View Full Version : Sig hate?
I have owned 4 Sig's in the past, a p239, a P239 SaS , pP229 and a Mosquito. I just picked up a new MK 25 this weekend. They all performed without any malfunctions though 1000's of rounds except the mosquito, and all were accurate and very well made IMO.
I have read so much on the net of Sig's downfall and to "only trust German made examples". I don't understand how they could be screwing up classic P- series to the extent that I read about it. A new design, yea I get that but not on the classics. They are manufactured with CNC equipment, are a tested design and have to be using raw material that meets the design specs per licensing agreements. That only leaves quality control issues.
Are there really that many issues with USA made/assembled Sig's, particularly classic P series or is this just brand X fanboys bashing a product they don't like? I know of 3 people who recently bought new Sig's, including me who have had zero issues.
Just looking for some honest first hand opinions on current quality.
At one time the Sig 9mm classic series guns were bullet proof. Maybe it was the fact there was no internet at the time, but there was a time when hearing about Sig problems was extremely rare. Being that perfect is difficult to maintain, especially in a competitive market. Glock is experiencing that problem right now.
Second, The company definitely had some QC issues not that long ago. Some experienced them, some repeated what they read without ever running a Sig product. And lets be honest here, the P250 was an abomination; the P238 is questionable and the rifles made in the U.S. are still up for debate. None of that helps their credibility.
Also, like everywhere else, internet gun forums have their favorite guns and have their biases. Hating on Sig became the "in" thing for awhile. As a contrast, the M&P 9 use to get a lot of love despite the fact that it had numerous problems. That's not to say that the Sig didn't have problems or that the M&P has had nothing but problems. What it is saying is that both companies' pistols have their benefits and their detriments.
And it comes down to if you want one, buy it and shoot it. If it has problems, send it back to the manufacturer until they get it right or until the point comes that you've had enough of the gun. In which case, sell it or put in the back of the safe. It's no different for Glock,Sig, HK, S&W etc etc. Each has it benefits and detriments. HK might be the best built pistol in the bunch, but the prices for some of the parts and some of the mags is ridiculous; getting parts can sometimes be challenging and aftermarket support can be interesting. So even HK has detriments.
xrayoneone
04-09-13, 23:36
Sig has had and is still having QC problems. Two P239's had out of spec chambers and needed new barrels. One 239 had an impossible to release slide catch and out of spec slide catch area. I sent back a slide assembly for a P229 that was milled so far out of spec it wouldn't fit three different frames. Sig was well aware that they sent out many of these exchange kits that were out of spec. Instead of recalling them or issuing an advisory Sig did nothing. It's over four months since I sent my slide away for replacement.
Sig has problems. I carry Sigs but I don't recommend any new ones.
Salamander
04-09-13, 23:55
My P229 has run OK, it's one of the transition period guns, German frame and New Hampshire slide with the earlier (short) extractor. But then I haven't run it very hard, it's pretty much been a range gun. I use lighter guns for EDC.
One thing I look at is how a manufacturer responds when there are more than a few reports of problems. Smith & Wesson seems to be making an effort to get better, the M&P series seems to be gradually improving over time. Glock is pretending there is no problem. Sig... I'm not seeing any indication of improvement there in anything other than the number of bizarrely fancy models. I'm not following them very closely though, my personal preference has long since evolved beyond metal-frame DA/SA guns. The one I own is an accurate gun with a nice SA trigger, and I may or may not keep it, not sure yet. I'm probably not buying any more though. No personal bad experiences, just not what I want right now.
Hammer_Man
04-10-13, 00:31
I've owned 5 Sigs over the last few years. The first one was a P229 transition gun with a German frame, NH slide, and small extractor. It was always accurate for me, and never gave me problems. My POI, was consistently POA. I sold it due to financial difficulties a few years ago. The next two were P226s, one of them being a new production German gun. The other one was made in NH. The first time I broke them down for inspection, it was imediately apparent, that the fit and finish of the German gun was far superior to the NH gun. The machining of the slide, and the way the nitron finish was applied on the NH gun looked sloppy, and imprecise in comparison to the German gun. It was like night and day. Needless to say I didn't keep the NH gun long. The fourth one was another P229. I missed the first one I bought, so I decided to give Exeter guns another try. I figured maybe they had a bad run, and that enough time had passed to get their act together. When I got it home, I broke it down to give it a cleaning. Sure enough, this one was built just a sloppy as the NH P226 from earlier. After shooting it, I could tell it was not as nice of a shooter as my German framed P229 from a few years ago. With my first P229, POA was POI. The NH P229 would consistently hit low and to the left. I used it as a range gun for a while, but the POA/POI got so annoying, I traded it in not long after I bought it. As of now I'm on the lookout for a NIB P229 with a German frame. I don't think I'm going to buy another NH built Sig, at least not for a while.
TriviaMonster
04-10-13, 00:57
Oh c'mon, no one wants to defend their Mosquito? :p
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
I wouldn't mind trying one of the navy seal wanta be guns. That gun is pretty tried and true. However, I was reading a 2013 rag gun magazine. It listed the new Sigs, it was so many guns, I thought no wonder shit slips out. Too many models.
Wrote a song about it wanna hear it? FREE YOUR MIND!!........wait wrong song.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vx0JXBADOLc
Apricotshot
04-10-13, 06:59
I've had Sigs in the past, a 239 and 220. I just prefer the polymer framed striker fired pistols for serious use for a number of reasons.
I've owned a few SIG's in my time. The first being a a European P220 in .45 ACP I bought in the mid-eighties. A sweet handgun. Never a problem.
My second SIG was a P226 - again an all-German manufactured gun. I purchased it used in the early nineties. Same thing; utterly reliable.
The only SIG I own now is a P229 of the .40 S&W variety. Built in the early nineties with the German frame, NH slide. Short extractor. No surprise here: Slicker than owl snot. Accurate, dependable and no malfunctions whatsoever. I know when I carry it concealed it will work if ever needed. This gun has high round-count through it, too.
I can't speak about the current SIG's, not having one of their current offerings. One thing that makes me ponder is that SIG has way too many models, variations and options out on the market. It's mind-boggling. I recall the days when they only offered a P210, P230, P220, P226 and the P228. Ah, the good ole days.
I have 1 Sig, a p226 9mm that I purchased right after I started grad school which would be summer of 2003 or so. I bought it a few days before they announced the first run of the NSW 226's. I tried to get one of them, but my pistol was already en route to the FFL.
I think it's a NH gun. I can't even remember the last malfunction it had and it eats any 9mm I feed it. The only issue I've ever had with it is that I'm more accurate with a 1911-style trigger, though I suspect more practice would help. I also wish it had a rail but I make due without one.
The finial straw with Sig with me was the shitty customer service.
As far as models I have owned the P's
226,229,228(old model),228R(new model),220,250,239,232, mosquito..
As far as the thumbs down model's ... the 250 (unreliable) and the mosquito(the gun ran solid with mini mags but I didn't care for it as a suppressor host). Both were purchased the first year of production.
IMO the product line is kind of like a two bit whore. (she does a little of everything just not very well)
SIG has lost .mil / . gov business over the past 10 years and has expanded the civilian targeted business. Hence the crazy colors, finishes, and CCW targeted firearms (P238/P938/P290).
I think several models in the lineup are bulletproof, or as bulletproof as Glock "brass to the face" is these days. Such as the P226, P228 (yes, supposedly discontinued but they keep coming back), P229, and P239. The P220 is close, probably fine these days but they had issues when SIG went to stainless slides and kept the internal extractor, but since going to external extractors they seem to be back on the step. SP2022s seem to be making a comeback as well, with initial issues as they started making them in the US, but they seem to have been corrected.
Suspect SIGs (IMO) are the P250 (lost the FAM and Netherlands contracts, also passed over by the BATFE), P238, P938, 1911s, P290s. Also the Skeeter is crap too.
With the P224 and P227, time will tell if they meet SIGs former reputation or continue down the crapper. I think SIG has learned a lot the past couple of years of putting a number of poorly QC'ed / Beta tested firearms on the market (P250, P238, P938, 1911s, and P290s) and hopefully that is the reason the P224/227 are taking so long.
They also had some issues with their rifles (556R a prime example). It also doesn't help that they put SIG branded Chinese knockoff stuff on their products (Aimpoint type RDS, lights and lasers, as well as crappy "Swiss Style" stocks on the 556s).
In the end, if someone said I had to carry / use a SIG, I'd be happy with a P226/P229/P239 in any / all calibers and some of the models (Dark Elites have crappy adjustable night sights that don't hold a zero). If I had to choose, I'd probably take a P226/9MM for HD and P239/9MM for CCW if I HAD TO use SIGs.
But since I don't, I give my money to HK primarily, with S&W J-frames still dependable, and the Ruger LCP as my only micro pistol. Older Glock 19s too.
Again, YMMV...
legumeofterror
04-10-13, 10:17
People seem to forget that SigSauers were the "cheap" German pistols, and they only reason they gained any ground was their ability to undercut Walther and H&K for police contracts in Germany.
kihnspiracy
04-10-13, 11:44
I have owned a dozen or so Sig 226's and 229's over the years. Every single one of the was an accurate, solid, dependable pistol. The only Sig I currently own is a 226 MK25. I like it so much that I am on the hunt for another one.
brickboy240
04-10-13, 11:49
I have the following SIG pistols:
1977 P220 W.German made
1982 P225 Swiss made
1991 P228 W. German made
All have been trouble free guns that have several thousands through each and not even a whimper. Even the P220...which is supposed to be a problem child of the P-series line.
The 9mms are extremely accurate and a joy to shoot.
I don't get the SIG hate but then again mine are older guns.
-brickboy240
Our issued handguns are P229R (.40cal) and I'm currently on my third one. We (DHS-ICE) have had so many problems with ours. I've not been able to compare ours to a store bought Sig, but the quality of ours is very lacking. I have a feeling they just push them out as fast as they can for their DHS contract and just don't give a shit. We had to change ammo from 155gr to 180gr because the guns couldn't handle it. I'm a firearms instructor and we're seeing loose front and rear sights, cracked barrels, cracked slides and slides shooting off while shooting, bad recoil and trigger springs and grip screws falling out because the steel grip screws are stripping the threads of the aluminum grip frame. Some of our agents carry issued P239(.40cal) for secondary weapons and those need to be kept extremely wet or they will jam. ive yet to see one function 100% during quarterly quals. DHS just authorized the Glock 17 for duty carry if bought with personal funds and many agents from my office are buying them up, including myself. many of us already carry a G26 as a secondary/backup so it just makes sense. We suspect we'll be transitioning to them within a year or so starting at FLETC.
Apricotshot
04-10-13, 14:04
Our issued handguns are P229R (.40cal) and I'm currently on my third one. We (DHS-ICE) have had so many problems with ours. I've not been able to compare ours to a store bought Sig, but the quality of ours is very lacking. I have a feeling they just push them out as fast as they can for their DHS contract and just don't give a shit. We had to change ammo from 155gr to 180gr because the guns couldn't handle it. I'm a firearms instructor and we're seeing loose front and rear sights, cracked barrels, cracked slides and slides shooting off while shooting, bad recoil and trigger springs and grip screws falling out because the steel grip screws are stripping the threads of the aluminum grip frame. Some of our agents carry issued P239(.40cal) for secondary weapons and those need to be kept extremely wet or they will jam. ive yet to see one function 100% during quarterly quals. DHS just authorized the Glock 17 for duty carry if bought with personal funds and many agents from my office are buying them up, including myself. many of us already carry a G26 as a secondary/backup so it just makes sense. We suspect we'll be transitioning to them within a year or so starting at FLETC.
Damn ICE buying up all the Glock 17s!:sarcastic:
Damn ICE buying up all the Glock 17s!:sarcastic:
LOL, us and the British Military I'm told.
Coal Dragger
04-10-13, 14:29
I have a 2007 manufactured SIG P229, and other than the DAK trigger (which is complete rubbish) it has been a great gun. No problems at all, and both the .357SIG barrel and .40S&W barrel are accurate and reliable.
Because of the horrible trigger I am looking to sell it, so if anyone likes the DAK trigger system let me know. I just don't like the trigger and don't see any good reason to dump a bunch of money into changing it.
Maineshooter
04-10-13, 22:43
As far as the thumbs down model's ... the 250 (unreliable) and the mosquito(the gun ran solid with mini mags but I didn't care for it as a suppressor host). Both were purchased the first year of production.
IMO the product line is kind of like a two bit whore. (she does a little of everything just not very well)
I have no particular problem with sigs in general (I don't own ad don't shoot them). But the quote above is right on the money. The 250 is a piece of crap. I know several people at a larger dept. that were issued the 250s. They quickly became nicknamed the "maybe gun" (as in maybe it will go bang). Parts galore were replaced, including trigger bars and the problems were not corrected. Sig did not stand behind their product and the dept. ended up pulling the plug, liquidating the 250s and buying glocks.
I have a 2007 manufactured SIG P229, and other than the DAK trigger (which is complete rubbish) it has been a great gun. No problems at all, and both the .357SIG barrel and .40S&W barrel are accurate and reliable.
Because of the horrible trigger I am looking to sell it, so if anyone likes the DAK trigger system let me know. I just don't like the trigger and don't see any good reason to dump a bunch of money into changing it.
The terms "great gun" and "DAK trigger" are mutually exclusive when it comes to SIGs.
Coal Dragger
04-10-13, 23:04
The terms "great gun" and "DAK trigger" are mutually exclusive when it comes to SIGs.
You have a point.....
OK how about this: mechanically reliable, and mechanically accurate. Handicapped with a useless trigger.
Alaskapopo
04-11-13, 01:46
You have a point.....
OK how about this: mechanically reliable, and mechanically accurate. Handicapped with a useless trigger.
That is how I feel about the HK lem as well.
Pat
Coal Dragger
04-11-13, 03:26
That is how I feel about the HK lem as well.
Pat
At least the LEM stages so you can use it like an SA trigger. Sort of at least. The last P30 I handled didn't seem that bad, not great but not bad. Not much worse than the V1 variant trigger I also played with in a P30. The reset on both seemed pretty long, and both had a lot of take up.
An HK45 or HK45C might be my next carry gun if the SIG finds a new home though. Probably go with a V1 or V9 if I do it. I'm a 1911 guy at heart and cocked and locked doesn't bother me in the least.
I know of 3 people who recently bought new Sig's, including me who have had zero issues.
Just looking for some honest first hand opinions on current quality.
This is the key, for me. I've posted the story elsewhere here already, but I used to be quite the Sig standard bearer at one time. I carried (and still own) a 226 9mm from circa 1988 that has served me well.
The new Sigs, on the other hand, have been utter failures for me. I've had two catastrophic failures on two different weapons in the past 7 years. I've had a slide crack on me (P228, during a course of fire at a FLETC course) and a roll pin shear as well (P229, during FI school). In addition my current agency finally switched to M&Ps after a rash of broken hammer struts (right around the same time as my roll pin issue).
There's a big difference between "operating flawlessly" for a recent purchase and long term wear and tear and structural longevity. My distaste for the newer Sigs has nothing to do with their day to day operational capability, but rather their long term material failures - to which I've been a first hand witness. In both cases the weapons in question were reliable and ate whatever I threw at them - right up to the point they failed structurally.
Caveat: I could not give you a round count on either weapon. They were issued to me in used condition. But still...
From 2003-2011 I had my first issued P229 and it ran like an absolute champ. An easy estimate is 15k rounds maybe up to 20k rounds through it with ZERO weapon related malfunctions. I had 1 double feed because I failed to seat the mag home.
My current issued P229R, which I was so happy to get issued a rail gun, was manufactured in 6/10. It is a great, accurate gun BUT on heavy range days it will start to randomly fail to lock back on an empty magazine. You can almost begin to fell the slide "slowing down" and failing to lock.
This was unheard of for my original P229. My team goes away to FITG for 3 days of training once or twice a year and we shoot a butt ton of rounds and I would intentionally not clean it just for curiosity sake. ZERO malfunctions. I don't even attempt this with my "R", it will malfunction.
And I was somewhat put off by SIG's video online suggesting that the failure to lock back was probably the shooter's thumb hitting the slide release. Yeah, right SIG... I have 15-20k muscle memory shots through my P229 and just up and forgot it all when issued the "R". Give me a break...
You can almost begin to fell the slide "slowing down" and failing to lock.
Out of curiosity, have you checked the sear pivot or spring pins? I remember this happening to one of our weapons as well. The pin would slowly work its way into the rail grove and impede the slide.
I have a stable full of Sig handguns ranging from early 90s P228s to current production P226s and everything in between. I have had nothing but flawless reliability from all of them. You can tell by my screenname, Sig is my weapon of choice when it comes to handguns.
Psalms144.1
04-11-13, 11:41
About five years ago, I was one of the biggest Sig-bashers going - but that was based on a string of personal experiences with crappy CS and parts availability that spread over the course of about three years.
Nowadays I generally stand mute on the subject, because I simply have no basis to judge. My 2008-produced DHS-contract P229R DAK in .40 sits in my safe for 363 days a year, and gets fired a total of 120 rounds per year while I carry a personal weapon on a daily basis. I will say that, compared to my pre-2005 P228s and P226s, the fit and finish on my pistol is noticeably poor, and the accuracy is worse than any other pistol I shoot for work, with the possible exception of my 642 BUG.
Having said that, even if I COULD get my old issued P228 (M11) back, it probably wouldn't see any more use than my current issue, based on size/capacity/weight issues compared to my other options (P2000, P30, G19, or G23).
I've gotten over my hatred for Sig, and now I just watch as a disinterested observer. I do long for the good old days, when Sig-Sauer made about five models, and they were all dead nuts reliable and accurate. Maybe we'll get back there, but I think the current regime in Exeter is just too interested in profit margins to ever bring the brand back to its old standard.
Regards,
Kevin
twistedcomrade
04-11-13, 15:33
My example of one CPO 226 has been good. Would I buy another Sig, yes. I think the main problem with Sig is that their good products are really good and their bad products are really freaking bad. The bad ones get a lot of attention. Also, as mentioned previously, Sig using cheap accessories, such as there horendous BUIS and scopes, brings them down.
I've gotten over my hatred for Sig, and now I just watch as a disinterested observer.
This is where I stand. I have had them, and really liked them, and of the ones I had only one needed any work. That said, CS sucked (for me) and, although I like them and shoot them well, right now, for me, there are better options.
I think part of SIG's problem was adding multiple variants and new models, diluting the gene pool so to speak. Instead of making a few really, really well, now they make a bunch so-so. I know this has been addressed in previous threads, so I won't hammer it.
Texpatriate
04-11-13, 16:52
Oh c'mon, no one wants to defend their Mosquito? :p
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
My experience with the Mosquito hasn't been that bad, though I've heard of others having problems. Mine runs like a clock with mini-mags, and is only slightly less reliable with federal bulk pack. The cheaper you go, the more reliability problems it has, which is pretty typical for many/most .22lr semi-auto pistols. Fun little pistol to shoot. It's on the EE right now, but mostly because I've gone away from Sigs in general in favor of M&P's. I like how the M&P 22 is the exact same size and dimensions as the M&P 9 and 40, and wish Sig would have done the same with the Mosquito though.
S. Galbraith
04-11-13, 18:56
People seem to forget that SigSauers were the "cheap" German pistols, and they only reason they gained any ground was their ability to undercut Walther and H&K for police contracts in Germany.
Not really. The P9 and VP70 used stamped steel slides, along with polymer overmold frames. If anything, most of the H&K pistols of the 1970s were cheaper to manufacture than the alloy framed Sig counterparts. H&K works almost entirely on contract guns, meaning that they have to be competitively priced. Sigs were just all around better guns in those days which is why H&K wasn't as successful as Sig.
The classic Sig line is an all around good design. Good reliability, good durability, good accuracy, and probably one of the best DA/SA triggers around. Some do not like the higher bore axis, the DA/SA trigger, or other aspects of the ergonomics. Like most Teutonic designs, form follows function..........meaning that the design is sound, so make your body adapt to it. Like any firearm, the more you train with it the better you get. I actually prefer to shoot .40 or .357sig in classic Sigs, as the design makes these calibers quite comfy to shoot(versus Glock/Steyr/M&P). As long as the appropriate materials, and quality controls are used........it is an excellent pistol. As long as the appropriate materials, and quality controls are used.......................................................................................................................................*rolls eyes*
Out of curiosity, have you checked the sear pivot or spring pins? I remember this happening to one of our weapons as well. The pin would slowly work its way into the rail grove and impede the slide.
Sadly, that is Greek to me (part of the reason for a new membership here).
Is that something that would clear itself up during a cleaning? That always seems to be the case. A few hundred rounds and it slows down, clean it, functions flawlessly on the next tac day until it gets a few hundren rounds.
Is that something that would clear itself up during a cleaning? That always seems to be the case. A few hundred rounds and it slows down, clean it, functions flawlessly on the next tac day until it gets a few hundren rounds.
The pins I'm referring to (most likely the sear spring pin of the two) are located on the frame just behind the slide catch lever in the rails (see the pic below). If one of the pins (like I said, probably the front one - IIRC) gets loose and works into the slide it can seriously impede things.
As far as cleaning having an effect on "clearing it up", I suppose that's possible. Vigorous brushing might push the pin back in. You might think you would notice if the pin were protruding, but I suspect it would only take a tiny protrusion to cause malfunctions.
As I mentioned earlier, I've seen this happen to at least one gun (a 229 in .357sig).
Next time you are at the range, check the pins and make sure they are fully flush. Fire the weapon and if the malfunctions begin to occur, gently remove the slide and see if either pin has shifted into the rail area. Even the tiniest bit would have an effect on proper functioning.
The forward most pin in this pic (pulled from calguns - I don't have a sig handy to photograph) is the most likely culprit:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/13733808/sig2.jpg
The pins I'm referring to (most likely the sear spring pin of the two) are located on the frame just behind the slide catch lever in the rails (see the pic below). If one of the pins (like I said, probably the front one - IIRC) gets loose and works into the slide it can seriously impede things.
Thanks. I'll take a peek this Tuesday.
Thanks for those who posted actual first hand accounts vs. "Sig sucks" without having a modern example even an example to draw their conclusions from.
It looks more people are upset that Sig went from a professionals gun with few options to a flavor for every consumer gun with less use by police / military in a see of more modern designs.
It seems that they don't have any more issues than most manufacturers, just a faltering fan base but are still a viable option.
I am just back from the Rogers Shooting School this week, where I put 2,500 rounds thru my 2012 P226R this week, with just two passes of a bore snake and a bit of grease representing care for the week. This gets this pistol to 8,590 rounds since new without a stoppage.
I have really enjoyed coming up the learning curve with the Sig platform since I started shooting it in January. I agree it takes more effort to shoot well, but the 226 performs well if you are willing to put in the effort to learn the DA/SA trigger. I was able to shoot Advanced at Rogers with the 226, and my overall scores were essentially the same as I have been able to do with a Glock, M&P and HK.
I wouldn't worry about what others say too much on the errornet. While there's a few good nuggets here and there, there's also a lot of BS and bandwagonism.
Every one of my SIGs have been outstanding pistols, and so have my co workers. My duty P226R 9mm has over 30k rounds through it, and the only malfunction that I can remember is when doing close contact drills, the slide may have hit my vest causing a FTE. My P239 9mm's have also been failure free with about 3k rounds each.
Having owned and used SIG classic P series professionally for over 15 years, I will say that they are still one of the best available today. The most recent models with the SS slides are much better hard use weapons. The older carbon slide SIGs require more maintenance, have crappy finishes and aren't as durable as the newer models. I'm not the only one to share that thought either. Many who have used them extensively, in every condition, and fire more rounds than anyone on this forum, feel the same way.
If I didn't have full confidence in my SIGs, I would trade them tomorrow for HK's. If I didn't believe that SIGs were up to snuff, I wouldn't have spent $850 on a Mk25 two months ago. I fully expect it to perform just as well as my other US and German SIGs.
Some have blamed SIGs "QC" on loosing contracts. While a few of the statements may be true, you can say the same about every other brand. Honestly, if you look at the "gun centric" organizations that have carried SIGs for years, they have not moved away from them. A lot of the tier 1 SOF around world still choose to carry and select the P22X series as their issued sidearms. That wouldn't be the case if they didn't work.
The last time I got into a "SIG hate" discussion here, one of the SME's on the forum sent me this....
I wouldn't get to wrapped around the axle with these SIG Sauer debates. The Teams and many other professional gunfighter orgs carry and use them with confidence.
SIG Sauer isn't exactly hurting for sales.. You could say they are laughing all the way to the bank regardless of the perception of the random negative reports found on gun forums via the net.
I wouldn't worry about what others say too much on the errornet. While there's a few good nuggets here and there, there's also a lot of BS and bandwagonism.
Every one of my SIGs have been outstanding pistols, and so have my co workers. My duty P226R 9mm has over 30k rounds through it, and the only malfunction that I can remember is when doing close contact drills, the slide may have hit my vest causing a FTE. My P239 9mm's have also been failure free with about 3k rounds each.
Having owned and used SIG classic P series professionally for over 15 years, I will say that they are still one of the best available today. The most recent models with the SS slides are much better hard use weapons. The older carbon slide SIGs require more maintenance, have crappy finishes and aren't as durable as the newer models. I'm not the only one to share that thought either. Many who have used them extensively, in every condition, and fire more rounds than anyone on this forum, feel the same way.
If I didn't have full confidence in my SIGs, I would trade them tomorrow for HK's. If I didn't believe that SIGs were up to snuff, I wouldn't have spent $850 on a Mk25 two months ago. I fully expect it to perform just as well as my other US and German SIGs.
Some have blamed SIGs "QC" on loosing contracts. While a few of the statements may be true, you can say the same about every other brand. Honestly, if you look at the "gun centric" organizations that have carried SIGs for years, they have not moved away from them. A lot of the tier 1 SOF around world still choose to carry and select the P22X series as their issued sidearms. That wouldn't be the case if they didn't work.
The last time I got into a "SIG hate" discussion here, one of the SME's on the forum sent me this....
Agreed. I still wouldn't trade mine for anything else.
The pins I'm referring to (most likely the sear spring pin of the two) are located on the frame just behind the slide catch lever in the rails (see the pic below). If one of the pins (like I said, probably the front one - IIRC) gets loose and works into the slide it can seriously impede things.
As far as cleaning having an effect on "clearing it up", I suppose that's possible. Vigorous brushing might push the pin back in. You might think you would notice if the pin were protruding, but I suspect it would only take a tiny protrusion to cause malfunctions.
As I mentioned earlier, I've seen this happen to at least one gun (a 229 in .357sig).
Next time you are at the range, check the pins and make sure they are fully flush. Fire the weapon and if the malfunctions begin to occur, gently remove the slide and see if either pin has shifted into the rail area. Even the tiniest bit would have an effect on proper functioning.
The forward most pin in this pic (pulled from calguns - I don't have a sig handy to photograph) is the most likely culprit:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/13733808/sig2.jpg
Looked at it today at work. The "head" of the pin is mirrored that suggests to me it's been rubbing. It also looks like the pin head has a little lip on it at the bottom and I think I can see where it has worn a straight line in my slide.
Interesting...thanks
Suwannee Tim
04-13-13, 14:44
I have owned a dozen or so SIGs over the years, never had a problem with any of them be they made in NH, Germany or both. The NH guns were all well made, good fit and finish. Then I bought a P250 which was the worst jammamatic I have ever seen. Strangely, it wouldn't jam for them even though I sent it back twice. Eventually they replaced it with a new gun which the dealer accepted for full credit. I will never go through that again, not with SIG at least.
I have old and new Sigs and have never had a problem with any of them. I wouldn't be surprised if they experienced some quality problems while filling the DHS contract. They had to ramp up, new workers, etc. All sorts of problems waiting to happen.
Bulldog7972
04-14-13, 08:20
Agreed. I still wouldn't trade mine for anything else.
I agree wth both of you. I own nine or ten Sigs and have never had a problem with any of them.
Our issued handguns are P229R (.40cal) and I'm currently on my third one. We (DHS-ICE) have had so many problems with ours. I've not been able to compare ours to a store bought Sig, but the quality of ours is very lacking. I have a feeling they just push them out as fast as they can for their DHS contract and just don't give a shit. We had to change ammo from 155gr to 180gr because the guns couldn't handle it. I'm a firearms instructor and we're seeing loose front and rear sights, cracked barrels, cracked slides and slides shooting off while shooting, bad recoil and trigger springs and grip screws falling out because the steel grip screws are stripping the threads of the aluminum grip frame. Some of our agents carry issued P239(.40cal) for secondary weapons and those need to be kept extremely wet or they will jam. ive yet to see one function 100% during quarterly quals. DHS just authorized the Glock 17 for duty carry if bought with personal funds and many agents from my office are buying them up, including myself. many of us already carry a G26 as a secondary/backup so it just makes sense. We suspect we'll be transitioning to them within a year or so starting at FLETC.
I'm with you on the Sig 229 DAK; it is the worst handgun I ever carried in close to 15 years of Government Service, and my Glock 17 is awaiting approval for duty carry when I get back CONUS. I do miss the Glock 19, and only wish NFTTU would have allowed us to carry the Glock 19's again.
I bought my new P226 about six months ago plain 226 no special model it is accurate and reliable. I have about 750-850 rounds through it so far. All I did was add some hogue G-10 grips.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Xparent BlueTapatalk 2
I was issued a P229R .40 six years ago. Fired many rounds through it and the only problem I had with it was the firing pin positioning pin in the slide fractured. The dept armorer said I dry fired it too many times. Oh, but what a butter smooth trigger it has now!:)
I bought a half dozen new Sigs 2 years ago. All but one had to go back to Sig for bad mags, barrel fit and one bent trigger bars.
One of my favorite guns of all time was my P226 Tacops but I went through 3 sets of 4 mags till the problems were solved. (These were 20rd Checkmate mags. They finally solved the issue by giving me 4 USED Mecgar mags. They were given to me by a CS rep from his personal stash. CS was always great but I was irritated that I had to keep talking to them.
I was talking up my Sigs to my friends who at the time were in awe of Sigs reputation, then when 3 of 4 of my guns failed on a fun shoot, I was left with egg on my face. One of the triggers was completely locked up, and the hammer was stuck to the rear. ...all factory FMJ ammo.
All guns fail, I get that. I'm now a civilian, I don't want to deal with cost cutting, poor customer service or sub par designs. I don't want to deal with manufacturing ass-saving Bull crap terms like, "Break In period."
I was practically told to get bent by S&W's custom shop CS for one of their revolvers.
Now I only Shoot Hk's. I've had used Customer service from handguns Manufacturer I've ever bought from except Hk. I'm at 20k with my first Hk and it doesn't appear to be slowing down yet. Nor have any of my other Hk's.
I'm limited with using Glocks to only my G26's. I've never had to deal w/ their Warranty or CS. Could be the fact that I never shot them as often or as much as my other primary training/carrying pistol.
No gun is perfect but I expect it to work when it needs to.
YMMV, I'm just a consumer.
Fired many rounds through it and the only problem I had with it was the firing pin positioning pin in the slide fractured. The dept armorer said I dry fired it too many times. Oh, but what a butter smooth trigger it has now!
My experience with my 226R 9mm mirrors yours. I've put roughly 7k rounds through mine. Just had to replace the firing pin positioning pin (What a PIA that was!) due to TONS of dry firing. When first getting used to the gun I had to teach myself not to ride the slide release (Shot 1911's before the Sig). At first thought it was the gun..Nope, just me!
So besides from user error, It's been flawless. (Build date for it is 04/20/2010 IIRC)
My experience with my 226R 9mm mirrors yours. I've put roughly 7k rounds through mine. Just had to replace the firing pin positioning pin (What a PIA that was!) due to TONS of dry firing. When first getting used to the gun I had to teach myself not to ride the slide release (Shot 1911's before the Sig). At first thought it was the gun..Nope, just me!
So besides from user error, It's been flawless. (Build date for it is 04/20/2010 IIRC)
Nice! Oh, and I still ride the slide stop. It's a bad habit, that's for sure;)
I bought a half dozen new Sigs 2 years ago. All but one had to go back to Sig for bad mags, barrel fit and one bent trigger bars.
One of my favorite guns of all time was my P226 Tacops but I went through 3 sets of 4 mags till the problems were solved. (These were 20rd Checkmate mags. They finally solved the issue by giving me 4 USED Mecgar mags. They were given to me by a CS rep from his personal stash. CS was always great but I was irritated that I had to keep talking to them.
I was talking up my Sigs to my friends who at the time were in awe of Sigs reputation, then when 3 of 4 of my guns failed on a fun shoot, I was left with egg on my face. One of the triggers was completely locked up, and the hammer was stuck to the rear. ...all factory FMJ ammo.
All guns fail, I get that. I'm now a civilian, I don't want to deal with cost cutting, poor customer service or sub par designs. I don't want to deal with manufacturing ass-saving Bull crap terms like, "Break In period."
I was practically told to get bent by S&W's custom shop CS for one of their revolvers.
Now I only Shoot Hk's. I've had used Customer service from handguns Manufacturer I've ever bought from except Hk. I'm at 20k with my first Hk and it doesn't appear to be slowing down yet. Nor have any of my other Hk's.
I'm limited with using Glocks to only my G26's. I've never had to deal w/ their Warranty or CS. Could be the fact that I never shot them as often or as much as my other primary training/carrying pistol.
No gun is perfect but I expect it to work when it needs to.
YMMV, I'm just a consumer.
What kind of failures at the range? Are your pistols USA or German?
I have the following:
P220
P238
P938
SWAT 522
I have not had issues with any, though the trigger feel of the P938 is nothing like its smaller brother. The trigger feels gritty. There are reports of people having failures with their respective pistol, though I haven't had reliability issues after the first 150 rounds.
Our issued handguns are P229R (.40cal) and I'm currently on my third one. We (DHS-ICE) have had so many problems with ours. I've not been able to compare ours to a store bought Sig, but the quality of ours is very lacking. I have a feeling they just push them out as fast as they can for their DHS contract and just don't give a shit. We had to change ammo from 155gr to 180gr because the guns couldn't handle it. I'm a firearms instructor and we're seeing loose front and rear sights, cracked barrels, cracked slides and slides shooting off while shooting, bad recoil and trigger springs and grip screws falling out because the steel grip screws are stripping the threads of the aluminum grip frame. Some of our agents carry issued P239(.40cal) for secondary weapons and those need to be kept extremely wet or they will jam. ive yet to see one function 100% during quarterly quals. DHS just authorized the Glock 17 for duty carry if bought with personal funds and many agents from my office are buying them up, including myself. many of us already carry a G26 as a secondary/backup so it just makes sense. We suspect we'll be transitioning to them within a year or so starting at FLETC.
Sometimes I have to wonder if much of the QC problems are related to caliber choices. That is to say, it seems like many of the alloy framed pistols (and a few of the polymer) did not adapt well to the higher pressure LE loads with the advent of the 357Sig and 40SW. Beretta and S&W also had problems making the jump to 40SW.
I think that Sig foresaw some of this issues and tried to address them with the stronger milled slide on the P229. However, the fact remains that any alloy framed pistol shooting these higher pressured calibers will require much more maintenance when compared to their 9mm brethren.
In other words, stick to 9mm is Sig and you will be fine.
I've had my fair share of Sigs over the years and maybe I've been lucky, but I haven't had any issue whatsoever. P229 x3, P226, P228, P239, P232.....all have functioned just fine and look great too.
DAVID RICHARDS
04-28-13, 09:34
This is just my experience. I have owned 8-9 SIG's. Still have about half a dozen. All but two are German made. The ones that are not are early ersions of the 239 and 229. Every single SIG I have is bulletproof. Never had one not fire. Superbly accurate. One has over 30,000 rounds through it. It rattles and shakes but still shoots as good as the day I bought it. The only POS I've had is a SIG Mosquito which is not even made by SIG. Zinc slide crap.
Once the former head of Kimber became president of SIG we began to see every kind of special addition SIG you could think of. Beavertails, rainbow finishes, diamond finishes, and so on. Quality definately took a hit. Started seeing SIG's with messed up finishes. Problems out of the box. Recalls and so on. Tring to send $1000.00 guns with one magazine. Switch to cheaper made magzines. And so on. And the 250 at least at first was junk. P238, it's bigger 9mm brother needing recalls.
On the opposite side some new products came out that definately fill a need. They backed off on the single mag. They came out with some rifle that were iffy. E2 grip was nice for people with smaller hands. So their is good and bad. All I will say is that you now stand a greater chance of getting a troublesome SIG than ever before. Most get fixed. but it's they want a lot of money for a gun that often has to go back right out of the box. Still reading of burnt out sights from the box. Sights falling off. If I were to buy one today I would strip it down and look it over carefully.
S. Galbraith
04-28-13, 10:12
Sometimes I have to wonder if much of the QC problems are related to caliber choices. That is to say, it seems like many of the alloy framed pistols (and a few of the polymer) did not adapt well to the higher pressure LE loads with the advent of the 357Sig and 40SW. Beretta and S&W also had problems making the jump to 40SW.
I think that Sig foresaw some of this issues and tried to address them with the stronger milled slide on the P229. However, the fact remains that any alloy framed pistol shooting these higher pressured calibers will require much more maintenance when compared to their 9mm brethren.
In other words, stick to 9mm is Sig and you will be fine.
At least for DOI, our older .40cal Sigs have been superb. Most of ours are 2004 models off of the original DHS contract. 9mm Sigs will obviously last longer before breaking anything, since many of the small parts interchange from the 9mm models to the .40 models. A take down lever used in a 9mm, will take less punishment that the same take down lever used in the .40. The biggest problem we are facing with 9mm Sigs right now, is the increased recoil spring weight that Sig now uses to compensate for +P and +P+ ammo. When we run lower recoiling frangible, or other training ammo it will not reliably cycle the gun. The .40 has more of a standard power band, and just about anything we put through them runs reliably. On the Federal side, we continue to go more and more .40 heavy for a number of reasons.
At least for DOI, our older .40cal Sigs have been superb. Most of ours are 2004 models off of the original DHS contract. 9mm Sigs will obviously last longer before breaking anything, since many of the small parts interchange from the 9mm models to the .40 models. A take down lever used in a 9mm, will take less punishment that the same take down lever used in the .40. The biggest problem we are facing with 9mm Sigs right now, is the increased recoil spring weight that Sig now uses to compensate for +P and +P+ ammo. When we run lower recoiling frangible, or other training ammo it will not reliably cycle the gun. The .40 has more of a standard power band, and just about anything we put through them runs reliably. On the Federal side, we continue to go more and more .40 heavy for a number of reasons.
Most of the problems that I hear regarding Sigs comes from pistols produced between 2004-2011 that are in calibers other than 9mm. My suspicion is that Sig's decision to outsource certain small parts was a driving force behind these problems. Now, there may be some selection bias since 40/357 was growing in popularity at the time. However, I could not help but notice that the vast majority of problems were due to small parts failures in 40/357 caliber weapons. For example, I did not hear about a significant spike in M11 failures during my deployment to CENTCOM in 2007 and 2009, but we only had 4 or 5 people using this weapon.
All of my Sigs in 40, 357, and 45 are all pre-2004, and I've had no problems. I took a break from Sig from 2005-2012 at the recommendation of Todd Green and other SME's who put out a warning notice. However, I've recently jumped back into the fray with a few special run pistols. One was a 228R with stamped German slide that was produced last year. The other is a MK25 that I was able to find below $900 which is what you pay for a run of the mill 226 at most local shops. I've only got 600 rounds through the 228 and the MK25 arrives this week. Hopefully my luck will continue...
The biggest problem we are facing with 9mm Sigs right now, is the increased recoil spring weight that Sig now uses to compensate for +P and +P+ ammo. When we run lower recoiling frangible, or other training ammo it will not reliably cycle the gun. The .40 has more of a standard power band, and just about anything we put through them runs reliably. On the Federal side, we continue to go more and more .40 heavy for a number of reasons.
All of my 9mm Sig's are either 228 or 226 because I have a metric ton of replacement parts including recoil springs. Some people use the 229 in 9mm which has a heavier spring than the 228 due to its more robust slide. However, I intentionally shy away from the 229 in 9mm since the 228 has a proven track record of cycling 9mm at various pressures.
Beware ALL of Sig's MIM parts. As of last year they were made by a company called IndoMIM and a shit load had to be reworked in the States. Now there is no goddamned way to "rework" small MIM parts without removing the hardened case layer leaving the softer core.
Stay away. Sig has shit the bed.
"One man with courage makes a majority."
Beware ALL of Sig's MIM parts. As of last year they were made by a company called IndoMIM and a shit load had to be reworked in the States. Now there is no goddamned way to "rework" small MIM parts without removing the hardened case layer leaving the softer core.
Stay away. Sig has shit the bed.
"One man with courage makes a majority."
Quite sad to hear. I would like a SIG, but I couldn't find myself to buy one new.
Beware ALL of Sig's MIM parts. As of last year they were made by a company called IndoMIM and a shit load had to be reworked in the States. Now there is no goddamned way to "rework" small MIM parts without removing the hardened case layer leaving the softer core.
Stay away. Sig has shit the bed.
"One man with courage makes a majority."
What source is your info from?
Indo-US MIM actually makes parts for Remington, Marlin, and other gun makers. I heard they were doing some SIG parts too. The products are supposedly made by them and finished in the U.S.
I have a batch of newer MIM SIG parts and the finishing quality is much better than whoever they used as a supplier back around 2008.
Well made MIM isn't a problem, regardless of what country it's made in.
S. Galbraith
04-29-13, 12:57
Indo-US MIM actually makes parts for Remington, Marlin, and other gun makers. I heard they were doing some SIG parts too. The products are supposedly made by them and finished in the U.S.
I have a batch of newer MIM SIG parts and the finishing quality is much better than whoever they used as a supplier back around 2008.
Well made MIM isn't a problem, regardless of what country it's made in.
H&K uses many MIM parts on their handguns now days. It all depends on the quality of the MIM process, and how the part is implimented into the gun.
Yep. I've been told the process is one of the reasons SIG went to the new long extractor. Easier to avoid MIM problems in its manufacture.
HK has pretty strict QC on their MIM hence their limited to near zero issues.
S. Galbraith
04-29-13, 22:26
Yep. I've been told the process is one of the reasons SIG went to the new long extractor. Easier to avoid MIM problems in its manufacture.
HK has pretty strict QC on their MIM hence their limited to near zero issues.
If quality MIM is used, and the gun is built from the ground up to use MIM parts, then I am fine with that. That is essentially what H&K P2000/P30/HK45 are.
Problems are sure to come when you build a gun on smelted, carbon steel machined parts......and then decide to suppliment those parts with MIM ones to save money. The molecular structure of MIM parts is not as uniform as smelted carbon steel.......and certainly not forged steel. The strength just isn't there. The parts have to be beefier overall, and the heat treatment can generally only be a case hardening since the core of the MIM part must remain soft.
LMT Shooter
04-29-13, 22:38
My list of SIG's I own/have owned:
1-226, 1993 German gun, 10-20k rds
1-228, 1994 German gun, 5-10krd
1-229, .40, US made, bought in 2006 & sold 2011, 2-5k rds
1-226, .40, US made bought in 2011, 3-6k rds
1-226 .40 US made bought in 2012, <1k rds
All were bought NIB. I have had zero issues with any of these guns that were not ammo or operator related, other than the slides & grip screws rusting on the German made guns. I am always shocked to hear the SIG bashing, because my experience has been that they are flawlessly reliable & accurate, even the newer US made ones. I have listed my experience with them as it is very relevant, 1 bad apple doesn't mean much. I do not get very high round counts without cleaning, and I always run my guns pretty wet. Does my experience (the number of guns & rounds) add up to an adequate level or not?
I'd love to find a SIG owner with a German made 228 who is pissed off with it & wants to sell it. Hands down my favorite SIG.
My .22lr conversion for a 226 is a total turd. Utterly unreliable, won't fire a full mag without failure to feed. I have not tried a vast assortment of ammo, and honestly don't feel like I should have to just to get the damn thing to run.
http://www.sigsauer.com/SigStore/sb15-pistol-stabilizing-brace-552.aspx
http://www.sigsauer.com/StoreProductList/adaptive-carbine-platform-116.aspx
BoringGuy45
04-30-13, 22:54
^^^
Looks like the folks at Sig watched a few too many episodes of Man from UNCLE. :D
The one Sig I owned had no functioning problems, but I only owned it for about five months and shot maybe a total of 800 rounds between it's .40 and .357 Sig barrels. The reason I won't buy Sig again is all about their customer service. Here's my story:
To start, I bought a .357 P229 (plus a .40 barrel) in late 2011. I had been accepted for sponsorship to a police academy and my sponsoring department was extremely small (6 officers including the chief) and all part time (also including the chief). They had no standard issue equipment except uniforms; everything you carried you purchased with your own money. Fine for me, because I had recently tried a 229 DAK and liked it (so I thought) and I liked the idea of being able to choose my own service weapon. I ordered the weapon directly from Sig, thinking I was getting one with the old frame and slide. Nope, turned out they discontinued that and were only doing their E2 slide and frame. I called and told them it was not what I had expected and could I trade this in for the old style? Nope, only the E2s were available.
Turns out the E2 frame was too wide for any duty holster in production at the time, including my Safariland 6360. Shame on me for not doing more research, but that was my dilemma. I call Sig and ask if I could purchase or trade my E2 slide for the original style, even if it was a refurbished one. The "customer service" rep very irritably just said, "no." I explained that it was for police academy, and he said, "I can't help you, sorry." I said, thank you, and he just said, "yep" and hung up. No, "Anything else I can do for you?" or even "Thank you for calling Sig Sauer, have a nice day!" Pissed, I called Safariland as I knew they were a lot nicer, and asked if they had anything that MIGHT, in a pinch, fit the new E2 slides. The Safariland guy said the old 62 series SLS MIGHT work and he sent me one free of charge, mostly because a lot of the holster companies were pissed at Sig for changing without giving any companies or departments a real heads up. He also told me that Sig was full of shit and they still had their old slides for this very reason, and that if I got one, it would fit my original holster, but keep the new holster anyway (I sent them a REALLY nice letter! :) ).
So I called their LE/military division and explained my problem. Suddenly, because there might be an LE contract at stake (since this was a personal gun, there wasn't a contract issue, but I didn't tell them that) , they have the old style slide that they'll send out this afternoon! Just send the old slide back and they'll automatically refund the $190 for the new (old) slide. Two weeks later, no slide, no refund; I call back, again, they'll send it out this afternoon. Two days later, I check up, they'll send it out this afternoon. A day later, they FINALLY send it out...unassembled and without any components to assemble it with! I called and asked what the hell? And why did you charge the quoted price for an assembled slide? No explanation of that, just "We thought your armorer would have the parts." No, my sponsoring department didn't have an armorer because have no official gear. So, I send it back to be assembled...still haven't got my refund yet BTW, again, promised it was coming "this afternoon". Also told to expect a turnaround time of less than a week with the slide assembly. Luckily, we were shooting in the academy at this point, so it wasn't a huge deal. Three weeks later and lots more "it'll ship this afternoon" promises, it finally arrives. It fits, it works...they aren't done screwing up yet.
They send, for no explainable reason a second slide, which I was charged for. I called and asked what the mix up was, and the lady says send it back and we'll credit you upon receipt. I send it back immediately...takes another six weeks of almost daily pestering for them to credit me.
By this time, I had shot enough rounds with both slides to know that I hated the DAK trigger and I didn't feel like dealing with Sig's customer service again to get it changed to DA/SA. So, I try out a M&P45 at my LGS/range, like it a lot, ask my chief if I can switch (we hadn't done shooting yet at the academy, so it was fine) and trade my used Sig straight up for a brand new M&P, which I still really, really like. Shot that in the academy when we got to firearms training and, while the trigger could use work (and is getting some soon), I knew that the trade was one of the best decisions I made.
So, in closing, I won't go near Sig if I don't have to until they actually pull their craniums from their rectums.
I've had several Sigs in the past years.
SP2340 Sig Pro .40 SW (utter piece of shit) which I no longer have.
P220 .45 ACP (2010 model) No issues. Just under 1,000 rounds
P229 .40 SW (2010-2011 model) -no issues. 3,000 rounds through it
P232 .380 ACP (All German made) - no issues.
http://www.sigsauer.com/SigStore/sb15-pistol-stabilizing-brace-552.aspx
http://www.sigsauer.com/StoreProductList/adaptive-carbine-platform-116.aspx
Agreed. It is hard to take a company seriously when so many of their products are cheap gimmicks.
Alaskapopo
05-04-13, 11:37
I've had several Sigs in the past years.
SP2340 Sig Pro .40 SW (utter piece of shit) which I no longer have.
P220 .45 ACP (2010 model) No issues. Just under 1,000 rounds
P229 .40 SW (2010-2011 model) -no issues. 3,000 rounds through it
P232 .380 ACP (All German made) - no issues.
Those are very low round counts.
Pat
^^^
Looks like the folks at Sig watched a few too many episodes of Man from UNCLE. :D
The one Sig I owned had no functioning problems, but I only owned it for about five months and shot maybe a total of 800 rounds between it's .40 and .357 Sig barrels. The reason I won't buy Sig again is all about their customer service. Here's my story:
To start, I bought a .357 P229 (plus a .40 barrel) in late 2011. I had been accepted for sponsorship to a police academy and my sponsoring department was extremely small (6 officers including the chief) and all part time (also including the chief). They had no standard issue equipment except uniforms; everything you carried you purchased with your own money. Fine for me, because I had recently tried a 229 DAK and liked it (so I thought) and I liked the idea of being able to choose my own service weapon. I ordered the weapon directly from Sig, thinking I was getting one with the old frame and slide. Nope, turned out they discontinued that and were only doing their E2 slide and frame. I called and told them it was not what I had expected and could I trade this in for the old style? Nope, only the E2s were available.
Turns out the E2 frame was too wide for any duty holster in production at the time, including my Safariland 6360. Shame on me for not doing more research, but that was my dilemma. I call Sig and ask if I could purchase or trade my E2 slide for the original style, even if it was a refurbished one. The "customer service" rep very irritably just said, "no." I explained that it was for police academy, and he said, "I can't help you, sorry." I said, thank you, and he just said, "yep" and hung up. No, "Anything else I can do for you?" or even "Thank you for calling Sig Sauer, have a nice day!" Pissed, I called Safariland as I knew they were a lot nicer, and asked if they had anything that MIGHT, in a pinch, fit the new E2 slides. The Safariland guy said the old 62 series SLS MIGHT work and he sent me one free of charge, mostly because a lot of the holster companies were pissed at Sig for changing without giving any companies or departments a real heads up. He also told me that Sig was full of shit and they still had their old slides for this very reason, and that if I got one, it would fit my original holster, but keep the new holster anyway (I sent them a REALLY nice letter! :) ).
So I called their LE/military division and explained my problem. Suddenly, because there might be an LE contract at stake (since this was a personal gun, there wasn't a contract issue, but I didn't tell them that) , they have the old style slide that they'll send out this afternoon! Just send the old slide back and they'll automatically refund the $190 for the new (old) slide. Two weeks later, no slide, no refund; I call back, again, they'll send it out this afternoon. Two days later, I check up, they'll send it out this afternoon. A day later, they FINALLY send it out...unassembled and without any components to assemble it with! I called and asked what the hell? And why did you charge the quoted price for an assembled slide? No explanation of that, just "We thought your armorer would have the parts." No, my sponsoring department didn't have an armorer because have no official gear. So, I send it back to be assembled...still haven't got my refund yet BTW, again, promised it was coming "this afternoon". Also told to expect a turnaround time of less than a week with the slide assembly. Luckily, we were shooting in the academy at this point, so it wasn't a huge deal. Three weeks later and lots more "it'll ship this afternoon" promises, it finally arrives. It fits, it works...they aren't done screwing up yet.
They send, for no explainable reason a second slide, which I was charged for. I called and asked what the mix up was, and the lady says send it back and we'll credit you upon receipt. I send it back immediately...takes another six weeks of almost daily pestering for them to credit me.
By this time, I had shot enough rounds with both slides to know that I hated the DAK trigger and I didn't feel like dealing with Sig's customer service again to get it changed to DA/SA. So, I try out a M&P45 at my LGS/range, like it a lot, ask my chief if I can switch (we hadn't done shooting yet at the academy, so it was fine) and trade my used Sig straight up for a brand new M&P, which I still really, really like. Shot that in the academy when we got to firearms training and, while the trigger could use work (and is getting some soon), I knew that the trade was one of the best decisions I made.
So, in closing, I won't go near Sig if I don't have to until they actually pull their craniums from their rectums.
This is a great story regarding SIG's two issues, each big enough, but total greater than the sum of their parts: customer service, and quality. People will put up with less quality if they get outstanding CS. This has been borne out in research. People will also put up with great quality if CS is problematic. Again, research has confirmed this. The two together? You are putting your company is a big ol' shit hole that you likely won't recover from.
My great CS story. I have (well, had..I sold them) a pair of old Scarpa mountaineering boots. Great boots, but I don't mountaineer or go on outback expeditions any more. As I couldn't recall the model, I emailed the company and sent pictures. Jokingly I said that I would gladly trade them for a pair of new hiking boots. Well, they aren't going to do that, but I will say they set me up very nicely. Guess where all my boots will come from? Guess who I am going to recommend?
CS and quality usually go hand-in-hand, and when one fails, it is an issue, but one that can be overcome. If both fail, it's no bueno for business.
DAVID RICHARDS
05-04-13, 12:08
Before I retired I worked for a company in Quality Control making MIM parts for car engines. Very highly stressed parts. They worked very well. But here is the thing. The whole process was very tightly controlled at each step. Each part was throughly inspected before being put in an engine. So yes the parts can have 98% of the strength of forged parts. If done correctly.
That seems to be the problem with many of these companies. We kept all phases of the manufacturing process in house. We controlled the process from pouring the mold to finish product. Lots of these companies appear to be farming the manufacture of these parts out of house through multiple lowest contract bidders. So in each batch from each different supplier they don't know what they are getting.
The suppliers are supposed to stay within certain tolerences. Even if they keep within these tolerences if the tolerences are too loose you still are getting shit parts. Rather too soft, to much variance in size, and so on the synergistic effect on the gun is obvious. Glocks current problems with MIM extractors is a classic example. Guns that don't work out of the box because the parts are so tight they cause jams. Some of them the extractor hardly will move in the gun. Others to loose or soft. Excessive wear shows up fast. Some good for 400-2000 rounds until the parts are worn out. And some done right that appear to be good to go.
H&K and others use some MIM parts and have for years. They can work. But Glock and now SIG appear to be buying parts that run from one extreme to another. The thing is evidently their profit margins are so large and contracts so big they don't worry about whatever number of guns are faulty. They will just keep putting cheap parts in to "fix" the guns until they work. At least for awhile. Interestingly Colt and others tried MIM extractors and gave up on them. Tells ya something doesn't it?????
Army Chief
05-04-13, 12:14
It is hard to take a company seriously when so many of their products are cheap gimmicks.
And yet, I'm sure their marketing department is telling their bosses that this sort of thing is exactly what the US market is clamoring for. Sadly, they may actually be right in a lot of ways.
My SIG experiences began and ended with the P230, the P226 (police sales variant) and an early P228 which I owned only briefly. All were fine firearms (though the P226 didn't particularly care for underpowered ammunition at first), all preceded the Exeter production line, and all were eventually sold. I really only miss the P230.
AC
Those are very low round counts.
Pat
Yes I know. Hence why I posted them for full disclosure. :)
snaggletooth
05-04-13, 16:41
I've had sigs for the past 8 years. Most were great one, I've had the X5 to some elites (226 9mm and 220 Carry). I see that the best ones were always the plain jane 226s. I have two that I purchased in the past year and a half. One has logged in 8,000 rounds from IDPA competitions to some training classes, the other is utterly useless. It pains me to think that this could come from the same factory. It so useless that I just gave up on it and won't sell it, because I don't want to pass the misfortune of it to someone else.
StrikerFired
05-04-13, 21:18
Sig's have had a rough run with some parts lately. I personally just don't care for them even though they are my Agency Pistol. I don't have a choice so I shoot it for Qual and then back in the holster it goes. There have been several problems with cracked frames, out of spec chambers, mags dumping out, and out of spec frames. The 220 DAK that we have is also too large in the hands of some of our smaller Officers and they cannot manipulate the gun properly. While I CAN shoot with it, it's not my cup of tea.
I really prefer the M&P 40 or 9MM, but since it isn't my choice I don't sweat it.
brushy bill
05-05-13, 13:01
I've often wondered if the classic SIGs were experiencing as many or more issues than Glock or S&W, and on the same scale, why hasn't there been a cottage industry providing failure resistant extractors and other parts as Apex and others are doing for Glock & S&W?
Lest anyone think I have an agenda or am trolling, I am not a SIG fan. I traded off a 239 and 220 and no longer own any SIGs, but I do own multiple Glocks and a S&W M&P. Based on all the negative things I've read on this forum, wouldn't be interested in purchasing one. Nevertheless, this seems curious to me.
I've often wondered if the classic SIGs were experiencing as many or more issues than Glock or S&W, and on the same scale, why hasn't there been a cottage industry providing failure resistant extractors and other parts as Apex and others are doing for Glock & S&W?
Least anyone think I have an agenda or am trolling, I am not a SIG fan. I traded off a 239 and 220 and no longer own any SIGs. Based on all the negative things I've read on this forum, wouldn't be interested in purchasing one. Nevertheless, this seems curious to me.
Very intrigueing point on the after market support and fixes. I am not aware of any for Sig. Is just because there are more Glock/M&P in use?
S. Galbraith
05-05-13, 16:30
I've often wondered if the classic SIGs were experiencing as many or more issues than Glock or S&W, and on the same scale, why hasn't there been a cottage industry providing failure resistant extractors and other parts as Apex and others are doing for Glock & S&W?
Lest anyone think I have an agenda or am trolling, I am not a SIG fan. I traded off a 239 and 220 and no longer own any SIGs, but I do own multiple Glocks and a S&W M&P. Based on all the negative things I've read on this forum, wouldn't be interested in purchasing one. Nevertheless, this seems curious to me.
Striker fired pistols like the Glock and M&P have relatively few parts, are easier to work on, and are cheaper to purchase. These factors make them more appealing to buyers, and do-it-yourself customizers. Sigs and H&Ks have more parts, are harder to work on, and are more expensive. Not to mention, the average civilian hates using a DA/SA trigger. The combination of these factors often keep the demand for after market parts at a low. Usually, customized work on Sigs is reserved for trained gunsmiths.
I have lots of faith in pre 2005 Sigs, and shoot them well. So far I have had some bad experiences with Sigs in the time frame of 2005-2011.
brushy bill
05-05-13, 19:06
Striker fired pistols like the Glock and M&P have relatively few parts, are easier to work on, and are cheaper to purchase. These factors make them more appealing to buyers, and do-it-yourself customizers. Sigs and H&Ks have more parts, are harder to work on, and are more expensive. Not to mention, the average civilian hates using a DA/SA trigger. The combination of these factors often keep the demand for after market parts at a low. Usually, customized work on Sigs is reserved for trained gunsmiths.
I have lots of faith in pre 2005 Sigs, and shoot them well. So far I have had some bad experiences with Sigs in the time frame of 2005-2011.
This was essentially my initial take, and makes perfect sense, except for the fact that people also tend to customize the 1911 heavily as well. Somehow, SIG still seems an anomaly.
S. Galbraith
05-05-13, 19:09
This was essentially my initial take, and makes perfect sense, except for the fact that people also tend to customize the 1911 heavily as well. Somehow, SIG still seems an anomaly.
The 1911 was an exceptional pistol for its day(still is to some degree). There was really nothing to top it until the latter part of the 20th century, so it has a cult following that will last for many decades to come. Plus, it is an inherently accurate shooter with a smooth and crisp single trigger condition. With classic Sigs, most civilian shooters do not like two trigger conditions(particularly DA).
Shooters looking for the easy way out will love to hate any DA/SA pistol. The Beretta gets so much shit for this. Depsite the fact that some of the best shooters grew up on double action revolvers.
Coal Dragger
05-06-13, 01:03
Shooters looking for the easy way out will love to hate any DA/SA pistol. The Beretta gets so much shit for this. Depsite the fact that some of the best shooters grew up on double action revolvers.
In fairness a well tuned DA revolver has a much better trigger than well tuned SIG. If done right a DA revolvers trigger can be slicker that snot on a doorknob, and if the guy doing the tuning is careful the trigger is easy to stage to get close to a single action like break at the end of the trigger pull once the cylinder is indexed. I've had the chance to handle a few S&W Performance Center N frames that were like this. DO WANT.
I always disliked the Beretta because the grip is ungainly for me and my merely average sized hands. Plus they put the safety in a goofy place. This didn't prevent me from easily qualifying as an "expert" marksman with the M9 while I was in the Marines, but I was also shooting a lot of pistol before the Marines and during on my own time. Had I only ever shot the M9 as a first handgun I don't know that I ever would have gotten it down very well.
There are lemons in any brand of guns. Any new model gun is likely to have some problems. Small semi auto pistols are not idiot proof and some people could never get one to shoot for them. Putting the cheapest junk ammo in a new gun is very dumb and causes failures. I own all the problem guns made by Sig and I have never had one FTF or FTE or any kind of failure or parts breakage with any of them. I have the P238, P938, P250, and a P229. There is a dedicated forum for the Sig P250 because of how much people love this gun and its modularity. Any problem is talked about a lot on the net but when something works great there is no discussion unless someone asked. I like all my Sigs and will buy more.1662616627
There is a dedicated forum for the Sig P250 because of how much people love this gun and its modularity. Any problem is talked about a lot on the net but when something works great there is no discussion unless someone asked.
Yep, there is some funny ass shit over there. I counted seven full pages OF THREADS in the "9mm issues" SECTION. There are additional sections devoted to "issues" in the other calibers, .357SIG, .40 S&W, and .380ACP. In fact, the largest sections at the SIG250 forum appear to be dedicated to issues and problems of one sort or another. That inspires a lot of confidence.
Yep, there is some funny ass shit over there. I counted seven full pages OF THREADS in the "9mm issues" SECTION. There are additional sections devoted to "issues" in the other calibers, .357SIG, .40 S&W, and .380ACP. In fact, the largest sections at the SIG250 forum appear to be dedicated to issues and problems of one sort or another. That inspires a lot of confidence.
Hmm... statistics at work.
What annoys me with all of SIGs cost cutting measures is all the little crap like them outputting guns and replacing the metal guide rods with plastic ones.... that break. It's like a $15 part. One would think that their reputation gets hurt more by that $15 part than if they just used the metal one and saved their customers all the heartache and annoyance.
And all of the anecdotal stories that go along with it that effects their reputation.
Davejohnson
01-03-14, 08:52
Back in the late 80's and early 90's Sig was German made only and was the top of the line amongst my shooting buddies. I found the American made models to be different. Here is my experience... just the facts.
German P220 45ACP, P220 38 Super, P226, and P228 all perfect, never jammed and highly accurate with any recipe I load up.
American P220C... the spring that holds the trigger came out during shooting and locked up the gun. I had to remove the right grip to place it back.
American P220 Competition... If I didn't screw the left grip on tight enough it wouldn't hold the safety lever parts in. (The design is that the safety parts are held in by just the grip pushing against them.) Screw the grip in tight enough to hold the safety together, and the magazine won't budge.
American 1911, 1911 compact, and the 1911 RCS Custom... All three flawless guns, accurate, thousands of rounds and they have never jammed.
filthy phil
01-03-14, 10:23
Oh c'mon, no one wants to defend their Mosquito? :p
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
My former boss recieved one as an xmas present and it was a jammomatic until he found the right ammo.
But my tacpac has been perfect, even with tula
http://i.imgur.com/B7W5zMD.jpg
I have a P226R Elite (German frame, NH slide) purchased for me as a gift from my Father in 2007/2008. It is a joy to shoot, extremely accurate, and has exactly 1 malfunction from a round nosediving when I was testing a crappy checkmate mag for a friend. With my Mec-gar mags it has gone through just north of 4,250 rounds without a malfunction other than the one I just mentioned. I don't clean it as often as I should (but keep it well lubed) and even fired about 50 rounds of extremely dirty ammo that I had rolling around in the bottom of a toolbox for 2 years after the bag it was in ripped open. I did that as a test and for fun.. but the ammo was seriously cruddy and had a nice code of oily dirt on it. Fit and finish is perfect. Maybe I just have an anti-lemon.. maybe the Elite models are better made... not sure.
I picked up a new P239 on December 15th. I have fired over 600 rounds of several different kinds of ammunition through it, including reloads that would not function in other pistols. It has properly fed, fired and ejected every time I fired it. It is a tack driver with 147g Speer Gold Dot ammunition. It is my new favorite CCW pistol.
The next two were P226s, one of them being a new production German gun. The other one was made in NH. The first time I broke them down for inspection, it was imediately apparent, that the fit and finish of the German gun was far superior to the NH gun. The machining of the slide, and the way the nitron finish was applied on the NH gun looked sloppy, and imprecise in comparison to the German gun. It was like night and day.
It would be interesting to see a comparison photo of the two and their differences. Were you able to take any pics?
30 cal slut
01-04-14, 08:12
Actual convo from a few years ago.
Slut: "Would you stake your life on a post-2004 production Sig P226?"
KD: "No."
Voodoo_Man
01-04-14, 08:18
Not really hate, just real-world effects of their current production quality.
I bought one of those P290's when they first came out, just for sh!ts and giggles really, would have made an awesome BUG if it worked.
Which is did not. Sent it back to Sig 3 times, light primer strikes, no primer strikes, fail to eject, fail to feed, fail to function really. Finally I got it back it worked for 3 mags and I traded it towards another Glock.
I've been to a few classes where I have seen Sig's (226 and 229) fail. Just straight out fail to work (all LE guns) and all were post 2004. I am not a Sig hater, I have also seen Sig's run flawlessly. Dude had an 80's 9mm Sig (forget the mdoel) which he had rebuilt a dozen times and had over 300k through which ran like a champ. I'd run that gun in a gunfight, but not any new ones.
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