View Full Version : AR Grizzly Medicine...
Ok, this may get crazy / heated, but I am serious...
...going out into grizzly bear country with a AR 15 / M4, whether hunting, hiking or camping...and I know there are some folks way up north that kill large bears with .223's , even .22 Mags.
Now, these bears are a challenge no matter what you carry, but it is NOT necessarily the caliber, but more shot placement, staying as cool & collected given the circumstances, as possible...shot placement & a CNS hit, optimally, perhaps multiple hits as fast as possible so that AR with a really good-fast "SRT" trigger like the American Trigger AR Gold, may do the job?
I have M4's in 5.56 and the heavier side of "light" AR's, 6.8 SPC...
...the lighter side of "heavy", .300 ACC Blackout / Whisper and soon the heaviest .458 SOCOM.
6.8 SPC shoots flat, still light recoil, multiple fast placement vs.
.458 SOCOM (or middle-of-the-road .300 ACC) for frontal mass & energy, perhaps tougher to place CNS shots?
So what would you take out, there, 4 bear?
bonded projectiles and lots of them regardless of caliber!:meeting:
honestly you'll wanna look at what had the greatest sectional density.. IOW mid-heavy .458 bonded hollow points
bonded projectiles and lots of them regardless of caliber!:meeting:
honestly you'll wanna look at what had the greatest sectional density.. IOW mid-heavy .458 bonded hollow points
Are they available in a commercial load, or would I have to get into hand-loading for that?
People up here kill bears with .223's when they have the upper hand and opportunity. When the bear is attacking you, the .223 is not the weapon of choice, neither would be a .300 BK or 6.8 SPC. Better than a sharp stick, but not the best choice.
A .458 Socom is the ballistic equivalent to a 45-70 medium/light load. A 45-70 is a highly regarded lever action round for up close bears with full power rounds. I wouldn't feel too undergunned with a .458 socom.
ICANHITHIMMAN
04-07-13, 08:43
458 socom from Wilson combat, Barnes bullets.
FlyingHunter
04-07-13, 08:57
458 socom from Wilson combat, Barnes bullets.
I agree with the above^^^
And I have direct knowledge of how tough bears are.
The bears I've taken all fell with a .338 Win Mag shooting heavily constructed bullets.
Also a little advice, also try to have your 1st shot thru the vitals (obviously) AND have the bullet path targeted to break one of the front shoulders to reduce the bears mobility e.g. front shoulder leading into vitals or thru vitals striking back shoulder. AND once you know you've hit the bear solid, don't be shy about adding more bullets on target as fast as you can make hits.
Good luck.
People up here kill bears with .223's when they have the upper hand and opportunity. When the bear is attacking you, the .223 is not the weapon of choice, neither would be a .300 BK or 6.8 SPC. Better than a sharp stick, but not the best choice.
A .458 Socom is the ballistic equivalent to a 45-70 medium/light load. A 45-70 is a highly regarded lever action round for up close bears with full power rounds. I wouldn't feel too undergunned with a .458 socom.
"meduim/light"...but not heavy, hmm-mm may be iffy then, I dunno...
I guess I better research the bullet selections available for .458 socom compared to the 45-70's such as Buffalo Bore & Garrett has?
I hear it is ALL about sectional density and weight with some real oomph behind it, for bears?
Are you looking for a bear protection weapon, or an all around gun? If you spend a lot of time in bear country it's worth spending the money on a good dedicated bear gun. A good Mauser/M70/Ruger actioned, 20" barreled, 375H&H is tough to beat. I prefer iron sights in this case. Learn to shoot it well and make sure you hit the bear with your first shot. Work on your follow up shots on the move (sideways).
Are you looking for a bear protection weapon, or an all around gun? If you spend a lot of time in bear country it's worth spending the money on a good dedicated bear gun. A good Mauser/M70/Ruger actioned, 20" barreled, 375H&H is tough to beat. I prefer iron sights in this case. Learn to shoot it well and make sure you hit the bear with your first shot. Work on your follow up shots on the move (sideways).
Well, no...I meant (OP)...that if I choose to go light, and have other purpose to go out with the AR in "bear country", which would be the best caliber of the 4 I have...hard hitting flat shooting small cal. like the 6.8 SPC , .300 BO / W or big-bore .458 socom.
I have a Win. M70 .375 H&H(heavy), Marlin SBL 45-70, Benelli M4 H20 12G (heavy)
.308 Ruger Gunsite Scout, a bunch of Sig P-pistols in all their calibers, which I would NEVER use...just piss off the bear further with those...
...an my "last-ditch" sidearm, S&W X-frame .500 S&W 4" revolver, which I could shove down the opening of whatever end the bear presents and fire away, then endure the mauling while he bleeds out.
I think people have given some good insight as to what calibers would be good and it seems you have a good collections of calibers. I have heard stories of hunted bear that when processing the bear they found 9mm rounds that didn't even pass through the bears fat.
Another thing I would suggest to go with the correct caliber gun is finding something on bear sounds. I wish I could find the episode of this show on sportmans channel for you to watch but I cannot. They went through a ton of sounds bears make and what they mean from feeding sounds, to I don't want to hurt you just leave me alone sounds to you better not take one more step or I am going to shred your ass. One sounds I remember that you cant mistake is this jaw clapping sounds bears make and it doesn't mean the bear wants to play.
These sounds can be early warning as to what might be down the path.
I think people have given some good insight as to what calibers would be good and it seems you have a good collections of calibers. I have heard stories of hunted bear that when processing the bear they found 9mm rounds that didn't even pass through the bears fat.
Another thing I would suggest to go with the correct caliber gun is finding something on bear sounds. I wish I could find the episode of this show on sportmans channel for you to watch but I cannot. They went through a ton of sounds bears make and what they mean from feeding sounds, to I don't want to hurt you just leave me alone sounds to you better not take one more step or I am going to shred your ass. One sounds I remember that you cant mistake is this jaw clapping sounds bears make and it doesn't mean the bear wants to play.
These sounds can be early warning as to what might be down the path.
WoW...the sound thing sounds cool...wish you could find the show?
The AR would not have been my 1st choice...in bear country, was just wondering between the 4, what would be the best when using it for other purposes out in the field?
Could the .458 socom get it done for defense or is it still too underpowered...and would the lighter recoil of 6.8 make for easier CNS shots?
I think that if you are carrying a large sidearm, that I would go with the 6.8. Larger and more powerful than the 5.56 but not as huge as the .458 so you can still make a farther shot if you need to.
Failure2Stop
04-08-13, 10:16
From what I know from bear hunters and those that work with a high possibility of encountering bears (guides and such), deep penetration is essential. Nothing in the 5.56 genre is really suitable to stop a determined bear without CNS hits. Optimal performance in humans is significantly different than optimal performance in bear-sized threats. They prefer to step up in levels of magnitude to 45-70 and better, and the "why" makes sense to me.
From what I know from bear hunters and those that work with a high possibility of encountering bears (guides and such), deep penetration is essential. Nothing in the 5.56 genre is really suitable to stop a determined bear without CNS hits. Optimal performance in humans is significantly different than optimal performance in bear-sized threats. They prefer to step up in levels of magnitude to 45-70 and better, and the "why" makes sense to me.
Well, this all sounds reasonable, perhaps I must just re-think going out alone, period, in brown bear country...and if I really want to or have need to take out one of my AR's...best to have that 2nd or 3rd person packing the 45-70 or .375 H&H.
Although, and I could be dead wrong
(pun intended)...unless one is EXTREMELY experienced guiding/hunting grizzly, and has defended before, or has ice water running in veins...that ONE only "well placed" shot that you may only get...with a bolt gun or even lever, may be off the mark with no quick 2nd shot, then you're toast.
To be that accurate & cool under a "charge" from 30-10 yds.,...well don't know if I could place it? Lots of variables...as I said, I could be wrong but I would feel better with a semi-auto, being able to squeeze the trigger as fast as I could and with the best aim under the circumstances, hope I score both some mechanical immobilizing & CNS and NOT depending on one magical shot.
some guys may be that good & cool when faced with 800 lbs. of muscle, claw & fang charging in like a locomotive at 35mph, not sure that is me...no matter how many rounds I put downrange a year.
So I have this Benelli 12g. semi-auto SG, 7+1 shots, fast, reliable...stuffed with Brenneke Black Magic slugs...big holes, real fast, bones crunching organs exploding, point & shoot, point blank range, why not?
Then again...I read this post in another thread by member "Denali";
"I was born, and have lived most of my 52 years in Alaska, these bear bullet threads are just to ridiculous to be taken seriously. We have a word for the type of person, who is always looking for the magic bullet with which to kill the death ninja bears that are coming under cover of darkness for them, we refer to them as "cheechakos!"
You don't need a study of terminal ballistics for charging bear, you are not going to be shooting a charging bear while fishing, hiking, or wrapped up in your sleeping bag, if you are being charged by an Alaskan brown/grizzly, you are either going to be thanking God it was a false charge(99,999%), or you are going to get mauled, and as a consequence your bullet selection will be largely meaningless, because you will be(if physically able) shooting at contact distance.......You want some sage advice? Invest in bear spray, use common sense in bear country, and stay out of the way of the charging moose..."
...THAT part in bold text may have hit-it-on-the-head, end of story, big trouble unless the charge is 50-75 yds. out or more, giving some time to shoot well?
Also, read some advice from Randy Garrett of Garrett Cartridge Co.,
...from a guy that has hunted big game ALL over the world, "is NOT going to wait & see if the "charge" is a bluff...wait until what, bear is too close now to shoot without a mauling still...NO, he said they get SHOT, the heck with "what if" 99.9% bluffs, as Donnie Brasco said, "fagget a 'bout it"...my life & family more important than any wildlife!
If it had to be an AR, I'd go 50 Beowulf.
A lot of people carry 12ga's loaded with slugs. 375 H&H, 45/70, 375win, 338win/fed, 458win, ect all would work too.
Personally I'd go bigger than smaller, anytime I could be on the menu.
Maybe a 500 S&W Mag lever gun.
If it had to be an AR, I'd go 50 Beowulf.
A lot of people carry 12ga's loaded with slugs. 375 H&H, 45/70, 375win, 338win/fed, 458win, ect all would work too.
Personally I'd go bigger than smaller, anytime I could be on the menu.
Maybe a 500 S&W Mag lever gun.
I agree, good advice, except maybe for the S&W .500 in a lever...45-70 far more potent round...my .500 S&W revolver is my sidearm in the woods, and last ditch effort before I get ate,:help: it is just a handgun round, most potent, but alas no match for rifle rounds of close or equal diameter & frontal profile, me thinks.
Hmmm maybe from an 8" barrel.
You're going to gain a lot of velocity out of a rifle length barrel. I would be willing to bet a 500 s&w mag 400gr load out of a rifle would out do a 45/70. Plus bigger holes always win.
Look up the 50 Beowulf ballistics, its about the same case size as the 500.
FlyingHunter
04-08-13, 20:19
Hornady Ballistics Chart:
Standard .338 Win Mag @ 100yds : Energy = 3313 ft/lbs and the SuperPerformance is a whoop ass Energy = 3798 ft/lbs
CorBon website, 458 SOCOM @ 100yds : Energy = 2023ft/lbs
While the 458 is indeed powerful, it's not even close to true Big Game Ballistics. Certainly, there are those will argue that a .22lr will kill a grizzly, my experience in Alaska shows that the .338 Win Mag or .300 Win Mag is the smart entry threshold for many people. As AKDoug stated, many guides use the venerable .375 H&H and above.
Insofar as a pistol, my first trip to AK the bear guide looked at my .44mag and said something like: "only shoot 5 of the 6 rounds at the bear, then save the last for yourself, the bear will be really pissed at that point.
By my 3rd trip, I took my good old G19 with a .22lr conversion for camp meat. But while in the bush, I never ever went anywhere without my .338 in hand e.g. washing dishes, etc...
Now if we're talking black bear, well, that's truly a different beast and I think AR calibers 6.8spc and up will close that deal.
Placement of the bullet, as always, is vital. Good Luck.
Well, this all sounds reasonable, perhaps I must just re-think going out alone, period, in brown bear country...and if I really want to or have need to take out one of my AR's...best to have that 2nd or 3rd person packing the 45-70 or .375 H&H.
Although, and I could be dead wrong
(pun intended)...unless one is EXTREMELY experienced guiding/hunting grizzly, and has defended before, or has ice water running in veins...that ONE only "well placed" shot that you may only get...with a bolt gun or even lever, may be off the mark with no quick 2nd shot, then you're toast.
To be that accurate & cool under a "charge" from 30-10 yds.,...well don't know if I could place it? Lots of variables...as I said, I could be wrong but I would feel better with a semi-auto, being able to squeeze the trigger as fast as I could and with the best aim under the circumstances, hope I score both some mechanical immobilizing & CNS and NOT depending on one magical shot.
some guys may be that good & cool when faced with 800 lbs. of muscle, claw & fang charging in like a locomotive at 35mph, not sure that is me...no matter how many rounds I put downrange a year.
So I have this Benelli 12g. semi-auto SG, 7+1 shots, fast, reliable...stuffed with Brenneke Black Magic slugs...big holes, real fast, bones crunching organs exploding, point & shoot, point blank range, why not?
Then again...I read this post in another thread by member "Denali";
"I was born, and have lived most of my 52 years in Alaska, these bear bullet threads are just to ridiculous to be taken seriously. We have a word for the type of person, who is always looking for the magic bullet with which to kill the death ninja bears that are coming under cover of darkness for them, we refer to them as "cheechakos!"
You don't need a study of terminal ballistics for charging bear, you are not going to be shooting a charging bear while fishing, hiking, or wrapped up in your sleeping bag, if you are being charged by an Alaskan brown/grizzly, you are either going to be thanking God it was a false charge(99,999%), or you are going to get mauled, and as a consequence your bullet selection will be largely meaningless, because you will be(if physically able) shooting at contact distance.......You want some sage advice? Invest in bear spray, use common sense in bear country, and stay out of the way of the charging moose..."
...THAT part in bold text may have hit-it-on-the-head, end of story, big trouble unless the charge is 50-75 yds. out or more, giving some time to shoot well?
Also, read some advice from Randy Garrett of Garrett Cartridge Co.,
...from a guy that has hunted big game ALL over the world, "is NOT going to wait & see if the "charge" is a bluff...wait until what, bear is too close now to shoot without a mauling still...NO, he said they get SHOT, the heck with "what if" 99.9% bluffs, as Donnie Brasco said, "fagget a 'bout it"...my life & family more important than any wildlife!
Denali can have his opinion, I can have mine. I've seen video of a charging bear getting smoked by a lucky guy at 10 feet with a .338 Win Mag. It was dead right there. They were videoing a final stalk on a moose when the bear burst from the brush.
One of my best friends killed a charging sow brown bear with a single shot from a .340 WBY... the entrance wound was through the top of her head and exited the mid line of the bear about 1/2 way back of the rib cage. The bear died and knocked him over while skidding to a stop.
People have beaten bears to the punch, but you'd better be throwing a big punch.
WoW...the sound thing sounds cool...wish you could find the show?
The AR would not have been my 1st choice...in bear country, was just wondering between the 4, what would be the best when using it for other purposes out in the field?
Could the .458 socom get it done for defense or is it still too underpowered...and would the lighter recoil of 6.8 make for easier CNS shots?
I will see if I cant dig something up for you.
Bottom line, I think with Brown bears or Grizzlys bigger is better.
Yes Im sure both have been killed with the 30-30 or 38-55, but I'd rather play it safe or have someone backing me up with magnum/big bore instead of becoming bear shit.
375H&H, 45-70, ect
Denali can have his opinion, I can have mine. I've seen video of a charging bear getting smoked by a lucky guy at 10 feet with a .338 Win Mag. It was dead right there. They were videoing a final stalk on a moose when the bear burst from the brush.
One of my best friends killed a charging sow brown bear with a single shot from a .340 WBY... the entrance wound was through the top of her head and exited the mid line of the bear about 1/2 way back of the rib cage. The bear died and knocked him over while skidding to a stop.
People have beaten bears to the punch, but you'd better be throwing a big punch.
Perhaps Denali was talking percentages, overall..close charges and as you even said "lucky" (or not)...I have been told by those who have been charged, ( other forums in the last few hours)...that you are :lucky", really lucky to even shoulder the rifle and get ONE shot off and it better be dead on CNS, or you WILL be mauled as the bear with a bullet thru the heart /lungs or whatever, does not yet know he is dead and has quite a few minutes to tear you up...?
You said it "lucky" shot.
Your friend's kill, perhaps the exception...?
Who knows, unless we had data on 1,000 bear charges?
Bottom line is , now I am rethinking going out EVER, in bear country with and AR of ANY caliber, fun as it may be and viable for most all other game around!
From what I know from bear hunters and those that work with a high possibility of encountering bears (guides and such), deep penetration is essential. Nothing in the 5.56 genre is really suitable to stop a determined bear without CNS hits. Optimal performance in humans is significantly different than optimal performance in bear-sized threats. They prefer to step up in levels of magnitude to 45-70 and better, and the "why" makes sense to me.
Would a really good bullet design, loaded "hot" break down a charging bear "mechanically", say like 3 rounds fired quick into his shoulder?
So as to slow it down & give more time for a CNS shot to finish it.
What do you think?
id say forget the AR for a bear and take a "BEAR" caliber revolver.
i carry a 45/70 govt with the hornady lever evolution rounds.
havent meet an animal that thing couldnt put down.
Leverution rounds are not designed with deep penetration on big bear sized targets. They are good rounds, but not what you need for bears.
That said, I live in bear country. I've had them in my yard, in the back of my pickup truck, and in between the buildings at my hardware store. I spend plenty of time unarmed or armed with no more than my CCW pistol. My kids go out all night and fish without anything more than their wits. Bear maulings are still pretty rare when you factor in how many hours people spend in bear country.
id say forget the AR for a bear and take a "BEAR" caliber revolver.
i carry a 45/70 govt with the hornady lever evolution rounds.
havent meet an animal that thing couldnt put down.
You want hard cast, not lever evolution. Something like Buffalo Bore.
Using some common sense, and having some respect for your AO will keep you out of alot of trouble...big bears included.
Failure2Stop
04-24-13, 18:34
Would a really good bullet design, loaded "hot" break down a charging bear "mechanically", say like 3 rounds fired quick into his shoulder?
So as to slow it down & give more time for a CNS shot to finish it.
What do you think?
I wouldn't bet my life on it.
Bears are NOT the primary threat I know how to reliably reduce.
I wholly defer to those that have experience in the matter.
"Back in the day" (late 1970s and early 1980s) if you were to jump and train in Alaska, two guys in the squad turned in their M16A1s and drew M14s.
There's a reason the locals carry 12-gauges; 30 (and bigger) rifles; and 10mm, 44, and 45 handguns.
M67A2 Zippo Tank
05-16-13, 14:19
Bears are heavily armored animals, they have lots of bone, muscle, and fat; and hollowpoints tend not to work very well against like things, too. You need soft nosed ammo or ball for facing down a bear.
Your rifle must work. Bears rush very quickly, you will not have time to work a manually-operated rifle for a second shot. I'd take a quality 7.62x39mm AK with a muzzle brake. If rushed by a bear, I would then shoot it to the ground, and I don't care how many shots it takes, too.
There is a difference between hunting and self defense shooting. Learn the difference and live.
M67A2 Zippo Tank
05-16-13, 14:24
Here is wisdom: "Back in the day" (late 1970s and early 1980s) if you were to jump and train in Alaska, two guys in the squad turned in their M16A1s and drew M14s. M-14, outstanding bear repellent.
There's a reason the locals carry 12-gauges; 30 (and bigger) rifles; and 10mm, 44, and 45 handguns.Glock 20 10mm or EAA Witness 10mm would be my picks, and I admit my 1911A1 .45 acp might not consistently penetrate bears, also.
Bears are heavily armored animals, they have lots of bone, muscle, and fat; and hollowpoints tend not to work very well against like things, too. You need soft nosed ammo or ball for facing down a bear.
Your rifle must work. Bears rush very quickly, you will not have time to work a manually-operated rifle for a second shot. I'd take a quality 7.62x39mm AK with a muzzle brake. If rushed by a bear, I would then shoot it to the ground, and I don't care how many shots it takes, too.
There is a difference between hunting and self defense shooting. Learn the difference and live.
Glock 20 10mm or EAA Witness 10mm would be my picks, and I admit my 1911A1 .45 acp might not consistently penetrate bears, also.
A Grizzly / Brown bear ...even a large Black...would laugh at your 7.62x39mm / AK & 10mm HG rounds...
...an adrenaline filled bear on a 10-20 yd. charge, it would not even allow you to empty your mag into him and even if you could empty the mag, those rounds would little affect, probably piss him off further while he tears you apart.
These animals have about 3 minutes or more after they don't know that they're "DEAD", hearts blown to kingdom come...to maul and tear you limb from limb.
I have done my homework since my OP, 375 H&H / Ruger and up for these APEX predators...
..."Learn the difference and live"...would be my advice to you!
M67A2 Zippo Tank
05-16-13, 19:18
A Grizzly / Brown bear ...even a large Black...would laugh at your 7.62x39mm / AK & 10mm HG rounds...
...an adrenaline filled bear on a 10-20 yd. charge, it would not even allow you to empty your mag into him and even if you could empty the mag, those rounds would little affect, probably piss him off further while he tears you apart.
These animals have about 3 minutes or more after they don't know that they're "DEAD", hearts blown to kingdom come...to maul and tear you limb from limb.
I have done my homework since my OP, 375 H&H / Ruger and up for these APEX predators...
..."Learn the difference and live"...would be my advice to you!
Alright, who makes an AK-47 in rounds larger than 7.6239mm?
Alright, who makes an AK-47 in rounds larger than 7.6239mm?
What are you talking about???
Who cares about the "AK" or 7.62x39...it is a feeble pathetic caliber for self defense against brown bears... as is any handgun, even the mighty
.500 S&W, which I have...let alone a wimpy 10mm semi-auto pistol.
What are you talking about???
Who cares about the "AK" or 7.62x39...it is a feeble pathetic caliber for self defense against brown bears...
it seems you're mistaken:
hiker-kills-bear-with-ak-74 (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/07/robert-farago/ak-hiker-kills-bear-with-ak-74/)
this from an even more pathetically feeble round than 7.62x39...
M67A2 Zippo Tank makes more sense when he says
"there is a difference between hunting and self defense shooting"
to abandon all the advantages of a semi-auto battle rifle designed for quick combat against multiple moving dangerous animals for a previous-millenium-designed bolt/lever/pump (with iron sights(!)) in a hand-of-god cartridge just doesn't make sense...
...unless you're looking for an ethical hunt where one shot = one kill.
we've all got a hell of a lot more practice running semi-auto rifles & pistols than bolts and revolvers - why abandon that training?
weapon mounted light? check.
aimpoint? check.
muzzle brake? check.
Barnes TSX/mk318/m855? check.
30 round mag that can be emptied before you can get off your second shot with a bolt gun? priceless.
same/same for a glock 22 or 21 or 20 with hard cast bullets vs any revolver considered adequate for bear.
speaking of which, in the AR platform i'd still give the nod to 5.56/.300 blk over 6.8/6.5/.458 simply due to proven reliability (mainly around magazines). the only thing worse than trying to run a bolt gun in the face of a charging bear would be clearing a malf on the AR.
finally, it's a hell of a lot cheaper (and so more likely to happen) to practice "bear drills" with an AR/AK than an exotic safari round.
Ok, this may get crazy / heated, but I am serious...
...going out into grizzly bear country with a AR 15 / M4, whether hunting, hiking or camping...and I know there are some folks way up north that kill large bears with .223's , even .22 Mags.
I had a debated with a doctor once who maintained the .25 was fine for SD due to the number of autopsies he'd performed on dead people shot with the .25. I think you know where that leads.
Now, these bears are a challenge no matter what you carry, but it is NOT necessarily the caliber, but more shot placement, staying as cool & collected given the circumstances, as possible...shot placement & a CNS hit, optimally, perhaps multiple hits as fast as possible so that AR with a really good-fast "SRT" trigger like the American Trigger AR Gold, may do the job?
I think people always underestimate how fast those bears can move. If the bear is attacking you, you're likely to have one shot and one only before they are on you. Seems you want to hedge your bet and be of a caliber that has the potential to stop a big charging bear in as few shots as possible.
Never hunted bear or hiked much in big bear country, but I know a few guides in Alaska, and the the person they guide is hunting the bear, but their job is defense against a bear they surprise, etc. that's going to be up close. They carry slug guns.
Not sure if they carry some sabat rnd or standard slugs however. If one wants to stick to the platform they have most experience with, I wonder what the .50 beowulf would do?
Does anyone make a .50 beowulf hunting rnd? What type of penetration does one get from .50 beowulf?
I don't know much about it, but seems an interesting option for the application perhaps.
Alright, who makes an AK-47 in rounds larger than 7.6239mm?
You recommend 7.62x39mm and a 10mm handgun for large bears for defense? I'd recommend the 10mm over the 7.62x39mm as it will hurt less when the bear shoves it up your a$$. :rolleyes:
30 round mag that can be emptied before you can get off your second shot with a bolt gun? priceless.
With what, your 1200 rpm Mac-10? Mag dumps don't kill bears.
The further you move from .223/5.56 to realistic bear calibers the speed difference between semi's and bolt guns significantly decrease. By the time you get to .308 or larger, it's negligible.
You'd be surprised at how fast an experienced shooter can be when only hits count with a bolt gun, especially when equipped with similar sights. (RDS, etc)
We won't talk about reliability in cold weather, etc.
it seems you're mistaken:
hiker-kills-bear-with-ak-74 (http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/07/robert-farago/ak-hiker-kills-bear-with-ak-74/)
this from an even more pathetically feeble round than 7.62x39...
M67A2 Zippo Tank makes more sense when he says
to abandon all the advantages of a semi-auto battle rifle designed for quick combat against multiple moving dangerous animals for a previous-millenium-designed bolt/lever/pump (with iron sights(!)) in a hand-of-god cartridge just doesn't make sense...
...unless you're looking for an ethical hunt where one shot = one kill.
we've all got a hell of a lot more practice running semi-auto rifles & pistols than bolts and revolvers - why abandon that training?
weapon mounted light? check.
aimpoint? check.
muzzle brake? check.
Barnes TSX/mk318/m855? check.
30 round mag that can be emptied before you can get off your second shot with a bolt gun? priceless.
same/same for a glock 22 or 21 or 20 with hard cast bullets vs any revolver considered adequate for bear.
speaking of which, in the AR platform i'd still give the nod to 5.56/.300 blk over 6.8/6.5/.458 simply due to proven reliability (mainly around magazines). the only thing worse than trying to run a bolt gun in the face of a charging bear would be clearing a malf on the AR.
finally, it's a hell of a lot cheaper (and so more likely to happen) to practice "bear drills" with an AR/AK than an exotic safari round.
Well...I started this thread, but have since talked to many experienced big game Hunters...and ANY AR15/M4 is pathetic against a brown bear species!
The link and article you referred to was a black bear...huge difference!
Multiple hits from a .223 or especially anemic AK47 round will do nothing to stop an adrenaline filled charging Grizzly.
What is needed is a well placed shot from a heavy caliber with a good bullet design of significant sectional density that will penetrate deep.
With what, your 1200 rpm Mac-10? Mag dumps don't kill bears.
The further you move from .223/5.56 to realistic bear calibers the speed difference between semi's and bolt guns significantly decrease. By the time you get to .308 or larger, it's negligible.
You'd be surprised at how fast an experienced shooter can be when only hits count with a bolt gun, especially when equipped with similar sights. (RDS, etc)
We won't talk about reliability in cold weather, etc.
1. "mag dumps don't kill bears" like buck shot doesn't kill deer.
2. there is simply no way even "an experienced" bolt gunner is going to out-speed a semi-auto shooter, especially "when only hits count."
3. AR reliability in cold weather is only a function of lubrication, otherwise the .mil would have to issue different rifles for winter warfare.
since you apparently can do some math (re mag dump times), let's compare muzzle energy:
5.56 = ~1200
12 gauge slug = ~2300
.375 H&H = ~4300
in terms of energy on target, it just doesn't take all that many AR rounds to equal even the .375.
any hit with a 5.56 is infinitely better than any miss with a .375, and when rate of fire combined with hit probability is considered, it's not even close.
guides use big cartridges because they ethically hunt, and they want one-shot-stops (with as little hide/meat damage as possible, too). historically, you get that from big cartridges with hard, solid bullets. and you can only launch those from bolts, pumps or levers.
if you just need to stop or dissuade something from coming at you, rapidly repeated rifle hits on target will do the job (as the benighted hiker in the article aptly demonstrated) - and i bet more repeatably than bolts.
now, would an AR be my first choice for "grizzly medicine"? nope - but the OP asked about AR's in bear country, not "best one-shot-stop bear cartridge." so let's think within his box as defined.
upon consideration, i would prefer an LMT MWS. but i would comfortably take a 7.62 AK (esp if loaded w/corbon hunter or fed fusion). and if there's one thing we know , it's that AK's are reliable in cold weather...
Well...I started this thread, but have since talked to many experienced big game Hunters...and ANY AR15/M4 is pathetic against a brown bear species!
The link and article you referred to was a black bear...huge difference!
Multiple hits from a .223 or especially anemic AK47 round will do nothing to stop an adrenaline filled charging Grizzly.
What is needed is a well placed shot from a heavy caliber with a good bullet design of significant sectional density that will penetrate deep.
no, multiple articles reference Brown Bear.
if you can make "The Shot" with a heavy-cartridge bolt, again and again, on demand, then i respectfully tip my hat to you.
me? i'm going to miss, and more than once, so give me an AK 7.62 or a .300blk AR. we can get good bullets that deeply penetrate with either. and we can get way more of them in the bear in way less time than your .375
2. there is simply no way even "an experienced" bolt gunner is going to out-speed a semi-auto shooter, especially "when only hits count."
Sounds like you are still comparing .223 or 7.62x39.
Even in 6.8/Grendel recoil effects become noticeable in light AR's, and in any full power hunting cartridge (my .308 or larger) reload speed is less of an issue than recoil mgt. Especially when only hits count.
Not saying you could not mag-dump an M-14/91/FAL, but for fast, aimed hits with similar optics, not a huge difference with bolt guns and a reasonably experienced operator. (And I hunted extensively with a 91 when I was young and foolish)
You said you could empty a mag before the bolt gun fired it's second shot. I'd like to see that if you plan to hit anything. Even if your ar was full auto. 1.5 to 2 second shot spacing for accurate fire is just not that hard with bolt guns
Carry that .223 in grizzly country if you like. Meanwhile, lot's of 8x57, 30/06, .300, .444, or larger carried by the folks who live there.
Notably missing: 30/30 class, which would put any of the AR "beyond 5.56" variants (6.x, 7.62x39, 300blk) in the same category. 300 black better than 5.56 for grizzly? Sure, with the right bullets. But what I'd want to carry? Hell no! To put it in perspective, even the old 8x57 throws that 200'ish grain bullet double or more the velocity than 300 Blk.
no, multiple articles reference Brown Bear.
if you can make "The Shot" with a heavy-cartridge bolt, again and again, on demand, then i respectfully tip my hat to you.
me? i'm going to miss, and more than once, so give me an AK 7.62 or a .300blk AR. we can get good bullets that deeply penetrate with either. and we can get way more of them in the bear in way less time than your .375
Please, show me the experienced guide who works in big bear country who carries such a set up or recommends such a set up. You're still not getting it. You're unlikely to get more than 1-2 rnds off and that's it.
From Dave Smith, the author of “Don’t Get Eaten” and “Backcountry Bear Basics.”:
"...the Tongass National Forest in Alaska did comprehensive review of firearms meant purely for self-defense against bears. The recommendation was a .338 Winchester Magnum, a .375 HandH Magnum, or a 12-gauge shotgun with slugs. As an aside, the report mentioned that big game hunters in grizzly country should carry at least a 30/06 using stout bullets."
"...U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service publication on close encounters with bears states that a grizzly can “run 50 yards in three seconds, or up to 40 mph.”
This is old news. It's why experienced people who actually know this topic and or deal with it will give you the exact same advice because it's reality of the situation vs, what you seem to be picturing happening and why no one would consider those calibers remotely adequate choices for defense against a big bear intent on doing you harm regardless of the logic system/justification you keep employing to use a freakin' 300 blk on such an animal.
MountainRaven
08-05-13, 13:59
Alright, who makes an AK-47 in rounds larger than 7.6239mm?
The Russians do.
In fact, they make quite a few.
7.62x51/308, 7.62x54mmR, 9x39mm, 12-gauge, &c.
For my money, I'll take a Winchester Model 70 in 375 H&H with 300-grain solids.
If somebody made a hot-loaded 7.62x51mm tipped with a 200-grain solid that reliably cycles in a self-shucker, I might be inclined to take a SCAR 17S or other 308 battle rifle, instead.
Please, show me the experienced guide who works in big bear country who carries such a set up or recommends such a set up. You're still not getting it. You're unlikely to get more than 1-2 rnds off and that's it.
From Dave Smith, the author of “Don’t Get Eaten” and “Backcountry Bear Basics.”:
"...the Tongass National Forest in Alaska did comprehensive review of firearms meant purely for self-defense against bears. The recommendation was a .338 Winchester Magnum, a .375 HandH Magnum, or a 12-gauge shotgun with slugs. As an aside, the report mentioned that big game hunters in grizzly country should carry at least a 30/06 using stout bullets."
"...U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service publication on close encounters with bears states that a grizzly can “run 50 yards in three seconds, or up to 40 mph.”
This is old news. It's why experienced people who actually know this topic and or deal with it will give you the exact same advice because it's reality of the situation vs, what you seem to be picturing happening and why no one would consider those calibers remotely adequate choices for defense against a big bear intent on doing you harm regardless of the logic system/justification you keep employing to use a freakin' 300 blk on such an animal.
regardless, i will get off many more rounds than you. and their cumulative effect will be similar to the magnums. if you miss, you can't recover fast enough and run your bolt before he's on you. if I miss, i adjust and fire again - each time he slows down more.
and if your logic system holds true, then i'm sure you carry a .44 mag revolver and keep a 12ga pump behind the front door. after all, if you've only got a couple of seconds, you need to be sure the bad guy goes down. and no puny 9mm or varmint round will do that - right?
everyone who champions the big game cartridges is assuming a hit.
i'm NOT advocating an AR over a guide gun. i AM saying i'm just as likely to become bear shit if i have a guide gun. but given my level of (low) experience with both platforms, i stand a better chance with an AR. and i stand a MUCH better chance with an AK filled with hunting ammo.
ahem...just like the dude in the, you know, real world example from last week.
in any case, i can think of many reasons experienced people would be carrying big cartridges in manually operated firearms. much of it has to do with the ethics of hunting rather than survival, others are rooted in tradition(inertia), what dad/granddad passed down, what's available at the local gun store, what the local game warden/park ranger approves of, what their client will think of an "assault rifle", etc., etc., etc.
gotta go to dinner now, we can pick this up again later...
regardless, i will get off many more rounds than you. and their cumulative effect will be similar to the magnums. if you miss, you can't recover fast enough and run your bolt before he's on you. if I miss, i adjust and fire again - each time he slows down more.
and if your logic system holds true, then i'm sure you carry a .44 mag revolver and keep a 12ga pump behind the front door. after all, if you've only got a couple of seconds, you need to be sure the bad guy goes down. and no puny 9mm or varmint round will do that - right?
everyone who champions the big game cartridges is assuming a hit.
i'm NOT advocating an AR over a guide gun. i AM saying i'm just as likely to become bear shit if i have a guide gun. but given my level of (low) experience with both platforms, i stand a better chance with an AR. and i stand a MUCH better chance with an AK filled with hunting ammo.
ahem...just like the dude in the, you know, real world example from last week.
in any case, i can think of many reasons experienced people would be carrying big cartridges in manually operated firearms. much of it has to do with the ethics of hunting rather than survival, others are rooted in tradition(inertia), what dad/granddad passed down, what's available at the local gun store, what the local game warden/park ranger approves of, what their client will think of an "assault rifle", etc., etc., etc.
gotta go to dinner now, we can pick this up again later...
People kill bears with ARs by shooting them in the head. An AR isn't going to penetrate the torso for shit. Big game defense requires big game rounds to stop and that's been well proven the world over.
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This is what happens when people choreograph the fight before it occurs, ignore what is MORE likely to occur, and latch on to the things that justify an inferior caliber, but make them feel better about their bullet launching platform, for a given event.
Hunting Grizzlies and or coastal Brownies is entirely different than stopping a charging Griz/Brown, and I've yet to see anyone I would take seriously, in the field with any of the "AR calibers" as a "bear stopping cartridge" in say a bolt gun or lever gun (my preference of the two if I couldn't carry the gauge)... Don't chose the wrong caliber because you want to roll with an AR, chose the right tool, for the job...That being said, if you study the same "bear books", and follow the sound advice contained within; as far as how to behave yourself when your "operating" in bear country, you'll more than likely need an AR for some jerk you meet, not a bear.
I'm not a hunter and have no dealings with bears of any sort. Here's my question- A few of you have posted about penetration issues with a small caliber. Would a few well-placed green tips get the job done?
I'm not a hunter and have no dealings with bears of any sort. Here's my question- A few of you have posted about penetration issues with a small caliber. Would a few well-placed green tips get the job done?
M855 fragments/yaws at closer range in tissue. The steel penetrator is designed more for body armor, car doors and other hard light barriers. Many rounds that are thought of as good penetrators will slow down fast in tissue or behave erratically. That said it's better than nothing and would do better than many of the explosively expanding sd/small game rounds out there.
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People need to keep in mind that bears and other large game have much denser /stronger bodies than humans so what works on us doesn't work the best on them. Just because a pinhole in the right spot can put an elephant down doesn't mean that you should defend yourself with a needle.
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This is what happens when people choreograph the fight before it occurs, ignore what is MORE likely to occur, and latch on to the things that justify an inferior caliber, but make them feel better about their bullet launching platform, for a given event.
Hunting Grizzlies and or coastal Brownies is entirely different than stopping a charging Griz/Brown, and I've yet to see anyone I would take seriously, in the field with any of the "AR calibers" as a "bear stopping cartridge" in say a bolt gun or lever gun (my preference of the two if I couldn't carry the gauge)... Don't chose the wrong caliber because you want to roll with an AR, chose the right tool, for the job...That being said, if you study the same "bear books", and follow the sound advice contained within; as far as how to behave yourself when your "operating" in bear country, you'll more than likely need an AR for some jerk you meet, not a bear.
you, too, are ignoring the real-life survival account from just last week where a non-choreographed "fight" occurred with a "pathetic" 5.45 assault rifle.
outcome? bear = 0, ak = 1.
seems like several of y'all are the ones who might harbor prejudice...
let's posit this:
you are "patrolling" down a trail. you know there's a crazy man with a spear that's going to try to harpoon your ass. in other words, you've got to sense, acquire and put down "the target" in just a few seconds...
how many of you choose a bolt gun with 3 rounds over an AR with 28?
once again, i'm not the one choosing an AR as a bear stopper. just considering possibilities under the OP's stated conditions, backed up by some actual, y'know...truth.
(i'll take my AR for bears in .308, or a 7.62 AK w/hunting ammo)
you, too, are ignoring the real-life survival account from just last week where a non-choreographed "fight" occurred with a "pathetic" 5.45 assault rifle.
outcome? bear = 0, ak = 1.
seems like several of y'all are the ones who might harbor prejudice...
let's posit this:
you are "patrolling" down a trail. you know there's a crazy man with a spear that's going to try to harpoon your ass. in other words, you've got to sense, acquire and put down "the target" in just a few seconds...
how many of you choose a bolt gun with 3 rounds over an AR with 28?
once again, i'm not the one choosing an AR as a bear stopper. just considering possibilities under the OP's stated conditions, backed up by some actual, y'know...truth.
(i'll take my AR for bears in .308, or a 7.62 AK w/hunting ammo)
If all you have is a pointed stick then then that's what you'll try to kill the bear with but if I'm going into known bear territory then that means that I can pre plan my shit and prepare accordingly. That means a big bore **** you up gun. Not a pea shooter (that's what an ar is to a bear ). Just because someone somewhere successfully used an AR, ak, 22lr, sword, knife, stick, razor blade or harsh words to defend themselves from a bear does NOT mean that you should choose it if you have a choice.
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you, too, are ignoring the real-life survival account from just last week where a non-choreographed "fight" occurred with a "pathetic" 5.45 assault rifle.
outcome? bear = 0, ak = 1.
seems like several of y'all are the ones who might harbor prejudice...
let's posit this:
you are "patrolling" down a trail. you know there's a crazy man with a spear that's going to try to harpoon your ass. in other words, you've got to sense, acquire and put down "the target" in just a few seconds...
how many of you choose a bolt gun with 3 rounds over an AR with 28?
once again, i'm not the one choosing an AR as a bear stopper. just considering possibilities under the OP's stated conditions, backed up by some actual, y'know...truth.
(i'll take my AR for bears in .308, or a 7.62 AK w/hunting ammo)
A single event is just a single data point and if someone is foolish enough to "plan" from that data point, the gene pool might get thinned. That's like saying the guy who was driving drunk without a seatbelt on; who was ejected from the vehicle and survived, proves that wearing your seatbelt is bad because if he would have had his on he would have died because the car was totaled.
Yes the OP framed the question around ARs, and their respective calibers, got it...What people are saying, that actually live, hunt, and play in bear country is that a person would be better served "gunning up" than trying to force fit a semi-auto, small caliber rifle into an equation (stop charging grizzly) it wasn't designed for.
Quote
"you are "patrolling" down a trail. you know there's a crazy man with a spear that's going to try to harpoon your ass. in other words, you've got to sense, acquire and put down "the target" in just a few seconds...
how many of you choose a bolt gun with 3 rounds over an AR with 28?"
Quote
"regardless, i will get off many more rounds than you. and their cumulative effect will be similar to the magnums."
My bad on the choreographing thing obviously I'm terribly confused...
Quote
"seems like several of y'all are the ones who might harbor prejudice..."
This isn't about prejudice it's about trying to keep someone from planning to fail. IF all you had was an AR or AK with you for bear defense, then by all means roll your safety off and go to work on it, but I would argue; if you win, luck was more than likely on your side, and if you lose, your first error was at the house when you selected the gun you were leaving with, that day (for bear defense).
Quote
"everyone who champions the big game cartridges is assuming a hit."
Everyone that champions high cap weapons is assuming they are going to get the "benefit" of all that capacity.
As Mr. blasty said "Big game defense requires big game rounds to stop and that's been well proven the world over." Logic check-would you take the AR/AK (and associated calibers) if you thought you might have to stop say a charging cape buffalo? would you bet on your quantity vs. quality logic? If so, someone needs to let all of those guides and PHs know they've got it all wrong.
you, too, are ignoring the real-life survival account from just last week where a non-choreographed "fight" occurred with a "pathetic" 5.45 assault rifle.
And as i said: I had a debate with a doctor once who maintained the .25 was fine for SD due to the number of autopsies he'd performed on dead people shot with the .25. I think you know where that leads.
Ever see the vid of the guy killing the huge wild hog with a pellet gun? Let's just go with a pellet gun for future hog hunts. :rolleyes:
I'm done. Topic has officially gone full circle and ended up no place.
Good luck. :cool:
Good luck. :cool:[/QUOTE]
Well said
High Tower
08-06-13, 18:24
Good luck. :cool:
Well said[/QUOTE]
Oh please! How can you and every other Alaskan with outdoor experience be right when there was this one case where a guy shot a black bear with an AK? :D
But in all seriousness, we went up there for our honeymoon and for all of our outdoor guided hikes and whatnot, the guides carried 12 gauge shotguns. That was in June so it might have been for the skeeters now that I think about it.
MountainRaven
08-06-13, 20:59
regardless, i will get off many more rounds than you. and their cumulative effect will be similar to the magnums. if you miss, you can't recover fast enough and run your bolt before he's on you. if I miss, i adjust and fire again - each time he slows down more.
Your 55-75-grain bullets will not impress a bear sufficiently enough to slow it down. Period. Even if you kill it, it will still barrel straight into you.
everyone who champions the big game cartridges is assuming a hit.
And you're assuming that you'll have enough time to get multiple rounds on target.
You won't.
You get one shot, maybe two.
If you want to piddle it away on a couple rounds of squirrel gun ammo, go ahead, God will sort it out.
In any case, there once was a guy who felt that 7x57 in a svelte, fast-handling battle rifle was all that he needed for the largest and most dangerous game on this planet. I won't say that he was wrong, but I will say that they had to scrape what was left of him off the ground, after he very terminally learned the difference between a cartridge that can kill a critter and one that can stop that critter right f___ing now.
As for the AK versus bear experience, I have heard-tell of a man attacked by a bear who put it down with a 9mm handgun. So maybe a good back up to the Kalashnikov for bears would be a Glock 19.
i did not start this thread.
i was not, haven't been, and am not a proponent of the AR/5.56 as grizzly medicine.
if we chance to meet in the bear woods, you will not recognize me for i will not be carrying an AR.
what i am a proponent of, however, is challenging conventional wisdom and turning arguments back on themselves.
this is not to say that either of these tactics lead to new, correct conclusions, but rather that we should question dogma and assumptions whenever possible.
i work at a company, and have spent my career there, where we constantly succeed despite the many, many experts that have repeatedly proclaimed our impending doom.
we are accustomed to being required to "just make it work." we are astoundingly successful - and have been for decades.
we succeed by questioning everything.
does it mean that we re-invent the wheel every project or that conventional wisdom is always neither?
hardly.
but what strikes me in all this is the intrinsic and inherent double standards in most of the counter arguments.
those that piss on the 12ga, pump & lever actions, revolver, fewer and larger cartridges and technology-instead-of-training immediately retreat to just those very things when the perspective is changed only slightly.
why are the above so completely necessary for bruins but simultaneously completely inadequate for human social work?
and what about the inverse...?
the assertions and proof are often contradictory. and therefore highly questionable...
how many rounds of 12ga slug, .30-06, .338, or .375 have you fired this month/year/ever?
out of a pump?
lever?
bolt?
how fast can you reload your big game weapon?
are you certain of it's initial quality and durability?
do we have MilSpec/TDP equivalents to reference?
how many rounds until it's ready to bet your life on?
is it properly upgraded/accessorized/optimized or is walmart K.I.S.S now magically good enough?
how does your dangerous game training stack up relative to your anti-personnel training?
1%, 10% or no percent?
how many drills have you run?
what are your 1st shot and split times?
who are the larry vickers, paul howe or travis haley of dangerous game survival? how many classes have you taken from them or their peers?
anyhow...
like willbrink i believe it is indeed time to leave this thread. unlike him, though, i will say that even if this topic has 360'ed it's gone far and has been productive - at least for me.
i did not start this thread.
i was not, haven't been, and am not a proponent of the AR/5.56 as grizzly medicine.
if we chance to meet in the bear woods, you will not recognize me for i will not be carrying an AR.
what i am a proponent of, however, is challenging conventional wisdom and turning arguments back on themselves.
this is not to say that either of these tactics lead to new, correct conclusions, but rather that we should question dogma and assumptions whenever possible.
i work at a company, and have spent my career there, where we constantly succeed despite the many, many experts that have repeatedly proclaimed our impending doom.
we are accustomed to being required to "just make it work." we are astoundingly successful - and have been for decades.
we succeed by questioning everything.
does it mean that we re-invent the wheel every project or that conventional wisdom is always neither?
hardly.
but what strikes me in all this is the intrinsic and inherent double standards in most of the counter arguments.
those that piss on the 12ga, pump & lever actions, revolver, fewer and larger cartridges and technology-instead-of-training immediately retreat to just those very things when the perspective is changed only slightly.
why are the above so completely necessary for bruins but simultaneously completely inadequate for human social work?
and what about the inverse...?
the assertions and proof are often contradictory. and therefore highly questionable...
how many rounds of 12ga slug, .30-06, .338, or .375 have you fired this month/year/ever?
out of a pump?
lever?
bolt?
how fast can you reload your big game weapon?
are you certain of it's initial quality and durability?
do we have MilSpec/TDP equivalents to reference?
how many rounds until it's ready to bet your life on?
is it properly upgraded/accessorized/optimized or is walmart K.I.S.S now magically good enough?
how does your dangerous game training stack up relative to your anti-personnel training?
1%, 10% or no percent?
how many drills have you run?
what are your 1st shot and split times?
who are the larry vickers, paul howe or travis haley of dangerous game survival? how many classes have you taken from them or their peers?
anyhow...
like willbrink i believe it is indeed time to leave this thread. unlike him, though, i will say that even if this topic has 360'ed it's gone far and has been productive - at least for me.
Thank you oh wise one for your prophetic views. Before you came along I never thought to question anything about preparing myself for more than just a mugging on the street with my ccw! :rolleyes:
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Tzintzuntzan
08-07-13, 01:05
I don't really understand how you can ignore the immense anatomical differences between a human and an animal that can reach 800lb and break up a car without too much effort. Not only that but how many 5.56 rounds are typically recommended to stop a threat? I guarantee it is more than two rounds. There is literally hundreds of years worth of data on what consistently gets the job done against animals with strength and ferocity that humans can never even dream of attaining; why would one choose to ignore that information? Don't try and spread this idea as an interesting thought experiment, it is not and never will be worth the trouble.
I wouldn't hesitate to carry my 5.56 or 5.45 ar as defense from a vicious polar bear such as this.
http://www.sunridgepoodles.com/images/gallery/thumb_250_s/146-Sunridge-Exquisitely-Elegant-Lilly.jpg
I wouldn't hesitate to carry my 5.56 or 5.45 ar as defense from a vicious polar bear such as this.
http://www.sunridgepoodles.com/images/gallery/thumb_250_s/146-Sunridge-Exquisitely-Elegant-Lilly.jpg
Dude, you need at LEAST a 600 nitro for that monster :p
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Just read through this whole thread...
The fact that anybody would argue that a AR or AK would in any means be remotely sufficient or in anyway somehow superior to a big bore bolt gun is hilarious.
Just read through this whole thread...
The fact that anybody would argue that a AR or AK would in any means be remotely sufficient or in anyway somehow superior to a big bore bolt gun is hilarious.
i KNOW, right...?
i mean, i fell right the F out of my chair -- ROTFLMAO -- when i read this utter hilarity!
http://www.adn.com/2013/07/29/2997953/section-of-turnagain-arm-trail.html
platoonDaddy
08-24-13, 05:42
My weapon for humping|hunting in the west is a G21 with the .460 Rowland in a shoulder holster. When you start to quarter an Elk or Mule Deer, the rifle is out of reach, therefore if the brown decides he wants a free meal, you have the .460 Rowland on your bod.
As previously stated, if you want to take you AR, purchase an upper in: .50 Beowulf use 325 grain at 2000fps, for sure you are good-to-go.
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