View Full Version : What makes a quality handgun?
I am familiar with the chart and characteristics of quality in the AR platform given the resources from this site.
Does a similar list of information exist for handguns? What are they key things to look for when purchasing a handgun (putting personal preferences aside) when looking for quality?
The chart was initially useful because you had a dozen manufacturers making the same product. With the exception of the 1911, most manufacturers make pistols with different materials and mechanical actions meant to maximize their own design. An apples to apples comparison, such as the AR list, isn't really possible. You end up having to go by reviews, maintenance records over years, observation of what fails during training, how often and why...
The market tends to follow this. A few manufacturers dominate professional sales, with a few others making significant contributions.
I agree with the post above. Lots of material differences, manufacturing differences, design differences, lots of other variables that makes this question tough, on a line by line comparison.
There are a few pistols that have been given the nod by some very notable users, the HK45c comes to mind. The MK25 is another. Now there's more to the selection process than meets the eye, however, in certain instances such as those pistols and others, there's little question in my mind that if its good enough for DEVGRU, it sure as shit is good enough for me.
Another example that comes to mind, of a pistol that's been wrung out to my complete satisfaction is the HK45. http://pistol-training.com/archives/4027
By and large, in my world, I pay pretty close attention to the firearms industry. Though by no means an SME, I do pay close attention to those who's experience and opinions are worthy of my respect. There's no substitute for homework....and thanks to some of these been-there-done-that types who's service and opinions I highly regard, the list gets thinned out fairly quickly of go-to guns.
There are plenty of suitably reliable pistols out there.....but I'm not interested in owning them all. In this instance, I'm happy to lean on my own shooting experiences, and ultimately defer to those who know vastly more than myself to vet a platform for what it truly is worth.
Salamander
04-09-13, 15:08
I think with the AR chart, there is a clear focus on the end goal... A reliable piece of equipment under rigorous combat or self defense use. A gun that meets that very high bar is more than good enough for general use.
With handguns, it would be necessary to similarly focus the intent to even begin to have a discussion. Most would probably agree that a high end custom 1911 is a quality gun, but that same gun might not run reliably in mud and rain and with a lack of cleaning for a sustained period. A service pistol costing half as much and with a slightly less precise fit might serve more reliably in that role.
So I think it's easier to say what is not a quality pistol... And even there we may not all agree on where the line is, depending on our intended end use and how hard we run our guns.
Magic_Salad0892
04-09-13, 15:13
With handguns, it would be necessary to similarly focus the intent to even begin to have a discussion. Most would probably agree that a high end custom 1911 is a quality gun, but that same gun might not run reliably in mud and rain and with a lack of cleaning for a sustained period.
No offense. But if the 1911 is built right, it will.
There isn't a quality handgun out there that I know of.
Glock Used to own that bragging right.... but they couldn't leave well enough alone. :(
Sig is garbage.... S&W M&P came close.... Springfield??? Not even.
It's a bummer.
brickboy240
04-09-13, 15:45
It sure seems like the Walther PPQ has all the makings of taking top polymer pistol spot.
time will tell...
Magic_Salad0892
04-09-13, 15:47
There isn't a quality handgun out there that I know of.
Glock Used to own that bragging right.... but they couldn't leave well enough alone. :(
Glock is starting to iron out the issue. You don't really hear about new Glocks with the extraction issues.
HK does make a quality gun.
Glock is starting to iron out the issue. You don't really hear about new Glocks with the extraction issues.
HK does make a quality gun.
Yes, HK does make a quality handgun...So far, I've owned a M&P9, Glock 19,HK P2000/with light lem.. The M&P had accuracy issues, The Glock had ejection issues that while Apex's extractor stopped, it then started double feeding, and after carefully following the fitting instructions I could'nt get it to stop..The P-2000 has never given me a problem...I still have it, sold the others, and last week bought a P-30/with lem.. I'll admit, If I could've gotten the G19 to run, I probably would've kept it, It was a nice pistol. However, I place a high value on reliabilty, and accuracy, and it failed me in the reliabilty catagory..For now, I'm going to concentrate on shooting the HK's..
Single shot.
Single Action Revo.
Double Action Revo.
Steel Semi-Auto.
Polymer Semi-Auto.
???
Each type have junk out there you need to avoid.
Each type have extreme high end offerings that some want. And
other have no use for whatsoever.
My pistol choices were based on the very high round count required to compete in a couple matches a week plus training. Matches are held all over the place so I needed a gun I could maintain completely, myself.
This choice is subjective.
:)
I would tell the people here what your gun will be used for and what you are going to spend. You will get many suggestions mind you. But a trend will develop.
theblackknight
04-09-13, 20:13
25 lpi and fossilized mastadon tusk stocks :D
There isn't a quality handgun out there that I know of.
Glock Used to own that bragging right.... but they couldn't leave well enough alone. :(
Sig is garbage.... S&W M&P came close.... Springfield??? Not even.
It's a bummer.
Yeah ok. Hk and Sigs are unreal! Glocks work.
There isn't a quality handgun out there that I know of.
Glock Used to own that bragging right.... but they couldn't leave well enough alone. :(
Sig is garbage.... S&W M&P came close.... Springfield??? Not even.
It's a bummer.
My 2012 Sig 226R is at 7,390 rounds without a stoppage. It is very accurate and a delight to shoot. I put Heinie sights on it, trimmed down the slide stop, but it is otherwise stock.
whiskey lake
04-10-13, 00:55
There is no easy answer to the question. I have had Colts so picky on ammo that I pulled my hair out. Glocks that wouldn't extract, Sig 229 that I don't even want to talk about, piece of crap Beretta, and on and on. In fact, the only manufacturer that I have NEVER had a failure with is HK. Then again, ask a hundred people and get a hundred preferences.
A quality handgun is one that goes BANG every time, can hit the object you point at from the range you need it to and you are comfortable with.
All Quality guns start with the Letter G H S or C
All Quality guns start with the Letter G H S or C
You forgot W :)
Yeah ok. Hk and Sigs are unreal! Glocks work.
The HK45 is a nice pistol. I forgot about that one. Unfortunatley HK guns always command Koolaid fanboy prices. Sig is garbage. And My G17 didn't get your memo that it's supposed to work. ;)
If quality is the number one concern I'd start my search with HK. Todd G did endurance tests with the HK45 and P30 and both made it to a very high round count.
The questions after that are can you live with the expensive mags, limited sight options, and the available trigger systems?
Magic_Salad0892
04-10-13, 09:11
If quality is the number one concern I'd start my search with HK. Todd G did endurance tests with the HK45 and P30 and both made it to a very high round count.
The Glock made it higher than the HK45, or the M&P.
I hope Glock pulls it together. They should reverse engineer their own Gen 1 pistols to see how to do it right.:p
True, but the P30 made it further than the glock, and since it was a G17 I think that's a fair comparison.
The HK45 is a nice pistol. I forgot about that one. Unfortunatley HK guns always command Koolaid fanboy prices. Sig is garbage. And My G17 didn't get your memo that it's supposed to work. ;)
LOL @ 2xSig is garbage! Tell us how you really feel Mark.
At the risk of sounding like a koolaid slurping fanboy, I have to give a nod to HK. My first semi-auto handgun was a USP 45 full size and it has served me flawlessly in countless situations. Some even dangerous (hogs).
I now own 4 Hk pistols in addition to Beretta, Glock, Browning, FN and Colt...My carry permit only lists HKs. My G17Gen3(Mid2000s) got the memo and I recommend that gun (or g19/26) constantly as well.
Only guns worth mentioning I constantly caution against are older XD 40's. Too many bad personal experiences with those guns.
LOL @ 2xSig is garbage! Tell us how you really feel Mark.
In some of the Youtube videos, I see guys getting the sig to fire on the second pull of the trigger with their 9mms.
With the two P220s I played with, the second strike never worked. But we could pull the round out and fire it in one of my 1911s. :rolleyes:
You know you are sucking hind tit if a 1911 is more reliable than your pistol. :D
Psalms144.1
04-10-13, 10:46
As stated before by several, I don't think an apples-to-apples "chart" could be made for current pistol manufacturers. However, I do have my own personal feelings on the subject.
1. Reliability. This is the most important indicator of "quality," IMHO. The pistol absolutely MUST reliably feed, fire, extract and eject with a variety of self defense ammunition. I'll give a break to a pistol that's identified by the manufacturer as requiring a break-in period, as long as it's a short one, and the pistol runs like a raped ape after the break-in.
2. Accuracy. IMHO, pistols being horribly inefficient "stoppers" all around, I need a pistol that can reliably place rounds where I need them under stress. For me, this equates to a bench or machine rested 25 yard 5-shot group at 3" or under. I'll drop that accuracy requirement to the 15 yard line for pistols that are EXCLUSIVELY used as BUGs - like airweight j-frames.
3. Shootability. This is the most subjective category by far, and includes trigger pull weight and "feel," type and quality of sights, and POA/POI issues. I don't care if a pistol will shoot into a single hole at 25 yards from a ransom rest if it has a 15# gritty trigger and crappy sights and you can't hit a cardinal direction in off-had shooting. My "shootability" test is at the 5 yard line, shooting a sheet of paper folded in quarters (giving a target the roughly 4"x5") - five shots as quick as I can. The goal is all hits, and splits under .2 seconds - with shorter splits obviously being "better" as long as all the rounds stay in the target box. POA/POI issues are a pet peeve - I hate a pistol that comes out of the box immediately requiring a sight change because it's not regulated.
For me, I've yet to find a single manufacturer that ALWAYS meets all of those "quality" requirements. Glock 9mms used to be my "go to" answer, but, unfortunately, I've had a string of them that weren't reliable. S&W M&P 9mms that I've shot have not made the accuracy requirements I need. Sigs, if you get one that was made mid-week by an interested employee, are great, but too heavy and bulky for what they deliver. That leaves HK, who meets most of the requirements, but can't deliver a workable trigger, and who charge twice as much as their competitors both for pistols and accessories.
Having said that, if you have a reliable Glock, and accurate M&P, or a shootable HK, I wouldn't look any further.
Regards,
Kevin
Having said that, if you have a reliable Glock, and accurate M&P, or a shootable HK, I wouldn't look any further.
I have one reliable glock, and one Turd. The problem is that my good glock is a 10 plus year old 40 cal G22.... and they don't last forever. :confused:
I'm hoping that Glock can un**** itself over the next few years.
I have had the opportunity to shoot Smith & Wessons, Glocks, HKs, Sigs, Berettas, Colt 1911s, etc. Our department issue service pistol is a Glock 22. At first I thought the Glock was ugly, but I gave it a chance and learned to trust it over the past 12 years. Ergonomics, defensive accuracy, reliability and parts support are all considerations for me. I have seen parts breakages on several different makes of pistols over the past 25 years and both the Glock and HK seem to be the most reliable of the high round count pistols I have serviced and observed being used on the range.
I have 35 years experience with the 1911 platform and it is my favorite pistol to shoot. I still think that Glocks are ugly. I currently own 3 Glock pistols that were manufactured within the past 3 years and have not had any issues with them. Given our success with the department issue pistols and my luck with my personally owned Glock 9mm pistols, I would pick a Glock 9mm as a defensive pistol over any other handgun.
Magic_Salad0892
04-10-13, 11:37
I have one reliable glock, and one Turd. The problem is that my good glock is a 10 plus year old 40 cal G22.... and they don't last forever. :confused:
I'm hoping that Glock can un**** itself over the next few years.
Dude. New production Gen4 + APEX extractor/non-LCI bearing.
Or Gen4 .40.
beschatten
04-10-13, 11:53
I currently own three gen 4 glocks and none of them have had hiccups. all of them were manufactured in 2012.
Small sample, I know, but if its to anyones worth--theres my sample. My only complaint is my 19's trigger sucks balls compared to my other two so dry fire before buying.
I am familiar with the chart and characteristics of quality in the AR platform given the resources from this site.
Does a similar list of information exist for handguns? What are they key things to look for when purchasing a handgun (putting personal preferences aside) when looking for quality?
We can't really discuss quality without first defining requirements. "The Chart" was successful because it at measured against a standard.
I am enjoying the information here... thank you for your contributions, all.
I have had a gen 3 G17 for the past 7 years and it has been fantastic. I just don't have much experience with other brands.
Maybe we could start a list of things to avoid rather than looking for the must-haves?
Dos Cylindros
04-10-13, 13:49
My department issue M&P 40 has been 100% flawless through approximately 5000 rounds thus far. Not even a hint that it is even contemplating a malfunction. The same can be said of my back up M&P 40 full size which was manufactured in October of 2012. My G27, which is ten years old as of this post has likewise never malfunctioned and it probably has 10K throug it easy (I do replace the recoil spring freequently). My newest Gen4 G23 (only a month old) has burned through about 500 rounds and suffered one malfunction which I beleive I may have enduced by hitting the slide with my thumb during the firing cycle.
In my opinion M&P's in 40 are very good guns, and I have never seen one that is issued by my department fail to function (I am a department range master and I see alot of rounds go down range monthly). 40 Glocks as long as they don't have a light on them are also good to go, they just wear out faster. The new Gen4's seem to have solved the light issue as the examples I have seen, seem to be problem free.
HK's are no doubt great guns, but HK's flat refusal to have any kind of customer service turns me off from them. I have no experience with the Wather P series of guns so I can't say. There are alot of quality handgns to choose from.
I think with the AR chart, there is a clear focus on the end goal... A reliable piece of equipment under rigorous combat or self defense use. A gun that meets that very high bar is more than good enough for general use.
With handguns, it would be necessary to similarly focus the intent to even begin to have a discussion.
^^^^^^This.
Does, the chart for AR's apply to all rifles? No. What do you want it to do? General home defense, range/target shooting, concealed carry, or a do it all pistol? Action type? Single action, DA/SA, DAO, striker fired, toggle action?
I just put 100 rounds of mixed FMJ, and JHP through my 72 year old Mauser made P-08 Luger. In the almost 20 years I have owned it, the pistol has NEVER jammed with any ammo. Is it the best for what you want? Maybe.
My department issue M&P 40 has been 100% flawless through approximately 5000 rounds thus far. Not even a hint that it is even contemplating a malfunction. The same can be said of my back up M&P 40 full size which was manufactured in October of 2012. My G27, which is ten years old as of this post has likewise never malfunctioned and it probably has 10K throug it easy (I do replace the recoil spring freequently). My newest Gen4 G23 (only a month old) has burned through about 500 rounds and suffered one malfunction which I beleive I may have enduced by hitting the slide with my thumb during the firing cycle.
In my opinion M&P's in 40 are very good guns, and I have never seen one that is issued by my department fail to function (I am a department range master and I see alot of rounds go down range monthly). 40 Glocks as long as they don't have a light on them are also good to go, they just wear out faster. The new Gen4's seem to have solved the light issue as the examples I have seen, seem to be problem free.
HK's are no doubt great guns, but HK's flat refusal to have any kind of customer service turns me off from them. I have no experience with the Wather P series of guns so I can't say. There are alot of quality handgns to choose from.
HK's CS has been turned around, and is entirely different.. I know, I used it once..It took them awhile, but they (HK) seems to understand that CS can make or break you..Their CS is pretty fast,too I used their CS for a repair several years ago and it took about a week and a half to get my pistol back to me, from what I've read elsewhere, it's now like 3-4 days..Besides, a quality pistol should't be judged by the level customer service from the factory, but,by how little customer service it needed in the first place..
Dos Cylindros
04-10-13, 17:52
HK's CS has been turned around, and is entirely different.. I know, I used it once..It took them awhile, but they (HK) seems to understand that CS can make or break you..Their CS is pretty fast,too I used their CS for a repair several years ago and it took about a week and a half to get my pistol back to me, from what I've read elsewhere, it's now like 3-4 days..Besides, a quality pistol should't be judged by the level customer service from the factory, but,by how little customer service it needed in the first place..
You make a good point, and it is good to hear that HK may be stepping up their game. Their CS and lack of available parts has soured me on them for years. Perhaps I will give them another look.
I am in love with the two Walther PPQ's that I have. I shoot them better than any other handgun. My second favorite is a Sig P239 SaS that has been super reliable and accurate. I do carry my wifes PPS at times because it is so concealable and light and while just as reliable as the above pistols it is not as comfortable to shoot. These work for me YMMV
The HK45 is a nice pistol. I forgot about that one. Unfortunatley HK guns always command Koolaid fanboy prices. Sig is garbage. And My G17 didn't get your memo that it's supposed to work. ;)
Hk 45 and 45C is sick!! Especially when worked on by Grayguns! I just bought a Sig Mark 25 and its heading to Grayguns too. Sweet pistol! Love my Glocks, but they don't hold a candle to the Hk's!
Never saw a bad Glock yet not even my Gen 4 model 21! They just work.
Coal Dragger
04-11-13, 00:11
I'll play.
First of all I am not going to go brand or model bashing since this is a very generalized question that can be applied to a wide variety of makes and models for a wide variety of uses. I suppose since this is the semi-auto handguns section there is no need to describe what makes a quality double action or single action revolver. By the same token I probably don't need to delve into what makes a quality Olympic grade free pistol either.
We will assume that we are talking about a semi-automatic handgun that has a basically functional and reliable design. Not all guns are created equal where this is concerned, but for the sake of argument we will assume that proper execution of a good design will equal a high quality handgun.
So here is what I would visually and by feel look for, and do look for when I am finger banging a pistol that I am thinking of buying but can't really test fire. So after I make sure the pistol is unloaded and clear I inspect the following:
1.) Gun operation smoothness, and "feel"
When I dump the the magazine for initial unload and show clear before finger banging and ogling, I note how smoothly it drops free. Does it hang up, or require me to pull it out? If it does then the gun fails.
Then I cycle the slide a few times, to make sure the chamber isn't loaded. As a bonus you get to feel how smooth the mating surfaces are on the slide and frame rails, and the inside of the slide and outside of the barrel. The gun might be pretty on the outside, but feel like it has sand dumped in it on the inside. If the gun feels rough and gritty cycling, or hangs up it fails. You'll most likely discover this before you can make an internal visual inspection, but if allowed I will always look inside a pistol before I buy it even if it does feel nice and smooth while hand cycling.
Now I check for nice tight lockup of the barrel to slide both at the muzzle, and at the breech. If you get significant movement with your fingers providing pressure the pistol will probably not be very accurate. Make the same checks for slide to frame fit, although not as critical to accuracy as barrel to slide fit it is still helpful and provides a consistent geometry for feeding. I personally don't like really sloppy guns that rattle like a maraca.
Now I run my fingers over the guns exterior looking for undesirable sharp edges that will either cut me, my clothing, or tear up holsters. There's no reason that a service type or carry type pistol should be a snag-o-matic on all of the above.
Grip shape and texture is really subjective from shooter to shooter, and depending on use, but I will look for pinch points or other sharp edges in the wrong places.
I will also test the trigger pull for smoothness and consistent let off. Everyone has different preferences here, but I think we can all agree that a trigger that is gritty, and creepy is not ideal.
2.) Appearance of workmanship and materials.
I want a pistol that is well finished with a nice even finish, be it bluing, bead blasting, nitrocarburizing, whatever. In order for this to be good work it means that the metal has to have been properly finished underneath. So no obvious machine tool marks, burrs, casting flash, or other nastiness. I want nice polished, smooth mating surfaces where there will be metal on metal reciprocation! This includes the outside diameter of the barrel, the inside of the slide where the barrel hood will be dragging, the top and sides of the barrel hood/chamber area, the barrel bushing or barrel opening in the slide, and the slide and frame rails.
I also take a pen light with me to inspect bores and chambers when I can. Same thing here, you want a smooth clean bore and chamber with no obvious burrs, no tool/machine marks, or other nastiness.
For materials I know it is hard sometimes to know exactly what you are dealing with but generally speaking steel, stainless steel, aluminum, or polymer are pretty obvious. We'll have to assume they are the proper alloys, or polymer compounds, heat treated properly, cured properly etc. You may need to do some research before looking to know if there are MIM parts in your pistol of interest if those are a big turn off for you, although you can usually spot the mold marks on those parts if you look carefully. I don't have a problem with MIM for some parts that are not highly stressed.
I do have a pet peeve about iron sights actually being made out of steel. Crazy I know.
If the gun fails any of these tests other than the "iron" sights which can be replaced easy enough, then I would pass on it. If the gun passes the visual inspection it's time to get touchy feely.
3.) Inspect magazines
Same drill as above for appearance of workmanship, and smoothness of operation. I insert and eject the magazine(s) a few times if possible, and push down the followers if possible to make sure they don't hang up inside the magazine body. Generally speaking a magazine that looks like a high school metal shop project is probably going to give you problems.
Hope this huge word fort is helpful.
No unfortunately there is no such list. You have to come read reviews here :D
A quality pistol is the one you trust. For me its XD and HK. I know cool guys don't run XDs, but mine have never given me a reason to doubt them. Yea yea bubba guns and all that shit. Whatever. The best pistol is the one that meets your requirements.
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