View Full Version : Wolf ammo and carbine classes.....
Quick question for those that have attended carbine courses....is Wolf okay for a class, or a no go? I use Wolf almost exclusively at the range anymore and have had only one problem that turned out to be with the buffer weight (shortstroking). Have any of you used (or seen others use) Wolf, and if so any issues with a high round count class? I will be attending a one day class (500 rounds) next month and I'm wanting to conserve my brass-cased stuff if possible as I don't have much:( Many thanks.
wanderlust
03-24-08, 00:29
I think it depends on the range that is hosting the class. Best bet is to contact the instructor or school and ask first.
I have been to classes with several different people and have seen wolf shot. No one seemed to have an issue with it, except that it was wolf. But again, best best is to contact the school/instructor and ask.
NCPatrolAR
03-24-08, 00:49
Depends on the instructor if he wants Wolf used or not. I personaly just saw several people put about 1200 rounds of it down range per shooter over a two day carbine class. No ammo malfunctions that I recall seeing.
We have been using steel cased Hornady ammo (made in Russia) lately at our classes.
With rifles from 3 different makers, firing over 5k rounds, no problems so far.
Why not? Wolf goes bang. If it malfunctions you get more practice performing immediate action.
I can't imagine an instructor having a problem with that. And I can appreciate your concern over buring up good ammo.
Quick question for those that have attended carbine courses....is Wolf okay for a class, or a no go? I use Wolf almost exclusively at the range anymore and have had only one problem that turned out to be with the buffer weight (shortstroking). Have any of you used (or seen others use) Wolf, and if so any issues with a high round count class? I will be attending a one day class (500 rounds) next month and I'm wanting to conserve my brass-cased stuff if possible as I don't have much:( Many thanks.
IMHO, you spend a lot of money and effort to go to a school so why shoot the worst ammo on the planet?
C4
I can't imagine an instructor having a problem with that. And I can appreciate your concern over buring up good ammo.
Many instructors advise against using Wolf in their classes for the simple reason that it tends to cause more malfunctions than any other ammo. One shooter on the line having to clear malfunctions all day really slow the class down.
C4
Derek_Connor
03-24-08, 08:36
I've never shot wolf through my weapns, never will. After this last weekend seeing BookHound catch a squib round (with a 1k suppressor on the end of his gun) with Georgia Arms Canned heat, I'll never shoot that either...
You endanger not only yourself and your gear, but the people next to you when you skimp on ammo...
Grant and Wideners has a good deals on Prvi...PMC is still widely available and thats still pretty decent..
IMHO, you spend a lot of money and effort to go to a school so why shoot the worst ammo on the planet?
C4
Because 5.56 is no longer 10 cents a round!
I wouldn't go to bed with wolf, but I'll shoot it now simply because ammo is ridiculously expensive.....so I can either I shoot less with better ammo or I shoot more with borderline ammo.
Many instructors advise against using Wolf in their classes for the simple reason that it tends to cause more malfunctions than any other ammo. One shooter on the line having to clear malfunctions all day really slow the class down.
I certainly won't shoot the stuff. But the worst wolf issue I've seen is a stuck case. We tapped it out and moved on. If a shooter knows his gun will run it... :confused:
Because 5.56 is no longer 10 cents a round!
I wouldn't go to bed with wolf, but I'll shoot it now simply because ammo is ridiculously expensive.....so I can either I shoot less with better ammo or I shoot more with borderline ammo.
I look at it two ways. For general blasting Wolf is fine I think. The issue that I have for using it in a training class is that you have spent a lot of money and time to get ready for a carbine school. You are there to learn something and having a gun that does not operate properly REALLY detracts from your ability to learn. I see this all the time. Once a guy starts to get a steady stream of malfunctions, his mind is shot as he is only thinking about having to clear a malfunction or transition to his pistol (instead of what the instructor is saying). You have basically wasted your time and are most likely slowing the class up and becoming “that guy.”
The other issue I have is that you spent a lot of money on your AR. Why put the worst, most inaccurate ammo through it? I personally would prefer to pull the trigger less with better ammo, than more with crappy ammo.
The analogy that I best like is that you bought a Ferrari and put general tires in it and the cheapest gas you could find. This does not make any sense either.
C4
I certainly won't shoot the stuff. But the worst wolf issue I've seen is a stuck case. We tapped it out and moved on. If a shooter knows his gun will run it... :confused:
I have personally seen it ruin a guys entire training weekend. Most people that tell me that their gun "runs just fine with it" have generally never pushed their weapon like they would in a carbine school.
You are there to hear what the instructor has to say and run drills, not screw with clearing stuck cases or malfunctions.
C4
I just checked on Wolf prices. I am seeing it run in the $230-$250 range. For a little bit more money, you can run PRVI. To me, saving $50-$70 bucks just is not worth it.
C4
Dig it! But in this guy's case, it's a 1 day class with only 500 rounds.
He could bring good ammo, and switch over if the wolf became problematic.
Derek_Connor
03-24-08, 09:04
generally never pushed their weapon like they would in a carbine school.
and that is the rub....most beginner shooters do not know the round count where their rifles where begin
I shot a round count last weekend that caused my lower to become to f*ing dirty, it locked up the safety...and that was with PRVI Partizan..
I could only imagine how much sooner my rifle would have locked up if i was shooting wolf
Dig it! But in this guy's case, it's a 1 day class with only 500 rounds.
He could bring good ammo, and switch over if the wolf became problematic.
He could and should. In most cases though, carbine schools are 2-3 days in length.
C4
RogerinTPA
03-24-08, 14:21
Many instructors advise against using Wolf in their classes for the simple reason that it tends to cause more malfunctions than any other ammo. One shooter on the line having to clear malfunctions all day really slow the class down.
C4
Couldn't it be the use of substandard weapon as opposed to a perceived substandard ammo? Maybe some instructors can chime in on this, but doesn't most malfunctions occur due to using weapons at the far right of "the Chart", improper maintenance and bad mags??? If this is the case, in order to keep up with the class, shouldn't the instructors ban every weapon right of the center of the chart? I've read on this forum that entire SWAT teams weapons have gone down in courses due to using Bushmasters. Have they banned Bushies or other substandard weapons? Of course not. They want to make money, so why ban a person's ammo if he feels comfortable using it? If you did spend a lot of money on your weapon, then your's is obviously to the left of "the Chart" and should have no problem. I don't with any ammo I've used in my Colt 6920.
I thought only instructors that run ranges with metal targets prohibited steel tipped ammo, causing damage to the target. Wolf being rejected due to brass coated steel bullets, no?
I thought only instructors that run ranges with metal targets prohibited steel tipped ammo, causing damage to the target. Wolf being rejected due to brass coated steel bullets, no?
Wolf is lacquer coated, steel cased. The projectile is standard FMJ or SP.
Couldn't it be the use of substandard weapon as opposed to a perceived substandard ammo? Maybe some instructors can chime in on this, but doesn't most malfunctions occur due to using weapons at the far right of "the Chart", improper maintenance and bad mags??? If this is the case, in order to keep up with the class, shouldn't the instructors ban every weapon right of the center of the chart? Of course not, so why ban a person's ammo if he feels comfortable using it? If you did spend a lot of money on your weapon, then your's is obviously to the left of "the Chart" and should have no problem. I don't with any ammo using my Colt 6920.
I thought only instructors that run ranges with metal targets prohibited steel tipped ammo, causing damage to the target. Wolf being rejected due to brass coated steel bullets, no?
It is actually a little of everything IMHO. I have seen all kinds of guns fail. In particular, S&W M&P's do NOT like wolf at all.
About 40% off all AR malfunctions are most likely caused by a bad mag. Another 40% of the malfunctions are cause by stupid user tricks (not cleaning or lubing and not doing PM's). The last 20% is generally caused by poor ammo IMHO.
So to answer your question, crappy ammo in a quality gun can and will cause malfunctions.
Wolf does not have a steel core. Instructors reject the ammo because it generally creates delays in their training schedules.
C4
I've seen a few guys run Wolf with zero issues. Prices the way they are I think we are going to be seeing more and more it in classes. To me it's just like anything else; test your rifle throughly with it before the class. IF your rifle will run with it, then go ahead and bring it. Maybe it would be a smart idea to have back-up (higher quality) ammo on hand to protect yourself.
Heavy Metal
03-24-08, 16:06
I ran some two year old wolf at a Vickers class a month ago with zero issues.
But I also have a highly polished chamber and cleaned the rifle saturday night.
I also brought good ammo and an extra rifle in case the wolf shit the bed.
Thanks for all the responses guys. I think I'll start with the Wolf and switch to Prvi if problems arise. I'll be taking a spare rifle as well. We'll see how things turn out:)
I shot a lot of cheap ammos last year, and I don't think I ever had a malfunction with Wolf. Its not as dirty as Ultramax and had a lot less problems than the Radway I shot, which was full of bad casings.
Heavy Metal
03-24-08, 20:57
If I might ask, what problems did you have with the Radway?
If I might ask, what problems did you have with the Radway?
Some radway lots ran good, and some were short stroking MO FOs!
The upside with radway is you have great brass to make GOOD ammo out of in the end!
I had a bunch of it where about every 50 rounds I'd have one with a dented casing, right up near the neck. I caught most of them, but the ones I didn't malfunctioned.
Then there was this beauty..
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1198/1030480126_a470312fe7_b.jpg
RogerinTPA
03-26-08, 14:10
Wolf is lacquer coated, steel cased. The projectile is standard FMJ or SP.
I am aware of that. :rolleyes: I didn't mean to imply that the bullet had a steel penetrator in it. I thought the bullet jacket was also steel, coated in copper, or a blend of steel/copper. Hence the rejection by some instructors using magnets to determine if your ammo has steel in the jacket. Maybe its a ploy to out right reject Wolf or to buy their brass cased ammo.
What instructors don't allow Wolf ammo?
I personally would prefer to pull the trigger less with better ammo, than more with crappy ammo.
I prefer the opposite approach. More trigger time is better. While you are at home polishing your ammo, I'll be shooting whatever I can get my hands on. In fact, I'll soon be shooting (much) more .22 out of my AR than .223
Besides, I doubt you'll notice the difference in accuracy when at the 25m line when using Wolf.
The analogy that I best like is that you bought a Ferrari and put general tires in it and the cheapest gas you could find. This does not make any sense either.
C4
Except an AR isn't a Ferrari. A better analogy is parking your Ford Taurus (the AR) because you can't bear to put low-octane gas (Wolf ammo) in it in order to practice parrallel parking in the Walmart parking lot (the carbine class).
If your gun runs Wolf, then have at it. I once asked about Wolf because of the magnet/steel issues that you might run into on a range. My only concern would be that the range doesn't want you shooting Wolf at their steel targets. I've heard of this but haven't experienced it.
Depends why you're shooting, I guess.
mike benedict
03-27-08, 06:21
when you run an AR15 hard in a class you see a lot of problems with Wolf. The cases stick in the chamber and they are real tough to get out.
There are always someone in a class that runs it and has issues and slows the whole class down.
I don't use it in my guns.
Mike
Jay Cunningham
03-27-08, 06:31
The simple answer is run your carbine hard at the practice range with Wolf - if your gun can handle it then it's probably okay in a class.
What instructors don't allow Wolf ammo?
All kinds. Do some looking around. A lot also do not allow handloads either.
I prefer the opposite approach. More trigger time is better. While you are at home polishing your ammo, I'll be shooting whatever I can get my hands on. In fact, I'll soon be shooting (much) more .22 out of my AR than .223
Besides, I doubt you'll notice the difference in accuracy when at the 25m line when using Wolf.
More trigger without malfunctions is good I think. The .22 conversion system is a really the best answer for people that want to shoot a lot.
If all you are doing is shooting at the 25M line, then it really does not matter what you are shooting (as long as it cycles).
Except an AR isn't a Ferrari. A better analogy is parking your Ford Taurus (the AR) because you can't bear to put low-octane gas (Wolf ammo) in it in order to practice parrallel parking in the Walmart parking lot (the carbine class).
I guess it depends on who built your AR. If you are running an Oly, then yes, you do have a Ford Taurus. I personally run a Ferrari! ;)
If your gun runs Wolf, then have at it. I once asked about Wolf because of the magnet/steel issues that you might run into on a range. My only concern would be that the range doesn't want you shooting Wolf at their steel targets. I've heard of this but haven't experienced it.
It is your gun and shoot whatever you want in it, I personally would never use it though.
C4
when you run an AR15 hard in a class you see a lot of problems with Wolf. The cases stick in the chamber and they are real tough to get out.
There are always someone in a class that runs it and has issues and slows the whole class down.
I don't use it in my guns.
Mike
Exactly right! Do not be "THAT GUY" in a training class.
C4
A lot also do not allow handloads either.
That's the one I most often see. I'd guess that most people are making hand loads that are leaps and bounds above the ammo that has been available in bulk to shooters lately. I agree with Pat Rogers on the idea that there's not a lot of GOOD ammuntion available right now.
But I understand the instructors not wanting some guy to show up with funky ammo that won't run and no alternative.
All kinds. Do some looking around. A lot also do not allow handloads either.
I know of instructors that don't allow handloads, but I believe that's mainly because of kaboom potential, not because of concerns about slowing the class down.
Well, I looked around and I didn't find an instructor that prohibited Wolf ammo. Since you brought it up, I'm asking you who these instructors are.
Of the hundreds folks teaching carbine classes around the country, I wouldn't be suprised if someone somewhere has recommended against it and maybe even outright prohibited bringing it. However, simple economics discourages instructors from banning Wolf. That would effectively add significantly to the cost of the course.
I know of instructors that don't allow handloads, but I believe that's mainly because of kaboom potential, not because of concerns about slowing the class down.
A "kaboom" potential does slow down a class (FYI).
Well, I looked around and I didn't find an instructor that prohibited Wolf ammo. Since you brought it up, I'm asking you who these instructors are.
Hmm which instructor should I throw to the wolves....
Of the hundreds folks teaching carbine classes around the country, I wouldn't be suprised if someone somewhere has recommended against it and maybe even outright prohibited bringing it. Simple economics discourages instructors from banning Wolf. That would effectively add significantly to the cost of the course.
I think just about EVERY quality instructor advises against bringing Wolf to class. I do not think that any instructor (that I am aware of) would ban you from a class if you showed up with Wolf.
Most carbine classes only use about 1K of ammo. The cost between Wolf and say PRIVI is only about $100. This is NOT a singificant cost addition IMHO.
C4
RogerinTPA
03-27-08, 11:48
when you run an AR15 hard in a class you see a lot of problems with Wolf. The cases stick in the chamber and they are real tough to get out.
There are always someone in a class that runs it and has issues and slows the whole class down.
I don't use it in my guns.
Mike
I thought that occurred when mixing steel with brass type ammo in the same mag. Particularly with substandard brass ala South African ammo. It is the excess carbon buildup, not the lacquer, that sticks to the brass and causes malfunctions. http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu18.htm
I thought that occurred when mixing steel with brass type ammo in the same mag. Particularly with substandard brass ala South African ammo. It is the excess carbon buildup, not the lacquer, that sticks to the brass and causes malfunctions. http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu18.htm
I have read this and do agree with it. The author only shot about 80rds though. I have seen people shoot THOUSANDS of rounds of Wolf and gotten a gooey, glue type build up in their chamber.
This phenomenon was seen more with older Wolf than newer stuff. It seems to me that they have switched to a different type lacquer than what was used in the past (don't know).
C4
I ran new Wolf 55gr through my ADS AR twice when I first got it. On the first outing, I made it through just over 150 rounds (only took 180) before I had a FTE with a case stuck in so hard it took 5 whacks on the stock to get it out. Not a big deal, except that the range I most frequently shoot at doesn't allow anything except barrels down range, so it's a big hassle to get them to clear it in their "bunker".
Second outing, I took a chamber brush just in case I had problems. Somewhere around 100 rounds I started getting feed problems. Mainly, it would eject but not chamber the next round, or wouldn't hold open on the last round. I brushed it down, and it seemed to help until around another 100 or so. I finally gave up at 240. In that time I had 10-15 single shots that required charging, one double feed that smashed in the side of the bottom round and one where the primer burned a hole through the side of itself instead of discharging. I inspected all the cases I had problems with, and they weren't sticky, gooey or damaged in any way.
I tried 62gr in a DPMS with basically the same results. That rifle would eat the cheaper PMC and Remington all day long and never miss a beat. As soon as you fed it Wolf though, it turned itself into a single shot.
To me, it seems to not like tight and/or dirty chambers. I think it has more to do with the stiff case expanding on fire, but not shrinking back down like brass does. It doesn't help that the powder is extremely dirty. A lighter buffer might help it to some extent as the energy left over after trying to pry the case out of the chamber doesn't leave enough to fully cycle the carrier. Although, I would think it would only prolong the inevitable as the crud continues to build up to the point that it would start sapping enough energy to stop the lighter buffer from cycling.
I emailed a highly touted instructor here about this topic earlier this morning. I personally will not be using Wolf ammo in class after talking with him and listening to some of the nay-sayers here.
I reload my own .223 and I also bought a .22LR conversion kit to shoot cheaply at the range. I'll buy some Prvi Partizan for the classes this year and not take my chances.
I believe this to be a decent economical trade off. And believe me... I am cheap thinking of all that lost brass shot during training.
Derek_Connor
03-27-08, 23:08
Example of cheap ammo, SQUIB round that was found before a catostrophic failure that could of happened next your or my heads...
Ammo was Canned Heat by Georiga Arms:
http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/3831/img1402largebq7.jpg
http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/8403/img1401largemx8.jpg
http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/4258/img1404largeto2.jpg
http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/4748/img1403largesn9.jpg
Just finished teaching a 3 day basic rifle/carbine class.
6 shooters, about 750 rounds per person.
1 Colt M16A1 (well broke in)
1 Colt AR15A3 (new)
4 SW MP15A's (new)
All the Smith carbines were checked for headspace prior to class. They closed on a GO gauge, did not close on FIELD or NO GO gauges.
We used Hornady steel cased (made in russia) 55 grn FMJ exclusively for the first two days.
All guns were well-lubed and often lubed (Mobil 1).
2 of the Smith carbines choked repeatedly on the above ammo. Cleaned the chambers with a chamber brush. Problems persisted. Again cleaned with chamber brush. Problems persisted.
Day 3, switched to PMC brass cased ammo in the above 2 carbines. They worked 100%.
The other 4 rifles worked 100% with the steel cased ammo.
The problems on days 1 & 2 slowed the class down, frustrated the shooters, and caused them to doubt their weapon systems.
My advice, pay the extra $ for better ammo.
A "kaboom" potential does slow down a class (FYI).
Uh yeah. Thanks. But I'll be clear. Some instructors don't allow handloads because they are concerned about lost eyeballs and liability, not because of slowing the class down. Loss of eyesight is worse than slowing the line down (just an FYI)
What instructors don't allow Wolf ammo?
All kinds. Do some looking around. A lot also do not allow handloads either.
Well, I looked around and I didn't find an instructor that prohibited Wolf ammo. Since you brought it up, I'm asking you who these instructors are.
Hmm which instructor should I throw to the wolves....
I do not think that any instructor (that I am aware of) would ban you from a class if you showed up with Wolf.
So which is it? Do some instructors ban Wolf or not? First you said all kinds; now you are saying you don't know of any. Plus, I'm not sure why you think telling us who doesn't allow a particular brand of ammo would be "throwing [him] to the wolves" since you've stated over and over (and over) your opinion of Wolf.
Uh yeah. Thanks. But I'll be clear. Some instructors don't allow handloads because they are concerned about lost eyeballs and liability, not because of slowing the class down. Loss of eyesight is worse than slowing the line down (just an FYI)
Of course. Injury to a student is a big concern for sure. It still slows down the class though. ;)
So which is it? Do some instructors ban Wolf or not? First you said all kinds; now you are saying you don't know of any. Plus, I'm not sure why you think telling us who doesn't allow a particular brand of ammo would be "throwing [him] to the wolves" since you've stated over and over (and over) your opinion of Wolf.
So which is what? Some instructors do not allow you to shoot Wolf and or HIGHLY recommend against it. I know of several that do not want to see students run the stuff, but I am not going to throw their names out there so that people can make snide little comments about them or put them on their "instructor ban list." I have been down this road many times before on many different forums and the results are always the same. This is why I have learned to give no give names out (sorry).
The best thing to do if you are taking a carbine course, is to contact the instructor and ask them what kind of ammo they prefer or do not allow.
C4
Last summer, I paid good money to attend a 3 day carbine class with a well known instructor (he was worth the money, by the way).
One of the students brought handloads. They did not work in his carbine (Mini 14) and he slowed the rest of us down.
Nobody was happy about this.
He bought a case of ammo after day 1, resulting in a much better situation for all present.
Submariner
03-30-08, 06:13
I believe this to be a decent economical trade off. And believe me... I am cheap thinking of all that lost brass shot during training.
You can't pick up your own brass at the end of the day? That can be a very expensive range fee.
You can't pick up your own brass at the end of the day? That can be a very expensive range fee.
I usually train with my Father and my partner from the Department we all work for. Thus at the end of the day I feel that it is more important to get us gone than to make them wait on me, as they do not reload. I suppose they could wait at the truck and discuss the day's training, but I would feel a bit selfish of the time being taken up for one man in the group.
Shot of the primer failure. It blew smoke like it was black powder.
http://garydickerson.smugmug.com/photos/275480615_BRUbq-L.jpg
Thus at the end of the day I feel that it is more important to get us gone than to make them wait on me
Pack a box of large ziplock freezer bags and get a cat litter scoop (http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2750668&utm_medium=nextag&mr:referralID=95a97fce-03f5-11dd-8103-000423bb4e79&utm_source=cse). You can clean up in just a few minutes instead of an hour trying to pick each individual case up.
My RRA will cycle about 200 rounds of Wolf. Then the cases start sticking to the point that only a cleaning rod will remove them.
Apparently a change in laquer to some sort of polymer base is to blame. People that aren't shooting a lot and getting the gun hot don't seem to have as many issues. When the chamber gets hot, it starts to get gummy. Cases stick, it gets pretty maddening.
If it runs in your gun, lucky you, just make sure you run several hundred rounds thru it in fairly short order and get it hot and dirty before you take it to a multi day carbine class.
I have about 4,000 rounds of Wolf in my basement if anyone wants to do some trading :cool:
Quality ammo is a must. That being said, I've seen well-built, reliable carbines go through 2-3 day classes shooting Wolf exclusively without issue. But, that is not the norm. Overall, I've seen more problems in classes with students who use Wolf ammo, but a large portion of these problems are directly related to the shooter and the weapon. Improperly built, poorly maintained, not lubed, nor properly understood, broken-in or shot enough are common factors. Combine any or all of these with some questionable ammo of any type and problems are inevitable. A high percentage of shooters that don't properly use and maintain their weapons tend to use Wolf in my observation, so it gets a bad rap whether it deserves it or not.
I'm not defending it, but just stating personal observations. I know of one training carbine that is a test bed for finishes, parts, ammo, mags, etc. It's a frankengun with a mix of parts including DPMS - running Wolf ammo and a Mobil1 "red oil" mix exclusively. It works amazingly well, gets run hard in class and has minimal malfunctions. Would I use or recommend this for work? No! It's being tested to see what can be expected if properly fitted and maintained.
However, these aren't the results that are typically seen at the range and in training classes.
I dont think any one I have been to had a no Wolf policy, Personally I wouldnt use wolf for a carbine class, I love it for the range and plinkin but since it tends to be more dirty than many brass cased ammos I would be hesitant to use it in such a place
CarlosDJackal
04-13-09, 14:05
With the current cost and unavailability of brass-cased ammo, I decided to use polymer-coated Wolf ammo for a 3-day VTAC class this weekend. We'll see how things go but as of yet, I have had more trouble with PMC Bronze than this ammo out of my SBR.
But just in case, I will bring my remaining case of S&B ammo as a contingency. I have shot thousands of rounds of this ammo over the past few years without any issue I can attribute to the ammo.
I just ran north of 1100 rounds at a Pat Rogers 3 day class weekend before last. No issues at all. I did bring the same amount of brass cased ammo in case I needed it. With ammo costs the way they are running the Wolf will allow me to train more. I hope the experiment continues to work. I too will be running Wolf at this weekend's VTAC class but will have the brass cased ammo as backup if needed. FWIW the gun is a Noveske N4 Basic.
Spence
RogerinTPA
04-13-09, 23:19
To date, I have fired north of 12K rounds of Wolf (both green and clear lacquer), out of 3 AR's (1 Colt, 1 Colt lower/Saber Defense middy and 1 LMT MRP) without one malfunction attributed to the ammo. If you use a quality weapon and keep it lubed, you shouldn't have a problem.
CarlosDJackal
04-14-09, 08:29
I just ran north of 1100 rounds at a Pat Rogers 3 day class weekend before last. No issues at all. I did bring the same amount of brass cased ammo in case I needed it. With ammo costs the way they are running the Wolf will allow me to train more. I hope the experiment continues to work. I too will be running Wolf at this weekend's VTAC class but will have the brass cased ammo as backup if needed. FWIW the gun is a Noveske N4 Basic.
Spence
And if I run into any issues this weekend, Spence is going to be my new bestest buddy. :p
Littlelebowski
04-14-09, 08:44
I've put about 600 rounds of mixed brass and Wolf ammo through a Sabre middy in a couple of hours or so (1 range session). Bear in mind that this gun's chamber had been hit with Ned's chamber reamer by gotm4 due to constant FTEs. The gun ran 100%. I'd trust this gun to run in a carbine class with Wolf but I would bring some brass ammo as well. My 5.45 S&W AR gobbles steel cased ammo like candy.
The Katar is dead right. Practice with the ammo you're going to take to the class and run your gun hard.
I will also be running some wolf ammo in this weekends VTAC class. I might even use some in my Glock.
I guess the AAR will tell the tale. The rifle i am going to use is a BCM upper and bolt carrier.
Larry.
Gutshot John
04-14-09, 16:42
I will also be running some wolf ammo in this weekends VTAC class. I might even use some in my Glock.
Larry I remember how well that wolf worked for you the last time we were in class together.
Perhaps I should bring a little extra...only a buck a round. :p
darrendeep6
04-15-09, 02:39
I've done a few carbine classes with Wolf. No problems, just a dirtier gun. The steel cases are harder on the extractors though. I would shoot a couple hundered rounds through your carbine to make sure it will run with it. My LMTs gobble it up. I also like the idea of backing up your ammo allotment with some good brass cased stuff. I'll be doing that when I take Kyle Lamb's class.
John_Wayne777
04-15-09, 06:50
Example of cheap ammo, SQUIB round that was found before a catostrophic failure that could of happened next your or my heads...
Ammo was Canned Heat by Georiga Arms:
That's one brand of ammo I would absolutely avoid at all costs. I've seen too many pictures from stunned GA buyers of their blown up guns.
I've shot at least 12-15K of canned heat over the years with no problem what so ever. I only stopped using it when they became too popular and jacked there prices up above my prices for factory ammo. Otherwise I would still most likely be shooting it.
I used my last box of it just recently in the M4c mod/staff/industry class.
The_War_Wagon
04-18-09, 16:34
I've run through 2k of Canned Heat over the last 2 years - sitting on another 2k still. Never a hiccup! :D
CarlosDJackal
04-22-09, 14:42
Well, I shot some Wolf ammo over the weekend during a VTAC Carbine 1.5 class. I ended up shooting just under 600 rounds on TD1 and would had shot more had I not experienced the second Failure to Extract of the day. In both these cases, the cartridge's rim ripped right off.
While I was able to easily use a rod to clear out the first. I had to include a brass hammer to get the second out after I soaked it with Carbon Killer for a couple of hours. I gave the gun a thorough cleaning after and was amazed at the size and shape of crud I had to remove from the chamber and barrel extension!!
On TD2 & TD3 I used brass-cased ammo and did not have a single hiccup. I ended up shooting a total of almost 1,300 rounds for all three days of training.
I may need to have the chamber polished or maybe it's just tight. But since the barrel has almost 9,000-rounds through it, it might not worth the effort to polish or ream it out.
The remaining 3,000-rounds of Wolf ammo I have will be relegated to practice from now on.
Added, we did a lot of evolutions that required me to shoot long strings and then leave a round in the chamber. I suspect that some of the polymer coating may have melted and accumulated in the chamber throughout the day.
CarlosDJackal
04-22-09, 15:54
What barrel/gun?
Oh sorry. It's an LWRC 10.5-inch, 1/7-twist, pre-CHF barrel/upper that I had purchased early last year.
Carlos I have a very similar issue if i try and feed Wolf through a 7.5" model 1 upper I have ... It takes major elbow grease to get the casings out. I would guess mine is just tight too ...
My M&P 16" upper, Colt 20" upper and LMT 10.5" upper eat wolf all day without an issue ... Ive easily shot 20K plus rounds of the stuff ...
John_Wayne777
04-26-09, 17:48
Well, I shot some Wolf ammo over the weekend during a VTAC Carbine 1.5 class. I ended up shooting just under 600 rounds on TD1 and would had shot more had I not experienced the second Failure to Extract of the day. In both these cases, the cartridge's rim ripped right off.
While I was able to easily use a rod to clear out the first. I had to include a brass hammer to get the second out after I soaked it with Carbon Killer for a couple of hours. I gave the gun a thorough cleaning after and was amazed at the size and shape of crud I had to remove from the chamber and barrel extension!!
On TD2 & TD3 I used brass-cased ammo and did not have a single hiccup. I ended up shooting a total of almost 1,300 rounds for all three days of training.
I may need to have the chamber polished or maybe it's just tight.
The issues you experienced with Wolf are common in the AR platform. IIRC the steel cases of the ammo do not expand as fully as it does with brass cased ammo. This leads to the opportunity for crud to build up between the wall of the case and the chamber. (As well as more crud to go back in the action) Eventually the level of crud buildup gets so bad that you end up with a case that is basically glued into the chamber.
That's one of the downsides to using Wolf. With 9,000 rounds of brass cased ammo through your weapon (I assume) trouble free, the issue is with the ammo...not your weapon. This is, incidentally, why a lot of instructors encourage people to avoid Wolf ammo in courses.
I am by no means the authoritative subject on ammo or guns for that matter but ive had a few people ask me about ammo, why they're asking me i dont know.
Whenever the subject of training and wolf comes up i always recommend the following:
IF you absolutely MUST run wolf to save some money start the days with that ammo.
If the total class round count is 1500 and you only want to spend the dosh on 1k rounds of brass case pick up 500 wolf and run it on the beginning of day 1 and 2 (if its a two day class).
Depending on the class that you're taking your gun barrel wont be getting extremely hot until the latter half of the days in which time i would avoid the ammo all together due to the increased fouling and higher chance of a case getting stuck.
Ive never had issues running wolf in any of my guns but honestly, id rather not risk a major failure resulting in the gun going down. Wolf in small stints for me ie 200-750 rounds has never been a problem so long as the gun isnt getting ridiculously hot.
In the case of my 7.5"ar in can be perfectly clean and wolf would jam in there with less then a mag down the pipe.
I've shot thousand through my other rifles without cleaning through several adv carbine classes without an issue .... Yes I got the rifle VERY hot ...
BUT, I don't trust it enough to use it when running supressed ...
The way I look at wolf is, if you can run it without an issue, do it. Just shoot a ton of it before you get to a course so you k ow what to expect ...
We've run wolf at work for over 10 years now, probably 150 K rounds or more. We use it for our two day in house carbine class, but round counts are probably at most 300 a day so the guns don't get as hot.
We've chrono'd it and our duty rounds and the wolf is hotter than Hornady TAP and within 50 FPS of Federal. All were 55 grain bullets from the same gun.
We've shot groups with them and the Wolf, Hornady, and Federal all shoot to the same point of aim and the same group size. I routinely get MOA groups out of it, definitely no better or worse than our duty rounds.
I ran 2500 rounds of it in an Carbine Instructor School and no problems with it, although I was running an XCR so I don't know how much difference that may have made. Several of the drills had me going through 5 mags at a time.
In 9 years, we have had to replace 1 extractor out of 20 guns. I do keep spares on hand just in case.
I ran about 1200 rounds of Wolf (a mix of 55gr and 62 gr) through an EAG course last week, with one ammo-related failure. The primer was struck but did not detonate.
It was through one of their T&E guns, with about 10,500 rounds through it before I shot it. It had not been cleaned and it ran like a champ.
Like just about everything else, everyone will have varying experiences with ammo, parts, etc--and at times the internet seems to make problems and solutions bigger than they might actually be. Mine this time with Wolf happened to be positive.
policemedic
05-13-09, 16:49
I ran about 1200 rounds of Wolf (a mix of 55gr and 62 gr) through an EAG course last week, with one ammo-related failure. The primer was struck but did not detonate.
It was through one of their T&E guns, with about 10,500 rounds through it before I shot it. It had not been cleaned and it ran like a champ.
Like just about everything else, everyone will have varying experiences with ammo, parts, etc--and at times the internet seems to make problems and solutions bigger than they might actually be. Mine this time with Wolf happened to be positive.
Which manufacturer?
I did a Vickers 2-day carbine class last Sept. and a 3-day EAG class last weekend. Carbine: Tarted-up Colt LE6920. Ammo: Wolf 62-gr. Cleaning regime: Gunscrubber shot through upper/chamber, BCG and swabbed out, wiped down at night. TW25B liberally applied to entire bolt, carrier, and the C/H wear points twice per day. I did clean the bore before the EAG class...
1900 rounds of Wolf and 200 rds. of Federal ball. No malfunctions save for one on the first day of the Vickers class. (New carbine FCS breaking in.) I think most prblems encountered with Wolf are due to the fact that most hobby gun mfgrs. carbines have a .223 Rem. SAAMI chamber instead of a 5.56mm Nato chamber.
Good to know. I've been looking and the only 62+ grain that I can find in any volume and for a decent price is foreign ammo.
davestarbuck
05-19-09, 18:49
I had multiple stuck cases with Wolf 75 gr. during a Magpul Adv carbine class. Only happened after the guns (I used two) got hot. I switched to PMC 55 gr on day 2 and had no more problems. Both guns are BCM 16" uppers with BCM BCG's. The older carbine has had at least 1500 rounds of wolf,1000 rounds of Silver Bear and 500 rounds of Brown Bear through it. But the Wolf was older, polymer coated 62 gr... I wonder if the 75 gr has softer rims on the cases..
In any case I still use the wolf for range days, and I haven't run into anymore problems if I let the guns cool off every 300 rounds or so...
-dave
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.