View Full Version : CSI this deer....
Hey guys, looking for any info on age...eta on death...and potential causes of death.
Found on my property, no hunting is allowed anywhere remotely close, and this buck appears to be relatively young in my estimation. Hopefully the teeth can help some of you identify it's age.
It's an Alabama Whitetail fwiw. I'd guess it's weight was around 140lbs.
A few coyotes have been pushed into our locale recently according to one of our neighbors, however I've yet to hear them, or see them.
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC09185_zpsd96c9d76.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/c696c32c-ff1e-4026-9895-2bfbb0190944_zps33a9870a.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC09186_zps1a400324.jpg
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC09190_zps5f568c10.jpg
Looks like a 2 year old.
I bet good money you have a poacher.
Thanks Ryan for weighing in. I hope Amanda is hanging tough, and doing ok. Will continue to keep you guys in my thoughts.
F**king poachers.....I started this thread afraid I'd hear that to be a likely culprit.
So easy to shoot these guys under a spotlight, and a suppressed .22 to the dome. Sucks also that he was indeed a young deer.
Any chance the next season his antlers would have turned out differently? As in more typical, with even growth on each side.
I've heard if they are wounded severely enough on one side, the opposite side's antler won't grow right....sounds kinda foolish I know.
Thank you sir, she is doing really good.
I had one on camera like that season before last. I guess it was his first rack. Turned into a pretty nice 9 point for Alabama probly 120 class deer as a 3 year old last season.
My guess is that that was his first rack.
Did you ever hear about the guys poaching Calaway Gardens?
They were using mountain bikes and Archery gear, very slick.
Haven't heard about those poachers, sneaky f**kers.
Thanks for the info pal :)
Army Chief
04-06-13, 19:06
Any chance the next season his antlers would have turned out differently? As in more typical, with even growth on each side.
I've heard if they are wounded severely enough on one side, the opposite side's antler won't grow right....sounds kinda foolish I know.
Not at all. I went through the rigorous (to understate the matter) hunting certification process in Germany to earn the Jagdschein, and one of the things they covered in detail was the fact that uneven antler development is most directly related to an underdeveloped or damaged testicle on the other side of the animal (i.e. left affects right, and right affects left). We're assuming a natural growth issue here, of course, and not an injury sustained as the result of fighting or an accident of some kind.
Per the German view, a kill like this would also be considered especially honorable, since it removes the opportunity for a genetically-compromised buck to breed. There are some eugenics overtones to this which may give some pause, but conservation in Germany is managed by the hunters themselves, and a few hundred years of excellent hunting stock does tend to suggest that they know what they are doing.
Wish it were a bit easier to help you nail down the cause/culprit. Hard to say, and for all we know, it was a slow-bleed shot taken miles away, and the buck just happened to elude the shooter and expire on your property.
AC
From the teeth, I would say young. How young I dont know, but they arent worn down..
Haven't heard about those poachers, sneaky f**kers.
Thanks for the info pal :)
Yes sir, just food for thought, something to look for you know.
I think it also can happen from an injury on that side(not just testicular). Not sure haven't studied it or anything. We do have our far share of half rack deer around here.
Not at all. I went through the rigorous (to understate the matter) hunting certification process in Germany to earn the Jagdschein, and one of the things they covered in detail was the fact that uneven antler development is most directly related to an underdeveloped or damaged testicle on the other side of the animal (i.e. left affects right, and right affects left). We're assuming a natural growth issue here, of course, and not an injury sustained as the result of fighting or an accident of some kind.
Per the German view, a kill like this would also be considered especially honorable, since it removes the opportunity for a genetically-compromised buck to breed. There are some eugenics overtones to this which may give some pause, but conservation in Germany is managed by the hunters themselves, and a few hundred years of excellent hunting stock does tend to suggest that they know what they are doing.
Wish it were a bit easier to help you nail down the cause/culprit. Hard to say, and for all we know, it was a slow-bleed shot taken miles away, and the buck just happened to elude the shooter and expire on your property.
AC
Excellent info! Very interesting info as well in regards to Germany. I was a member of a hunting camp for several years, and it was a policy to try and take out bucks like this one in the pic above, but rarely saw it practiced to the best of my memory.
Something just extremely majestic about an antlered buck. Perhaps I can use this buck's antler for a nice knife handle or something...that way he won't have gone to total waste.
It's truly a blessing to have your continued presence on M4C as well. One can never tap a knowledgeable resource to much in my book ;)
Not an scholar here, but have studied, hunted at photographed deer for about 15 years. From teeth and antlers I would guess 1.5- 2.5 years old. The one antler looks broken from either fighting or a vehicle accident to me. Hard to tell in the pics. I have found carcasses like this with broken bones and even paint on antlers from a car collision where I hunt. Usually less than 1/2 mile from the road.
Poachers or being malnourished from the rut backed by a hard winter are other possibility's.
The one side actually has a "formed" antler...it's just a little nub. I thought first too that it had one of the antlers broken off until further inspection.
Can I rule out a Coyote? Big concern having an indoor/outdoor cat.
The one side actually has a "formed" antler...it's just a little nub. I thought first too that it had one of the antlers broken off until further inspection.
Can I rule out a Coyote? Big concern having an indoor/outdoor cat.
Yea it hard to see that one side good in the pic. I have never seen a formed antler that blunt, they usually form some type of a point or twist a little. Maybe broken or damaged while in velvet?
Yotes don't typically take down a healthy adult deer. They go after the very young, old, sick or injured.
The more I look at pics 2 &3 the more I am convinced that it is broken off.
Hi:
From what I can see of the lower jaw it looks like the premolars are all present. If that is the case, then it would be about 1 year 7 months.
Biologists use the growth and wear pattern of the teeth in the lower jaw for aging deer. It has proven to be rather accurate.
The more I look at pics 2 &3 the more I am convinced that it is broken off.
You could very well be correct, however it just seems to rounded off, or clean to be broken off.
Little better pic for you guys....
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/a357343c-be9d-499d-b22a-ea7daabf1657_zps197fa907.jpg
Few things I found as well...
http://www.deerhunting.ws/skulls.jpg
http://www.westalabamahuntingtrail.com/images/alabamadeerinformation4.jpg
Even after breaking, they will continue to rub, which accounts for the rounded edges.
How did you find the deer? I admit that the tree looks wimpy and that the buck could snap it, but was it hanging in that tree or did you hang for pictures? It's not unusual at all for a buck to get his antlers caught in a tree while rubbing. It eventually dies or is eaten alive by yotes coming to the smorgasbord.
Bucks die all of the time from natural causes too. Drought, Blue Tongue, yotes, etc, etc. I agree, 2 years.
Young deer and a broken main beam. They can break the antlers fighting with other bucks. He could have been wounded and lost by a hunter, hit by a car, or even mortally wounded by another buck, who knows? The yotes probably cleaned up the carcass. It's a shame, he looks like he could have been a really nice buck in a couple more years.
You know, the place you shoot would be ideal for hunting coyotes. The long sight lines and a good electronic caller should give you a good shooting opportunity. If you want to know if you have yotes on the property, just take a long walk. They like to patrol edges, so roads or trails along tree lines or logging roads in the woods usually reveal the tracks and scat they leave behind.
Littlelebowski
04-09-13, 09:50
For all we know, it could have been a dog or two. It's certainly possible (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=116416).
It could very well be a plethora of different things. I know this year in Nebraska there was a HUGE number of deer killed by EHD (epizootic hemorrhagic disease). It was mainly killing white tail, because they tend to hang out around water a lot more than mule deer. I talked to a bunch of ranchers that found dozens of dead deer on their property.
Lots of great info, thanks all :)
The deer was placed on the tree so that I could find it more easily when I had returned with the camera.
Here are a few pics I recently took of some doe in my front yard...appear to be quite healthy.
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/bc3e6fb1-e21c-4312-a404-6fbb0506ce16_zps3aca47db.jpg (http://s888.photobucket.com/user/trident1982/media/bc3e6fb1-e21c-4312-a404-6fbb0506ce16_zps3aca47db.jpg.html)
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/c2389c74-318c-4355-a605-f9da24c1f4e0_zps3dac3df8.jpg (http://s888.photobucket.com/user/trident1982/media/c2389c74-318c-4355-a605-f9da24c1f4e0_zps3dac3df8.jpg.html)
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC00303_zps7eb6510f.jpg (http://s888.photobucket.com/user/trident1982/media/DSC00303_zps7eb6510f.jpg.html)
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/trident1982/DSC00281_zpsb22d7afc.jpg (http://s888.photobucket.com/user/trident1982/media/DSC00281_zpsb22d7afc.jpg.html)
If it was poached there is a good chance you will find evidence of a bullet strike in a bone some place. Can't see any on the skull so check the lower neck area and shoulder blades and ribs. A billet to the spine or skull pretty much means it died where you found it. If it was shot with out a bone being struck like a gut shot it could have come from a long ass ways a way. Coyotes will take down perfectly healthy deer if they get so inclined. I fully believe it happens more than people think. A young buck that got his ass kicked enough to have a broken horn would be an easy target for a pair of coyotes.
Did you find the deer right near a water source? No more than maybe 25-30 feet away from the source of water?
Yeah he was was within 25-30ft. of a drinking source...i.e. several small creeks/runoffs. He was also within 500yds or so of a river that has been known for some time to be heavily polluted.
Yeah he was was within 25-30ft. of a drinking source...i.e. several small creeks/runoffs. He was also within 500yds or so of a river that has been known for some time to be heavily polluted.
I would look up Chronic Wasting Disease and see if your State is known to have it in their deer population.
Deer will seek a water source and will stay there while they slowly die a miserable death.
Contact your Department of Wildlife (Game Warden). They maybe very interested.
Hope this helps you.
Forgot to mention, deer will also seek out water source and not leave if they have Hemorrhagic Disease also. Someone mentioned HD in a previous post.
Your State Game website should have more info on each.
Great info, and thankfully Alabama seems to be immune thus far from the chronic wasting disease.
http://www.cwd-info.org/images/CWDmap.gif
Now the bad news....Alabama does seem to be infected with Epizootic Hemorrhagic Disease (EHD).
http://www.qdma.com/uploads/articles/1766/hd_2011_map__large.jpg
http://www.fieldandstream.com/files/imagecache/photo-article/photo/23/ehdnebraska_0.jpg
http://www.lsa.umich.edu/eeb/file_uploads/images/thurs_sem_park_deer.jpg
http://www.michigan.gov/images/emergingdiseases/MDNR-EHD-Photo-sm_395469_7.jpg
Damn I really hope that this EHD hasn't crept into my locale. What a shitty way to die!
Great info, and thankfully Alabama seems to be immune thus far from the chronic wasting disease.
http://www.cwd-info.org/images/CWDmap.gif
Now the bad news....Alabama does seem to be infected with Epizootic Hemorrhagic Disease (EHD).
http://www.qdma.com/uploads/articles/1766/hd_2011_map__large.jpg
http://www.fieldandstream.com/files/imagecache/photo-article/photo/23/ehdnebraska_0.jpg
http://www.lsa.umich.edu/eeb/file_uploads/images/thurs_sem_park_deer.jpg
http://www.michigan.gov/images/emergingdiseases/MDNR-EHD-Photo-sm_395469_7.jpg
Damn I really hope that this EHD hasn't crept into my locale. What a shitty way to die!
Yeah, nebraska got hit real hard this year. Pretty much whitetail but it killed tens of thousands of them. If I were to guess I would bet that is what killed your deer.
More evidence this could be indeed the case......my deer died most likely late summer, early fall:
"The peak season for HD is late summer to early fall, so here’s a guide to understanding and identifying HD in case it strikes deer where you hunt.
HD is an infectious, blood-borne disease of deer and elk that is transmitted by biting midges or flies, which are most active in late summer; it is caused by either of two closely related viruses, epizootic hemorrhagic disease (EHD) virus or bluetongue (BTV) virus. Since the symptoms produced by both of these viruses are relatively indistinguishable, the general term “HD” is often used. The Southeast is most affected and outbreaks occur annually, but the disease ranges as far north as New York and New Jersey in the Northeast, across the Midwest to Montana and southern Canada, and to Washington, Oregon and California on the west coast."
Sourced here:
http://www.qdma.com/articles/know-the-signs-of-hd-hemorrhagic-disease
I read about the terrible news in Nebraska just now too....
"From this story on norfolkdailynews.com:
Drought and an outbreak of epizootic hemorrhagic disease (EHD) in 2012 caused significant reductions in whitetail deer populations, permit sales and harvest...Deer permit sales in 2012 declined 13 percent to 122,214. Total deer harvest fell 30 percent to 60,548. The whitetail buck harvest fell 29 percent to 26,309; whitetail antlerless harvest dropped 36 percent to 24,974; mule deer buck harvest declined 3 percent to 7,325; and the mule deer antlerless harvest fell 8 percent to 1,940.
According to the story, while the statewide harvest was down 30 percent, some areas experienced a 50 percent decline. Overall, the combination of drought and disease knocked back Nebraska's deer population to what they were a decade ago. "
Sourced here:
http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/field-notes/2013/03/ehd-takes-toll-deer-population-nebraska-4
I didn't even think of that, mainly because you see more than one.
Farm in Camp Hill (I can PM you the farm name Trident) found 15-20 dead from ehd this year, couple nice bucks.
Damn....15-20 deer all dead in one area from drinking the water :(
Yep, when it hits, it hits hard. But herds usually rebound within a couple of years. Seems to be Nature's way of thinning the ranks a wee bit.
I'd say you can definitely rule out poaching. Those worthless critters will usually cut off the rack, even if it is damaged. Most likely a disease of some sort. If you really want to dig deep the AL dept on conservation ( http://www.outdooralabama.com/contact/might ) may be able to shed some light on possible diseases in your area. If you don't get any info there I have a wildlife biologist contact I can ask to look at the pics and see if he can shed any light on the situation. He is in Alabama and has done some whitetail research there. pm me if I can help.
Id be willing to bet he broke that main beam off while he was in velvet. Thus giving it a rounded or wore appearance on the nub. Depending on the accessability of the area you found tha carcass in, it could be very likely a natural death/disease of some sort.
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