View Full Version : Blasting ammo.. Herters. (Update Pg 3)
Shot some of the Herters 62 grain ammo yesterday. It functions pretty good. It cycled one of my 14.5 middies just fine.
It chrono'd at about 2830 fps out of a 20 inch Colt AR15. Accuracy is not very good and the Standard Deviation was in the 40s.
But the stuff isn't too bad for blasting. If anyone is desparate for practice ammo PM me for a few hundred rounds at a little less than Cabelas sells it. ;)
TEST RESULTS ON PAGE 3
polymorpheous
04-14-13, 10:43
My understanding is that it is just repackaged Tula.
They had this stuff for $4 a box a couple years ago.
Bought a couple of cases of it.
Ran fine for blaster ammo.
The headstamp was the same as the Tula ammo Cabela's carried.
Markm does the bullet attract a magnet?
skijunkie55
04-14-13, 11:13
And it didn't blow up?! Good deal :D
Cabela's now owns the name Herters. They will brand "their ammunition" with the Heretrs name. Most is Tula ammo. They have a brass offering in pistol ammo but I am not sure the actual origin.
Herters would not function in any of my rifles UNTIL I put A5 SYSTEMS in them. All my barrels are either BCM or DD.
Markm does the bullet attract a magnet?
Good question.. I'll try that tonight... I'd bet it does.
And it didn't blow up?! Good deal :D
No. I only tried a couple boxes... but it functions pretty good. I would'nt run this stuff in my best ARs... but I have a few older ones that I don't mind running it in.
Shot some of the Herters 62 grain ammo yesterday. It functions pretty good. It cycled one of my 14.5 middies just fine.
For the knowledge pool... What buffer?
Aww crap... :confused:
Good question... I can't remember which buffer is in that gun. I'll check it out tonight.
For the knowledge pool... What buffer?
I bought a pile of this stuff (55 gr version) at $3.99/bx last year too and it runs every gun I have. A 16" mid BCM, a 14.5" mid BCM and a 16" mid PSA. All with H buffers & GI springs.
It's cheap, dirty, stinks, inconsistent and inaccurate, but it was really cheap. I find it to be excellent for close in drills or general blasting.
Ymmv.
It's cheap, dirty, stinks, inconsistent and inaccurate, but it was really cheap. I find it to be excellent for close in drills or general blasting.
I didn't notice a stink. And the cases were piling up nicely at 4 oclock. I did however notice the poor accuracy. I only tried one rifle on paper... and it looked like 4 moa ammo.
I didn't notice a stink. And the cases were piling up nicely at 4 oclock. I did however notice the poor accuracy. I only tried one rifle on paper... and it looked like 4 moa ammo.
Ok, stinks more than Varget or factory Federal. :) Maybe it's just my sniffer?
I have poi shift of around 1.5" at 50yds vs AE223 and I'd agree with the 4 MOA accuracy. For cheap blaster food I much prefer the MFS zinc coated stuff, but given that Herters is good-n-cheap and I have a Cabelas in my town that generally always has it in stock, (even right now) I tend to buy alot of it.
Yeah.. I don't think I fired enough to notice the fragrance yet. :p
I'm going to run some of this in my beater gun... It's always nice to shoot ammo where I don't have to sort/process brass when I get home.
... and it looked like 4 moa ammo.
Oh great, I wouldn't notice the difference :sarcastic:
I notice the stink. Typical import russian smell. Not offensive, but there.
Accuracy varies. 4 MOA is probably a pretty good number, but there have been better runs. Fine for blasting and drills to large target zones.
Mark- An H-buffered middy will sometimes chug and choke on these. With an H2, more consistently. I use the Herters as a load to ID threshold.
Littlelebowski
04-15-13, 10:20
I need to know the gas port size on your test rifle before committing to anything.
I use the Herters as a load to ID threshold.
I shot a hand load with XBR 8208 powder that only chrono'd 30 fps faster with ss109 pulled bullets... And that load was near or slightly over publish max.
I need to know the gas port size on your test rifle before committing to anything.
On the 14.5 middy I shot the ammo through, there is a port of .080". It might have an A5 buffer system in it... I just can't remember.
Littlelebowski
04-15-13, 10:35
On the 14.5 middy I shot the ammo through, there is a port of .080". It might have an A5 buffer system in it... I just can't remember.
NOT ENOUGH INFORMATION
NOT ENOUGH INFORMATION
What do you want to know?? It's a 14.5 middy Sabre Defence barrel, Chrome lined, lo pro gas block.
I just can't remember the buffer set up.
Littlelebowski
04-15-13, 10:42
What do you want to know?? It's a 14.5 middy Sabre Defence barrel, Chrome lined, lo pro gas block.
I just can't remember the buffer set up.
You fail gun forums. How can I trust this ammo to save me when the SHTF?
You fail gun forums. How can I trust this ammo to save me when the SHTF?
It's all about the MATH!
What do you want to know??
At this point all you left out is whether you were wearing a hat or not.
Anyway did you try the magnet?
Edit: Realized you said tonight this morning, so that means this tonight. Got it. :happy:
Yep. The bullets stick to a magnet...
And the buffer system is the A5 with standard A5 kit buffer. :)
Yep. The bullets stick to a magnet...
And the buffer system is the A5 with standard A5 kit buffer. :)
Thanks.
I was wondering because the outdoor range I go to does not like you shooting steel core rounds at their steel targets.
Travelingchild
04-15-13, 19:43
Thanks.
I was wondering because the outdoor range I go to does not like you shooting steel core rounds at their steel targets.
Actually, its a copper clad thin steel Jacket, Not "Steel core" as many refer to it.
Actually, its a copper clad thin steel Jacket, Not "Steel core" as many refer to it.
Exactly this. Unfortunately some ranges will bar it if it sticks to a magnet, however. Some will also claim that the bi-metal jacket is an increased fire hazard due to the tendency to spark when it hits a hard object (rocks, concrete etc).
As someone else said, Herters is simply rebranded ammo that comes from the Tula factory in Russia. It is the worst of the bunch - generally speaking, you are better off with stuff that comes from Barnaul (i.e. the Bears, or last year or two newer Wolf "WPA", after they changed factories. The Barnaul produced ammo is in general slightly hotter and more consistent round to round, and is slightly more accurate (i.e. 2.5-3 MOA instead of 4).
As someone else said, Herters is simply rebranded ammo that comes from the Tula factory in Russia. It is the worst of the bunch - generally speaking, you are better off with stuff that comes from Barnaul (i.e. the Bears, or last year or two newer Wolf "WPA", after they changed factories. The Barnaul produced ammo is in general slightly hotter and more consistent round to round, and is slightly more accurate (i.e. 2.5-3 MOA instead of 4).
I was surprised that it was this functional. I might try to pull some of the bullets and shoot them in my handloads... AND put some matchkings in the Herters cases to see why the accuracy is so poor.
The cases? The bullets? etc.
TheAxeShooter
04-15-13, 20:49
Herters is just Tulammo repackaged. I shot 100 rounds of it through my AR last weekend. I didn't shoot any paper but it works great for shooting at cars, barrels, and boats! I didn't have one malfunction with it, and ejection patterns were pretty consistent.
I was surprised that it was this functional. I might try to pull some of the bullets and shoot them in my handloads... AND put some matchkings in the Herters cases to see why the accuracy is so poor.
The cases? The bullets? etc.
That'd be an interesting experiment - go for it! I strongly suspect the inconsistent loadings and bullets, rather than cases. For instance, the Hornady steel case ammo is basically using Hornady bullets, powder and measured loadings in cases sourced from Barnaul - and it is damn accurate and consistent.
Using the bimetal jacket rounds in your own cases and with your own loads, in comparison to your usual SMK's or whatever - great idea, look forward to seeing the results :)
I'll split up a 20 round box and try some stuff out. May even get frisky and check bullet runout and weigh some of the powder charges to see if that plays any part in the bad accuracy.
CrazyFingers
04-16-13, 08:33
generally speaking, you are better off with stuff that comes from Barnaul (i.e. the Bears, or last year or two newer Wolf "WPA", after they changed factories.
I've noticed that the Brown/Silver bear I have and the newer Wolf WPA both have identical head stamps (same source?). Both have been reliable in my BCM middy. Tula...not so much.
Both have been reliable in my BCM middy. Tula...not so much.
I think the .080" port on the 14.5 middy I tried was why the ammo ran so well. That's the right port size for a 14.5 middy in my opinion.
0.076" is too picky for my tastes.... and .080 doesn't behave like an overgassed beast.
steyrman13
04-16-13, 09:12
Have any of y'all read the article on comparing crappy ammo and "quality" ammo and barrel life? It compares brown bear, Tula, wold, and federal xm193. Needless to say barrels were ruined in less than 5k through the three lesser brands and exceed 10k+ with federal. Keep in mind they were bushy barrels though....
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/
Littlelebowski
04-16-13, 09:13
I think the .080" port on the 14.5 middy I tried was why the ammo ran so well. That's the right port size for a 14.5 middy in my opinion.
0.076" is too picky for my tastes.... and .080 doesn't behave like an overgassed beast.
This is my formal request that markm be given the title "Gas port size SME"
Thank you.
This is my formal request that markm be given the title "Gas port size SME"
Thank you.
Righting the gas port on a miserable SBR has indeed sparked a gas port fetish. ;)
It's like when the Dog Whisperer takes a total mess of a dog and makes him a dream Pooch.
CrazyFingers
04-16-13, 11:32
Have any of y'all read the article on comparing crappy ammo and "quality" ammo and barrel life? It compares brown bear, Tula, wold, and federal xm193. Needless to say barrels were ruined in less than 5k through the three lesser brands and exceed 10k+ with federal. Keep in mind they were bushy barrels though....
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/
And did you look at the graphs that showed you'd be ahead money-wise to go ahead and "ruin" your barrel and then replace it with the savings from steel-cased ammunition?
(HINT: you had to scroll down to the bottom)
http://labscdn.luckygunner.com/labs/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Brass-vs.-Steel-Sunday-e1357509017349.png
Math is fun!
This exact topic has been beaten to death in several threads, focusing on the extreme firing rate of this test among other possible reasons why this isn't that a big deal to most people.
Yeah the economics are well covered.
The point here is that the Herters doesn't seem to be a terrible blasting round.
Are both the brass and the steel case Tula?
Are both the brass and the steel case Tula?
Assuming you're referring to the line graph.... The brass ammo, I believe, was Federal 223.
I don't think Tula has a brass case 223 load.
CrazyFingers
04-16-13, 15:19
Barnaul makes Golden Bear, which is a "brass" coated Berdan abortion that serves no purpose other than to irritate people who think they're getting some usable range pickup brass only to have their decapping pins puke when they get the damned things home.
Or so I've heard...:rolleyes:
I bought a few hundred brass cased Herter's 5.56 in December. The color of the box was different but the box was otherwise the same.
steyrman13
04-16-13, 16:31
And did you look at the graphs that showed you'd be ahead money-wise to go ahead and "ruin" your barrel and then replace it with the savings from steel-cased ammunition?
(HINT: you had to scroll down to the bottom)
http://labscdn.luckygunner.com/labs/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Brass-vs.-Steel-Sunday-e1357509017349.png
Math is fun!
This exact topic has been beaten to death in several threads, focusing on the extreme firing rate of this test among other possible reasons why this isn't that a big deal to most people.
I guess i missed that last graph. I guess it depends on the cost of barrel and accuracy issue as well. Maybe not as bad assuming you can find the barrel you want and have time to swap it out. I can just picture having to train with a barrel, firing 3000 rounds in a training session, then having to swap barrel out, then re-zero, etc. Maybe LMT MRP would be the most appealing!
I guess i missed that last graph. I guess it depends on the cost of barrel and accuracy issue as well. Maybe not as bad assuming you can find the barrel you want and have time to swap it out.
Good point on the barrel being available whenst you needith it. ;)
I doubt that parts would ever be hard to find though. :eek:
Littlelebowski
04-16-13, 17:50
I guess i missed that last graph. I guess it depends on the cost of barrel and accuracy issue as well. Maybe not as bad assuming you can find the barrel you want and have time to swap it out. I can just picture having to train with a barrel, firing 3000 rounds in a training session, then having to swap barrel out, then re-zero, etc. Maybe LMT MRP would be the most appealing!
That's a lot of rounds for a training session.
steyrman13
04-16-13, 18:40
That's a lot of rounds for a training session.
I guess a little zealous, but most carbine classes require 1000-1500 add a little spare and you get close to 2k mark in a weekend. I know several competitors that can sometimes shoot 3k in a weekend before a match
steyrman13
04-16-13, 18:44
Good point on the barrel being available whenst you needith it. ;)
I doubt that parts would ever be hard to find though. :eek:
Not too hard to find online and order, but as far as running down to a LGS to get same day, good luck around here. Many around here, including some of the largest retailers(not big box) just now started carrying DD guns, LWRCI, etc. no KAC, LMT, BCM, Noveske, etc. I guess I'll have to open up my own store! (Working towards that goal and a 550m range!)
I'm playing legos with this ammo and some matchkings and Hodgdon powder.
I measured 6 of the Hert charges and they were:
21.0
21.3
21.1
21.2
21.0
21.1
Not bad for super economy ammo with extruded powder.
The cases are boxer primed.... I'd have thought for sure they'd be berdan.
This nerdy ass experiment is going to be fun. :p
I've noticed that the Brown/Silver bear I have and the newer Wolf WPA both have identical head stamps (same source?). Both have been reliable in my BCM middy. Tula...not so much.
Exactly...its the Barnaul head stamp you are looking at.
steyrman13
04-16-13, 20:30
I'm playing legos with this ammo and some matchkings and Hodgdon powder.
I measured 6 of the Hert charges and they were:
21.0
21.3
21.1
21.2
21.0
21.1
Not bad for super economy ammo with extruded powder.
The cases are boxer primed.... I'd have thought for sure they'd be berdan.
This nerdy ass experiment is going to be fun. :p
I'm interested in the result from the swaps on accuracy as well!
I'm playing legos with this ammo and some matchkings and Hodgdon powder.
I measured 6 of the Hert charges and they were:
21.0
21.3
21.1
21.2
21.0
21.1
Not bad for super economy ammo with extruded powder.
The cases are boxer primed.... I'd have thought for sure they'd be berdan.
This nerdy ass experiment is going to be fun. :p
I have heard that some extreme tightwads actually reload those boxer primed steel cases as well....
CrazyFingers
04-16-13, 20:37
Can you resize steel cases?
Do you even need to?
That's some serious tightwad-action.
I have heard that some extreme tightwads actually reload those boxer primed steel cases as well....
Yep, me too. Saw pics on some forum (honestly don't remember which) of some dude that tumbled them to a high polish and resized and loaded them. As I recall he said he'd loaded that batch like 3 times so far without issue.
I remember reading somewhere that a guy tested the Rockwell hardness & it wasn't much harder than some brass, but I don't recall specifics.
Herters = Tula
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/MISC/IMG_3127.jpg
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j18/Skintop911/MISC/IMG_3129.jpg
I have heard that some extreme tightwads actually reload those boxer primed steel cases as well....
Can you resize steel cases?
Do you even need to?
That's some serious tightwad-action.
I actually had to try this a few years back.... after reading it.
It totally sucks. You start to appreciate how steel cases DO NOT have the physical properties, AT ALL, that brass does. My brass die setting would barely get the steel to resize right.
I got a few rounds to work, but it was a totally stupid waste of time.
I'm interested in the result from the swaps on accuracy as well!
I put some herters powder and bullets into my regular primed brass as part of the test. ;)
I also measured 5 pieces of herters for runout. 4 had about .005", and 1 had only .001". Again... not great, but not bad. And much better than the Korean Q3131a1 which is a guaranteed .007-.009" runout in EVERY round.
My GUESS is that these bullets just suck.
Got to shoot my test yesterday. All groups were shot out of a 14.5 Chrome lined barrel with a so-so magnified optic... accidentally set to only 6 power. :rolleyes:... All groups shot at 6x so it's apples to apples.
Seems like the bullet it the weak link in the ammo. Herters ammo is the exact opposite of Black Hills in that the only thing Bad in Hert is the bullet. In Black Hills, the only thing those Slappies do right is the Bullet... And look at the reputation of each of those ammos. ;)
Seems bullet selection is everything.
Baseline test with known good match load:
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/trixiebud/AmmoandReloading/aammo3_zps15dd8bb0.jpg
Herters un-modified load:
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/trixiebud/AmmoandReloading/aammo_zpsc8e66c41.jpg
69gr SMK directly sub'd in place of the Hert bullet with NO OTHER VARIABLES:
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/trixiebud/AmmoandReloading/aammo2_zps2dffa656.jpg
And finally.. Herters bullet and powder loaded in a Brass case:
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/trixiebud/AmmoandReloading/aammo4_zps10c50532.jpg
Informative.
By "no other variables", I take it that you DIDN'T dump, mix, and reweigh the powder charge as in your "mexican match" post?
Have any of y'all read the article on comparing crappy ammo and "quality" ammo and barrel life? It compares brown bear, Tula, wold, and federal xm193. Needless to say barrels were ruined in less than 5k through the three lesser brands and exceed 10k+ with federal. Keep in mind they were bushy barrels though....
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/
Very interesting article, great overall read. Now if only they would have used 6920s.
Informative.
By "no other variables", I take it that you DIDN'T dump, mix, and reweigh the powder charge as in your "mexican match" post?
Exactly. Just swapped out bullets.
This current thread is somewhat relevant in regard to Tula, although someone here may be tempted to blame the gun maker.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=129368
**Nevermind, he accidentally put a 5.45 in there. :rolleyes:
The first and only time I used Herters, aka today, my DDM4V5LW suffered from a double feed while I was using an M3 PMAG. I'm chocking this one up to low quality ammo but at least it didn't make my rifle too dirty after 60 rounds. From now on I'll stick to higher quality ammunition.
The first and only time I used Herters, aka today, my DDM4V5LW suffered from a double feed while I was using an M3 PMAG. I'm chocking this one up to low quality ammo but at least it didn't make my rifle too dirty after 60 rounds. From now on I'll stick to higher quality ammunition.
Yeah. The ammo doesn't lock back one of my carbines. Weak stroking caused bolt overs a couple of times. That carbine is ported for full powered ammo though.
Oddly enough the 14.5 middy that I did the test above with runs it like a machine.
Yeah. Herters was all I could find for blasting ammo so I decided to try it out. Once the madness ends I think I'll just go back to better ammo. The stuff might be appropriate for general practice but I'm not going to trust it further than that.
It did lock the bolt back for both magazines if I remember correctly.
I had a Tula fail to eject, the extractor tore off the steel instead of catching it.
Not sure if the round was over-powdered and expanded the steel case or this particular steel case was just brittle.
Got the ammo Mark and will be blasting the herters out of a 10.5.
Littlelebowski
04-25-13, 16:16
I had a Tula fail to eject, the extractor tore off the steel instead of catching it.
Not sure if the round was over-powdered and expanded the steel case or this particular steel case was just brittle.
Got the ammo Mark and will be blasting the herters out of a 10.5.
Might be a stuck case.
I don't quite trust Herters to perform based on my, albeit limited, experience. I'll wait for PMC and PRVI to come back in stock.
I had a Tula fail to eject, the extractor tore off the steel instead of catching it.
That's the nature of steel cases.
FloridaWoodsman
05-04-13, 01:22
I really appreciate that research from markm.
I had just bought three boxes of Tula at Walmart out of desperation, but I guess I won't be doing that again.
The value is good for practice. Just have your rifle zeroed with the stuff you will actually use for SD and there is no harm in cheap training.
I don't quite trust Herters to perform based on my, albeit limited, experience. I'll wait for PMC and PRVI to come back in stock.
I actually didn't like buying Tulammo due to forum reputuations. However, accidently bought 100 rounds of Herter's before I knew better. So far it's done fine in my S&W - which has also shot about 500 rounds of Wolf and Silver Bear without issue.
That being said, my friend has a Bushmaster that won't cycle any Russian stuff either. Your guess is as good as mine, but I suspect a different buffer system.
For range use, practice, i use Tula/Wolf/Herters almost exclusively. Its cheap. Ive shot thousands of rounds of it throughout the years in a variety of firearms and have had 4 malfunctions ever. Ive put them through my Colt and DD ARs, Glocks, M&Ps, 3rd gen S&W steel semi autos, AKs, even a Luger. The problems i had were 2 7.62x39 rounds where the primer was set to deep for the firing pin to reach and 2 9mm rounds needed a second strike in my G19.
I would never trust them for SD but have had good results as range ammo
Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2
And did you look at the graphs that showed you'd be ahead money-wise to go ahead and "ruin" your barrel and then replace it with the savings from steel-cased ammunition?
(HINT: you had to scroll down to the bottom)
http://labscdn.luckygunner.com/labs/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Brass-vs.-Steel-Sunday-e1357509017349.png
Math is fun!
This exact topic has been beaten to death in several threads, focusing on the extreme firing rate of this test among other possible reasons why this isn't that a big deal to most people.
The method they used to create that graph is, in my opinion, flawed.
They completely ignored the value of the spent brass cases. I don't know about you guys, but I have a pretty high recovery % on my brass cases at most (not all) venues.
If you reload, those spent cases obviously have a practical and intrinsic value to you. If you don't reload, you can sell them. Things are inflated right now, but I had no trouble selling once fired 5.56 brass for more than $0.10 each. That's $100 back on every case of brass ammo.
Factor that into the above and see what happens.
<---Brass case for me, mostly, although the less expensive steel case would be a pretty good match for a training course or match where you won't be recovering your brass and the less-accurate cheap .223 stuff is accurate-enough.
As I've said before I do not trust Herters to work in my rifles. If it works well in your plinking or outside of classes training, you're having better luck than I am. I think I'll just start reloading if I can't find a source of cheap factory ammo. Now if only there were reloading supplies available :(
JackFanToM
05-04-13, 23:55
I have shot roughly 5k of Herter's thru my BCM 16" middy. I have had exactly 1 FTE and no other issues. I'm not going to say it's good ammo, as I noticed the accuracy issues rather quickly, but I was buying it for approximately $4 a box of 20, and even now I can usually find it for less than $6 a box. I have actually stopped buying it, not due to anything more than pride though. I was offhand shooting at a clay pigeon at 150 yards vs. a former Army mechanic (he was shooting hand loads...me with my Herter's both with RDS) and he hit the damn things 1st all 3 times. Hate losing to Army, so I'm back to xm193 and money be damned!
The method they used to create that graph is, in my opinion, flawed.
They completely ignored the value of the spent brass cases.
I considered this, but it is very difficult to quantify the dollar value of a spent case. It is highly variable and depends on the person, how many times a single case can be fired, full/neck resizing, as you said the % recovered. Furthermore, a majority of people do not reload. Adding in all the fuzzy numbers would make the chart useless to the majority of people. You'd end up with a widening area instead of a simple line to follow.
With the way the chart is now, you can calculate your own revised numbers based on your brass recycling and plot a new line easily.
I have shot roughly 5k of Herter's thru my BCM 16" middy. I have had exactly 1 FTE and no other issues. I'm not going to say it's good ammo, as I noticed the accuracy issues rather quickly, but I was buying it for approximately $4 a box of 20, and even now I can usually find it for less than $6 a box. I have actually stopped buying it, not due to anything more than pride though. I was offhand shooting at a clay pigeon at 150 yards vs. a former Army mechanic (he was shooting hand loads...me with my Herter's both with RDS) and he hit the damn things 1st all 3 times. Hate losing to Army, so I'm back to xm193 and money be damned!
:haha:
I considered this, but it is very difficult to quantify the dollar value of a spent case. It is highly variable and depends on the person, how many times a single case can be fired, full/neck resizing, as you said the % recovered. Furthermore, a majority of people do not reload. Adding in all the fuzzy numbers would make the chart useless to the majority of people. You'd end up with a widening area instead of a simple line to follow.
With the way the chart is now, you can calculate your own revised numbers based on your brass recycling and plot a new line easily.
The number of times it can be fired, resizing, etc, don't matter if you keep it simple and to the point: Each spent once-fired case has a value. They needed to recognize that fact and incorporate it into the article. To asssume that a person concerned with the $/value of ammunition is going to fire 10,000 rounds of brand new Lake City ammunition without recovering any substantial number of cases is quite silly.
And this wouldn't even have to be directly in the chart, it could be mentioned so that people are reminded to think about it/realize it, and realize that this isn't a "be all end all" of charts that is absolute and requires no critical thought to implement for yourself. (sound familiar?)
Again, comparing the "value" of brass vs steel cased, using ammunition cost and barrel wear/barrel cost, without ever so much as mentioning the value of the spent cases, is a very flawed methodology.
PS: You could easily assign a value to each case and put it into the chart, with nice crisp lines. They already did this, by fixing the cost of the ammunition, and by arbitrarily selecting and fixing the cost of the replacement barrel, and deciding when the barrel would get changed.
Littlelebowski
05-05-13, 08:22
For everyone going on about the used brass, be sure to factor in the cost of a reloading setup. Or.....do your own study and publish it.
HackerF15E
05-05-13, 09:05
I have heard that some extreme tightwads actually reload those boxer primed steel cases as well....
Nothing "extreme tightwad" about it -- some of us don't have ranges with an endless supply of 5.56/.223 brass to reload, so we make do with what we have available.
I've never had any problems resizing, loading, or shooting steel cases, nor is there any clear evidence of damage or increased wear to resizing dies (or rifle parts for that matter) when playing with steel.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v450/Hacker15E/4A1283CC-D624-4AD9-8742-A10414708BA8-10957-00000D1F03CF5428.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v450/Hacker15E/4c835415.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v450/Hacker15E/8e52d607.jpg
I've never had any problems resizing, loading, or shooting steel cases, nor is there any clear evidence of damage or increased wear to resizing dies (or rifle parts for that matter) when playing with steel.
Corrosion in storage?
HackerF15E
05-05-13, 09:37
Corrosion in storage?
For the most part, no.
When I was first experimenting with the tumbling, I would clean-water rinse the cases before drying them. I found that these initial batches did develop a small amount of surface rust over time (some of the cases rusted immediately overnight where they were not completely dried, but most of them showed visible rust spots after about 4 months in storage). I was also hand-drying these cases with a rag and a q-tip inside.
I found that if I did not clean-water rinse, but instead pulled the cases right out of the tumbler and blew them dry with compressed air, I did not run into this corrosion issue.
I have reloads that have been sitting a year so far in GI Ammo cans (with desiccant) and there is no noticeable corrosion. I have a couple of "control group" cases that are sitting in my safe loose for a similar period of time and they, too, have no noticeable corrosion. My "control group" cases that have been sitting outside in a shed (not a sealed/controlled environment) show some discoloration that is evidence of light corrosion or rust.
I tumble with Dawn detergent and LemiShine in the mix. Since the "clean water rinse" cases quickly rusted and the "blow dry only" cases have not, I can only guess that there is something about the soap/water softener residue that inhibits corrosion a little (the compressed air also ensures most of the water is off them, too, which is something I was not doing in my initial batches). I do not have a vibratory tumbler, but if I did, I would tumble the cases with car wax after the stainless pin wet tumble to give them better corrosion protection. So far that hasn't been necessary, but if I were to live in a more humid environment (I am in Oklahoma) it might be.
Overall, my short experience is showing that, so long as the steel rounds are kept in ammo cans (just like all my other ammo is stored) and the cases are prepped using the methods I mentioned above (no clean rinse, compressor dry) there are no rust/corrosion issues worth mentioning. Since I mostly use the steel-case reloads as practice and plinking/blasting ammo, I don't foresee them ever being in long-term "deep" storage", so I am not too concerned with how to ensure corrosion resistance over more than just a year or two.
Nothing "extreme tightwad" about it -- some of us don't have ranges with an endless supply of 5.56/.223 brass to reload, so we make do with what we have available.
I've never had any problems resizing, loading, or shooting steel cases, nor is there any clear evidence of damage or increased wear to resizing dies (or rifle parts for that matter) when playing with steel.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v450/Hacker15E/4A1283CC-D624-4AD9-8742-A10414708BA8-10957-00000D1F03CF5428.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v450/Hacker15E/4c835415.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v450/Hacker15E/8e52d607.jpg
They sure look good here. Like nickel plated cases.
NeoNeanderthal
05-05-13, 12:15
Overall, my short experience is showing that, so long as the steel rounds are kept in ammo cans (just like all my other ammo is stored) and the cases are prepped using the methods I mentioned above (no clean rinse, compressor dry) there are no rust/corrosion issues worth mentioning. Since I mostly use the steel-case reloads as practice and plinking/blasting ammo, I don't foresee them ever being in long-term "deep" storage", so I am not too concerned with how to ensure corrosion resistance over more than just a year or two.
So besides the rinsing, what changes do you do to reload the steel? I've seen people punch out the berdan primers with water and a tight punch, and then they have to modify only a few other steps.
HackerF15E
05-05-13, 12:34
So besides the rinsing, what changes do you do to reload the steel? I've seen people punch out the berdan primers with water and a tight punch, and then they have to modify only a few other steps.
Tula (and some Wolf) .223 cases are boxer primed.
Other than the drying methodology, there is nothing different about reloading steel. Maybe I use a little more lube than with brass (I lube every case when sizing steel and not when I size brass).
For everyone going on about the used brass, be sure to factor in the cost of a reloading setup. Or.....do your own study and publish it.
Or just sell the brass...
It's really quite simple to sell. And you can fit more than 1,600 of them into a medium flat rate USPS box that ships for like $11.
The last 1,600 round lot I put on Gunbroker went for $190, with the buyer paying shipping.
Littlelebowski
05-05-13, 16:50
Or just sell the brass...
It's really quite simple to sell. And you can fit more than 1,600 of them into a medium flat rate USPS box that ships for like $11.
The last 1,600 round lot I put on Gunbroker went for $190, with the buyer paying shipping.
So, does your math make selling used brass to by new brass save more money than buying steel cased?
So, does your math make selling used brass to by new brass save more money than buying steel cased?
Everybody needs to make their own numbers based on:
1) Their actual ammunition costs
2) Their personal rifle's barrel life, which of course is based on several variables in itself
3) What they do with/get for brass cases, and what % of their brass cases they recover
4) And more
But let's look at what they had in the article:
"Although ammunition prices are volatile, the prices of brass and steel remain similar to one another – that is, brass is generally more expensive...For this chart, brass ammunition was calculated at $130 per thousand higher than steel and replacement barrels at $250 apiece."
So they used $130 as the difference. The brass I sold was net me about $112 per 1,000. I figure that, on average, I recover 80% of the cases I get from firing brass ammo. That would be $90 per 1k that I get back from selling the brass, using actual numbers.
That puts the price difference as $40 per 1,000 which means that steel case ammo is not only inferior in performance, but it doesn't even save money once you account for premature barrel wear. Remember that the Federal barrel still had plenty of rounds to go before it would have worn out, and the steel case barrels were "shot out" at around 5,000. That means I would have go buy 1 or 2 replacement barrels while shooting all steel while buying 0 replacement barrels shooting brass case.
Using my numbers, I'd have to get at least 6,500 rounds out of the $250 barrel in order for steel case to be AS INEXPENSIVE as brass case...and then there is the case of the inferior performance of steel case on top of that!
I actually didn't like buying Tulammo due to forum reputuations. However, accidently bought 100 rounds of Herter's before I knew better. So far it's done fine in my S&W - which has also shot about 500 rounds of Wolf and Silver Bear without issue.
That being said, my friend has a Bushmaster that won't cycle any Russian stuff either. Your guess is as good as mine, but I suspect a different buffer system.
What buffer does your rifle have? If it is factory then it is likely the same as your friend's Bushmaster. The difference is most likely the diameter of the gas port. A larger gas port has less trouble running the steel cased ammo since it will allow more gas into the action.
I was shooting with a friend today and he had a case stick in the chamber of his colt 6920. It was a 62 gr Herters. Took a couple of taps with a steel rod and hammer to get it out. Primer was flat, not sure if that would be a sign of over pressure or not. He's gonna scub the chamber and give it another go. He's never had trouble with Wolf...
Primers pop out if pressure is very high. Wolf has consistently proven to have a higher pressure so that is probably why he hasn't had a malfunction. A good tool to have on hand is one of those broken case extractors, not sure of the exact name.
HackerF15E
05-06-13, 06:59
Wolf has consistently proven to have a higher pressure
Do you have some data that you can link to showing that?
This other LuckyGunner test pressure plots don't show that with Tula or Silver Bear....
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/5-56-vs-223/
I was shooting with a friend today and he had a case stick in the chamber of his colt 6920. It was a 62 gr Herters. Took a couple of taps with a steel rod and hammer to get it out. Primer was flat, not sure if that would be a sign of over pressure or not. He's gonna scub the chamber and give it another go. He's never had trouble with Wolf...
Doubt it's over pressure. Steel cases just DO NOT function like a real brass case. They don't expand and contract the same at all within the pressure curve.
If you look at another LG article you will see that Wolf has higher pressure at the gas port on a consistent basis. That's why I said it has higher gas pressure than Tulammo.
HackerF15E
05-06-13, 16:12
If you look at another LG article you will see that Wolf has higher pressure at the gas port on a consistent basis. That's why I said it has higher gas pressure than Tulammo.
In the "other" LG test (the 'brass-vs-steel'), this is all I see:
http://labscdn.luckygunner.com/labs/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Gas-Port-Pressure-Sunday-e1357508948536.png
....and....
http://labscdn.luckygunner.com/labs/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/wolf0k.jpg
Neither of which significantly disagree with the data from the link I posted previously.
So....again, do you have a specific link for what you are talking about? I have never seen anything that says that Wolf (from any of the pool of manufacturers they've marketed) has higher port pressures than comparable other ammo.
It said in the article that Tula had, on average, 11-12% less pressure at the gas port than the other ammo being tested. I believe that is a big factor to why Tula is so problematic since there is less gas going to cycle the action because of that reduced pressure.
HackerF15E
05-06-13, 17:11
It said in the article that Tula had, on average, 11-12% less pressure at the gas port than the other ammo being tested. I believe that is a big factor to why Tula is so problematic since there is less gas going to cycle the action because of that reduced pressure.
So what you really mean is that Wolf has higher pressure than Tula?
Gotcha.
Sorry I thought I made that clear :(
I've never had any problems resizing, loading, or shooting steel cases, nor is there any clear evidence of damage or increased wear to resizing dies (or rifle parts for that matter) when playing with steel.
Granite counter top and recycled steel cases? :p
... slightly less effort than prepping blank cartridges, I'll wager. :jester:
... slightly less effort than prepping blank cartridges, I'll wager. :jester:
A little bit... I have done steel too... just to try it. I like to try anything I can for the experience.
Travelingchild
05-07-13, 13:15
Granite counter top and recycled steel cases? :p
How else could one Afford a Granite counter top?:p
How else could one Afford a Granite counter top?:p
No doubt. I'm still paying for mine. :(
TriumphRat675
05-07-13, 13:21
A little bit... I have done steel too... just to try it. I like to try anything I can for the experience.
In that case let me introduce you to a lady I know. Her name's Lola.
In that case let me introduce you to a lady I know. Her name's Lola.
Tell her to bring her own brass. :p
HackerF15E
05-07-13, 15:27
Granite counter top and recycled steel cases? :p
Yep. Again, it is not a matter of being a cheapskate, it is a matter of the relative availability steel on the range I shoot at (and the lack of brass). If I had more brass, I would gladly stop reloading steel.
The steel works fine for me; it is definitely not worth the cost of paying for once-fired brass (although, with current ammo prices, it could be).
I've read the opinions on both sides of the issue, and based on my experience it works for me. I'm not married to the idea; if I start seeing problems at any step, I'm happy to drop it like a bad habit. Thusfar, I don't see any validity to most of the criticisms with my reloads in my rifle.
I'm not out to convert anyone, but I do like to provide an alternate voice to the "steel will kill your rifle" and the "steel cannot be safely reloaded" crowd.
I hear you, Jackson. I'm just giving you a ration. ;)
Nothing at all wrong with carving your own line out. By all means.
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