View Full Version : 10.5 M4 vs MP5 SD
I work in a city of approx 1 million and am assigned to a full time Tac Team. We have both MP5-SDs no optic and Colt 10.5s in our armory. The Colts can be suppressed with supplied Gemtechs that are approx 6 in long and not very quite. The Colt is our primary weapon and gets 99% of our training time.
I am pro using the 10.5 M4s for everything. I'm also not very big on the suppressor as the whole team always wear's ear pro on operations. Further, I grew up hunting without ear pro and I hear fine. I also find the extra 6 inches pita working in houses and vehicles.
Question: Considering the above, would the MP5-SD be your choice for Bus, Plain, Train Assaults? I am in the minority favoring the 10.5 M4. I am in favor of the M4s lethality, accuarcy, and familiarity. Others favor the MP5-SD for its compactness,, limited recoil, and quietness.
Thanks for your responses. I appreciate your responses but if you only carry a long gun online please mention this.
mkmckinley
04-04-13, 19:43
I would use what you train with 99% of the time.
I've done a limited amount of training with an MP5 and while I can appreciate its qualities I'm nowhere near as competent/proficient with it as I am an M4. With Mk-18s getting issued I can't think of many scenarios where I'd prefer the MP5, even more so considering hitting a noncombatant is unacceptable. Also I'm not the expert on the subject but my understanding is that with proper loads a 5.56 is less likely to over penetrate a target than a hot 9mm. If your team is wearing Peltors then the I don't see why sound signature would matter that much for your team.
The MP5SD is not smaller or lighter than a 10.5 and has poor wounding potential. It also has its own manual of arms. I find the idea of switching depending on the target to be foolish. I'd rather use a pistol for confined space work.
Failure2Stop
04-04-13, 20:12
I'd take the M4
Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.
Thanks for the responses. Keep the coming. If you feel strongly one way or the other shoot me your background as policy will likely develop from this.
I'm not LE, but I've worked with the MP5 SD. It's a cool gun, but it is pistol caliber. I would much rather use an M4 than an MP5. If I couldn't get an M4 into a confined space, I'd transition to a pistol. The scenarios you described could spill out doors, where an MP5 would seem inadequate to me.
Do your M4's have optics?
Failure2Stop
04-04-13, 21:04
Thanks for the responses. Keep the coming. If you feel strongly one way or the other shoot me your background as policy will likely develop from this.
I would recommend that you seek out appropriate individuals and communicate with them directly rather than leaving it open to the internet.
Look for those with experience on both platforms that have experience in domestic LE.
Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.
I would recommend that you seek out appropriate individuals and communicate with them directly rather than leaving it open to the internet.
Look for those with experience on both platforms that have experience in domestic LE.
Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.
I have no idea how much experience you have with "appropriate indiduals" but sometimes these folks choose a 45 because it has stopping power and a 1911 because its a specialist pistol. I would like s
Someone to tell me that there is something out there better than a short M4 and why. Also, this transition to pistol idea comes up often and I don't see the point. I am more accurate with an M4 and have much better weapons retention.
OP- LE, with experience on both M4 types and the MP5SD specifically. I would choose the former over the latter for the reasons one chooses 5.56 over pistol calibers (many already mentioned). Existing training time (you quote 99%), maintenance/spares considerations. I suspect many choosing the MP5 family do so for the novelty more than any other reason.
I would recommend that you seek out appropriate individuals and communicate with them directly rather than leaving it open to the internet. Look for those with experience on both platforms that have experience in domestic LE.
Good advice.
There were/are some NTOA references on this topic specifically.
Personally i'd take the M4/Mk18 every time. The manipulation of controls IMO is easier and faster, and the accessories and mounting options are so much more diverse.
Someone to tell me that there is something out there better than a short M4 and why. Also, this transition to pistol idea comes up often and I don't see the point. I am more accurate with an M4 and have much better weapons retention.
The idea comes up with regard to confined spaces. An SD MP5 and a MK18 are similar in size and the MP5 is likely going to be heavier. If one isn't small enough neither is the other.
I'm nobody. I have some shooting class experience, some time behind both guns on a square range and three days of force on force stuff in a team environment with SWAT team types in an open enrollment class. But I'm not an idiot. I can tell you with certainty that it would take a good reason for me to try and keep a whole team qualified on two completely separate weapons systems. I'm not seeing that here. If you really need 9mms, consider an AR. Or have guys who always use the MP5. The merits of each weapon are probably a lot less important than each man having mastery of his weapon.
Also consider that the MP5s have .380 ballistics, or near to it, and that the round can't always pierce laminated glass like a windshield.
Also, this transition to pistol idea comes up often and I don't see the point. I am more accurate with an M4 and have much better weapons retention.
If you had to crawl into an attic (the kind without a drop down ladder) or similar confined entryway that requires crawling and climbing, you don't think a pistol may be advantageous for that task?
Transition back as needed.
Also consider that the MP5s have .380 ballistics...
IIRC that's only on the SDs if you're shooting sub-sonics through it, as the barrel is already ported.
LE, major metro PD. Full time unit, no collateral duties. Old school HK trained fella. We carried the MP5SD as an entry and HK33 as a perimeter set up. About 11 years ago we went the way of the M4A1 as a dual role weapon and now have 10.5's on them. I still have the MP5SD and still teach the platform. I no longer deploy with the MP5SD and have not done so in many years. It is a great subgun but not deploying it even though I have it pretty much sums it up for me.
As for developing policy, as I do that quite a bit, I suggest getting information from as many PD's as possible. Preferable from those with like units, sizes, roles, responsibilities. It is also a big plus to hit up those within your own Circuit, but not a necessity. Also hit up tactical organizations. I always suggest the NTOA site, as you might hit some good contacts, but quite honestly that site has been more than a bit slow for a few years. I am good about sharing info if people hit me up on the NTOA forum as verification is pretty much done in order to access the forum. Username - SSDSurf
I agree with you as far as attics etc... I was talking about transitioning to pistol for linear assaults which is our current policy.
If you had to crawl into an attic (the kind without a drop down ladder) or similar confined entryway that requires crawling and climbing, you don't think a pistol may be advantageous for that task?
Transition back as needed.
Thanks for the info.
LE, major metro PD. Full time unit, no collateral duties. Old school HK trained fella. We carried the MP5SD as an entry and HK33 as a perimeter set up. About 11 years ago we went the way of the M4A1 as a dual role weapon and now have 10.5's on them. I still have the MP5SD and still teach the platform. I no longer deploy with the MP5SD and have not done so in many years. It is a great subgun but not deploying it even though I have it pretty much sums it up for me.
As for developing policy, as I do that quite a bit, I suggest getting information from as many PD's as possible. Preferable from those with like units, sizes, roles, responsibilities. It is also a big plus to hit up those within your own Circuit, but not a necessity. Also hit up tactical organizations. I always suggest the NTOA site, as you might hit some good contacts, but quite honestly that site has been more than a bit slow for a few years. I am good about sharing info if people hit me up on the NTOA forum as verification is pretty much done in order to access the forum. Username - SSDSurf
Failure2Stop
04-05-13, 07:59
I have no idea how much experience you have with "appropriate indiduals" but sometimes these folks choose a 45 because it has stopping power and a 1911 because its a specialist pistol. I would like s
I would not consider someone that chooses "a 45 because it has stopping power and a 1911 because its a specialist pistol." to be an "appropriate individual", but rather guys like Surf.
I have time on both systems, but not being domestic LE, I would rather not make too strong a correlation between my use and your use.
If the question is simply; is it worth it to maintain skillset on both weapons, I would say a definitive; maybe. :happy:
26 years LE experience, 12 on a tactical team, worked for HK International Training Division for 10 years. While I certainly have a soft spot for the MP5 platform the 10 1/2 " M4 would be my choice.
There are several reasons (most already mentioned), terminal ballistics, familiarity with the platform since most of your training is on M4, and you have cans for the M4s if needed.
The only reason I can see for keeping the MP5SD in the training cycle would be if you were using 14 1/2" or 16" M4s (then there would be a more considerable size difference), or if you didn't have cans for the M4s. I would still keep one or two SDs in inventory for those times when you might need a really quiet gun since the M4s even with a can are still loud in certain conditions. (Think shooting out lights, tires etc, etc.)
Hope this helps. Also as Surf mentioned if you are a member of NTOA check out their info sharing section in their forum. I'm no longer a member but I recall they had several studies and posts in regards to this matter.
Been doing LE 30 years- been doing SWAT 26 of that. Been assigned Colt SMG, Beretta m12, Steyr 81 & MP5...got off of 9mm SWAT guns a while back. I consider the AR to be heads above the 9mm SMG (any of them) for all of the reasons mentioned.
I know of at least two incidents locally where rounds were fired inside and did not hit the suspect. The 9mm rounds exited the structure and into the perimeter (no injuries, but tense moments). The 5.56mm rounds were contained. The "over-penetration" of rifle rounds is a myth that continues for a lot of reasons.
That said, we have MP5's (SD and standard) still on the team. I have spare MP5's in the safe, no spare AR's. Adding a longer barrel and a stock to a handgun, regardless of its cool factor, does nothing to improve its performance. Our AR's are Colt/LMT 10.5" uppers using Gemtech cans.
8 years LE, never a member of our agencies full time team, several years doing part time tac work while on patrol.
So long as your shorty M4's run well, and you guys have appropriate ammunition for them (not green tip, or other "ball" ammo) I'd go with them if I can fit a long gun into the situation. Getting suppressors that actually suppress would be high on my wish list for those M4's. On the off chance you have reliability issues with your rifles, or are required to run ball ammo, I'd personally choose the MP5. Reliability is paramount, and depending on the FMJ ammo you're stuck with it may fail to function properly somewhere past 25-50 yds. A good hot 9mm round will of course out reach this.
The MP5 is a heck of a subgun, but still a subgun. For the SD's I can see using it for when you really need to be quiet, or a few other specialist situations.
So overall if you've got good 5.56 ammo, and the rifles run, that'd be my choice.
-Jenrick
"I grew up hunting without ear pro and I hear fine. I also find the extra 6 inches pita working in houses and vehicles."
A huge difference between firing said weapon in the great outdoors versus in a 10"X10" room of in a cinder block stairwell. Whether a SBR M4 and a MP5 (we have both) I'd kill to have a can on either, ear pro or not. As much as I prefer the manual of arms, ergos, and compact size of the MP5, the overall utility of the 5.56 is tough to beat by comparison. Now, put an HK53A3 with an RDS in my hands and we're talking a whole new story.
Check with the Los Angeles Co Sheriff's SEB unit. One of my buddies works on the SWAT team and told me their guys carry the MP5's almost exclusively for indoor work and anything short of rifle distances. But, these aren't the SD's.
I have 18 years in LE and have trained with both. I would prefer the MP5 myself for entry work too...and in particular the SD. I like the feel and balance of it, the minimal report, and for whatever reason, I can get it on target faster than anything else. And that's without an optic too.
IIRC that's only on the SDs if you're shooting sub-sonics through it, as the barrel is already ported.
IIRC it shoots 115s at about a thousand feet per second. I'm told it doesn't always make it through windshield glass. Maybe a little faster than a .380 but somewhat short of 9mm handgun ballistics.
This would be a much better conversation if it was a comparison of the Mk18 to a standard MP5, the latter being significantly shorter and lighter than the SD.
What I'm getting at is that you'd have to have a significant advantage from the SD in order to justify keeping current with both. If I NEEDED a 9mm to go with an M4 I'd get a Colt, for obvious reasons.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.