowers that sold for more than I bought them for (even before the panic buying).
C4
I also think there are two camps here: the educated & the uneducated. It depends who you are selling to. As stated earlier BM has a well known name and can bring in a big dollar to the uneducated. I know some people that look at me cross-eyed when I try to talk them into buying a BCM. They've never heard of them & think I'm the idiot. I've seen, with my own eyes, people "stepping" over a BCM to buy BM. Personally, I'll still stick with my Colts & BCMs. Point being, know who you're selling to & market it appropriately.
Edit: Sorry Grant, just saw you touched on that point on post #20. Missed it through out all the SHTF BS. :)
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This is a perfect world thought process and not everyone lives in this same world. What if the economy crashes and the US dollar is worthless. You need to trade your AR for food, shelter, etc and certain brands are more sought after than others.
Along that theme, the argument could be made that putting money into QUALITY guns, ammo, mags, etc is a BETTER investment than most everything else these day. ;)
C4
Great thoughts. I did at one point have to sell off a hand gun. I loved that thing. After some time had passed I did come back. The big part that sucks at this time is, if you are in the process of coming back. The price to do so has almost doubled. However...with that being said, don't settle for something less.
Some people here need to grow up. I also seem to detect various levels of butt hurt here as well.
YellowHorse432
04-03-13, 11:56
When i first started getting into AR's (and before M4C), i bought parts (i.e. cheapo barrels) that i figured were just as good.
Then i found this place (M4C)!
I've since dumped all my cheap uppers (Model 1, DSA, and not quite "cheap" per se, an LWRC piston upper), while also selling off sub par parts. This "panic era" helped out a bunch! All last year, i kept putting those cheaper uppers on Gun Broker, only to find out, no one wanted them. Lol. I actually pulled in $2500 on these three uppers alone!
Thanks for the reminder Grant! :laugh:
There are generally two types of people, those who want a lot for less money, and those who would rather have quality over quantity.
People who buy BMs and such, who might care about quality in other things they purchase, think of what the gun is initially going to do for them, not whether they can make a buck off of it. Most people who undertake any new venture, like golf, might start out with inexpensive clubs, then realize they not only like the game, but realize that their game can improve with better equipment. Were their economical clubs a waste of money, no. If they didn't like golf, no big deal, they have little invested. If they end up liking the game, they will end up spending a hell of a lot more for green's fees. ... and where do most newbies get their first equipment, the local sporting goods store, and we all know what is sold there.
Not everyone will be like me, or some others on this site. I have yet to buy a complete rifle, as I have 'assembled' mine, and have parts to be 'assembled' into rifles, and I had already visited the LGS, but did my research here.
Screw stocks and bonds. I invest in firearms. They are the only thing in this world that will always hold their value.
Texpatriate
04-03-13, 12:42
Maybe some Shurbmasters would be better suited for the trade idea...if they try to turn them against you, you could rest assured that you can buy some time with all the "jams" and parts breakages that will occur :D
You could always trade them a rifle without the firing pin installed to see if they turn it on you. If they don't, you give them the firing pin. Somebody like that isn't even likely to notice or even bother to test fire it.
Before joining this forum I was thinking about getting a RRA but after reading some things and Grant posting up his Colt/Trijicon package I couldn't pass up the deal and glad I went with a quality name brand. I don't ever plan on selling it but it's nice to know if I ever need to I won't be losing a bunch of money.
When I was looking for a DD or BCM to purchase my LGS looked at me like I had 3 heads when I inquired about ordering a DD or BCM. He thought those companies were a fly by night operations and other companies such as RRA, DPMS, etc were the best and the only things he orders.
Screw stocks and bonds. I invest in firearms. They are the only thing in this world that will always hold their value.
I wouldn't go that far
When I was looking for a DD or BCM to purchase my LGS looked at me like I had 3 heads when I inquired about ordering a DD or BCM. He thought those companies were a fly by night operations and other companies such as RRA, DPMS, etc were the best and the only things he orders.
This is common. Now reverse it. I have customers come in and ask what AR's I have and I list BCM, DD, Colt, Noveske and S&W. They ask me what I don't stock DPMS or BM. :D
C4
Sell? Guns? I'm unfamiliar with the concept of selling firearms ;)
Texpatriate
04-03-13, 13:07
When I first got into AR's the first three I purchased where a RRA and a Bushmaster. I didn't know much, and these were the names that were touted in other media and sites. As I began to learn more (primarily on this site from others with more realworld experience than I have) I have gradually purchased higher quality rifles and sold off the others to the point that now everything I own is 100% BCM or a mix of BCM and Noveske (my one build rifle). Heck, I bought most of everything I now have from Grant! :D
Thankfully, I was able to get back all of my money on the previous purchases due to the fact that what I had were brands that folks had heard of and that were in demand. So I very much agree with what Grant is asserting. The name brand of the Bushmaster and RRA's and their perceived reputations helped me to recover my losses and purchase better quality gear. Maybe I'd have still lucked out and got my money back with a lesser known brand like del-ton, but I guess we'll never know.
When I first got into AR's the first three I purchased where a RRA and a Bushmaster. I didn't know much, and these were the names that were touted in other media and sites. As I began to learn more (primarily on this site from others with more realworld experience than I have) I have gradually purchased higher quality rifles and sold off the others to the point that now everything I own is 100% BCM or a mix of BCM and Noveske (my one build rifle). Heck, I bought most of everything I now have from Grant! :D
Thankfully, I was able to get back all of my money on the previous purchases due to the fact that what I had were brands that folks had heard of and that were in demand. So I very much agree with what Grant is asserting. The name brand of the Bushmaster and RRA's and their perceived reputations helped me to recover my losses and purchase better quality gear. Maybe I'd have still lucked out and got my money back with a lesser known brand like del-ton, but I guess we'll never know.
For the win! :D
Thank you for your business BTW.
C4
This is common. Now reverse it. I have customers come in and ask what AR's I have and I list BCM, DD, Colt, Noveske and S&W. They ask me what I don't stock DPMS or BM. :D
C4
If you have these, please update your website!
If you have these, please update your website!
;)
C4
This is common. Now reverse it. I have customers come in and ask what AR's I have and I list BCM, DD, Colt, Noveske and S&W. They ask me why I don't stock DPMS or BM. :D
C4
That would be the "uneducated" crowd I spoke of earlier... ;)
Anyway, great OP Grant. Thanks for the reminder & too bad some people had to over think it.
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Actually I would buy a DPMS or Bushmaster on two conditions. They weren't over $500, and I had made the mistake of buying over 10,000 rounds of Tula previously.
I've never lost money selling firearms, I only buy good stuff :)
Don't buy a Mercedes because they have better resale value when you're on a Chevy budget.
skijunkie55
04-03-13, 14:01
When I was looking for a DD or BCM to purchase my LGS looked at me like I had 3 heads when I inquired about ordering a DD or BCM. He thought those companies were a fly by night operations and other companies such as RRA, DPMS, etc were the best and the only things he orders.
This...
To think i passed up a Noveske because of this type of advice when buying my first rifle. :suicide2:
mkmckinley
04-03-13, 14:06
Don't buy a Mercedes because they have better resale value when you're on a Chevy budget.
What if the Mercedes only cost a couple hundred bucks more than the Chevy?
Don't buy a Mercedes because they have better resale value when you're on a Chevy budget.
Yeah, cause there is $34k difference between a Colt & a BM.
Not the same dude...
Edit: ^^Damn, beat me to it. ^^
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I buy once and I cry once 95% of the time...all the time.
Don't buy a Mercedes because they have better resale value when you're on a Chevy budget.
This doesn't really hold true with AR's. Before the crazy panic buying, Colt 6920's were $1000-$1075. Most of your less quality AR's are in the $900-$1k range.
C4
This doesn't really hold true with AR's. Before the crazy panic buying, Colt 6920's were $1000-$1075. Most of your less quality AR's are in the $900-$1k range.
Before the craze it was generally over $1,100 to get a Colt 6920, and some of the less expensive options were as low as $640 or so (like the S&W Sport)
But I suppose S&W isn't usually mentioned in comparisons like this thread because everybody knows of and has heard of S&W, and generally holds a favorable opinion, plus it's not like there's anything 'wrong' with S&W AR's...and that Sport model was selling pretty inexpensively. Definitely the way I'd go for a less expensive option. Something like 60% the cost...that's pretty significant
Yeah, cause there is $34k difference between a Colt & a BM.
Not the same dude...
Edit: ^^Damn, beat me to it. ^^
There's a 40% difference in price for both items. It's just 40% of a much larger number. His mind was headed in the right direction. If you pay $700 on the shelf for a RRA plinker and sell the rifle at a hundred dollar loss after using it for a while, you're still only out 14%. Selling a $2100 rifle for $1800 is the same percentage loss but you're out $300 and you had to front $2100 for the pleasure of owning the rifle.
There's a 40% difference in price for both items. It's just 40% of a much larger number. His mind was headed in the right direction. If you pay $700 on the shelf for a RRA plinker and sell the rifle at a hundred dollar loss after using it for a while, you're still only out 14%. Selling a $2100 rifle for $1800 is the same percentage loss but you're out $300 and you had to front $2100 for the pleasure of owning the rifle.
You over thought the OP & this one too. The Mercedes analogy was a bad one. A couple hundred bucks is way different than several thousand.
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To some yes, to others it isn't. The first mistake is thinking that your situation is just like everyone else. To some people that Noveske is the Mercedes that that have to save a decade for... To others it's an impulse buy... Both of those people are going to have very different perceptions of the "value" that they get out of an item when they go to sell it. I've never sold a firearm, or a car, that I did not feel that I got my money's worth in use and resale value combined.
To some yes, to others it isn't. The first mistake is thinking that your situation is just like everyone else. To some people that Noveske is the Mercedes that that have to save a decade for... To others it's an impulse buy... Both of those people are going to have very different perceptions of the "value" that they get out of an item when they go to sell it. I've never sold a firearm, or a car, that I did not feel that I got my money's worth in use and resale value combined.
16203
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Certainly not perfect, but this is the brand map that I use:
Tier:
1a Knight's Armament HK Noveske
1b Colt BCM DD
1c LMT LaRue LWRC
2a S&W Les Baer Spikes
2b PSA CMMG SIG SAUER
2c Ruger Remington Mossberg
3a STAG Armalite Bushmaster
3b DPMS Delton RRA
3c DSA DoubleStar Olympic
F Vulcan/Blackthorne/Hesse
Certainly not perfect, but this is the brand map that I use:
Tier:
1a Knight's Armament HK Noveske
1b Colt BCM DD
1c LMT LaRue LWRC
2a S&W Les Baer Spikes
2b PSA CMMG SIG SAUER
2c Ruger Remington Mossberg
3a STAG Armalite Bushmaster
3b DPMS Delton RRA
3c DSA DoubleStar Olympic
F Vulcan/Blackthorne/Hesse
did that come out of your ass? :rolleyes:
To some yes, to others it isn't. The first mistake is thinking that your situation is just like everyone else. To some people that Noveske is the Mercedes that that have to save a decade for... To others it's an impulse buy... Both of those people are going to have very different perceptions of the "value" that they get out of an item when they go to sell it. I've never sold a firearm, or a car, that I did not feel that I got my money's worth in use and resale value combined.
Let me expound a little on this. The analogy might work if you look at it this way.
A Chevy is what it is. You know that you can go out, turn the key and then drive the crap out of it for a while. The same can be said about a Merc. Here is where I see a difference. The oil gets changed the same, but you will replace the engine a lot sooner with the Chevy and not the Merc. There are also performance aspects.
Now look at it in Rifle's. For the sake of argument, lets say well known put together rifle over something you pull out of Walmart. (you pick the brands)
Yes, they will both fire. However, eventually the parts wear down. You maintain them the exact way, but I am willing to bet dollars to dimes that your replacing more and working on the Walmart version more often then something else. Like the Merc, you may pay more, up front, but in the long run of maintenance, and reliability, the cost is washed. You may pay 40% more, but when you have to purchase brakes and other parts sooner, that 40% gets chipped away quickly.
So what will hold the value better? A car that you know that not only hold value, but is made from parts that are built to be replaced years into the life of the care, or the one you basically drive till the wheels fall off, and then get another new one?
I watch as people buy uncommon, unknown and questionable AR's these days. They look at the SPEC sheet and see some buzz words and think that it is GTG. This may be true, but realize that AR manufacturers are ALSO aware that you are looking for these same words. ;)
The biggest thing that people seem to overlook when buying an AR is RE-SALE VALUE! The top name brands will sell the best. If you are trying to sell to the "well informed" crowd, you will need to have a brand name like BCM, Colt, DD, Noveske, KAC, LMT, etc. If you are trying to sell to the "I see this company in every magazine I read" crowd, you will need to own a BM, RRA, DPMS, Armalite and S&W.
As you go down more into the weeds with such brands as Del-Ton, ST, Core15, etc, etc the number of people that have heard of these brands diminishes and it will be harder for you to get your money out of your gun, upper or part.
I know that we don't like to sell guns, but stuff happens and we all need money from time to time or want to "trade up." The better the name (or at least the more recognizable name) the easier it is to sell and get most (if not all) of your money back.
Just some food for thought for new AR buyers....
C4
Grant, you are dead on. I have been watching the prices of firearms go up & down for several decades. When something happens to drive prices up, it starts with the desirable firearms first. Those prices then drag up the also-rans. I've seen it with 03s, 03-A3s, 1911s, M1 Garands, Mausers and others. After awhile, when prices normalize and come back down, it's the quality and/or desirable specimens that hold their value best. The bottom falls out of everything else.
Not that rarity has nothing to do with it no matter what the collectors tell you. Items that hold their value best are those that are desirable. For example, Colt puts out far more rifles than I ever will. But they will hold their value much better than a limited run of rifles fabricated by some guy in his garage from 80% receivers and hand-laid carbon fiber handguards.
You're also right to think outside the box. Before the insanity I turned down opportunities to buy PMags for $17 because I could simply wait & buy them for $12. I should have bought every PMag I could afford for $20 and sold half of them. I also didn't buy extra lowers because I didn't need another AR. Hah! I should have bought every LRB & PSA lower I could when they were under $100. I should have put that FDE Colt on lay-a-way when it was $1200.
Now you know why Grant is a successful business man and I am not
Army Chief
04-03-13, 19:55
did that come out of your ass? :rolleyes:
Regardless of where the man's list came from, or what others might think of it, let's remain civil about this.
As for my part, I tend to think that the hobby grade rifles suit their purpose in some sense, given that so few of them are really shot more than once or twice a year, if that. I'm not suggesting that they represent a wise purchase; merely that the tool you never use will likely maintain a fine appearance for a long period of time, and that seems to be what many would-be AR owners are really looking for. A conversation piece. Something to photograph. A key to the club door.
My priorities are somewhat different, of course, and I buy accordingly. Can't readily afford to do otherwise. I pretty much have limited myself to KAC, NRW, Colt, RA, BCM and AXTS.
AC
did that come out of your ass? :rolleyes:
Pretty much.... but it is my ass.......
Grant, you are dead on. I have been watching the prices of firearms go up & down for several decades. When something happens to drive prices up, it starts with the desirable firearms first. Those prices then drag up the also-rans. I've seen it with 03s, 03-A3s, 1911s, M1 Garands, Mausers and others. After awhile, when prices normalize and come back down, it's the quality and/or desirable specimens that hold their value best. The bottom falls out of everything else.
Not that rarity has nothing to do with it no matter what the collectors tell you. Items that hold their value best are those that are desirable. For example, Colt puts out far more rifles than I ever will. But they will hold their value much better than a limited run of rifles fabricated by some guy in his garage from 80% receivers and hand-laid carbon fiber handguards.
You're also right to think outside the box. Before the insanity I turned down opportunities to buy PMags for $17 because I could simply wait & buy them for $12. I should have bought every PMag I could afford for $20 and sold half of them. I also didn't buy extra lowers because I didn't need another AR. Hah! I should have bought every LRB & PSA lower I could when they were under $100. I should have put that FDE Colt on lay-a-way when it was $1200.
Now you know why Grant is a successful business man and I am not
Under panic times, big names (Noveske, Colt, BCM, DD, etc) command 3-5 times their normal RETAIL value. It was very common to see Colt LE6920's sell for $3k + on GB.
The key to being successful in this business is pre-planning. In early 2012, I followed my own advice (which I posted on this forum) and put in large purchase orders for things like Colt, BCM, DD, S&W and Noveske firearms. When Sandy Hook hit, I had guns, mags and ammo in stock and continued to get orders filled for the next 3 months.
By following my own wisdom, I made as much profit in this first quarter as I did ALL of last year. We refer to this as "WINNING." :D
C4
I sell cars. If I posted my cars at 3X5 times retail, would ya'll call me a winner?
I sell cars. If I posted my cars at 3X5 times retail, would ya'll call me a winner?
Grant didn't sell guns at that price at his store. He did however have an excellent business strategy and excellent foresight.
If he wants to share his multifaceted strategy that brought in extra profit and maintained his good name, he can elaborate. I pieced it together lol
Grant didn't sell guns at that price at his store. He did however have an excellent business strategy and excellent foresight.
If he wants to share his multifaceted strategy that brought in extra profit and maintained his good name, he can elaborate. I pieced it together lol
It was posted all over the 'where can I get it' thread too, as I recall. If I am thinking of what you are.
Not everybody is all about the free market, capitalism, and maximizing shareholder value, though.
(they should be, nothing wrong with charging what the market will bear for non essential items you do not have a monopoly on)
K. I was just curious. I've been called a whole lot less than a "winner" when a 28,000 dollar vehicle that was hard to get had a 1500 buck addendum on it, which btw, I had nothing to do with, was in stock.
Just wondering. I'd just seen firearms that were priced, should I say, way,way over whatever retail is supposed to be. No foul, just...curious...supply and demand...ammo too....magazines....whatever, doesn't affect me. Other than I'm not shooting anymore. Till prices come down. Maybe they won't? Who knows. I do miss practicing. But, I've had the last 35 years or so to shoot and I probably didn't take advantage when I should have.
Anyone know where I can get a reasonably priced brick of .22 long rifle.:laugh:
Sabrefan all I have to say in response to the car premiums is to talk to anyone who has ever bought a new model Ferrari.
Picking up a 430 Scuderia at launch carried an almost one hundred thousand dollar premium over what the car was supposed to retail for. They were not available for MSRP to even the most consistent of buyers. They charge it because they can. The same thing applied to the market for rifles at a given time because demand far outpaced supply. If you had a car that was that desirable on your lot, I know that you would mark it up to whatever the market will bear. Like a Mark IV Supra. They now sell for pretty much what they cost new...
Sabrefan all I have to say in response to the car premiums is to talk to anyone who has ever bought a new model Ferrari.
Picking up a 430 Scuderia at launch carried an almost one hundred thousand dollar premium over what the car was supposed to retail for. They were not available for MSRP to even the most consistent of buyers. They charge it because they can. The same thing applied to the market for rifles at a given time because demand far outpaced supply. If you had a car that was that desirable on your lot, I know that you would mark it up to whatever the market will bear. Like a Mark IV Supra. They now sell for pretty much what they cost new...
If I could find a good condition FD3S... oh the debt I'd go in to...
I sell cars. If I posted my cars at 3X5 times retail, would ya'll call me a winner?
If you knew there was going to be a shortage, warned everyone PRIOR to the shortage, had inventory during the shortage and then let the market decide what an item was worth, yes I would classify you as a winner.
C4
K. I was just curious. I've been called a whole lot less than a "winner" when a 28,000 dollar vehicle that was hard to get had a 1500 buck addendum on it, which btw, I had nothing to do with, was in stock.
Just wondering. I'd just seen firearms that were priced, should I say, way,way over whatever retail is supposed to be. No foul, just...curious...supply and demand...ammo too....magazines....whatever, doesn't affect me. Other than I'm not shooting anymore. Till prices come down. Maybe they won't? Who knows. I do miss practicing. But, I've had the last 35 years or so to shoot and I probably didn't take advantage when I should have.
Anyone know where I can get a reasonably priced brick of .22 long rifle.:laugh:
Honestly, guns, ammo, mags, etc were all sold at MAP or BELOW map to our local customers. I have always taken care of them. Prices on my website remained at manufacturer set retail. We also supported a local dealer network. Their prices never went up.
After supporting these groups of people, we listed whatever items we had left on various auction sites at manufacturer set retail. What people bid things up to was entirely on them.
C4
Ever watch that TV show Dooms Day Preppers?? Many of the people on there have HUGE gardens, water resources, etc, but NO WEAPONS.
There are TONS of "hippies" out there that live off the grid NOW and that have everything they need to survives (less guns).
Your thinking that you will trade with people that have NOTHING (no food, water or resources) and that you are now handing them a gun and ammo. No one in their right mind would do that.
C4
That means they have everything "I" need to survive :D
This is a perfect world thought process and not everyone lives in this same world. What if the economy crashes and the US dollar is worthless. You need to trade your AR for food, shelter, etc and certain brands are more sought after than others.
C4
If it ever gets to that point, nobody will care what brand name is on the rifle. If it shoots and there is ammo for it, someone will want it desparately enough to do just about anything necessary to acquire it.
If it ever gets to that point, nobody will care what brand name is on the rifle. If it shoots and there is ammo for it, someone will want it desparately enough to do just about anything necessary to acquire it.
Possibly. As I stated, even NONE Gun people will recognize certain brands. This plays to your benefit.
C4
......
The biggest thing that people seem to overlook when buying an AR is RE-SALE VALUE! The top name brands will sell the best. If you are trying to sell to the "well informed" crowd, you will need to have a brand name like BCM, Colt, DD, Noveske, KAC, LMT, etc. If you are trying to sell to the "I see this company in every magazine I read" crowd, you will need to own a BM, RRA, DPMS, Armalite and S&W.
...
C4
......
The key to being successful in this business is pre-planning. In early 2012, I followed my own advice (which I posted on this forum) and put in large purchase orders for things like Colt, BCM, DD, S&W and Noveske firearms. When Sandy Hook hit, I had guns, mags and ammo in stock and continued to get orders filled for the next 3 months. ....
C4
Grant, I'm a little confused. I have seen a lot of S&W stuff on your site, and yet you seem in your OP to lump M&Ps in with Shrubmasters, RRAs, and DPMSs. While I realize S&W is not Colt, DD, or BCM (of which I own examples of each, in part thanks to you,) do you really think S&W is that low on the quality scale? And if so, why do you carry them?
Grant, I'm a little confused. I have seen a lot of S&W stuff on your site, and yet you seem in your OP to lump M&Ps in with Shrubmasters, RRAs, and DPMSs. While I realize S&W is not Colt, DD, or BCM (of which I own examples of each, in part thanks to you,) do you really think S&W is that low on the quality scale? And if so, why do you carry them?
S&W is the lowest quality AR I stock. I personally feel that their AR's are superior to the majority of the AR's out there though (BM, RRA, DPMS, Armalite, etc).
So I am a fan of their stuff and like to see them continue to improve their products.
C4
By following my own wisdom, I made as much profit in this first quarter as I did ALL of last year. We refer to this as "WINNING." :D
C4
I like this qoute Grant. I would have followed your advice but I never seem to have any disposable income.
I know what Grant is saying. He didn't jack his prices, he just had more stuff to sell than anyone else, so he was able to continue selling while others were out of stock. I bought several items from him Dec. thru March and the prices were more than fair.
I know what Grant is saying. He didn't jack his prices, he just had more stuff to sell than anyone else, so he was able to continue selling while others were out of stock. I bought several items from him Dec. thru March and the prices were more than fair.
Maybe not the prices you paid. But then there is the Gunbroker account. But Gunbroker prices, especially for the auctions, are nothing more than market prices. Buyers set the price. If buyers decide an item is worth a certain amount then, by golly, that's what it's worth. Free market and all that.
Yeah, cause there is $34k difference between a Colt & a BM.
Not the same dude...
Edit: ^^Damn, beat me to it. ^^
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$34k or $340
Your budget is your budget and your budget is relative.
edit... And "resale value" is a residual effect of value. Not vice versa.
I didn't read all the replies in this thread but did want to add my 2 cents.
Something to consider about your resale if you want to sell local is what the local market perceives as good. In some areas people think BM/DPMS are the good brands and when you tell them you have a BCM/Daniel Defence/Noveske they look at you and ask WHO? Sure I live in a small town but many people just buy based on what they hear from other people.
My first AR is a BCM, half of it was purchased from Grant and the other half from BCM, that rifle is priceless as the upper arrived at my house while I was at the hospital when my son was born and a couple days later picked up the lower from an FFL. That AR will be his someday, even though he is only 2 now. Even if I wanted to sell it local though I would probably have better luck selling a bushmaster.
I feel lucky to have found this site and made what I feel are good purchases and can make good recommendations to people about ARs. A guy I work with when things went nuts started asking me about ARs and with things flying off the shelf I told him there wasnt much of a choice if staying local but knowing our walmart stocks Colts I told him that would be his best choice. He bought a DPMS for a decent price, not a great gun, but better than nothing and took my advice to watch for a Colt. Less than a month ago he picked up a Colt and sold the DPMS the next day so I consider that a win.
I didn't read all the replies in this thread but did want to add my 2 cents.
Something to consider about your resale if you want to sell local is what the local market perceives as good. In some areas people think BM/DPMS are the good brands and when you tell them you have a BCM/Daniel Defence/Noveske they look at you and ask WHO? Sure I live in a small town but many people just buy based on what they hear from other people.
^This. I just sold my cheapy DPMS rifle at a local gun show last weekend. Couldn't even tell you how many people looked at it and said, "DPMS, that's good stuff. Nice rifle." :blink:
Ironically, the guy I sold it to was deliberately searching for a Rock River AR...
I have a question, and rather than make a new thread about resale value I figured I'd just ask it here since it's pertinent. I'm "building" my own rifle - not really, but bear with me. I have a Seekins lower that I plan to drop a G&R tactical LPK and Geissele SD-E trigger into, add a Magpul STR stock and Magpul MOE grip to, and join with a Noveske complete upper. (leaning toward the 16" Recce w/ Switchblock and either having a 9" NSR fitted or try to mod an 11" NSR) Here's the question: Will the lack of a Noveske lower affect the "value" of this gun? Granted, I know either way its a custom build to some extent which generally means it will be harder to sell and worth less than a comparable factory rifle (such as a complete Noveske), but would the addition of a Noveske lower make it "close enough" to a complete factory rifle?
I bought the Seekins because it's what I was able to find in stock at a semi-decent price. I'm just wondering if swapping for a Noveske is something I should keep in mind for future consideration. Thanks.
^This. I just sold my cheapy DPMS rifle at a local gun show last weekend. Couldn't even tell you how many people looked at it and said, "DPMS, that's good stuff. Nice rifle." :blink:
Ironically, the guy I sold it to was deliberately searching for a Rock River AR...
ive spoken to many people in the research for my ar in my area in the last 2 years. i cant even begin to tell you how many people "highly" recommend BM, DPMS, and RRA etc while simultaneously telling me what how much theirs malfunction. mention BCM or Noveske and they're all :confused: and ask "is that a bargain brand?, never heard of them". i got a buddy that bought a $600 rifle(forgot the name) for $1200, sold it for $3,000(yeah, that's three zeroes).......... and bought another rifle for $1200. :eek:
I have a question, and rather than make a new thread about resale value I figured I'd just ask it here since it's pertinent. I'm "building" my own rifle - not really, but bear with me. I have a Seekins lower that I plan to drop a G&R tactical LPK and Geissele SD-E trigger into, add a Magpul STR stock and Magpul MOE grip to, and join with a Noveske complete upper. (leaning toward the 16" Recce w/ Switchblock and either having a 9" NSR fitted or try to mod an 11" NSR) Here's the question: Will the lack of a Noveske lower affect the "value" of this gun? Granted, I know either way its a custom build to some extent which generally means it will be harder to sell and worth less than a comparable factory rifle (such as a complete Noveske), but would the addition of a Noveske lower make it "close enough" to a complete factory rifle?
I bought the Seekins because it's what I was able to find in stock at a semi-decent price. I'm just wondering if swapping for a Noveske is something I should keep in mind for future consideration. Thanks.
Parts guns are parts guns and if you are not a well known gunsmith or armorer, people might not be interested in your gun.
Typically, factory built guns sell better than Frankenguns.
C4
gordongekko
04-05-13, 09:44
My parts guns, or custom builds, are built knowing that they will have to be a last resort to sell/trade. Nobody gets a warm and fuzzy feeling knowing it was custom built by me. So I build them knowing that. My factory built guns are a much easier commodity to trade/sell. Just the way it is! Doesn't make a custom built gun worse though.
Devildawg2531
04-05-13, 20:11
Parts guns are parts guns and if you are not a well known gunsmith or armorer, people might not be interested in your gun.
Typically, factory built guns sell better than Frankenguns.
C4
Grant lot's of great advice in this thread. Question about your Frankengun comment. I bought a BCM upper and 6 months later added the BCM lower when I had saved the $. Is this considered a Frankengun?
Parts guns are parts guns and if you are not a well known gunsmith or armorer, people might not be interested in your gun.
Typically, factory built guns sell better than Frankenguns.
C4
Thanks for the advice. So it I'm following you correctly, anything other than the factory configuration, factory installed, is pretty much a frankengun right? Example: if I bought a complete Noveske, swapped out the trigger for an SD-E and the stock for an Magpul STR would that turn it into a frankengun?
I'm getting the impression that the fact that the parts are self-installed has more of an effect on the value than whether parts are aftermarket or factory, correct? If I could convince Noveske to build a custom gun for me, using the parts I requested, how would the value of that rifle compare to: 1) The same custom assembled by me 2) a factory Noveske (not custom) and 3) A rifle built with all Noveske parts to be identical to a factory rifle, but partially assembled by me (say, building the lower). Assume the total sum of all the components is equal and I'm not a well known armorer/gunsmith.
Thanks for the advice. So it I'm following you correctly, anything other than the factory configuration, factory installed, is pretty much a frankengun right? Example: if I bought a complete Noveske, swapped out the trigger for an SD-E and the stock for an Magpul STR would that turn it into a frankengun?
I'm getting the impression that the fact that the parts are self-installed has more of an effect on the value than whether parts are aftermarket or factory, correct? If I could convince Noveske to build a custom gun for me, using the parts I requested, how would the value of that rifle compare to: 1) The same custom assembled by me 2) a factory Noveske (not custom) and 3) A rifle built with all Noveske parts to be identical to a factory rifle, but partially assembled by me (say, building the lower). Assume the total sum of all the components is equal and I'm not a well known armorer/gunsmith.
It seems to be getting taken a bit far. Almost everybody ends up doing something to their rifles, and nobody in their right mind is going to shy away from a rifle because the upper and the lower weren't paired together at the factory, or because a different FCG, selector, handguard, or stock was installed.
But from a purely and only resale perspective I think that keeping the stock parts and putting the rifle back to stock, then selling the upgraded parts separately, will get more of your $ back. After all, the person who buys it probably isn't going to end up wanting it exactly as you had it anyway
It seems to be getting taken a bit far. Almost everybody ends up doing something to their rifles, and nobody in their right mind is going to shy away from a rifle because the upper and the lower weren't paired together at the factory, or because a different FCG, selector, handguard, or stock was installed.
But from a purely and only resale perspective I think that keeping the stock parts and putting the rifle back to stock, then selling the upgraded parts separately, will get more of your $ back. After all, the person who buys it probably isn't going to end up wanting it exactly as you had it anyway
I'm not so sure. Maybe external changes like adding an optic, sling, or foregrip, but what internal? I dunno... I think this is an appropriate time to bring up car sales again. What's worth more, the unmolested 2007 Honda Civic, or the same Civic that the owner has added a loud muffler, intake kit, performance computer/chip, lowering springs and a body kit to? Seat covers and fuzzy dice are one thing, but neon lights and carbon fiber accents are a bit more involved...
I agree that you're apt to get more money selling the item and the aftermarket stuff separately, but that's not to say the simple addition of the aftermarket stuff by a less-qualified installer doesn't affect the resale value of the item. Going back to the Civic scenario, I avoid ALL cars that have been messed unless there's proof it was done absolutely right, and I like what was done. I especially avoid cars that have been messed with and then returned to "original." All that means is that do-it-yourself Joe has been wrenching on it twice as often, once to put it in, once to take it out. At the very least I'll offer quite a bit less than blue book value, even if there doesn't "appear" to be any harm done.
Really interested in hearing Grant's opinion on this...
I bought a BCM upper and 6 months later added the BCM lower when I had saved the $. Is this considered a Frankengun?
IMHO, No. And how would anyone know? Think of them as twins, separated at birth. They're still brothers. ;)
It seems to be getting taken a bit far. Almost everybody ends up doing something to their rifles, and nobody in their right mind is going to shy away from a rifle because the upper and the lower weren't paired together at the factory, or because a different FCG, selector, handguard, or stock was installed.
But from a purely and only resale perspective I think that keeping the stock parts and putting the rifle back to stock, then selling the upgraded parts separately, will get more of your $ back. After all, the person who buys it probably isn't going to end up wanting it exactly as you had it anyway
Gotta agree with Warp on this one. Might vary on a case by case basis. Quality optics might be another exception.
I think this is an appropriate time to bring up car sales again.
I'd have to disagree. I don't there really ever is an appropriate time. It's apples to oranges... or in this case guns to cars. :rolleyes:
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Grant lot's of great advice in this thread. Question about your Frankengun comment. I bought a BCM upper and 6 months later added the BCM lower when I had saved the $. Is this considered a Frankengun?
No, but people will ask you if it was a factory built gun and want the box, manual, mag, etc.
C4
Thanks for the advice. So it I'm following you correctly, anything other than the factory configuration, factory installed, is pretty much a frankengun right? Example: if I bought a complete Noveske, swapped out the trigger for an SD-E and the stock for an Magpul STR would that turn it into a frankengun?
I'm getting the impression that the fact that the parts are self-installed has more of an effect on the value than whether parts are aftermarket or factory, correct? If I could convince Noveske to build a custom gun for me, using the parts I requested, how would the value of that rifle compare to: 1) The same custom assembled by me 2) a factory Noveske (not custom) and 3) A rifle built with all Noveske parts to be identical to a factory rifle, but partially assembled by me (say, building the lower). Assume the total sum of all the components is equal and I'm not a well known armorer/gunsmith.
In some instances, people will want just the upper or lower receiver (common with Noveske). So what internals are in it won't matter too much to them and if all you did was swap out the FCG (with an SD-E), people will be happy with that I think.
C4
Eddiesketti
04-06-13, 07:00
I wish I could staple the OP statement to the forehead of a local gun dealer. What an idiot. 4k for a frankengun that all the pieces are the low end crap. I hope he goes out of business soon.
No, but people will ask you if it was a factory built gun and want the box, manual, mag, etc.
C4
If someone bought complete BCM uppers and lowers separately, where could they get a BCM manual?
It's pretty much an industry wide practice that if you need an owner's manual, contact the manufacturer and they will send you one free
I'm picking up a factory Noveske (today :) ) ; Depending on what trigger is in it, I'm going to change it to a SSA, and maybe the stock. But If I were to ever sell it (and I'd have to be pretty desperate to do that!), I'd likely take it back to factory beforehand.
Great thread. When my friends asked about ARs before the panic I always pointed them to Colts. Most of these folks would likely shoot the rifle a couple times a year but the chances of them selling it off later were high. I always said they could sell it for what they put into it do to name recognition. I have LMTs, BCMs and KACs - which most here would say are decent guns but the average Joe wouldn't recognize and none of my friends had heard of these brands. Most also asked about Bushmasters and RRA causing me to attempt to steer them towards the Colt for a little extra money.
This is a perfect world thought process and not everyone lives in this same world. What if the economy crashes and the US dollar is worthless. You need to trade your AR for food, shelter, etc and certain brands are more sought after than others.
C4
When that times comes, those with ARs wont need to trade for anything now will they?
When that times comes, those with ARs wont need to trade for anything now will they?
Might doesn't always make right.
Neither does letting your family starve defenseless from predators. If the world goes to hell in a handbasket. My family is more important than anyone else on this planet an you are lying to yourself if you aren't saying the same thing. I dont buy weapons for their resale value, I have them to be the last line of defense from the thugs that will try to take everything from me.
When that times comes, those with ARs wont need to trade for anything now will they?
That is to assume that all AR owners are bullies and thugs... I'm really confused as to why you would insinuate that. I can tell you that there are many AR owners that do not share your mindset of taking things by force and would quickly put the kibosh on you for trying if that time comes.
Neither does letting your family starve defenseless from predators. If the world goes to hell in a handbasket. My family is more important than anyone else on this planet an you are lying to yourself if you aren't saying the same thing. I dont buy weapons for their resale value, I have them to be the last line of defense from the thugs that will try to take everything from me.
If that is your mindset I pity you. You would quickly become target number one trying to exercise absolute authority and worth over everyone else in that situation. There is a huge difference between valuing, protecting, and providing for your family and seeing them as worth more than anyone else. My family is important to me as well and I will protect and provide for them, but I'm not going to destroy someone else's, unprovoked, for a loaf of bread or a place to stay. Should the world go to hell in a hand basket, you and your family would quickly find yourself, starving, shivering, and defenseless while the real predators close in on you, all while the rest of us have banded together to help each other because we understand the value of all life and the need to keep our moral compass's true.
Now, can we please get back on topic? I thought we were discussing the resale value of different rifles, not apocalyptic bartering systems. :rolleyes:
Neither does letting your family starve defenseless from predators. If the world goes to hell in a handbasket. My family is more important than anyone else on this planet an you are lying to yourself if you aren't saying the same thing. I dont buy weapons for their resale value, I have them to be the last line of defense from the thugs that will try to take everything from me.
Assuming thugs aren't also armed. Assuming people you are trading with aren't also armed. Etc.
Are you a first shirt?
It is hard to convince people to buy KAC, BCM, LMT, or Noveske because, unless you are into ARs like most on here are, they have never heard of them.
Case in point, yesterday my daughter's boyfriend bought a RRA Operator even though the gun store had a Colt. The Colt was a few hundred more and the RRA had some goofy rail on it. He thought the rail was worth it over the Colt.
Like others have said, the average guy knows DPMS, RRA, and Bushmaster and will snag them up in a heartbeat but shy away from the others. Everyone also knows of Colt but that little extra money for a basic Colt turns a person away.
When that times comes, those with ARs wont need to trade for anything now will they?
Wrong.
Also, having quality ARs when it's time to sell keeps you from being "That Guy". Long before I even got into ARs, I realized the level of quality of firearms a person had in their collection, or in their shop, or on the table at the gunshow was a strong indicator if their level of knowledge and experience could be trusted
the opposite has been true for me.
I had a Noveske 10.5 upper that I bought from Rainier Arms new. Suffice to say, to move it I had to take a big hit. Why would someone buy an upper echelon upper for almost the same price as new?
I've bought the "cheaper" brands ( DPMS, COR15, rRA) after and have resold them for just as much.
There is more of a market for cheaper brands because more can afford it.
The higher you go the buyer pool diminishes.
Same thing happened to my 1911s. I sold my Ed Brown Kobra Carry for a big loss. The springfields I've bought and sold I pretty much got even.
Slowly but surely m4c is turning into an elitist site like (b)ARFcom
Just my .02 cents.
the opposite has been true for me.
I had a Noveske 10.5 upper that I bought from Rainier Arms new. Suffice to say, to move it I had to take a big hit. Why would someone buy an upper echelon upper for almost the same price as new?
I've bought the "cheaper" brands ( DPMS, COR15, rRA) after and have resold them for just as much.
There is more of a market for cheaper brands because more can afford it.
The higher you go the buyer pool diminishes.
Same thing happened to my 1911s. I sold my Ed Brown Kobra Carry for a big loss. The springfields I've bought and sold I pretty much got even.
This is true with anything of greater initial value and, hopefully, quality, especially if the sale is of necessity. What makes it more palatable is how much the item was used, and how long one owned it.
With the Ed Brown, one would buy it much quicker, being used, if the price were closer to half its original value. Buying a used one, with a price close to MSRP, the buyer might opt for a new one, because let's face it, paying that much for a firearm has a lot more to do with it viscerally than the firearm's objective purpose.
Now, can we please get back on topic? I thought we were discussing the resale value of different rifles, not apocalyptic bartering systems. :rolleyes:
Actually, that is precisely the topic. Go back to the beginning of the thread. The set up was that the US dollar has become "worthless." Not my words, but that is pretty much the ultimate SHTF scenario.
This is a perfect world thought process and not everyone lives in this same world. What if the economy crashes and the US dollar is worthless. You need to trade your AR for food, shelter, etc and certain brands are more sought after than others.
I would call that apocalyptic bartering, wouldn't you?
Actually, that is precisely the topic. Go back to the beginning of the thread. The set up was that the US dollar has become "worthless." Not my words, but that is pretty much the ultimate SHTF scenario.
I would call that apocalyptic bartering, wouldn't you?
I would say if it ever got that bad, the brand of the AR is not going to matter nearly as much as if it shoots and you can get ammo for it. But until then, I will choose quality for the weapons I keep for personal use over quantity.
This is a perfect world thought process and not everyone lives in this same world. What if the economy crashes and the US dollar is worthless. You need to trade your AR for food, shelter, etc and certain brands are more sought after than others.
C4
If you look at the panic buying that is/has occurred lately, if that is any indication, then ANY AR is worth its weight in gold. Crap rifles were selling what high end rifles used to regularly sell for and only low-end ammo was sold out. The high end .22/.223 was almost always readily available.
If you look at the panic buying that is/has occurred lately, if that is any indication, then ANY AR is worth its weight in gold. Crap rifles were selling what high end rifles used to regularly sell for and only low-end ammo was sold out. The high end .22/.223 was almost always readily available.
Exactly. As the panic buying gets more and more stupid, the price gap between junk and quality actually shrinks on a percentage basis. Colts were selling for double MSRP, but BMs and junkmasters were selling for triple the pre-panic prices.
In the most recent panic, the financially smart move would have been to flip lower-end ARs to yield a higher marginal return.
If you look at the panic buying that is/has occurred lately, if that is any indication, then ANY AR is worth its weight in gold. Crap rifles were selling what high end rifles used to regularly sell for and only low-end ammo was sold out. The high end .22/.223 was almost always readily available.
People still hold out for particular brands. We see people pass up crap for a BCM or Colt.
You are also correct. People WILL buy what we consider "crap" for over retail.
C4
It's all about your local market. There are only a small amount of potential customers up here that even recognize the upper tier AR's. I watched $700 DPMS Oracles go for $1800 all day, and ($1100)Colt 6920's bring the same price. Honestly, if I was looking to maximize my profit margin I would be picking up cheap AR's and turning them in the next panic, not high end ones.
It's all about your local market. There are only a small amount of potential customers up here that even recognize the upper tier AR's. I watched $700 DPMS Oracles go for $1800 all day, and ($1100)Colt 6920's bring the same price. Honestly, if I was looking to maximize my profit margin I would be picking up cheap AR's and turning them in the next panic, not high end ones.
Watch out for the fact that it is illegal for a non-dealer to purchase firearms with the express/specific intent of re-selling them for a profit.
I know a LOT of people have been doing this, and a LOT of people have been very public about it, but, well, it isn't exactly legal.
Watch out for the fact that it is illegal for a non-dealer to purchase firearms with the express/specific intent of re-selling them for a profit.
I know a LOT of people have been doing this, and a LOT of people have been very public about it, but, well, it isn't exactly legal.
Plenty of FFL holders were doing it...
Plenty of FFL holders were doing it...
Um...duh?
Pivotal aspect to my post:
Watch out for the fact that it is illegal for a non-dealer to purchase firearms with the express/specific intent of re-selling them for a profit.
I know a LOT of people have been doing this, and a LOT of people have been very public about it, but, well, it isn't exactly legal.
Watch out for the fact that it is illegal for a non-dealer to purchase firearms with the express/specific intent of re-selling them for a profit.
I know a LOT of people have been doing this, and a LOT of people have been very public about it, but, well, it isn't exactly legal.
With due respect to you...
Not trying to argue but I don't believe this is quite true...What you seem to be implying is "straw purchase". The intent is for a buyer to purchase a firearm and then knowingly resell (or "gift") to someone that is prohibited from legally aquiring/owning one (pre-planned event). I think it all boils down to having prior knowledge and this is my understanding of "straw purchases".
As far as "flipping" a firearm, there doesn't seem to be anything illegal going on...maybe a bunch of butthurt but that's something else.
Added : I don't "flip" my firearms. If I do happen to sell, which is rare, I sell them for what I feel is fair market value. Just felt like I should add that.
Well, I looked into it more specifically, and apparently it comes down to the attorney general's definition of "engaged in the business of" (even though last I checked an AG's opinion was not binding and it could go down differently)
"(C) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921 (a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;..."
Well, I looked into it more specifically, and apparently it comes down to the attorney general's definition of "engaged in the business of" (even though last I checked an AG's opinion was not binding and it could go down differently)
"(C) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921 (a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;..."
I can see how this would definitely negatively apply against an unlicensed individual *with a known history of reselling firearms and the profits from those sales constituting the majority (or even significant portion) of their income. Basically; Is their livelihood dependent upon these sales?
I can see how this would definitely negatively apply against an unlicensed individual reselling firearms and the profits from those sales constituting the majority of their income. Basically; Is their livelihood dependent on these sales? I'm not taking tax laws into consideration here.
The "majority of their income" thing is absolutely not required. Their lvelihood depending on the sales also is not required.
But the "repetitive" aspect certain means (going by the AG's opinion) that buying one firearm for resale would be fine.
This was the single best discussion that I found/read on the matter, complete with court cases/references/examples
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=699556
I can see how this would definitely negatively apply against an unlicensed individual reselling firearms and the profits from those sales constituting the majority (or even significant portion) of their income. Basically; Is their livelihood dependent upon these sales?
It does not have to be a majority (or even a significant portion) of income, and their livelihood does not have to be dependent upon the sales.
But, going by the AG's opinion, buying a single firearm to resell for profit would be fine.
Here is the best single thread/discussion I found on it, complete with examples/references/court cases
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=699556
"Your honor, I was simply enhancing MY firearms collection by ridding it of all of those Bushmasters..."
I can see how this would definitely negatively apply against an unlicensed individual *with a known history of reselling firearms and the profits from those sales constituting the majority (or even significant portion) of their income. Basically; Is their livelihood dependent upon these sales?
It doesn't need to constitute the majority, or even a significant portion, of their income.
This is the best single thread/source I found on the topic. It is complete with references, citations, and court case examples.
It's worth reading through if this side-topic we have going may directly affect you
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=699556
It doesn't need to constitute the majority, or even a significant portion, of their income.
This is the best single thread/source I found on the topic. It is complete with references, citations, and court case examples.
It's worth reading through if this side-topic we have going may directly affect you
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=699556
While it does not affect me at all and it absolutely was worth reading. Thank you for providing. I followed the additional links provided within concerning the court cases involved. The first is is more about the most likely unregistered NFA items and firearm with the missing serial number. The latter two are clear representations of what unlicensed dealing and more related to what we are talking about albeit extreme.
"It's worth reading through if this side-topic we have going may directly affect you"
It was definitely worth reading but as I do not "flip" firearms or related items, it has no direct affect on me. They do affect me indirectly as a matter of being an enthusiast though.
Following the three links provided and reading through the case synopses, they seem to reaffirm my thoughts on the subject (except for the first which involves NFA restricted items).
That explains why Bushmaster sells so many AR style rifles.
S@W ARs are low end as well but that doesn't stop anybody from spending big bucks on one.
Actually, I never used the term SHTF. This term seems to bring out fantasy land and is deviating from the intended discussion.
Since I don't really get into those types of discussions, I forget what happens when someone like me uses it (briefly) for references purposes. Again, my error.
I am not sure where I said that I was intending to trade weapons for shelter. I was simply stating what SOME people may need to do in extreme situations. That is all.
C4
I agree with Grant all the way.
It doesn't need to be doomsday/post-apocalytic type scenarios all the time.
Many people probably sell their guns in tough times when they need money more than guns. I've sold 2 AR15's in the past, once to pay for car repairs and the other to raise money for a house downpayment.
On the topic of quality parts -- if you are going on duty, would you rather grab that Colt or Delton?
Or if you had two AR's and had to sell one, would you rather sell the Colt or Delton?
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