View Full Version : Wolf will clog your gas tube with lacquer!
So I am at the range yesterday and I wanted to make sure my new ADS Basic would cycle Wolf before I buy a big lot of it. I go in the range house and ask the gentleman working the counter if he has any Wolf in .223. He says no, and then asks me what king of gun I'm shooting. I tell him have a new AR that I want to run it through. He looks at me sideways and says to me: "You need to be careful shooting Wolf out of an AR. The lacquer will melt off and clog up your gas tube. I've seen it happen too many times out here." :eek:
I said, "Wow, sounds like I better stay way from Wolf!" I thanked him for his help and left. I guess I better pick a spare gas tube or two! :D
Yet another reason I dont like wolf
So the laquer off the casing is going to travel down the barrel (swimming upstream of the hot expanding gas) and then get into the gas tube where it will clog up a tiny orifice where the hot gases are being forced through at extremely high pressure?
That's a new anti-wolf argument to me.
So the laquer off the casing is going to travel down the barrel (swimming upstream of the hot expanding gas) and then get into the gas tube where it will clog up a tiny orifice where the hot gases are being forced through at extremely high pressure?
That's a new anti-wolf argument to me.
Good point. I had not thought this through, obviously
the current production has a plastic coating witch dosen't cause any problems.
I know guys who shoot thousands of rounds through transferable M16's with no problems
The laquer has to go some where. But evidence shows no major issues with Wolf.
Much prefer the laquer stuff to the new "polymer coated" stuff.
No issues with laquer coming off.
RogerinTPA
03-22-08, 18:54
Complete and utter BS! My round count with Wolf is 7k plus with lacquer and polymer...absolutely no evidence to support that claim or lacquer melting in the chamber, gas tube or BCG.:rolleyes:
Heavy Metal
03-22-08, 19:55
Much prefer the laquer stuff to the new "polymer coated" stuff.
No issues with laquer coming off.
I agree, all they needed to do was lose or change the neck sealant.
The laquer has to go some where. But evidence shows no major issues with Wolf.
Yeah, out the chamber and onto the ground with the rest of the cartridge....
;)
I did not mean to start a Wolf bashing/Wolf support thread here. I just thought that it was a funny experience worth sharing. Wolf is what it it is. It is relatively cheap practice ammo that I do not hesitate to use in my AR. I do not have the experience that many on this forum have, but the consensuses seems to be (and my limited experience confirms) that it will not damage your gun. It might cause your gun to sort stroke witch will give you (gasp!) immediate action/transition practice!
The laquer has to go some where. But evidence shows no major issues with Wolf.
Okay, why? Why does it have to magically leave the casing? I have never heard of it doing so and never seen it do so and even seen a multitude of tests PROVING that it does not do so.
If the laquer is so bad, I don't know HOW these people can shoot M855 and M193, all that tar on the bullet being pushed down the barrel must wreak havoc on the gas-system right?
You got to be kidding me! Sounds like a little too much time on somebody's hands to dream that malfunction up. Some serious wolf haters out there. And as someone else posted, backwards thinking on the plumbing.
The biggest pain I see is the primer sealant and the buildup under the extractor. No experienced malfuntion, just a gummy buildup to cleanup after.
My guess is that it would burn if any get off the cartridge. Even then, the cartridge is pressured expanded to the chamber wall. Not much could come off, survive not being burned, then make it to the gas tube. If it does, I would bet that it is more carbon than lacquer.
I've never had a problem but never started to shoot Wolf in my ARs until the last couple of years.
Some serious wolf haters out there.
I hear ya on that one. There are a couple of guys I shoot with regularly that constantly put down wolf and pretty much everything that they dont use. One of them scoffed at the amount that I paid for my new Stag back up rifle ($799), and then gave me a whole ration of shit for paying $250 out the door for a 1k case of wolf black box. But he is the same guy who paid about $130-140 (I forget the exact amount) for a battle pack of SS109, when at the same show I bought three battle packs of Privi 55gr for $60 each and he proceed to tell me I "got robbed".
-DM-
decodeddiesel
03-24-08, 10:08
I did not mean to start a Wolf bashing/Wolf support thread here. I just thought that it was a funny experience worth sharing. Wolf is what it it is. It is relatively cheap practice ammo that I do not hesitate to use in my AR. I do not have the experience that many on this forum have, but the consensuses seems to be (and my limited experience confirms) that it will not damage your gun. It might cause your gun to sort stroke witch will give you (gasp!) immediate action/transition practice!
Amen Brother. I hear you, still a lot of mixed opinions on this forum about it. I can say though if I can't get a hold of PRVI M193 I shoot Wolf, especially if I am doing drills at close ranges where accuracy isn't important. Even with that said my LMT will hold 2 MOA with Wolf all day long. The only caveat is I have to do my part and give her a good cleaning when I get home.
Alaskapopo
03-28-08, 00:51
Much prefer the laquer stuff to the new "polymer coated" stuff.
No issues with laquer coming off.
I have seen cases welded in the chamber due to that laquer crap from Wolf. I won't let any of our guys shoot it in department rifles anymore. Stay far far away from Wolf ammo.
Pat
Stuck cases are definitely a problem with Wolf ammo. I don't know if it has anything to do with Lacquer or not though.
Even Patrick Sweeney's write up of that STAG gun/Wolf combo sited this problem. He shot a contractors class of some kind and admited that he needed to clear the chamber if there was going to be a lull in the shooting... otherwise he'd get rounds sticking.
Hhhmmmm...Guess I should have done some more research. Now I really will be staying away from it. I have never had or witnessed first hand problems with stuck cases in thousands of rounds. Like everyone says, my handful of guns is not a statistical study. :)
SGT D USMC
03-30-08, 03:34
Shoot wolf-------------------- in your ak
Steve in PA
03-30-08, 08:48
Put 60rds of Wolf polymer MC through my Bushmaster the other day. Zero problems or issues. The rifle is the 16" Patrolman's M4 and the target was shot at about 75 paces off the roof of my cruiser. Ammo was more accurate than Federal AE.
The best line I've seen so far is; "If your rifle won't shoot Wolf, put a skirt on it and stand it in the corner".
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d159/Steve_in_PA/Targets/0329080923.jpg
Flyers were called by me.
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d159/Steve_in_PA/Targets/0329080923b.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d159/Steve_in_PA/Targets/0329080924a.jpg
My new Sabre short-stroked every 3rd round. This was at about the 50 round count. After I got 150 rounds through it, I fired 15 rounds of Wolf (55gr Military classic) and it only failed to lock the bolt back. After another 100 or so rounds, I am betting it will run like a champ. It is a 20" rifle btw. Never had a casing stick, but I only ran one box through it. I belive if you shoot 1 brass round for every 5-8 Wolf rounds, it keeps the carbon build-up out of the chamber and you should be G2G. Just a thought for those who get sticky chambers from it after a bit of shooting it.
I have seen cases welded in the chamber due to that laquer crap from Wolf. I won't let any of our guys shoot it in department rifles anymore. Stay far far away from Wolf ammo.
Pat
Were these rifles chambered for 5.56 or .223? I only ask because I have seen 3 rifles fail with Wolf at my local range and all 3 were chambered for .223. The case dimensions of Wolf are similar to 5.56...even though they are labeled as .223.
Steve in PA
04-04-08, 18:16
A few days ago I went and shot 30-rounds of brass cased ammo to warm things up. I then shot 30-rounds of Wolf polymer MC........then another 30-rounds of brass cased ammo.
Then rifle never failed. The second round of brass looked just like the first round of brass, no undue dirt or carbon build up.
The old laquer covered ammo may have caused problems, but so far I haven't found a problem with the newer polymer covered ammo.
Alaskapopo
04-04-08, 20:44
Were these rifles chambered for 5.56 or .223? I only ask because I have seen 3 rifles fail with Wolf at my local range and all 3 were chambered for .223. The case dimensions of Wolf are similar to 5.56...even though they are labeled as .223.
The guns were 5.56.
Pat
Put 60rds of Wolf polymer MC through my Bushmaster the other day. Zero problems or issues. The rifle is the 16" Patrolman's M4 and the target was shot at about 75 paces off the roof of my cruiser. Ammo was more accurate than Federal AE.
The best line I've seen so far is; "If your rifle won't shoot Wolf, put a skirt on it and stand it in the corner".
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d159/Steve_in_PA/Targets/0329080923.jpg
Flyers were called by me.
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d159/Steve_in_PA/Targets/0329080923b.jpg
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d159/Steve_in_PA/Targets/0329080924a.jpg
We have an old saying back home (OPTIONS VARY ) I've seen problems with lacquered wolf in ARs. Never shot any in my gun so i cant say one way or the other, But have put many a round down range of wolf polymer through my M4 w/ 0 problems. But no matter how tired I am or late it is first thing when i get back to the house it gets a full mil.inspection style type cleaning. It was beat into me as a young hunter growing up and for twenty years with Fifth Group. That is your key to a dependable weapon . Learned it, loved it, lived it. And still do 56 years later. You take care of your weapon and it will take you home. s/f.
I don't shoot Wolf at all for a variety of reasons. I had two extreme failures in both my Colt and my HK with the early stuff, (one requiring a gunsmith to clear), so once I get stung - I stay stung. I also don't judge anyone, but personally, I try very hard not to send my money to Russia - they are not our friends. I do not however buy the hype about the coating - I think it's more what they seal it with and the properties of steel. Try this test: Grab yourself an empty Wolf cartridge, a stopwatch, something to hold it with and a blowtorch. Report back to us how log it takes you to melt off the coating, (look for a little puddle) - hint: you won't find one....
RogerinTPA
08-03-08, 10:26
I think all the fear of stuck cases has to do with improper cleaning of the chamber. I finally got a stuck case yesterday after shooting over 4K rounds of Wolf of all types in this particular weapon since buying it last Jun. Checking my shooting log, I hadn't clean this weapon in over 2500 rounds, just lubed and shoot. On inspecting the stuck case, it had all kinds of carbon super glued (More like melted) to the case. After cleaning only the chamber, it ran like a champ. FYI, I was curious on how many rounds would it take to get a malfunction on this Colt/Sabre middy. First one in over 4K rounds and 2 cleanings.
Hmmmm...I've used the old lacquered and newer polymer coated Wolf for about the last 5 years or so in both my AK's and my Bushmaster and never had any problems. I've even used the Brown Bear and that's lacquer coated too.
Blackwater
08-16-08, 08:50
Put 60rds of Wolf polymer MC through my Bushmaster the other day. Zero problems or issues. [/IMG]
Now go put 600 rounds through it in a day and tell us how it worked out for you.
Sure it works real well, then again, the additional time I spend cleaning the weapon afterwards make the cost differential disappear in a hurry.
Nice shooting though. :D
Yep, biggest problem isn't the lacquer or polymer coatings, it's increased chamber fouling from the steel cases not sealing as well as brass when fired. A good chamber scrub as mentioned earlier and you should be gtg.
Tomac
decodeddiesel
08-16-08, 11:33
Now go put 600 rounds through it in a day and tell us how it worked out for you.
Sure it works real well, then again, the additional time I spend cleaning the weapon afterwards make the cost differential disappear in a hurry.
Nice shooting though. :D
Try the lacquer coated Brown Bear or Barnaul, it is cleaner than the poly coated Wolf I have found.
Try the lacquer coated Brown Bear or Barnaul, it is cleaner than the poly coated Wolf I have found.
The zinc-coated Silver Bear is supposed to be even better.
Tomac
decodeddiesel
08-16-08, 11:49
The zinc-coated Silver Bear is supposed to be even better.
Tomac
I have tried the Silver Bear too, and it is a little cleaner/more accurate than the poly Wolf (Tula produced), but I found the lacquer coated Barnaul produced ammo to be the cleanest. I think this is the reason why Hornady used it for their practice TAP. Of course YMMV.
dialM4murder
08-23-08, 18:06
Stuck cases are definitely a problem with Wolf ammo. I don't know if it has anything to do with Lacquer or not though.
Even Patrick Sweeney's write up of that STAG gun/Wolf combo sited this problem. He shot a contractors class of some kind and admited that he needed to clear the chamber if there was going to be a lull in the shooting... otherwise he'd get rounds sticking.
Yeah I have that magazine. Still pretty impressive though he shot a whole course with a ton of wolf.
Alaskapopo
08-23-08, 19:37
I think all the fear of stuck cases has to do with improper cleaning of the chamber. I finally got a stuck case yesterday after shooting over 4K rounds of Wolf of all types in this particular weapon since buying it last Jun. Checking my shooting log, I hadn't clean this weapon in over 2500 rounds, just lubed and shoot. On inspecting the stuck case, it had all kinds of carbon super glued (More like melted) to the case. After cleaning only the chamber, it ran like a champ. FYI, I was curious on how many rounds would it take to get a malfunction on this Colt/Sabre middy. First one in over 4K rounds and 2 cleanings.
I have to disagree if the rifle is cleaned however the owner was taught and it works with brass ammo but craps out with wolf. I would look to the ammo and not the cleaning method.
Pat
RogerinTPA
08-27-08, 20:29
Its great to disagree, but that's not what was stated. It's my FIRST malfunction in over 4k rounds of shooting Wolf almost exclusively on this weapon, a 16" Middy (one of two ARs that I own). When I first put is together, I shot 1K of brass before starting with Wolf ammo for economical reasons. Totally round count on this weapon is around 5k, and this is the first malfunction due to ammo.:)
"I finally got a stuck case yesterday after shooting over 4K rounds of Wolf of all types in this particular weapon since buying it last Jun. Checking my shooting log, I hadn't clean this weapon in over 2500 rounds, just lubed and shoot"
I have to disagree if the rifle is cleaned however the owner was taught and it works with brass ammo but craps out with wolf. I would look to the ammo and not the cleaning method.
Pat
I know guys who shoot thousands of rounds through transferable M16's with no problems
The vast majority of people that own NFA weapons have no clue about their weapon or what they are doing.
Out of various ARs that I use there are two weapons that are used for training & practice only. These two training weapons get a steady diet of only steel cased Wolf ammo. Over the years thousands of rounds have been sent down range in practice & training classes. They're run hard, receive minimal cleaning & liberal amounts of lube. The gas tubes have never been cleaned. So far there have been no ammo related malfunctions. Both barrels are marked 5.56 NATO, but a chamber reamer proved otherwise & brought them into spec.
Littlelebowski
09-06-08, 15:11
I put a half case of Wolf and a mixed bag of various brass through my weapon in one day. No problems. I will admit that gotm4 hit it with Ned Christiansen's chamber reamer but now the Sabre middy runs like a champ.
QuickStrike
09-06-08, 15:56
I try not to run it through my 6920. Will run anything through my beater Stag AR though.
Has anyone tried barnaul's nickel cased ammo? Seems to run okay in my piston AR (only 250 rounds so far).
decodeddiesel
09-06-08, 16:29
I try not to run it through my 6920. Will run anything through my beater Stag AR though.
Has anyone tried barnaul's nickel cased ammo? Seems to run okay in my piston AR (only 250 rounds so far).
Are you talking about Silver Bear? If so it is zinc coated steel and not nickel. Perhaps there's a Barnaul I am not familiar with :confused:
QuickStrike
09-07-08, 05:00
Are you talking about Silver Bear? If so it is zinc coated steel and not nickel. Perhaps there's a Barnaul I am not familiar with :confused:
http://ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/product_info.php?pName=500rds-223-barnaul-nickel-55gr-fmj-ammo&cName=223-556-fmj-ammo
Reputed to be better than wolf and no lacquer so I tried some. Pretty good so far I guess at about 250 rounds...
decodeddiesel
09-07-08, 11:25
Yeah it's Silver Bear, even if the package doesn't specifically say so. I have no idea why Ammo To Go wrote on their site that it's nickel plated. If you click on the picture you can clearly see that it's printed as zinc coated on the box. Zinc coating is not the same thing as nickel. I would guess it's some uninformed sales people who have no idea what they're talking about trying to insert some kind of mumbo jumbo on a product to make it sound more appealing.
The fact of the matter is Silver Bear really is no better or no worse than the other Ammo mentioned here. I have personally seen a Silver Bear case stick in my friends S&W MP15 which is normally 100% reliable. Conversely when chrono'ing Silver Bear is VERY consistent and pretty hot, especially compared to Wolf. It also seems to be pretty accurate out of my LMT. However, I really do think you gain a bit of reliability and clean operation with the lacquer coating you see on the Barnaul/Brown Bear. I mean let's not forget the Russians put it on there for a reason, and I realize their indigenous rounds use a tapered case, but even still they put it there for a reason. I can tell you that when I fire Lacquered case ammo from my AK-101 I get a beautiful, consistent ejection pattern and it really flings them out of there!! Now when I use Poly Wolf or Silver Bear the ejection is erratic and not nearly as positive. I don't know why, but it is definitely a notable phenomenon.
As far as it not beign marked "Silver Bear" specifically, often Barnaul will do this for whatever reason with their ammo. I have some 62gr Barnaul sitting here that is the exact same thing as the 62gr Brown Bear I have sitting here with a slightly different box. Why? Who knows...Russians are odd ducks.
QuickStrike
09-07-08, 16:01
OH! Didn't read the box. It DOES say zinc coated on there. :o
Ah well, if it's not that much better than wolf and slightly more expensive, I'll just get wolf next time.
On a similar but different note...
I have shot a bit of Wolf through my 1911. I'd put 200-300 rounds through in a training session so I probably had 600 rounds of Wolf through this pistol at this point... Last trip to the range, I pulled the pistol out, dropped the empty mag out, pulled the slide back far enough to verify the chamber was empty, then inserted a full mag. When I racked the slide, the round failed to chamber. When I cleared the malfunction I looked down into the chamber and my firing pin was sticking out a 1/2" or so and was now bent up...
Wolf ammo has enamel around the primer to seal it, which I find is always smeared on the breech face after several hundred rounds. What I figure happened is the last time at the range, after shooting was complete, I dry-fired the pistol before storing (as I always do). Since there's a whole lot of oompfh behind the hammer striking the firing pin, I figure the pin got stuck sticking out due to the enamel that must have worked through the firing pin hole from the primer area.
The 1911 manufacturer paid shipping both ways, inspected the slide and found no further damage, but said there was a hard, crusty material inside the firing pin channel that had to be scraped out, and it wasn't carbon build-up. When I told him I had been using Wolf ammo, he said he'd never heard of this happening, but did tell me Wolf will cut the life of a 1911 extractor in half. He replaced the firing pin at no charge, but I also had him supply another tuned extractor, just to have a spare.
I periodically clean the firing pin hole with a pipe cleaner, but had never done a hard scrub, especially on the inside of the firing pin channel. Needless to say, I'm probably not going to shoot any more Wolf through my 1911 (mainly due to extractor wear) but I still do through my M4s (drop in extractor) and M1As (robust extractor)... I will just ensure I clean them a bit more thoroughly...
YMMV...
RogerinTPA
09-07-08, 16:25
That's quite a malfunction. Never heard that one before, but then again, I don't have a 1911 either. I've shot 3K rounds of .45 Wolf through my M&P.45. Not one malfunction. They do have harder primers and have experiences a few light primer strikes on the 9mm classic, but that was due to the striker on the weapon. I haven't had but one malfunction after 4K+ rounds shooting mostly Wolf, Barnaul (brown and silver bear) through my Sabre middy and none through my Colt 6920 (5K+ rounds) shooting brass of all kinds(Guat, XM193, Privi M193, Q3131, S&B, PMC Bronze), as well as 2K of Wolf and Barnaul of all kinds. I even mixed several brands of brass and steel cased ammo in 5 mags a while back to try to get the Colt to malfunction doing double and triple taps as fast as i could. It ran through all mags perfectly and the ammo worked as advertised.
On a similar but different note...
I have shot a bit of Wolf through my 1911. I'd put 200-300 rounds through in a training session so I probably had 600 rounds of Wolf through this pistol at this point... Last trip to the range, I pulled the pistol out, dropped the empty mag out, pulled the slide back far enough to verify the chamber was empty, then inserted a full mag. When I racked the slide, the round failed to chamber. When I cleared the malfunction I looked down into the chamber and my firing pin was sticking out a 1/2" or so and was now bent up...
Wolf ammo has enamel around the primer to seal it, which I find is always smeared on the breech face after several hundred rounds. What I figure happened is the last time at the range, after shooting was complete, I dry-fired the pistol before storing (as I always do). Since there's a whole lot of oompfh behind the hammer striking the firing pin, I figure the pin got stuck sticking out due to the enamel that must have worked through the firing pin hole from the primer area.
The 1911 manufacturer paid shipping both ways, inspected the slide and found no further damage, but said there was a hard, crusty material inside the firing pin channel that had to be scraped out, and it wasn't carbon build-up. When I told him I had been using Wolf ammo, he said he'd never heard of this happening, but did tell me Wolf will cut the life of a 1911 extractor in half. He replaced the firing pin at no charge, but I also had him supply another tuned extractor, just to have a spare.
I periodically clean the firing pin hole with a pipe cleaner, but had never done a hard scrub, especially on the inside of the firing pin channel. Needless to say, I'm probably not going to shoot any more Wolf through my 1911 (mainly due to extractor wear) but I still do through my M4s (drop in extractor) and M1As (robust extractor)... I will just ensure I clean them a bit more thoroughly...
YMMV...
If it hadn't happened to me, I would not have guessed it could happen... And because my firing pin was stuck stiking out, and I had the slide locked back inspecting it, the firing pin stop fell off of the back of the slide... Fortunately I saw something fall and was able to find it in the sand... Bad day at the range as the only other pistol I took to the range was a .22LR...
The sealant you're seeing on the case head is lacquer & has been in common usage as a primer sealant for decades on many different brands of ammo. This is not unique to Wolf. Steel cases are harder on extractors than brass, but extractors are cheap to replace compared to the cost of ammo today. The steel used in Wolf isn't all that hard; it's just a soft grade of steel.
True, extractors are cheap, but 1911 extractors have to be tuned to the gun, and personally, I'm not a gunsmith so I have to pay to have them tuned to the gun. I'll probably stick with brass for my 1911s.
All other extractors (Glock and M4) are drop in. That said, I would check the M4 extractor over very well every time the gun is cleaned to check for wear and cracking. If my M4 was a duty rifle, I would probably have a spare extractor or bolt that I used for duty versus training with wolf. Just my twin Lincolns...
I have been using Wolf since the laquer days and shoot many more than a lot of folks I know that shoot AR's, and have yet to have a problem with Wolf.
I even use it in my AK's, Glocks, Kel-Tec's, Springfields, anything I have that Wolf makes in that claiber and have had malfunctions from Win white boc & Ga Arms "canned heat" , yet never had an issue with Wolf.
I don't pay $300 for Blue Jeans, $200 for Sneakers or drive a Lexus, I'm a Kia happy driver. So, basically it all comes down to brand name affliction, if you've got it, its like crack as long as your income supports the habit, personally I'd rather have the 2,000 rounds of Wolf for the same $ amount those afflicted will pay for 1,000 say S&B or dare to mention Black Hills, the Rolex of 223 ammo.
Call me cheap but don't get downrange when you are doing it, or the Wolf might bite.:D
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