View Full Version : BUIS...?
Curious as to who, what, and why...
Do you run fixed or folding? Front up, both up, neither up?
Lower 1/3, 50/50, or whatever you feel best fits your face? If shooting from unconventional positions does your preference change?
Folding, both down. Why? Because I'll never use them except to zero and to practice for the time when I will need them... Which is probably never. But they're there just in case.
I run the standard fixed fsp with flip up rears on all my guns. These days I usually don't shoot irons other than at long distances I will flip up the rear and use it as a smaller apature to look at the dot on my rds. ( makes the dot smaller since I have a slight astigmatism).
Folding, both down. Why? Because I'll never use them except to zero and to practice for the time when I will need them... Which is probably never. But they're there just in case.
+1 what he said
The Marine Corps. switched away from BUIS because the ACOG is so darn reliable that it wasn't cost effective to provide the troops with BUIS.
As for he everyday guy like you and me, it couldn't hurt to have some BUIS.
The Marine Corps. switched away from BUIS because the ACOG is so darn reliable that it wasn't cost effective to provide the troops with BUIS.
As for he everyday guy like you and me, it couldn't hurt to have some BUIS.
Prior to 08, you were issued a carrying handle to act as your back up sights. A4s acquired since than came with a BUIS instead of a carrying handle. Starting around 10-11, we starting buying thousands of KAC 600 BUIS to equip every rifle, carbine and IAR
Fixed front, flipy rear.
My rifle with the T-1 has the standard FSB, and a flipped up Troy rear sight. I always keep it flipped up. Why I do not get a fixed rear, is if I decide to put another optic on it, like my ACOG, or in the event I can get a PVS-14 and want to mount it.
My other rifle with the ACOG has a Fixed DD front sight, and a flipy Troy. You cannot use the iron sights with the ACOG, so they are there just because I left them on there..And in the event my COG goes down I can have them. Though, if my COG did go down I'd surely not be in the mood to keep shooting unless I had to, (class, or defense).
Prior to 08, you were issued a carrying handle to act as your back up sights. A4s acquired since than came with a BUIS instead of a carrying handle. Starting around 10-11, we starting buying thousands of KAC 600 BUIS to equip every rifle, carbine and IAR
And, in or around '12, "we" stopped buying and issuing them. Good luck finding a rifle with BUIS on them.
I tried several things and developed my own way this weekend training with Kyle Lamb. Yes, apparently an RDS DOES! have paralax, even at 100 yards. Flipping the front BUIS up fixed group shift at 100 for me, and when in roll-over prone, and other positions from behind cover, the front sight provided a way to accurately gauge cant on the fly, as well as providing a "reference" so that I knew I was looking at things correctly shooting support-side, etc. Sometimes you can get so caught up in things that you do stupid crap like look through a left-hand shouldered rifle with the right eye---or try to---etc. FSB up prevents 99% of that monkeybusiness.
Just what I learned. Do what you want.
jonconsiglio
04-22-13, 20:56
I run KAC or Matech rear and a KAC or dd fixed front. My primary use with a red dot is similar to what WS6 just mentioned, parallax help with the front when taking shots that are a little more precise.
My main purpose is to assure zero with my red dot optics. Flip the irons up and assure alignment with cowitness. If it's off, I know something is wrong with my zero. If not, I know I'm good to go. DocGKR turned me on to that one a good while back.
And, in or around '12, "we" stopped buying and issuing them. Good luck finding a rifle with BUIS on them.
The contract was filled after we bought more sights than we have rifles and carbines.
Poor until level accountability (probably half of them have been sold on ebay and the gun boards) does not really change the fact that USMC policy is ever rifle and carbine is to have a BUIS
And, in or around '12, "we" stopped buying and issuing them. Good luck finding a rifle with BUIS on them.
The contract was filled after we bought more sights than we have rifles and carbines.
Poor until level accountability (probably half of them have been sold on ebay and the gun boards) does not really change the fact that USMC policy is ever rifle and carbine is to have a BUIS
Not that its worth a whole lot, but I have seen so many pictures of Marines with AOCGs and no BUIS that I was starting to wonder...
Fixed D&Ds on my 14.5 with a T1 micro. Primarily for the simplicity and ruggedness of the fixed setup but also because of the added benefit the smaller aperture gives with respect to sharpening my sight picture for lobger shots.
The_War_Wagon
04-23-13, 05:29
Troy folding battle sights - rear down. I run my optics as an absolute co-witness, so if it fails, flip up the rear, and the sight plane remains the same.
Not that its worth a whole lot, but I have seen so many pictures of Marines with AOCGs and no BUIS that I was starting to wonder...
Up until 08 there was no program of record for BUISs in the Marines and it was up to units. From 08 on they were a system push item and we have bought more of them than we have weapons to put them on.
But most Marines did not even know what a BUIS was and it was assumed that since they got iron sight training at Boot or TBS they did not need BUIS specific training; zeroing and usage of a BUIS was added to doctrine just last year.
I tried several things and developed my own way this weekend training with Kyle Lamb. Yes, apparently an RDS DOES! have paralax, even at 100 yards. Flipping the front BUIS up fixed group shift at 100 for me, and when in roll-over prone, and other positions from behind cover, the front sight provided a way to accurately gauge cant on the fly, as well as providing a "reference" so that I knew I was looking at things correctly shooting support-side, etc. Sometimes you can get so caught up in things that you do stupid crap like look through a left-hand shouldered rifle with the right eye---or try to---etc. FSB up prevents 99% of that monkeybusiness.
Just what I learned. Do what you want.
Didn't learn this from Kyle but this is exactly why I switched to a fixed front sight a while back. Having that reference point in akward positions being my biggest reason. Good post WS6.
-Jax
Front is fixed standard sight post and rear is a Troy battle sight I keep down. I run a Pro on my 6920.
with a RDS, fixed front and fixed rear if lower 1/3. folding rear if absolute cowitness.
folding f and r with magnified optics...
I currently use:
Folding front and rear; lower 1/3 co-witness, sights down unless I'm practicing or optic fails.
Fixed front and folding rear; rear down unless practicing or optic fails.
Two with fixed front and rear; lower 1/3 co-witness.
I'd say my preference is now leaning to fixed sights. It allows for faster transition, in my opinion, IF my optics ever fail. In fact, I just sold the old Aimpoint off of my 10.5" SBR and am now just rocking the fixed sights (until I save up enough pennies for a T-1).
Depends totally on the specific weapon and its role. But I use nothing that flips up on the front sight ever.
On the M4-ish rifles I run Troy Folding Battle Sights front and rear. Zeroed, then folded town to prevent damage as my main sight would be an Aimpoint.
On my "SPR" I have KAC Micros because the rear allows me to dial for elevation easier if I have to take a shot at a distance other than 50/200 and I don't have to rely on a hold over. Both are folded down as well, the front for safety and the rear because its below the scope objective. The scope is on a LaRue mount so it can be quickly removed in case of damage and the back-up sights employed.
I run a KAC 300M folding rear, FSB and a fullsize 2MOA Aimpoint in a lower 1/3 mount.
I used to run a fixed front and rear with a T-1 Micro in a lower 1/3 QD mount, but I never warmed up to the Micro.
I came to understand that if I ever "lost" my dot, I could only see the irons through the Micro if I was in broad daylight or almost complete darkness [with a light].
As already mentioned, the FSP up front helps with presentation and indexing the gun. The rear sight is a just in case thing.
Working weapon and I run a fixed front. Not as objectionable as I used to be about rails and rail mounted fronts with certain rail / sight set ups on the market now. Fixed rear sight unless if I am running an optic that needs a folder. Sights always up has zero negative effect on my shooting / abilities and only has positives.
I tried several things and developed my own way this weekend training with Kyle Lamb. Yes, apparently an RDS DOES! have paralax, even at 100 yards. Flipping the front BUIS up fixed group shift at 100 for me, and when in roll-over prone, and other positions from behind cover, the front sight provided a way to accurately gauge cant on the fly, as well as providing a "reference" so that I knew I was looking at things correctly shooting support-side, etc. Sometimes you can get so caught up in things that you do stupid crap like look through a left-hand shouldered rifle with the right eye---or try to---etc. FSB up prevents 99% of that monkeybusiness.
Just what I learned. Do what you want.Unfortunately many do not understand this concept. Another thing for those with eye issues who might get certain "artifacts" such as "blooming" or "dual dots" with their red dot optics, if you line up the dot and sight through the rear peep you get a nice clean small dot. Much better for precision at distances.
Fixed rear sight unless if I am running an optic that needs a folder. Sights always up has zero negative effect on my shooting / abilities and only has positives.
This is it.
davidjinks
04-23-13, 14:07
All BUIS are folding, KAC 200-600 meter sights. I have one KAC micro rear BUIS 200-600 M used in conjunction with a URX 3.0.
Any rifle with a 1-4 scope and the sights stay in the down position. Current setup is 1/3 for the rifles I currently run.
Any rifle with an Aimpoint will be run in the up position. I prefer to have a lower 1/3 with my aimpoints.
The only time this changes is if I have a fixed FSB. The. That is always in the up position. Example, I have a LE6920 fixed FSB rear KAC 200-600 BUIS and a NF 1-4. The rear is run in the down position because of the scope.
Out of the BUIS I have used, the sight picture I get with the KAC sights are the clearest. For me, they are very fast to acquire a sight picture and I like the ease of the elevation adjustment.
Curious as to who, what, and why...
Do you run fixed or folding? Front up, both up, neither up?
Lower 1/3, 50/50, or whatever you feel best fits your face? If shooting from unconventional positions does your preference change?
The contract was filled after we bought more sights than we have rifles and carbines.
Poor until level accountability (probably half of them have been sold on ebay and the gun boards) does not really change the fact that USMC policy is ever rifle and carbine is to have a BUIS
If that is the policy somebody needs to update/inform the Marine Corp Marksmanship Program with it. As far as I know the Marine Corp Marksmanship Program (both CMC and CMT) are the Bible of Marine Corp Marksmanship. Since I just graduated CMC and was specifically told that BUIS were dropped from the Marksmanship Program due to cost ineffectiveness I have to believe that it is true. Not to mention the fact that it is now my Military Occupation to teach Marines and Recruits how to shoot and we don't even mention iron sights, at all. Granted all the one we used to have may be stolen and sold, but "we" sure as heck aren't buying anymore.
Not that its worth a whole lot, but I have seen so many pictures of Marines with AOCGs and no BUIS that I was starting to wonder...
No need to wonder sir, the Marine Corps no longer issues BUIS. You will not see one with them.
Up until 08 there was no program of record for BUISs in the Marines and it was up to units. From 08 on they were a system push item and we have bought more of them than we have weapons to put them on.
But most Marines did not even know what a BUIS was and it was assumed that since they got iron sight training at Boot or TBS they did not need BUIS specific training; zeroing and usage of a BUIS was added to doctrine just last year.
I don't know when the removed from doctrine, but we sure as h*ll don't cover or teach it anymore.
one rifle has trijicon reflex, troy flips are down unless i need to reach out because i have an astigmatism and the dot at 200m is pretty big. other rifle has 1-4x with duecks.
Troy flips, front and back. They both stay down and are zeroed at 100 yards. If I need them, they're ready.
I don't know when the removed from doctrine, but we sure as h*ll don't cover or teach it anymore.
It was added Oct of 12 to the MCRP 3-01A that Marine Corps' modular weapon system consists of either an M16A4 or M4 with a RCO as its primary sight and a backup iron sight
Which units CMCs or CMT are not teaching it and what victor units are not issuing them because the infantry advocate insists they all are.
7.62WildBill
04-23-13, 16:47
My 6920 has the standard FSB, an Aimpoint T-1 on a LaRue QD mount (lower 1/3), and a DD 1.5 fixed rear. Why? Because that is what LAV recommends. I tried it, and it works for me.
I have Fixed DD front and rear with a Pro. Have thought about getting a folding rear but at the same time it doesn't really bother me to have the fixed sights. I know that no matter what I am gtg.
ChrisCross
04-23-13, 17:51
My 6920 has the standard FSB, an Aimpoint CompM4s on a LaRue QD mount (lower 1/3), and a Troy Flip-up rear.
- I run this way since it works for me and got me through my 1st VSM Carbine class in one piece. Well Chris & Steve @ Defensive Concepts probably had more to do with that tbh... excellent guys and good teachers.
Fiancee's 6720 has the standard FSB, an Aimpoint T-1 on a LaRue QD (Absolute co-witness) and a Magpul MBUS rear. This setup also got her through the VSM Carbine course.
- She runs it that way cause it makes her happy and I'm not messing with what works and keeps her happy.
7.62WildBill
04-23-13, 18:51
- She runs it that way cause it makes her happy and I'm not messing with what works and keeps her happy.
Wise man. :smile:
Flip front and rear. I use a scope on QD mount that is why I have the flip sights. I also have a Aimpoint Comp M2 on a 1/3 cowitness QD mount. The flip sights are also back ups for when optics go down or I just practice the old school way.
I think a flip front is useful vs. a fixed because at longer distances one can turn down the gain on the Aimpoint/Eotech/whatever, flip up the rear BUIS to sharpen the dot, flip DOWN the front BUIS to allow hold-over without obscuring the target. I have not practiced this, but it sounds logical to me. Somewhat of a question to those who might have done similar...does this work in the real world? I did not have a hold-over out to 200 yards at Streetfighter, so I did not test it.
My primary carbine has an H1 on a DD lower 1/3 mount, larue QD fixed rear and an FSB. My backup carbine is irons only with a cutdown carry handle rear sight and an FSB. I like the solid simplicity of fixed irons and having my backup system already in place.
I have also used a troy folding rear sight, QD acog in conjunction w/FSB. Theyre currently sitting in the back of the safe.
I initially used this system in case of battery failure. Now as this becomes an even more remote possibility I keep them in place more for if my dot gets washed out by light conditions. Some other good benefits pointed out above that are new to me, learning has occured!
I guess aslong as they dont interfer with your optic and you dont feel crowded by them there arent any real drawbacks
My primary carbine has an H1 on a DD lower 1/3 mount, larue QD fixed rear and an FSB. My backup carbine is irons only with a cutdown carry handle rear sight and an FSB. I like the solid simplicity of fixed irons and having my backup system already in place.
I have also used a troy folding rear sight, QD acog in conjunction w/FSB. Theyre currently sitting in the back of the safe.
I initially used this system in case of battery failure. Now as this becomes an even more remote possibility I keep them in place more for if my dot gets washed out by light conditions. Some other good benefits pointed out above that are new to me, learning has occured!
I guess aslong as they dont interfer with your optic and you dont feel crowded by them there arent any real drawbacks
I run Troy's, front up, rear down. Even with the rear up, I don't feel crowded with the same setup you have (T1/DD lower 1/3).
It was added Oct of 12 to the MCRP 3-01A that Marine Corps' modular weapon system consists of either an M16A4 or M4 with a RCO as its primary sight and a backup iron sight
Which units CMCs or CMT are not teaching it and what victor units are not issuing them because the infantry advocate insists they all are.
You won't see BUIS on ANY Marine Corps. AR weapons systems. They aren't issued. THE CMC, Edson Range, doesn't teach it. They don't even recognize graduates of other bases CMCs. This was a great conversation, but I grow weary of it.
P.S. MCRP 3-01A Hasn't been updated since Feb of 1999. Before we even had RCOs (ACOGs) or BUIS. Iron sights were the only sights. It still talks about the M-16A2 for Pete's sake. What page does it mention the M4 or RCO?
You won't see BUIS on ANY Marine Corps. AR weapons systems. They aren't issued. THE CMC, Edson Range, doesn't teach it. They don't even recognize graduates of other bases CMCs. This was a great conversation, but I grow weary of it.
Not to highjack the thread, but is that just a Marine thing?
Not to highjack the thread, but is that just a Marine thing?
Yes. Army and AF get BUIS and training with them. Navy don't get optics as far as I've seen, so their BUIS are primary sights.
I use fixed sights front and rear. My front sights are standard pinned "F" marked sights. I use a Aimpoint PRO with a YHM fixed rear sight on my Colt. My irons are in the lower 1/3 of my Aimpoint. I use the carry handle sight on my Stag. All my sights and Aimpoint are zeroed at 100 yards. I'm going to put XS Sights same plan tritium sights in both carbines.
NYH1.
You won't see BUIS on ANY Marine Corps. AR weapons systems. They aren't issued. THE CMC, Edson Range, doesn't teach it. They don't even recognize graduates of other bases CMCs. This was a great conversation, but I grow weary of it.
P.S. MCRP 3-01A Hasn't been updated since Feb of 1999. Before we even had RCOs (ACOGs) or BUIS. Iron sights were the only sights. It still talks about the M-16A2 for Pete's sake. What page does it mention the M4 or RCO?
You are two version of the doctrine behind
http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz337/R0N_photos/MCRP_zps9624c520.jpg
Berserkr556
04-24-13, 05:53
My carbines all have the F marked front sight base and a Troy folding battlesight in the rear. Aimpoint T-1 micro and absolute co-witness.
I run an Acog without BUIS, if the cog fails I switch over to tracer rounds...:p
Folding, both down. Why? Because I'll never use them except to zero and to practice for the time when I will need them... Which is probably never. But they're there just in case.
I agree - flip-down Troys or MBUS and lower-third zero. And although I do keep them zeroed, I rarely practice with them. RDS are pretty reliable these days...BUIS are not a real important component of my practice regimen.
wetidlerjr
04-24-13, 06:51
What does this mean? Are they authorized but not used by any Marines at all?
From:AUTHORIZED INDIVIDUAL WEAPONS, OPTICS, MODULAR ATTACHMENTS AND MODIFICATIONS AUTHORIZED FOR ANNUAL RIFLE AND PISTOL TRAINING FOR FISCAL YEAR (FY) 13
BUIS, KNIGHTS
ARMAMENT 200-600M 1005014996868 M16A4, M4, M4A1
BUIS, KNIGHTS
ARMAMENT 200-600M 1005015815324 M16A4, M4, M4A1
BUIS, KNIGHTS
ARMAMENT 300M 1005014496306 M4, M4A1
BUIS, MATECH 600M 1005014848000 M16A4, M4, M4A1
SIGHT, FRONT FLIP
LINK:AUTHORIZED INDIVIDUAL WEAPONS, OPTICS, MODULAR ATTACHMENTS AND MODIFICATIONS AUTHORIZED FOR ANNUAL RIFLE AND PISTOL TRAINING FOR FISCAL YEAR (FY) 13 (http://www.marines.mil/News/Messages/MessagesDisplay/tabid/13286/Article/138497/authorized-individual-weapons-optics-modular-attachments-and-modifications-auth.aspx)
Failure2Stop
04-24-13, 07:17
What does this mean? Are they authorized but not used by any Marines at all?
From:AUTHORIZED INDIVIDUAL WEAPONS, OPTICS, MODULAR ATTACHMENTS AND MODIFICATIONS AUTHORIZED FOR ANNUAL RIFLE AND PISTOL TRAINING FOR FISCAL YEAR (FY) 13
LINK:AUTHORIZED INDIVIDUAL WEAPONS, OPTICS, MODULAR ATTACHMENTS AND MODIFICATIONS AUTHORIZED FOR ANNUAL RIFLE AND PISTOL TRAINING FOR FISCAL YEAR (FY) 13 (http://www.marines.mil/News/Messages/MessagesDisplay/tabid/13286/Article/138497/authorized-individual-weapons-optics-modular-attachments-and-modifications-auth.aspx)
Despite what someone is saying, the BUIS is absolutely issued at the unit level to the individual. There are, of course, several thousand missing from USMC inventory due to theft and loss. What the MARADMIN is saying is what can/may be attached to the weapon during qualification.
wetidlerjr
04-24-13, 07:38
Despite what someone is saying, the BUIS is absolutely issued at the unit level to the individual. There are, of course, several thousand missing from USMC inventory due to theft and loss. What the MARADMIN is saying is what can/may be attached to the weapon during qualification.
OK, thanks!
Tiny Killer Robot
04-24-13, 10:32
6920 with fixed front, Troy folding rear, and Aimpoint M3. Lower 1/3.
Not high speed, but highly utilitarian.
You are two version of the doctrine behind
http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz337/R0N_photos/MCRP_zps9624c520.jpg
With all due respect sir, maybe you or your friends should write to the Marine Corps. Marksmanship School House (where they are making the coaches and instructors) and inform them that they need to be teaching BUIS again. They certainly do not teach them, as of late.
Despite what someone is saying, the BUIS is absolutely issued at the unit level to the individual. There are, of course, several thousand missing from USMC inventory due to theft and loss. What the MARADMIN is saying is what can/may be attached to the weapon during qualification.
That is an interesting statement to make sir, I have to assume that you are in the Marine Corps. Maybe you could inform your unit that they are issued these BUIS because as of right now, you are the only one in that unit with this information.
Don't you find it interesting the KAC salesman is telling you that his product is still issued to the military (USMC).
In the end, it doesn't really matter :). Please post and tell me how wrong I am again, but as the latest graduate of the most up to date Marksmanship Coaches Course and as a certified "subject matter expert," I say good luck to you in finding a current weapon system in the Marine Corps. with BUIS attached. And if you do find this fluke, I assure you it will not be around for much longer as BUIS are obsolete as far as Marine Corps. Marksmanship is concerned. Will they change it in the future? Who knows?
Sorry Jack.
I run folding rear, fixed front, with RD. Although I still like good old irons.
Failure2Stop
04-24-13, 23:22
In the end, it doesn't really matter :). Please post and tell me how wrong I am again, but as the latest graduate of the most up to date Marksmanship Coaches Course and as a certified "subject matter expert," I say good luck to you in finding a current weapon system in the Marine Corps. with BUIS attached. And if you do find this fluke, I assure you it will not be around for much longer as BUIS are obsolete as far as Marine Corps. Marksmanship is concerned. Will they change it in the future? Who knows?
Sorry Jack.
Going to give you a little information here.
"R0N" is a high ranking Marine stationed at a pretty significant military fixture in Northern Virginia. I'm not going to disclose his identity without his consent, but he quite literally is "the" USMC weapons expert.
I am no longer an active duty Marine. My last combat deployment was with 3/8 in 2011. I left service after 15 years to pursue another path. That path is clearly noted in my sig line. However, I do maintain a significant relationship with the Corps by virtue of my fairly extensive personal relationships that were forged over the years as a SNCO, my years as a marksmanship and tactics instructor, the time I spent in Quantico writing/validating/instructing the Combat Marksmanship Program with my staff, my personal business as a civilian trainer, and in the employment of Knight's Armament Company.
Out of curiosity I checked www.marines.mil and found the following:
http://www.31stmeu.marines.mil/News/NewsArticleView/tabid/7377/Article/121342/31st-meu-marines-engage-targets-at-sea.aspx
-Check the pics
http://www.15thmeu.marines.mil/News/NewsArticleDisplay/tabid/8671/Article/119748/clb-15-calibrates-rifles-at-sea.aspx
-Check the pics
All of the following were uploaded within the last month:
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm174/Fail2Stop/BUIS4.jpg
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm174/Fail2Stop/BUIS1.jpg
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm174/Fail2Stop/BUIS5.jpg
Two Marines on the left have MATECH sights, guy on the right is hard to see, but the knob of the USMC back-up iron sight is apparent if you know what to look for.
I understand that you feel all shiny and special because you just passed Coaches course, but I assure you that you have just begun to scratch the surface of becoming a subject matter expert. Your comments regarding what you were taught reinforces my impression of Edson range formed 7 years ago when I went out there with a cadre to teach one of the first CMC/CMT classes to bring the program on line. I have witnessed some abhorrent instruction regarding the program (they still teaching the rifle horse-stance?). Simply because material has not made its way into the POI does not mean that it shouldn't be there, or that it isn't in the process of being inserted. More pointedly, it most certainly doesn't imply that your CMC instructors know what every unit in the Corps is or is not issuing.
If you truly want to become a subject matter expert, and if you truly want to improve the program (which the Corps is in dire need of), I would recommend that you pay attention to what is being said by those that have a bit more information and experience. I am talking about more than this conversation or myself here; this forum is a phenomenal repository of freely shared information from some of the worlds foremost experts on subjects ranging from weapon configuration to effective employment of personal small arms.
I would have much preferred to discuss this privately, but your decision to post your replies on an open forum kind of forced my hand.
Have a meritorious day.
Going to give you a little information here.
"R0N" is a high ranking Marine stationed at a pretty significant military fixture in Northern Virginia. I'm not going to disclose his identity without his consent, but he quite literally is "the" USMC weapons expert.
I am no longer an active duty Marine. My last combat deployment was with 3/8 in 2011. I left service after 15 years to pursue another path. That path is clearly noted in my sig line. However, I do maintain a significant relationship with the Corps by virtue of my fairly extensive personal relationships that were forged over the years as a SNCO, my years as a marksmanship and tactics instructor, the time I spent in Quantico writing/validating/instructing the Combat Marksmanship Program with my staff, my personal business as a civilian trainer, and in the employment of Knight's Armament Company.
Out of curiosity I checked www.marines.mil and found the following:
http://www.31stmeu.marines.mil/News/NewsArticleView/tabid/7377/Article/121342/31st-meu-marines-engage-targets-at-sea.aspx
-Check the pics
http://www.15thmeu.marines.mil/News/NewsArticleDisplay/tabid/8671/Article/119748/clb-15-calibrates-rifles-at-sea.aspx
-Check the pics
All of the following were uploaded within the last month:
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm174/Fail2Stop/BUIS4.jpg (http://s296.photobucket.com/user/Fail2Stop/media/BUIS4.jpg.html)
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm174/Fail2Stop/BUIS1.jpg (http://s296.photobucket.com/user/Fail2Stop/media/BUIS1.jpg.html)
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm174/Fail2Stop/BUIS5.jpg (http://s296.photobucket.com/user/Fail2Stop/media/BUIS5.jpg.html)
Two Marines on the left have MATECH sights, guy on the right is hard to see, but the knob of the USMC back-up iron sight is apparent if you know what to look for.
I understand that you feel all shiny and special because you just passed Coaches course, but I assure you that you have just begun to scratch the surface of becoming a subject matter expert. Your comments regarding what you were taught reinforces my impression of Edson range formed 7 years ago when I went out there with a cadre to teach one of the first CMC/CMT classes to bring the program on line. I have witnessed some abhorrent instruction regarding the program (they still teaching the rifle horse-stance?). Simply because material has not made its way into the POI does not mean that it shouldn't be there, or that it isn't in the process of being inserted. More pointedly, it most certainly doesn't imply that your CMC instructors know what every unit in the Corps is or is not issuing.
If you truly want to become a subject matter expert, and if you truly want to improve the program (which the Corps is in dire need of), I would recommend that you pay attention to what is being said by those that have a bit more information and experience. I am talking about more than this conversation or myself here; this forum is a phenomenal repository of freely shared information from some of the worlds foremost experts on subjects ranging from weapon configuration to effective employment of personal small arms.
I would have much preferred to discuss this privately, but your decision to post your replies on an open forum kind of forced my hand.
Have a meritorious day.
I, for one, am glad discussions happen in the open. That way everyone can learn.
What is the rifle horse stance?
Yes. Army and AF get BUIS and training with them. Navy don't get optics as far as I've seen, so their BUIS are primary sights.
I was never trained on irons at OSUT, though I can't speak for an AD unit (I realize this is where most of the training happens, thankfully).
Out of curiosity I checked www.marines.mil and found the following
In case extra verification is needed,
USMC pic thread (http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?167027-The-United-States-Marine-Corps/page273&highlight=marine)
There are a decent amount without irons (which was the reason for my original post on page 1), but most do have them. Definitely seems to be unit based.
As for my preference, I run MBUS Gen II's w/ absolute. I actually sold my Troy's because the MBUS are quicker and easier to deploy.
FWIW, the Force Recon marine/instructor (of some sort in the USMC? I don't know, just what I gathered) that attended the VTAC course I went to this last weekend had a Matech, it looked like, on his rifle. Dunno anything about what is or isn't issued, but that's what he was running.
I use Troy folding front and rear with Aimpoint T1.
7.62WildBill
04-25-13, 06:08
That is an interesting statement to make sir, I have to assume that you are in the Marine Corps. Maybe you could inform your unit that they are issued these BUIS because as of right now, you are the only one in that unit with this information.
Don't you find it interesting the KAC salesman is telling you that his product is still issued to the military (USMC).
Here is a little more background on this "salesman".
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=94088
Thank you for your service F2S (and any other vet who reads this).
Aimpoint T-1 1/3 cowitness. Standard FSB with DD fixed rear.
Failure2Stop
04-25-13, 07:20
FWIW, the Force Recon marine/instructor (of some sort in the USMC? I don't know, just what I gathered) that attended the VTAC course I went to this last weekend had a Matech, it looked like, on his rifle. Dunno anything about what is or isn't issued, but that's what he was running.
Yeah.
The BUIS thing is anything but uniform.
I have seen both Matech and KAC sights issued.
I know that several thousand were stolen, and probably an equal number "given away" by commanders to their troops.
Institutionally, there seems to be a distinct lack of understanding on the matter.
From a buddy of mine, "We have full on carry handles which I would estimate 50% of Marines have. [snip] Other than IAR, no gun goes out with BUIS."
From another buddy (different unit), "Some do [have BUIS], some don't. Depends on what we want and who you are working for."
When asked about the IAR:"Yeah, IARs have them [KAC BUIS]."
And for some background:
KAC made the first delivery of 5,000 USMC marked sights in June of 2010.
Contract was completed in Oct of 2012, with over 200,000 sights delivered.
Contract was filled 2 years ahead of schedule.
Yeah.
The BUIS thing is anything but uniform.
I have seen both Matech and KAC sights issued.
I know that several thousand were stolen, and probably an equal number "given away" by commanders to their troops.
Institutionally, there seems to be a distinct lack of understanding on the matter.
From a buddy of mine, "We have full on carry handles which I would estimate 50% of Marines have. [snip] Other than IAR, no gun goes out with BUIS."
From another buddy (different unit), "Some do [have BUIS], some don't. Depends on what we want and who you are working for."
When asked about the IAR:"Yeah, IARs have them [KAC BUIS]."
And for some background:
KAC made the first delivery of 5,000 USMC marked sights in June of 2010.
Contract was completed in Oct of 2012, with over 200,000 sights delivered.
Contract was filled 2 years ahead of schedule.
The problem with BUIS as you have said, they are not understood within the Marine Corps, it takes a committed gunner (which for the non-informed, non-infantry battalions lack) to make sure everyone knows what they are and how they work.
The Gunners have been trying to push hard on this and numerous other lack of education issues when it comes to weapons and gear; hence the whole reason for the previously cited MARADMIN. The getting rid of the Range Officer MOS was a first start, but we have a ways to go.
You probably experienced the same thing I have in the recent past when a piece of gear showed up and there was no training to support it and it was up to the person getting the gear to just figure it out; OIF and OEF have been good to the military and we have gotten a whole bunch of new equipment but we may have gotten to the point we need to take a breather and let training and experience catch up to procurement before we move to the newest and greatest. Let's face it, it is not 2003 when the typical riflemen had 5K worth of gear to go to war, today that same guy goes to war with something like 25K in gear.
I hope everyone enjoyed. :)
Folding, both down. Why? Because I'll never use them except to zero and to practice for the time when I will need them... Which is probably never. But they're there just in case.
^^^ this.
I have two troy "HK" style back up sights all folded down with a eo tech exps3-4. You cant beat the iron sights when SHTF.
Plumber237
05-01-13, 15:05
I run fixed front, Magpul BUIS down, with a Aimpoint M2 sitting with a lower 1/3 co-witness...I like having a fixed front, for close in snap shooting (like up drills) you can just center the post in the aimpoint instead of finding the dot...that seems faster, atleast for me.
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