View Full Version : Upgrading Standard Issue M4s?
flyfishnevada
04-06-13, 13:38
I'm asking this out of curiosity. I guess standard issue M4s have a lot of the accessories we all covet in place or am I wrong? Collapsible stock, sights, rails, etc. But I've seen plenty with FDE furniture, different sights, PMAGS, all kinds of what look like non-standard issue accessories.
Where does that stuff come from? Does the the military or do specific units provide options? Do they provide the gear for sale at the exchanges? Or do individual soldiers, Marines, etc. purchase the gear online or through family and have it shipped?
It depends on what it is.
They all get it from Grant. :p
I'd say all of the above. There were plenty of commercial of the shelf purchases over the past decade by various units as well as the rapid fielding initiative. Some troops purchased their own accessories. There were wide purchases of the PMAG by numerous units. There are also differences between the M4/M4A1 fielded by the regular Army (Modular Weapons System) and the M4A1 (SOPMOD) fielded by SOCOM units (such as the use of the free float Daniel Defense RIS II as part of SOPMOD Block II accessories).
Depends on the service, unit, and what the TOA will let you have.
VADER, DARTH
04-07-13, 01:08
Branch rules differ, I can speak to the Marines anyway, we wern't allowed anything on our weapons that was not issued by the corps and had a NSN. So basically RCO, maybe IR laser and in some cases a fore grip. No stocks, pistolgrips, rail covers etc.
Wolverine6G
04-07-13, 05:20
all depends on your unit. check with your armorer first. My old Army unit some guys got bipods and different slings. I was a 240B gunner so never really wanted to "upgrade" my m4.
Wolverine6G
04-07-13, 05:32
all depends on your unit. check with your armorer first. My old unit some guys got bipods and different slings. I was a 240B gunner so never really wanted to "upgrade" my m4.
in my unit as long as it had a NSN we were allowed to use it.
Corp of engrs here, our unit armorer is a dick, nothing can be used.
Rail covers, mags, fancy slings, nada.
Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk 2
Failure2Stop
04-07-13, 11:24
The armorer doesn't play a role in telling individuals what they can our cannot use, that's up to the unit commander.
Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.
flyfishnevada
04-07-13, 12:04
Interesting. I understand the desire to not let individuals use stuff that's not approved or has an NSN. Keeps the cheap untested Chinese knockoffs and airsoft gear off the battlefield where it's likely to fail and probably at the worst possible moment.
I didn't realize it varied so much. I know family/friends send stuff and I'm sure now and then a care package shows up full of PMAGS or whatnot (or maybe that never happens). Do SF get more leeway to customize weapons? Seems ever time I see SF, their rifles are more tricked out than usual or does that vary too?
SOF units can draw from a greater variety of SOPMOD approved accessories. NSWC Crane manages the SOPMOD program for SOCOM. Hence there are different, parallel supply pipelines for SOF and conventional forces. I think it is also fair to assume that SOF commanders give their personnel more leeway than most conventional units.
I don't know what unit you guys run here but even on my old sustainment unit and administrative unit or IT unit..the unit commander does have final say but he prefers to listen to the unit armorer.
In the end, for liability reasons, it's best to follow his advice.
My commander said " so we will or somehow end up in some kind of article UCMJ whatever......is that gimmick you got will back you up at the hearing or not?"
go call your friend Cost and Haley, sonny and crockett and also your fancy Ninja friend Vickers...get back to me when they will happily come to your hearing for using unauthorized crap.
that is a quote and unquote from my unit commander.
scoutfsu99
04-07-13, 20:43
I think its funny that that Commander will listen to the broke dick/ unwanted guy/ unlucky good dude (rare) that gets stuck as a unit armorer.
Filling out 2062's? Check, they can do that.
Knocking out a cyclical? Sure, why not.
Knowing the weapon systems, tricks of the trade, and generally being on point with weapons? L-O-L:rolleyes:
Risk adverse environment and mentalities. The same shit that convinces these SME's that paint, stocks, VFG's, etc will cause a weapon to fail. The same shit that loads us down with unnecessary PPE, rules, regs, and "suggestions"........yet they think the PT belt and elbow/knee pads are the best things since sliced ****ing bread.:rolleyes:
I don't know what unit you guys run here but even on my old sustainment unit and administrative unit or IT unit..the unit commander does have final say but he prefers to listen to the unit armorer.
In the end, for liability reasons, it's best to follow his advice.
My commander said " so we will or somehow end up in some kind of article UCMJ whatever......is that gimmick you got will back you up at the hearing or not?"
go call your friend Cost and Haley, sonny and crockett and also your fancy Ninja friend Vickers...get back to me when they will happily come to your hearing for using unauthorized crap.
that is a quote and unquote from my unit commander.
There is so much I want to address in your post, but I will limit myself. Why would anyone consider UCMJ for "unauthorized crap"? We're talking sling, grips, stocks and such, not doing something that would damage the weapon, right?
I can't imagine listening to an armorer over all of the NCO's and officers in a unit.
Failure2Stop
04-07-13, 23:12
There is so much I want to address in your post, but I will limit myself. Why would anyone consider UCMJ for "unauthorized crap"? We're talking sling, grips, stocks and such, not doing something that would damage the weapon, right?
I can't imagine listening to an armorer over all of the NCO's and officers in a unit.
Unauthorized modification to an issued weapon can land one in a world of hurt. For every switched on dude that knows his gear inside and out there are three hundred that think they do, but are wrong. In the end, with every single unit that falls under the DoD, it is the unit commander (generally at the battalion level) that makes the call on what can and cannot be changed/upgraded/removed/supplemented on his weapons. He takes or ignores the advice of those under him to make that call, depending on what his superiors have given him leeway on.
Generally speaking, things like magazines, fore grips, rail covers, and slings can generally be upgraded. Sometimes even these things will not be permitted (see the USMC and the IAR/Pmag conundrum).
Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.
not to be a d**k, , but this sounds like a fishing trip gone wrong without a quick trip with the search button. I am new to this sight per say, but read/learn on daily basis. not to put you down, but weary of posting. if you are offended, i appoligize.
Unauthorized modification to an issued weapon can land one in a world of hurt. For every switched on dude that knows his gear inside and out there are three hundred that think they do, but are wrong. In the end, with every single unit that falls under the DoD, it is the unit commander (generally at the battalion level) that makes the call on what can and cannot be changed/upgraded/removed/supplemented on his weapons. He takes or ignores the advice of those under him to make that call, depending on what his superiors have given him leeway on.
Generally speaking, things like magazines, fore grips, rail covers, and slings can generally be upgraded. Sometimes even these things will not be permitted (see the USMC and the IAR/Pmag conundrum).
Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.
I am all about discipline and enforcing standards. I am not suggesting that it should be a free for all in the military. I am saying there are other methods than an Article 15 to enforce policy.
ICANHITHIMMAN
04-08-13, 06:32
I was issued an M16A2 on my first trip, I tore it apart and added a 10.5" upper and added butt stocks. I got the parts from REF but it was in no way approved! I was lucky and dumb at the same time being 23 at the time and just laterally transferring over from the Navy to the Army I saw all the 10th MTN guys and SOF with M4s and was very jealous. In hind sight if I were to go back today, I would not mind the A2 as much, but for the soldiers of small stature it sure sucked!
On later deployments I was issued an M4 (bare bones). Lots of us spent our own money to buy optics, rails etc. We were issued IR weapon sights with no rails to mount them on lol.
They all get it from Grant. :p
I wish!
C4
For OPSEC, I'm not gonna go name calling okay.
If it was up to me, I'm issue everyone a HK416 or a SCAR and get it over with. Or maybe do the SOPMOD Block II setup who knows....
For all I know and care, is that I had a very unloving and uncaring CO bulldyke who followed another bulldyke...
end of story....
I'm medically retired now due to injuries sustained due to faulty equipment and listening to said bulldyke.
Biggest gist for me is suppressors....I wear hearing aids now full time in both ears after two deployments and a 40 percent loss in both ears.
For OPSEC, I'm not gonna go name calling okay.
If it was up to me, I'm issue everyone a HK416 or a SCAR and get it over with. Or maybe do the SOPMOD Block II setup who knows....
For all I know and care, is that I had a very unloving and uncaring CO bulldyke who followed another bulldyke...
end of story....
I'm medically retired now due to injuries sustained due to faulty equipment and listening to said bulldyke.
Biggest gist for me is suppressors....I wear hearing aids now full time in both ears after two deployments and a 40 percent loss in both ears.
If it sounded like my post was directed at you personally, it wasn't meant to.
The CoS of the Army said that toxic leaders are out, starting now. We will see how that turns out. I know a few of these toxic avengers and it sure would be nice to see them change their ways.
The A2 was sooooo long getting in and out of vehicles like we did all the time. So we made M4s......hehe. It was much lighter, faster and just overall better. Our company commander complained but, no one got in trouble. I was a vehicle mechanic and we had an old school E6 gun mechanic who would do it. The guys we were attached to (sf and field arty) had all kinds of cool stuff and didn't care.
Dist. Expert 26
04-08-13, 19:32
We get a pretty good of bit of leeway as far as slings and foregrips go, but that's it. We're not allowed to use any optics except our busted old RCOs, and changing out any of the operating parts is a recipe for NJP. And since the advent of the IAR, no more PMAGs either (even though the gen 3's work with it :rolleyes:)
RogerinTPA
04-08-13, 20:59
As others have stated, depends a lot on the unit commander. I used to fly to FOBs in the northern part of the country (Fenty, Salarno, Shank, Sharana, Kabul, Bamian, Meymaneh, MES, Konduz) and hit them each one on a daily or weekly basis, and was based in Bagram. I've seen some troops with weapons decked out with complete SOPMOD kits, (SOF mostly) and Pmags. I saw a lot with rails and no covers, some with VFGs, USGI mags, some with RDS, some with BUIS only, some with magnified optics, A2s with and without rails, black slings and VCAS slings, some allowed to buy Pmags from the BX, some painted, most not, etc... It definitely isn't standardized on the Army or USAF side of the house. The Marines, as a whole, were the only ones I saw with standardize kit and Pmags.
I was talking about this with my recruiter the other day, he said that some optics and rails you can get approved, but most guys buy their own and have them shipped over, he said as long as it's quality and not junk most people won't say anything.
Typos are from autocorrect, I apologize if I missed any
Dist. Expert 26
04-09-13, 14:38
I was talking about this with my recruiter the other day, he said that some optics and rails you can get approved, but most guys buy their own and have them shipped over, he said as long as it's quality and not junk most people won't say anything.
Typos are from autocorrect, I apologize if I missed any
Your recruiter sounds like he's full of it (big surprise). Can I ask what branch?
Marines, that's why I like this site, I can get real information and not just have smoke blown up my ass.
Dist. Expert 26
04-09-13, 14:44
Marines, that's why I like this site, I can get real information and not just have smoke blown up my ass.
I'm an active duty 0311, and I don't know a single person (not even guys in Recon) that are allowed to run their own optics or rails. Some of the Force Recon guys swap out their stocks, but everything else is still issued. One thing you'll learn about the Marine Corps, uniformity is the most important thing. Functionality takes a back seat.
The armorer doesn't play a role in telling individuals what they can our cannot use, that's up to the unit commander.
Typos brought to you via Tapatalk and autocorrect.
SPC Armorer would get told to beat feet...
scoutchris
04-09-13, 20:55
The most clear and concise answers came from Stubby, the ****ing civilian, and Grant.
If you're not a ****ing POG or REMF, and that includes anyone with a female in their formation, and you have a unit that actually does shit, your chain of command generally doesn't give a ****. But then again, I have never been in anything but an experienced line unit, 28 months of which were spent in COPs in Iraq.
Yes, Joe buys everything. We did get some cool shit issued in country, but it was generally rat-****ed by the people that were supposed to hand it out before it could make it to someone's kit.
scoutfsu99
04-09-13, 22:13
You'd be surprised at the amount of females attached to an infantry battalion the past few years. And Grant had two, 2, words in this thread - I wish. And he was talking about people buying shit from him
Provided you don't have an overly risk adverse CoC and you can justify/ qualify your items with legitimate knowledge/ reasons, you can get away with some things. A lot of things, unit dependent.
But some units and some people, there's no helping. Its not about the fight or winning, its about career progression.:mad: Look how many people got excited about TACOM sticking their noses into magazines, disregarding several factors. It took close to a decade for them to admit paint doesn't cause a weapon to mysteriously malfunction....and even then their "advice" was so onerous that most outright disregarded it. Not to even get started about PC's and uniforms.
scoutchris
04-09-13, 22:26
You'd be surprised at the amount of females attached to an infantry battalion the past few years. And Grant had two, 2, words in this thread - I wish. And he was talking about people buying shit from him
Provided you don't have an overly risk adverse CoC and you can justify/ qualify your items with legitimate knowledge/ reasons, you can get away with some things. A lot of things, unit dependent.
But some units and some people, there's no helping. Its not about the fight or winning, its about career progression.:mad: Look how many people got excited about TACOM sticking their noses into magazines, disregarding several factors. It took close to a decade for them to admit paint doesn't cause a weapon to mysteriously malfunction....and even then their "advice" was so onerous that most outright disregarded it. Not to even get started about PC's and uniforms.
I totally agree, Troop.
scoutfsu99
04-09-13, 22:28
The last time I was called that, I was doing bear crawls...
scoutchris
04-09-13, 22:34
In Kentucky, right?
scoutfsu99
04-09-13, 22:34
ha, one of the places, yes
scoutchris
04-09-13, 22:36
I was probably the scumbag staring down at you.
scoutfsu99
04-09-13, 22:39
If it was back in late '05, you might have been. Hotel 6/15. No worries, all good learning experiences.
I miss DADT....
I miss that immensely...for the Signal Corp and Corp of Engnrs, the bulldykes and butt****ers are coming out of the woodworks.
Now with everything slowing down, the USACE is now a punching board for those coasting to 20 yrs and those just want to survive that last 2-3 yrs nicely and smoothly.
that's just my observation from Fort Hua and other places.
William B.
04-10-13, 11:06
I'm an active duty 0311, and I don't know a single person (not even guys in Recon) that are allowed to run their own optics or rails. Some of the Force Recon guys swap out their stocks, but everything else is still issued. One thing you'll learn about the Marine Corps, uniformity is the most important thing. Functionality takes a back seat.
I was an 0311 and used a personally-owned EOTech on my SAW in 2007. I also had an 0317 friend who used a personally-owned EOTech on his M4 in 2008. I also saw Recon guys with Vltor stocks when I was on the 24th MEU in 2008. I think a lot of it depends on what unit you're in and who you're serving under, kind of like F2S said.
Dist. Expert 26
04-10-13, 17:54
I was an 0311 and used a personally-owned EOTech on my SAW in 2007. I also had an 0317 friend who used a personally-owned EOTech on his M4 in 2008. I also saw Recon guys with Vltor stocks when I was on the 24th MEU in 2008. I think a lot of it depends on what unit you're in and who you're serving under, kind of like F2S said.
Your unit must have been a lot more lenient than mine then, we would get ran up the flagpole for running our own optics. The Marine Corps is changing though, and not for the better.
The Ground Truth
04-10-13, 18:25
Many Soldiers buy their own upgrades for their weapons if their command allows it. In the 101st (06-09), we were allowed to change out furniture as long as nothing we modified changed the way the equipment originally performed. when the money was flowing a couple years old, lots of upgrades were purchased with OCO funds. Some units that have very high levels of high-speediness can do or buy even more.
The same things goes for painted weapons. one O-6 didn't care if weapons were painted and then the new O-6 that replaced him didn't like it so the Soldiers scrubbing and scraping.
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