View Full Version : So Gold Bugs, is inflation down 26%?
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-15-13, 07:43
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/6055d326-a5ad-11e2-9b77-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2QXDshph9
Gold 26% off its peak. Does that mean that inflation is down 26%? I've never been a fan of 'fiat' money as you call it because it has some major issues, but I've never understood why people think some yellow metal that is found and sometimes lost is the magical answer.
Is there some great conspiracy at play? Central banks selling bullion on the down low to get the high price and not ruffle the market? Shouldn't something like Cypress make gold higher?
I never got why people think that gold would be the currency if everything went to crap. If things got that bad it's only God's mercy and ammo that will save you. :smile:
Submariner
04-15-13, 09:12
6920s are down from their recent peak, too.
Correlation?
Today:
COMEX Gold USD/t oz. 1,397.70 -110.10 -7.17% Jun 13 10:04:21
If things got that bad it's only God's mercy and ammo that will save you.
That - and TOILET PAPER!
john
montanadave
04-15-13, 10:07
While I am not without some financial means, I do not consider myself a particularly "savvy" investor. From my somewhat precarious position in the cheap seats, it seems virtually all the old maxims of capital investment have been thrown out the window. It's just a whole different ballgame given the sheer number of investments available, the number of players, the volume of trades, and the rapidity with which the markets move and react. Add to that the ability of a very small number of big players to leverage huge positions and effect massive market moves by triggering automated trading algorithms across the board and the whole thing has taken on the atmosphere of a crap shoot.
Gold was considered a safe haven when markets became too volatile (the proverbial "flight to safety"), but with the interconnectivity of global markets I don't see anyplace where a person can hide their assets when things start slipping across the board.
My own admittedly cynical opinion is that there are a very few select wolves at the top of the heap that reap the financial rewards by positioning themselves to profit from the volatility and the rest of us are simply sheep to be sheared as we scurry about, shifting our meager crumbs from one basket to another.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/6055d326-a5ad-11e2-9b77-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2QXDshph9
Gold 26% off its peak. Does that mean that inflation is down 26%? I've never been a fan of 'fiat' money as you call it because it has some major issues, but I've never understood why people think some yellow metal that is found and sometimes lost is the magical answer.
Is there some great conspiracy at play? Central banks selling bullion on the down low to get the high price and not ruffle the market? Shouldn't something like Cypress make gold higher?
I never got why people think that gold would be the currency if everything went to crap. If things got that bad it's only God's mercy and ammo that will save you. :smile:
Your arguements are naive to the the point of gross ignorance.
It's well known fact that the metals markets are manipulated. Mostly due to the fact that most of the trading done is in paper only, not physical. In fact the drop last week was in part to a large play made by a single unknown seller of 500 tonnes of silver paper. Today a $20 BILLION paper sell order is tanking the market further. It's well known that central banks are aquiring physical silver, so a play in paper to kill the price make good sense and allows central banks to win at buying cheap and win on thier short positions. win on sell, win on buy.
To further bolster the manipulation argument, on the 10th the largest US silver mine had a massive landslide effectively shutting down production of 16% of US silver production. by all common sense measures the price should have spiked... but it didnt... it dropped.. A LOT. and continues to plummet ANOTHER $2 today!
Does that make sense to you?
as to usefulness ask yourself this question... "if all my needs were otherwise met, what would I take in trade for something I wanted to sell? What could I trade off easily to get my value back?"
I submit the following four items would be high on your list:
1-gold
2-silver
3- common caliber ammunition
4- assault rifles
so, to answer your question... Gold has value because everyone else percieves it has value and that perception is worldwide. THAT is the reason the US dollar has value and the reason trade moves in an efficient fashion... PERCEPTION of value.
Look, the dollar is being DELIBERATELY destroyed. we can see that clearly now. in fact it's stated policy of this administration. If you want to keep your saving and hold any wealth you may have, you need to cash out your 401k plan and get into physical assets NOW. when the crash is over there will only be those who have assets and those who do not. paper is worthless and they have stated their plans to raid private accounts and retirements.
Get into physical assets NOW.
Folks that try to time the market average around a 7% return, if I recall correctly. That's a poor return.
Gold will do absolutely nothing for you if the economy collapses. It only means something when you can attach something of value to it. For example, today I could "theoretically" buy some water or a truck with gold, but only because the seller can take that gold and buy what they want with it. Our money is only paper, and at least right now, it still has value. But the government is doing its best to fix that.
In Katrina, or Sandy, or the Japanese earthquake/tsunami, gold would have gotten you a kick in the balls and a pimp slap for your mama.
But if you had some water, or food, or maybe a gun or ammo, you, sir, were King of the Hill.
While fantasy, Walking Dead makes a good point. They ain't out there loking for, or buying stuff, with gold.
Outside of a pure investment (buying low and selling high), gold speculators need to wake up and smell the roses. It is no hedge against a failed economy. :stop:
Here is one of the best write-ups I have personally seen of what we are experiencing right now:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-04-14/mike-maloney-todays-low-gold-silver-prices-are-not-realistic
-From the article-
What most people do not understand is that the price of gold and silver are not determined by how much gold and silver is being sold. It is how many gold and silver IOUs are being sold. And you can write as many IOUs, futures contracts and options, as you want. Those are unlimited. The supply, though, of physical gold and silver is quite limited, and so when people actually start asking for it and they want the physical, then there is a divergence of the paper price versus the physical price, and we are seeing that right now.
We are in a back-order situation with all of the suppliers. Spreads are going up. Silver eagles cost about fifty cents over spot more than they normally cost because all of the suppliers have had to raise their price to try and find the supply/demand equilibrium that the markets are for. The markets are there to try and find a supply/demand equilibrium, so then price is the arbitrator. Price rises; that draws more supply and reduces demand. Price falls; that reduces supply and increases demand.
So the price discovery mechanism of the markets is what is supposed to ensure that things are in equilibrium. We have this broken system where there are a few big players that manipulate the market, and it always shows up when shortages start developing in the physical market. You know that the price of gold and silver right now are too low to be realistic. And the good thing about that is that it cannot last.
.
As another member stated prior in this thread- it is ALL MANIPULATION!
This is realistically the signal that China/Russia and the rest of the world powers are aggressively building gold reserves to dump the US dollar and create their own gold backed currencies to trade with...
This is what the USA did long ago; it really grew our economy and we had a good equilibirum for a LONG while, until the inevitable tinkering Governments start doing and screw everything up for everyone but the very few who are profiting off of the tinkering.
We are about to see the death of the US dollar pegged to the petro dollar and reserve world currency...
Hold on for the ride and good luck.
But if you had some water, or food, or maybe a gun or ammo, you, sir, were King of the Hill.
While fantasy, Walking Dead makes a good point. They ain't out there loking for, or buying stuff, with gold.
Outside of a pure investment (buying low and selling high), gold speculators need to wake up and smell the roses. It is no hedge against a failed economy. :stop:
Gold makes a lousy day to day currency. just miserable. where it excels is exactly where world banks use it... as a reserve of wealth.
A good way for the individual to use gold would be to put a portion of ones savings or assets into it as long term savings.
example: you have $1 mil in net assets. you might keep $100K for high risk investments, $400K in precious metals, $300K in land or other assets and $200K in liquid savings or cash of various currencies.
I have to take exception to your Walking Dead analogy here. your assumption and the assumption that program makes is that society has broken down and NO TRADE exists at all. This has NEVER happened and is frankly impossible for longer than the very short term in anything but the most catastrophic of circumstances.
We accept that death and taxes are inevitable as teh sunrise then we must by extension accept that there is commerce to tax. Follows further that with commerce comes currency, which in all historical situations has meant some form of gold or silver or gold backed paper.
A step further to bolster this truth is the fact our own constitution mandated it, which may give some credence to the assertions that gold has value.
Further still, Gold, silver and even coppers value in industry means it has INTRINSIC value.
So, before you take your valuable bullets and assault rifle and go to rob someone of something, consider what you might take beyond food... perhaps some private gold or silver to trade with other folks fro more ammo.
This is a mind exercise. you need to get awya from total collapse walking dead scenarios as being "highly likely" or "the reason for prepping". they are very unlikely and making choices based on assumptions about the value of gold or silver in those puts you in a very very weak position. In every other case gold and silver makes at least a net zero investment over time.
Folks that try to time the market average around a 7% return, if I recall correctly. That's a poor return.
Gold will do absolutely nothing for you if the economy collapses. It only means something when you can attach something of value to it. For example, today I could "theoretically" buy some water or a truck with gold, but only because the seller can take that gold and buy what they want with it. Our money is only paper, and at least right now, it still has value. But the government is doing its best to fix that.
In Katrina, or Sandy, or the Japanese earthquake/tsunami, gold would have gotten you a kick in the balls and a pimp slap for your mama.
But if you had some water, or food, or maybe a gun or ammo, you, sir, were King of the Hill.
While fantasy, Walking Dead makes a good point. They ain't out there loking for, or buying stuff, with gold.
Outside of a pure investment (buying low and selling high), gold speculators need to wake up and smell the roses. It is no hedge against a failed economy. :stop:
You make some good points- consider this however:
Most people don't know or forget that Silver is used in water purification extensively; it is being used more and more in water purification applications as we learn more about how effective it is at increasing the life of filter substrates and aiding in the purification process.
Some posit that Silver is a "Stand alone" water purifier. Although much debate surrounds these claims.
The anti-bacterial properties of silver- and ability to drastically increase water filtration effeciency and filter substrate lifecycles- will make it an absolute necessity in any TEOTWAWKI/monetary collapse situation.
There most definitely WILL be a place in any society for Silver, and gold. Especially given enough time for things to balance.
There have been economic collapses for millenia. Gold always comes out on top as the basis for currency/trading. It is a cycle that has been going on forever!
So, yeah your gold might not be worth too much during the short term when all you need is food and water/guns & ammo to survive. But shortly thereafter when the world begins to come out of the darkness- GOLD will be necessary and the dominant form of currecny/trade.
Those who have the gold will be in a great position- as long as they also planned ahead and stored enough food/water/guns/ammo to survive and rebuild society.
Just like any physical commodity- gold has its ups and downs. But there is a reason gold has been around and retained its value better than any other single commodity for our entire history on this planet...
Essentially it is human nature and we like shiny shit.
Don't forget, human beings have used gold for milennia as a means of trade when it was basically worthless to them (They didn't have electronics that required gold for its conductive abilities either...), outside of being shiny and they wanted it.
Gold has been used in dentistry and medicine since at least 700 BC.
Most of the ways that gold is used today have been developed only during the last two or three decades. This trend will likely continue. As our society requires more sophisticated and reliable materials our uses for gold will increase. This combination of growing demand, few substitutes and limited supply will cause the value and importance of gold to increase steadily over time. It is truly a metal of the future.
Gold has some interesting superconductive & "high spin" properties that could potentially open up some interseting scientific finds in the future.
As a add-on to THCCDDM4's post..this is exactly what BRICS is all about..Keep in mind the French signed a trade agreement with the Chinese, to trade in yuan..Britian did so last year, Australia is also considering signing on as well..I hate to say it, but, get ready to join the third world... This a currency war we are going to lose..The collaspe of the U.S. dollar is going to be stunning, and painful....And I expect those who are collecting "entitlements" are going to be the first ones rioting,just as soon as they figure out the check's NOT going to be in the mail....
Straight Shooter
04-15-13, 11:29
Gentlemen-
THANK YALL for the great info you all are posting in this thread. I would like to ask that those of you educated & knowledgeable in this subject to please continue posting, and any links you can add so that that I & others can further our education would be greatly appreciated.
I think even a "semi-educated layman" such as myself....I drove OTR for 13 years:D....can tell that the basic economic principles our country were founded on, and ran on for well over 200 years, are eroded to the point of near collapse. Every single principle of economics 101 seem to have been tossed out the window. And The American people asked for it....TWICE.
Shame shame shame on us.
Jack-O, I thought about what you posted, about trading gold/silver for ammo. RESPECTFULY, I just do not EVER see a situation at all where I would do that. Again, just as an example, in a Walking Dead scenario, those things aren't only LAST on my list, they aint even ON the list of stuff Id trade for. IMO, precious metals woul be utterly, completely useless, but again, Im just a "semi-educated layman".
Jack-O, I thought about what you posted, about trading gold/silver for ammo. RESPECTFULY, I just do not EVER see a situation at all where I would do that. Again, just as an example, in a Walking Dead scenario, those things aren't only LAST on my list, they aint even ON the list of stuff Id trade for. IMO, precious metals woul be utterly, completely useless, but again, Im just a "semi-educated layman".
now I'm curious... :) what would you accept in trade and what would you offer in trade in lieu of currency/cash?
Jack-O, I thought about what you posted, about trading gold/silver for ammo. RESPECTFULY, I just do not EVER see a situation at all where I would do that. Again, just as an example, in a Walking Dead scenario, those things aren't only LAST on my list, they aint even ON the list of stuff Id trade for. IMO, precious metals woul be utterly, completely useless, but again, Im just a "semi-educated layman".
Thousands of years of human history show this to be kind of misguided. People have been after gold for literally millennia. They took whole expeditions into the jungles of S America, with 16th and 17th Century technology only, and no industrial need for gold, just to get it. And some of those expeditions never came back. To them, it was similar to an TEOTWAWKI situation but they kept going.
While you may not value gold itself in a Walking Dead/SHTF scenario, other people likely will... Having some is not a bad backup plan.
---
Jack-O, THCDDM4, kry226, ralph:
Thank you for all the info you've provided. I'll admit I'm not up to par on my financial/investments understanding, so it's good to hear it in "layman's terms".
All of you guys mentioned to an extent the collapse of the dollar, trade treaties being signed, countries hoarding gold to facilitate a "world currency" shift, ect. I agree that we are on that path, and with my limited knowlege, have known this for a while now...just not so much to what extent like you guys seem to...
Look, the dollar is being DELIBERATELY destroyed. we can see that clearly now. in fact it's stated policy of this administration. If you want to keep your saving and hold any wealth you may have, you need to cash out your 401k plan and get into physical assets NOW. when the crash is over there will only be those who have assets and those who do not. paper is worthless and they have stated their plans to raid private accounts and retirements.
Get into physical assets NOW.
This statement above seems to have a sense of urgency attached to it. My question for you guys is this: How long would a total shift in world currency/collapse of the US dollar take at this point?
Crow Hunter
04-15-13, 11:55
Gold is NOT a good investment to generate wealth.
You can sometimes, but it hasn't been terribly useful over the long term. If you look at what it was doing back in the 1980's it was miserable.
Gold, if you have it in your portfolio is there to help mitigate risk, just like bonds. It often works in reverse to other asset classes.
Gold doesn't "do" anything, it doesn't create anything, it doesn't make the next Iphone or the first Plasma Rifle in the 40W range. People and companies that are creating something generate new wealth.
You need to set a Asset Allocation and stick to it. When one of your asset classes becomes overweighted by whatever tolerance band you have chosen to work with, you sell some of it and buy one of the underweighted asset classes.
The big reason it has been dropping off it's high is because people are selling it, to buy other asset classes. Right now it is stocks, the market for stocks looks "bullish" so people are going to the "next big thing". Unfortunately, most people don't stick to an Asset Allocation, the just "buy the bubble".
Lots of people have been buying the hype that they could make money speculating in commodities. You can, but only if you bought the commodities when they were undervalued.
Personally, I don't buy gold for investments. Although, when the price comes back down, I am going to buy some coins just because I want to.:D
If someone is REALLY worried about inflation, he should take out as much debt at fixed rates as possible. That is how my uncle made lots of money back in the 1970s. He was highly leveraged, but he was paying 1970 prices with 1979 dollars. He was completely debt free before the decade was out and sitting on a ton of cash after selling out all but his lake property/house. Retired and did nothing but golf and fish for 30 years.
NEVER put all your eggs in one basket, no matter if it is commodities/stocks/bonds/real estate/business.
Gentlemen-
THANK YALL for the great info you all are posting in this thread. I would like to ask that those of you educated & knowledgeable in this subject to please continue posting, and any links you can add so that that I & others can further our education would be greatly appreciated.
I think even a "semi-educated layman" such as myself....I drove OTR for 13 years:D....can tell that the basic economic principles our country were founded on, and ran on for well over 200 years, are eroded to the point of near collapse. Every single principle of economics 101 seem to have been tossed out the window. And The American people asked for it....TWICE.
Shame shame shame on us.
Jack-O, I thought about what you posted, about trading gold/silver for ammo. RESPECTFULY, I just do not EVER see a situation at all where I would do that. Again, just as an example, in a Walking Dead scenario, those things aren't only LAST on my list, they aint even ON the list of stuff Id trade for. IMO, precious metals woul be utterly, completely useless, but again, Im just a "semi-educated layman".
In reposne to the highlighted text above:
I can understand how people would come to this conclusion, but- it just isn't reality.
During a catastrophic collapse (Even a short term collapse like a food chain disruption or energy oil/gas shortage) water purification & proper hydration is THE most important issue. Period.
Can you imagine if people had to purify there own drinking water for any amount of time greater than a few weeks?
Do you realize how much help silver lends in purifiying water and keeping filter substartes clean of algea, mold, legionnaires desease, 750 types of bacteria (Known and tested), etc?
Silver enables these systems to be smaller, lighter, more efficient purifyers and MUCH easier to clean and re-use.
The availability of Silver could very well be the difference between having ample supplies of purified water & easily maintained purification systems versus having less than the needed amount of purified water & purification systems to survive. A BIG deal.
Also consider the long term for a moment. Obviously in the short term gold and silver will have LESS value, but when one thinks long term, rebuilding society and all that jazz- there is ABSOLUTELY a need for gold and silver.
We always default to gold/silver as a commodity for trade when we rebuild after collapse; the cycle has been going on for millenia- and isn;t going to change anytime soon.
Those who plan short term for the future will SURVIVE in the short term. The long term will/could be questionable.
Those who plan long term for the future will survive in the short term and THRIVE in the long term.
I'll make an ammo comparison.
Consider it the difference between having 1 thousand rounds of ammo the day the shit hits the fan versus having said 1 thousand rounds and enough components to manufacture 1 million MORE rounds of ammo in the future on that very same day...
Folks that try to time the market average around a 7% return, if I recall correctly. That's a poor return.
Gold will do absolutely nothing for you if the economy collapses. It only means something when you can attach something of value to it. For example, today I could "theoretically" buy some water or a truck with gold, but only because the seller can take that gold and buy what they want with it. Our money is only paper, and at least right now, it still has value. But the government is doing its best to fix that.
In Katrina, or Sandy, or the Japanese earthquake/tsunami, gold would have gotten you a kick in the balls and a pimp slap for your mama.
But if you had some water, or food, or maybe a gun or ammo, you, sir, were King of the Hill.
While fantasy, Walking Dead makes a good point. They ain't out there loking for, or buying stuff, with gold.
Outside of a pure investment (buying low and selling high), gold speculators need to wake up and smell the roses. It is no hedge against a failed economy. :stop:
You sir, need to read your history on currency crisis/devaluation, coin clipping, money printing, etc. gold and silver are a store of your wealth for when the new currency is created. We've had 3 or 4 in the last 200 years. Anything physical that takes labor to produce is a store of value but one can only store so much food before they head into crazy town. This is where other assets come in, land, gold, silver.
Yes there are good points being made here, but again, I am not relying on a total collapse scenario. I mostly speak about the more realistic ones like the natural disasters I mentioned above. Again, in those short term events, gold was meaningless.
Sure it has some intrinsic value, and maybe for getting an economy restarted, but I don't see us remaining on a gold standard, for the same reasons we got off. Gold is seen as a limiting factor to economic growth. Too few have/will have it. Gold is not a savior.
We've already admitted it's a poor currency.
montanadave
04-15-13, 12:08
If gold drops below $1300, I'm thinking I might take a little nibble.
You sir, need to read your history on currency crisis/devaluation, coin clipping, money printing, etc. gold and silver are a store of your wealth for when the new currency is created. We've had 3 or 4 in the last 200 years. Anything physical that takes labor to produce is a store of value but one can only store so much food before they head into crazy town. This is where other assets come in, land, gold, silver.
I certainly don't want or have time to argue. These arguments have also been going on for years, and years. Otherwise we wouldn't even have a discussion worth having now. I have other assets beyond cash, but I don't plan on buying any gold as a part of my financial plan.
To each their own. I won't try to convince anyone. :)
platoonDaddy
04-15-13, 12:15
The gold and silver market is being manipulated. They are driving it down intentionally.
The physical market is disappearing for silver and some parts gold. I saw in Thailand you cannot buy physical gold; cannot be found.
Major central banks are buying gold. Does not make sense. If physical supply is going down and demand is up, price should be up.
They are fraudulently driving it down through the paper futures markets; derivatives. Believe they will drive it down to the 1300 range, for sure then a buying opportunity.
Yes there are good points being made here, but again, I am not relying on a total collapse scenario. I mostly speak about the more realistic ones like the natural disasters I mentioned above. Again, in those short term events, gold was meaningless.
Sure it has some intrinsic value, and maybe for getting an economy restarted, but I don't see us remaining on a gold standard, for the same reasons we got off. Gold is seen as a limiting factor to economic growth. Too few have/will have it. Gold is not a savior.
We've already been duped into thinking it's a poor currency.
Fixed it for ya...
The "economic limiting" concern is a myth, however. The gold standard–while certainly not conducive to a policy of artificial credit expansion–by no means “limits” the growth of the American economy. Indeed, a gold standard will likely facilitate greater economic stability and, in turn, more rapid growth over time.
The belief that a gold standard will limit the size of the economy is established on the faulty premise that the money supply must grow in order for economic growth to occur–that money sustains economic activity. This is shown to be false by the mere fact that doubling or tripling the money supply in third-world countries will (obviously) not create better economic conditions (see Zimbabwe). Increasing the money stock may create the illusion of prosperity, but it cannot possibly do anything to raise actual standards of living for an extended period of time.
You can't create huge bubbles based on debt and manipulation of fiat currency when you have to back it with gold. That's why the few at the top that are profiting off of our fiat based bubble creaitng system don't want to go back to the gold standard- and vehemently teach misinformation to the new generations of economic scientists to keep the charade going and the profits pouring in...
Ditching the gold standard was the initial catalyst to the economic turblence we are feeling right now.
Submariner
04-15-13, 12:18
Gold is seen as a limiting factor to government spending.
Fixed it for ya'. :smile:
Betting against gold is the same as betting on governments. He who bets on governments and government money bets against 6,000 years of recorded human history.
http://www.investmentrarities.com/famous_gold_quotes.shtml
The gold and silver market is being manipulated. They are driving it down intentionally.
The physical market is disappearing for silver and some parts gold. I saw in Thailand you cannot buy physical gold; cannot be found.
Major central banks are buying gold. Does not make sense. If physical supply is going down and demand is up, price should be up.
They are fraudulently driving it down through the paper futures markets; derivatives. Believe they will drive it down to the 1300 range, for sure then a buying opportunity.
Precisely!
If gold drops below $1300, I'm thinking I might take a little nibble.
You should. Buy some silver too.
Gold is going well beyond $2,000/ounce in the near future- from a historical vantage point.
And once the dollar colapses; you can store that value and put it into whatever replaces it as the reserve currency once the cards are on the table...
Jack-O, THCDDM4, kry226, ralph:
Thank you for all the info you've provided. I'll admit I'm not up to par on my financial/investments understanding, so it's good to hear it in "layman's terms".
All of you guys mentioned to an extent the collapse of the dollar, trade treaties being signed, countries hoarding gold to facilitate a "world currency" shift, ect. I agree that we are on that path, and with my limited knowlege, have known this for a while now...just not so much to what extent like you guys seem to...
This statement above seems to have a sense of urgency attached to it. My question for you guys is this: How long would a total shift in world currency/collapse of the US dollar take at this point?
That's the trillion dollar question right now.
With how things are going, and planned to go- I would give it a year or two before the US dollar is no longer the preferredworld reserve currency/petro dollar. Countries are already starting to trade in other currencies. Our collapse has been long in the making.
I've been feeling like a huge event is coming, though; one that will cut the time table significantly- I just can't get my head around it fully at this time...
Crow Hunter
04-15-13, 12:27
Fixed it for ya...
The "economic limiting" concern is a myth, however. The gold standard–while certainly not conducive to a policy of artificial credit expansion–by no means “limits” the growth of the American economy. Indeed, a gold standard will likely facilitate greater economic stability and, in turn, more rapid growth over time.
The belief that a gold standard will limit the size of the economy is established on the faulty premise that the money supply must grow in order for economic growth to occur–that money sustains economic activity. This is shown to be false by the mere fact that doubling or tripling the money supply in third-world countries will (obviously) not create better economic conditions (see Zimbabwe). Increasing the money stock may create the illusion of prosperity, but it cannot possibly do anything to raise actual standards of living for an extended period of time.
You can't create huge bubbles based on debt and manipulation of fiat currency when you have to back it with gold. That's why the few at the top that are profiting off of our fiat based bubble creaitng system don't want to go back to the gold standard- and vehemently teach misinformation to the new generations of economic scientists to keep the charade going and the profits pouring in...
Ditching the gold standard was the initial catalyst to the economic turblence we are feeling right now.
Actually gold standard causes deflation, which is just as bad if not worse than inflation when it comes to economic activity.
If your money supply doesn't keep up with the growth of your economy/population, people who have money wait to spend it, because the value is rising, and those that need it, can't get it because the people who have it won't spend it. The only way to get more of it is to mine it or devalue it. Mining is not guaranteed to keep up with monetary needs, devaluing is the same thing you have with a fiat currency. ;)
Gold standard (and deflation) is GREAT for people who have money. It sucks for anyone that doesn't.
Part of the reason the Fed has been doing QE X+1 is overcompensating for the feared deflation because the whole world starts flocking to the American dollar during economic crises.
Crow Hunter
04-15-13, 12:30
You should. Buy some silver too.
Gold is going well beyond $2,000/ounce in the near future- from a historical vantage point.
And once the dollar colapses; you can store that value and put it into whatever replaces it as the reserve currency once the cards are on the table...
You are making the assumption that the government won't seize and make illegal the ownership of gold/silver bullion before the collapse happens.
I don't think that is a valid assumption. It HAS been done before.
Submariner
04-15-13, 12:35
Actually gold standard causes deflation, which is just as bad if not worse than inflation when it comes to economic activity.
It is commonly thought that rising prices cause inflation. This is like saying wet streets cause rain.
Inflation is the increase in supply of money and credit. Deflation is the decrease in the supply of money and credit.
A gold standard generally leads to lower prices as people become productive faster than money is created. Money, not credit, is produced as folks dig it out of the ground to spend on goods and services.
You are making the assumption that the government won't seize and make illegal the ownership of gold/silver bullion before the collapse happens.
I don't think that is a valid assumption. It HAS been done before.
Don't they have to take the guns first?
Why take gold when 401(k) and IRA wealth is already in the system and ripe for plucking?
platoonDaddy
04-15-13, 12:47
Guy does good job on explaining the manipulation of the market.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=xL7Bkj5gGhM#!
Crow Hunter
04-15-13, 12:59
It is commonly thought that rising prices cause inflation. This is like saying wet streets cause rain.
Inflation is the increase in supply of money and credit. Deflation is the decrease in the supply of money and credit.
A gold standard generally leads to lower prices as people become productive faster than money is created. Money, not credit, is produced as folks dig it out of the ground to spend on goods and services.
The problem with that scenario is that there is no guarantee of the rate at which it will be dug out of the ground, if the supply of gold doesn't keep up with the demand for it, it's value will increase. Which is great for those that have it, it sucks if you need it to start a business. If I have gold and it is increasing in value 10% a year and I don't need to buy a new car/house/etc right now, I am going to wait as long as I possibly can because I know that my gold will buy more the longer I weight. If everyone does this, the whole thing will ground to a halt. Credit/capital/etc becomes increasingly hard to get because people aren't spending and it isn't coming out of the ground fast enough to keep up with growth so it strangles it. Unless it is devalued, which is exactly what happens with fiat currency.;)
Don't they have to take the guns first?
You betcha. :D
Why take gold when 401(k) and IRA wealth is already in the system and ripe for plucking?
They will hit them too, probably first. There isn't a historical precedent for 401(k) IRA wealth seizure though, there is for specie seizure. That has happened before in the US.
I am not saying what the government is doing now is right either. I personally think a little devaluation shock might do us some good. Of course I am also sitting on quite a bit of cash with very little debt, so that would help me.:D But just arbitrarily swapping to any commodity standard (Gold/silver/copper/cowrie shells/stone wheels/tulip bulbs) can be just as bad or even worse/harder to keep stable than a fiat currency.
Straight Shooter
04-15-13, 13:02
Let me answer a couple questions.
What would I trade or use in hard times instead of gold?
Ammo, weapons, shelter, skills, work, med supplies, gear, transportation, ect ect. I would STEADFASTLY turn down all offers of currency and metals.
As for silver being used for water purification and the like, that is 100% correct..HOWEVER...do you know how and have the ability to turn ingots or coins into the processed silver to make the filters needed to do this? You don't just drop a couple of Mercury Dimes into a gallon of water!!:smile: So again, the metals are just useless weight.
As for metals being sought out centuries before there was any real industrial or medical use for them, again, 100% correct....HOWEVER, a lot of that was used in religious idols, and a LOT of that was sought out by Kings, and whatever any society calle its leaders at the time, ...just a VERY select few.
Im speaking about ME now...my needs and thoughts, btw. I just have no need, nor see ANY need to have items that cannot be used to sustain life in some way and that can be, AND WILL BE DE-VALUED at the whims of man, or by economic situations.
So, again respectfuly, those that asked me, let me ask YOU....in ANY
SHTF, TEOTWAWKI event, local, regional, national, or worldwide,
do you see ANY of the items I mentioned earlier as being LESS valuable or MORE valuable than metals?
Yes there are good points being made here, but again, I am not relying on a total collapse scenario. I mostly speak about the more realistic ones like the natural disasters I mentioned above. Again, in those short term events, gold was meaningless.
Sure it has some intrinsic value, and maybe for getting an economy restarted, but I don't see us remaining on a gold standard, for the same reasons we got off. Gold is seen as a limiting factor to economic growth. Too few have/will have it. Gold is not a savior.
We've already admitted it's a poor currency.
Buying gold and silver for natural disasters? Wrong prep for wrong "disaster."
Poor currency? Agreed. Reason for gold backed currency.
Hindrance to economic growth? Because the mania booms and busts cycles work so well :rolleyes:
Straight Shooter
04-15-13, 13:12
Also...another question Im REALLY interested in hearing yalls opinions on...WHAT IF an audit was done on Ft. Knox gold reserve, and it was found to be COMPLETLY EMPTY...NO GOLD.
What would happen next to our economy? Anything? Nothing?
Cant wait to hear yalls answers, cause I sure as hell don't know.
brickboy240
04-15-13, 13:15
I bought gold back when it was 720 bucks an ounce. Still have the coins in my safe.
Going to hold on to them...but I doubt I will buy more anytime soon.
-brickboy240
Fixed it for ya...
The "economic limiting" concern is a myth, however. The gold standard–while certainly not conducive to a policy of artificial credit expansion–by no means “limits” the growth of the American economy. Indeed, a gold standard will likely facilitate greater economic stability and, in turn, more rapid growth over time.
The belief that a gold standard will limit the size of the economy is established on the faulty premise that the money supply must grow in order for economic growth to occur–that money sustains economic activity. This is shown to be false by the mere fact that doubling or tripling the money supply in third-world countries will (obviously) not create better economic conditions (see Zimbabwe). Increasing the money stock may create the illusion of prosperity, but it cannot possibly do anything to raise actual standards of living for an extended period of time.
You can't create huge bubbles based on debt and manipulation of fiat currency when you have to back it with gold. That's why the few at the top that are profiting off of our fiat based bubble creaitng system don't want to go back to the gold standard- and vehemently teach misinformation to the new generations of economic scientists to keep the charade going and the profits pouring in...
Ditching the gold standard was the initial catalyst to the economic turblence we are feeling right now.
Or maybe, if we all just lived within our means (government included), we'd be better off. Our troubles are not tied to not being on a gold standard, but are tied all of these manipulations and average Joe culturally thinking he deserves, or is entitled to, a $60 car and a $800k house regardless of his income, and this includes the government. Sooner or later the debt load becomes too much and the bubble bursts.
For example, the gun market. When it goes crazy like it is now, dealers many times go under because they are in debt and cannot get enough product to sell in order to pay their bills. I think IIRC, that Paul from BCM or Grant posted something to this effect. However, I saw Rainier post about their financial situation recently, discussing the fact that they had NO DEBT, and were doing just fine during the gun market debacle.
It's not a gold standard problem, but we have a cultural (and) debt problem. YMMV.
Straight Shooter
04-15-13, 13:24
AMEN kry226 on the cultural & debt problem.
As of last Thursday....11April13...THIS ole boy is 100% DEBT FREE.
Ive worked like a fiend for over a year and a half now of massive, massive amounts of OT, cutting back, doing without, ect to accomplish this, because I do truly, truly believe something WICKED this way comes. NOBODY is going to hold a damn thing over my head at that time. Get out of as much debt as you can...NOW.
Im now working on getting about 6 months worth of expenses saved, and not in the damn bank, either.
Also still doing weekly preps, and studying and learning everything I can get my hands on.
Buying gold and silver for natural disasters? Wrong prep for wrong "disaster."
That's not what I said, sir. Out of context. See previous post.
Poor currency? Agreed. Reason for gold backed currency.
Hindrance to economic growth? Because the mania booms and busts cycles work so well :rolleyes:
And the other extreme does?
AMEN kry226 on the cultural & debt problem.
As of last Thursday....11April13...THIS ole boy is 100% DEBT FREE.
Ive worked like a fiend for over a year and a half now of massive, massive amounts of OT, cutting back, doing without, ect to accomplish this, because I do truly, truly believe something WICKED this way comes. NOBODY is going to hold a damn thing over my head at that time. Get out of as much debt as you can...NOW.
Im now working on getting about 6 months worth of expenses saved, and not in the damn bank, either.
Also still doing weekly preps, and studying and learning everything I can get my hands on.
Congrats, brother. :cool:
Crow Hunter
04-15-13, 13:38
Let me answer a couple questions.
What would I trade or use in hard times instead of gold?
Ammo, weapons, shelter, skills, work, med supplies, gear, transportation, ect ect. I would STEADFASTLY turn down all offers of currency and metals.
As for silver being used for water purification and the like, that is 100% correct..HOWEVER...do you know how and have the ability to turn ingots or coins into the processed silver to make the filters needed to do this? You don't just drop a couple of Mercury Dimes into a gallon of water!!:smile: So again, the metals are just useless weight.
As for metals being sought out centuries before there was any real industrial or medical use for them, again, 100% correct....HOWEVER, a lot of that was used in religious idols, and a LOT of that was sought out by Kings, and whatever any society calle its leaders at the time, ...just a VERY select few.
Im speaking about ME now...my needs and thoughts, btw. I just have no need, nor see ANY need to have items that cannot be used to sustain life in some way and that can be, AND WILL BE DE-VALUED at the whims of man, or by economic situations.
So, again respectfuly, those that asked me, let me ask YOU....in ANY
SHTF, TEOTWAWKI event, local, regional, national, or worldwide,
do you see ANY of the items I mentioned earlier as being LESS valuable or MORE valuable than metals?
A good shovel to dig a well or a bucket to tote water from the creek and boil it over a fire or black plastic to make a solar still is going to be worth more to me than silver.
:D
A good shovel to dig a well or a bucket to tote water from the creek and boil it over a fire or black plastic to make a solar still is going to be worth more to me than silver.
:D
You plan to live in the woods (:p), personally I'm saving that as the last resort and bought 4oz of silver bullion and two more MS63 common Morgans just today. Doesn't mean don't have magnesium fire starters and other necessities on hand, just means that now is a good time to buy while prices have dropped and the international shit has yet to hit the fan.
In all fairness, as posted above, silver does have some great antibacterial properties. Heck, they're putting it in hunting clothing now as scent control.
RancidSumo
04-15-13, 14:10
Gold is NOT a good investment to generate wealth.
You can sometimes, but it hasn't been terribly useful over the long term. If you look at what it was doing back in the 1980's it was miserable.
Gold, if you have it in your portfolio is there to help mitigate risk, just like bonds. It often works in reverse to other asset classes.
Gold doesn't "do" anything, it doesn't create anything, it doesn't make the next Iphone or the first Plasma Rifle in the 40W range. People and companies that are creating something generate new wealth.
You need to set a Asset Allocation and stick to it. When one of your asset classes becomes overweighted by whatever tolerance band you have chosen to work with, you sell some of it and buy one of the underweighted asset classes.
The big reason it has been dropping off it's high is because people are selling it, to buy other asset classes. Right now it is stocks, the market for stocks looks "bullish" so people are going to the "next big thing". Unfortunately, most people don't stick to an Asset Allocation, the just "buy the bubble".
Lots of people have been buying the hype that they could make money speculating in commodities. You can, but only if you bought the commodities when they were undervalued.
Personally, I don't buy gold for investments. Although, when the price comes back down, I am going to buy some coins just because I want to.:D
If someone is REALLY worried about inflation, he should take out as much debt at fixed rates as possible. That is how my uncle made lots of money back in the 1970s. He was highly leveraged, but he was paying 1970 prices with 1979 dollars. He was completely debt free before the decade was out and sitting on a ton of cash after selling out all but his lake property/house. Retired and did nothing but golf and fish for 30 years.
NEVER put all your eggs in one basket, no matter if it is commodities/stocks/bonds/real estate/business.
David Swensen, is that you?
I agree 100%. It is a hedge against inflation and also helps to mitigate risk in case of a market decline. If you want to generate wealth, look at equity not gold.
I'm not investing in anything right now (college student) but I've been studying the subject in my free time and economics/business is something I'm passionate about. Obviously, take my advice in that context as I'm far from an expert in investment.
Crow Hunter
04-15-13, 14:13
In all fairness, as posted above, silver does have some great antibacterial properties. Heck, they're putting it in hunting clothing now as scent control.
But not bar silver or coins. :D
Collodial silver, Silver ions or silver nitrate.
If you have the equipment to make that from silver bullion, you can just boil/decant/distill the water. :D
Crow Hunter
04-15-13, 14:19
David Swensen, is that you?
No.
But thanks for the compliment!
I am a Boglehead though. :D
But not bar silver or coins. :D
Collodial silver, Silver ions or silver nitrate.
If you have the equipment to make that from silver bullion, you can just boil/decant/distill the water. :D
Touche! :p
Let me answer a couple questions.
What would I trade or use in hard times instead of gold?
Ammo, weapons, shelter, skills, work, med supplies, gear, transportation, ect ect. I would STEADFASTLY turn down all offers of currency and metals.
As for silver being used for water purification and the like, that is 100% correct..HOWEVER...do you know how and have the ability to turn ingots or coins into the processed silver to make the filters needed to do this? You don't just drop a couple of Mercury Dimes into a gallon of water!!:smile: So again, the metals are just useless weight.
As for metals being sought out centuries before there was any real industrial or medical use for them, again, 100% correct....HOWEVER, a lot of that was used in religious idols, and a LOT of that was sought out by Kings, and whatever any society calle its leaders at the time, ...just a VERY select few.
Im speaking about ME now...my needs and thoughts, btw. I just have no need, nor see ANY need to have items that cannot be used to sustain life in some way and that can be, AND WILL BE DE-VALUED at the whims of man, or by economic situations.
So, again respectfuly, those that asked me, let me ask YOU....in ANY
SHTF, TEOTWAWKI event, local, regional, national, or worldwide,
do you see ANY of the items I mentioned earlier as being LESS valuable or MORE valuable than metals?
I should have clarified better. Silver can be used in cases of emergency as a stand alone water purifier- with accetable results. or in addition to chlorine making less chlorine necesary to purify tk the same level.
And yeah you could take (or make at home- yes) colloidal silver to saturate filter substrates in and increase efficacy/efficiency as well as filter lifecycle. As well as use it as an antibacterial when in a pinch- it's MUCH better than nothing.
Also- simply boiling water doesn't make ALL water drinkable. Heavy metals need be filtered out or adsorbed and removed somehow- silver does this...
Im thinking long term with silver/gold in my statements. As I stated- in the short term it will be almost worthless without very specific and specialized skills to utlize it properly.
Of course I value guns, ammo, food, ethanol, drinkable water, etc more than gold/silver in a shtf scenario- just that I prepare long term
and know I will,eventually NEED the gold/silver for long term survival. Just like I have a long term seed stock that is worthless in short term but NECESSARY for long term survival...
A 1/2 pound of silver and an ounce or two of gold is a great addition to any long term survival prep. For various reasons...
Seems some are forgetting that the total collapse of society is a very different scenario than the far more likely one, which is a depression-like scenario.
That's the trillion dollar question right now.
With how things are going, and planned to go- I would give it a year or two before the US dollar is no longer the preferredworld reserve currency/petro dollar. Countries are already starting to trade in other currencies. Our collapse has been long in the making.
I've been feeling like a huge event is coming, though; one that will cut the time table significantly- I just can't get my head around it fully at this time...
I would have to argee..once faith is lost in a fiat currency, it can never be restored..I mean, if you were a overseas investor, which would you choose? a fiat currency backed primarly by bullshit,(like the U.S. dollar) or a currency backed by something tangiable, like gold?(think Yuan, BRICS) I would say this..those of you who can, and have a few extra bucks..Keep an eye of the prices of gold/silver in the next few days, and be prepared to move quickly.. If the price of gold gets around $1300 an oz or less, I'd consider buying, ditto for silver if it gets say, about $20/oz. I would'nt sink my whole life savings into it, But, say 10% of your savings, yeah, why not? As far as I know, Gold, Silver have never went to zero value..History is full of examples of fiat currency's that have...
Crow Hunter
04-15-13, 14:41
I should have clarified better. Silver can be used in cases of emergency as a stand alone water purifier- with accetable results. or in addition to chlorine making less chlorine necesary to purify tk the same level.
And yeah you could take (or make at home- yes) colloidal silver to saturate filter substrates in and increase efficacy/efficiency as well as filter lifecycle. As well as use it as an antibacterial when in a pinch- it's MUCH better than nothing.
Also- simply boiling water doesn't make ALL water drinkable. Heavy metals need be filtered out or adsorbed and removed somehow- silver does this...
Im thinking long term with silver/gold in my statements. As I stated- in the short term it will be almost worthless without very specific and specialized skills to utlize it properly.
Of course I value guns, ammo, food, ethanol, drinkable water, etc more than gold/silver in a shtf scenario- just that I prepare long term
and know I will,eventually NEED the gold/silver for long term survival. Just like I have a long term seed stock that is worthless in short term but NECESSARY for long term survival...
A 1/2 pound of silver and an ounce or two of gold is a great addition to any long term survival prep. For various reasons...
I would like to just have a 1/2 lb of silver and and several oz of gold just to play with. I have quite a few old silver coins that I just like to hold and feel the weight.
Personally, if I am trying to get heavy metals out of water, I am going to boil/decant/distill water. From what I understand, silver is a heavy metal. :D Don't you need a chellating compound bond with and percipitate heavy metals? It has been a while since Inorganic Chemistry.;)
Plus you have to have electricity and acid to make colloidal silver solution.
Me, I would just make a solar still or work out a way to distill it before I would do all that work to make colloidal silver for water filtration.
But not bar silver or coins. :D
Collodial silver, Silver ions or silver nitrate.
If you have the equipment to make that from silver bullion, you can just boil/decant/distill the water. :D
It is extermely easy to make colloidal silver from silver bullion at home. I have a generator I built from scratch- super basic & super easy.
Distilling water is a great method and probably the best all around method to purify water. I am a commercial/contract distiller so I know quite a bit about distialltion. I also have distillers for this very purpose and would use them when possible and able.
But think of these aspects of distilling that are draw backs from a survival stand point:
-Cost/source of energy (Solar stills are not efficient and require lots of time/effort and space for small amount sof pure water production- it isn't realistic if you needed to be on the run or constantly moving from problem areas or people). The commercial solar stills (A am aware of currently) that are efficient are large and cumbersome- something perfect for a home, but not on the move.
-Equipment necessary- yes you can use a black plastic sheet and a simple survival still set up with rocks and tree trunks, but do you really think you will be collecting enough water to supprot short term let alone long term water needs? Ever gone out in the woods and built one/run it to see the efficiency and time/effort involved (I have)? It isn't as easy or as efficient as one might think,a nd just the trouble shooting necessary prior to getting a good output could spell disaster in many-a survival situation).
-Distilling water does remove the majority (Not all of them as many would posit falsely) of minerals essential to good health. Over time you have to find a source for these minerals to replenish the ones your body uses daily. Although this isn't as big a deal as some make it out to be, it is a factor. (And no- distilled water doesn't leach minerals from your body as some will posit- that is a myth to help sell water filters)
-To remove VOC's & other organic chemicals & unwanted gasses that will be boiled off and condensed with the water you seek to collect- you either have to have very specific equipment (Pin valves & thermometers in tandem with a fractionating reflux column distiller to release unwanted gasses) or you have to pre-treat or post-treat with very specific charred-carbon (Which you could make just about anywhere- if you had the know-how). Running into the same equipment/weight issues- if you are or will be on the move...
Where silver shines (Pun intended) is that it is small & easy to travel with- and great for emergency use when other methods are not available/realistic and is acceptable for removing bacteria/heavey metals and other volatile components to minimum drinkable standards in a survival situation- ALL BY ITSELF.
Believe me, I am not saying it is THE only/best way to purify water in every situation, but it has its place in my opinion; and if I had to ditch all my water purifying gear/set-up to survive/bug out, I would at least have the silver and colloidal silver generator (Very small and easy to travel with) to help in the short term to purify water until I could utilize a more preferred method.
It is extermely easy to make colloidal silver from silver bullion at home. I have a generator I built from scratch- super basic & super easy.
Distilling water is a great method and probably the best all around method to purify water. I am a commercial/contract distiller so I know quite a bit about distialltion. I also have distillers for this very purpose and would use them when possible and able.
But think of these aspects of distilling that are draw backs from a survival stand point:
-Cost/source of energy (Solar stills are not efficient and require lots of time/effort and space for small amount sof pure water production- it isn't realistic if you needed to be on the run or constantly moving from problem areas or people). The commercial solar stills (A am aware of currently) that are efficient are large and cumbersome- something perfect for a home, but not on the move.
-Equipment necessary- yes you can use a black plastic sheet and a simple survival still set up with rocks and tree trunks, but do you really think you will be collecting enough water to supprot short term let alone long term water needs? Ever gone out in the woods and built one/run it to see the efficiency and time/effort involved (I have)? It isn't as easy or as efficient as one might think,a nd just the trouble shooting necessary prior to getting a good output could spell disaster in many-a survival situation).
-Distilling water does remove the majority (Not all of them as many would posit falsely) of minerals essential to good health. Over time you have to find a source for these minerals to replenish the ones your body uses daily. Although this isn't as big a deal as some make it out to be, it is a factor. (And no- distilled water doesn't leach minerals from your body as some will posit- that is a myth to help sell water filters)
-To remove VOC's & other organic chemicals & unwanted gasses that will be boiled off and condensed with the water you seek to collect- you either have to have very specific equipment (Pin valves & thermometers in tandem with a fractionating reflux column distiller to release unwanted gasses) or you have to pre-treat or post-treat with very specific charred-carbon (Which you could make just about anywhere- if you had the know-how). Running into the same equipment/weight issues- if you are or will be on the move...
Where silver shines (Pun intended) is that it is small & easy to travel with- and great for emergency use when other methods are not available/realistic and is acceptable for removing bacteria/heavey metals and other volatile components to minimum drinkable standards in a survival situation- ALL BY ITSELF.
Believe me, I am not saying it is THE only/best way to purify water in every situation, but it has its place in my opinion; and if I had to ditch all my water purifying gear/set-up to survive/bug out, I would at least have the silver and colloidal silver generator (Very small and easy to travel with) to help in the short term to purify water until I could utilize a more preferred method.
Great info, thanks.
Straight Shooter
04-15-13, 15:35
Safetyhit-
You are right...but think on this a bit.
HOW DIFFERENT were the men & women who went thru the Depression than people today? I submit to you, as I told a friend a couple hours ago..."survival" TODAY for MILLIONS of people consists of a "gubment check" in the mailbox every two weeks.
As the saying goes...we as a nation are just "nine meals away from anarchy". The VAST majority of sheeple today could not, and would not, live thru what our parents & grandparents lived thru in the Depression. Once eveybodys electronic shit went off, everyones ADHD meds ran out, all the welfare rats didn't get there checks, ect., then that "depression scenario" turns into economic collapse.
I see that so very easily. Add to that shit like what just happened in Boston, maybe hundreds of times worse...well things could go south ASAP.
Yes...WATER is first, and foremost. Ive got more I could say....but Ive had several beers, been up over 30 hous, and Im gonna hush before I go incoherent!!:smile:
GOD BLESS THE BOSTON VICTIMS.
Crow Hunter
04-15-13, 15:40
It is extermely easy to make colloidal silver from silver bullion at home. I have a generator I built from scratch- super basic & super easy.
Distilling water is a great method and probably the best all around method to purify water. I am a commercial/contract distiller so I know quite a bit about distialltion. I also have distillers for this very purpose and would use them when possible and able.
But think of these aspects of distilling that are draw backs from a survival stand point:
-Cost/source of energy (Solar stills are not efficient and require lots of time/effort and space for small amount sof pure water production- it isn't realistic if you needed to be on the run or constantly moving from problem areas or people). The commercial solar stills (A am aware of currently) that are efficient are large and cumbersome- something perfect for a home, but not on the move.
-Equipment necessary- yes you can use a black plastic sheet and a simple survival still set up with rocks and tree trunks, but do you really think you will be collecting enough water to supprot short term let alone long term water needs? Ever gone out in the woods and built one/run it to see the efficiency and time/effort involved (I have)? It isn't as easy or as efficient as one might think,a nd just the trouble shooting necessary prior to getting a good output could spell disaster in many-a survival situation).
-Distilling water does remove the majority (Not all of them as many would posit falsely) of minerals essential to good health. Over time you have to find a source for these minerals to replenish the ones your body uses daily. Although this isn't as big a deal as some make it out to be, it is a factor. (And no- distilled water doesn't leach minerals from your body as some will posit- that is a myth to help sell water filters)
-To remove VOC's & other organic chemicals & unwanted gasses that will be boiled off and condensed with the water you seek to collect- you either have to have very specific equipment (Pin valves & thermometers in tandem with a fractionating reflux column distiller to release unwanted gasses) or you have to pre-treat or post-treat with very specific charred-carbon (Which you could make just about anywhere- if you had the know-how). Running into the same equipment/weight issues- if you are or will be on the move...
Where silver shines (Pun intended) is that it is small & easy to travel with- and great for emergency use when other methods are not available/realistic and is acceptable for removing bacteria/heavey metals and other volatile components to minimum drinkable standards in a survival situation- ALL BY ITSELF.
Believe me, I am not saying it is THE only/best way to purify water in every situation, but it has its place in my opinion; and if I had to ditch all my water purifying gear/set-up to survive/bug out, I would at least have the silver and colloidal silver generator (Very small and easy to travel with) to help in the short term to purify water until I could utilize a more preferred method.
I will defer to your obviously greater knowledge of this than mine.
What mechanism does colloidal silver utilize to eliminate HM contamination?
What do you use as a colloidal silver generator? Don't you need electricity and some type of acid to create it? Vinegar and batteries or something similar?
Right now I have a plan to use water heater water, followed by stored water, followed by lake behind the house, followed by moving 15 miles West to the Mississippi River. :)
My planned and alternate routes to the family retreat is along several minor river sources. But a lightweight multi-use money/purification setup would be very useful.
Straight Shooter
04-15-13, 15:45
Let me say this about colloidal silver-
It is VERY much debated on effectiveness, and does in fact have side effects.
Also...if you ingest too much, it WILL PERMANENTLY turn your skin SMURF BLUE. There is a guy who is permanently blue I saw an article about last year. As with most stuff, there is pro's & con's, so PLEASE study this very carefully!!
montanadave
04-15-13, 15:48
Now this is some serious thread drift.
From a discussion of volatility in the gold market and monetary inflation to TEOTWAWKI water purification techniques.
:D
I would like to just have a 1/2 lb of silver and and several oz of gold just to play with. I have quite a few old silver coins that I just like to hold and feel the weight.
Personally, if I am trying to get heavy metals out of water, I am going to boil/decant/distill water. From what I understand, silver is a heavy metal. :D Don't you need a chellating compound bond with and percipitate heavy metals? It has been a while since Inorganic Chemistry.;)
Plus you have to have electricity and acid to make colloidal silver solution.
Me, I would just make a solar still or work out a way to distill it before I would do all that work to make colloidal silver for water filtration.
And I would do the same thing (I actually distill my drinking water at home currently anyways)- when the circumstance allowed, but I realize that not every circumstance in a given SHTF scenario will allow for such a system to be in place and produce enough drinkable water to survive on...
Colloidal silver is for keeping existing filtration equipment cleaner and increases the longevity of the product/filter when utilized correctly- something that could make or break you in certain situations.
Silver (Bullion- yes) can be used ALL BY ITSELF, in extreme emergency situations to yield drinkable water (Minimal standards) until a better method could be utilized. It is light and easy to travel with.
Also it is used to stave off infections and bacteria. Something that is VERY useful in a SHTF scenario- long term or short term.
The electricity needed is easily harvested from the sun, a dynamo, other field improvised equipment or rechargeable batteries (Again recharged by the sun or a dynamo), the acid can be harvested from several natural sources depending on specific region, or you can dissovle citric acid (Available in powder form) into a useable solution.
Silver on its own will attract heavy metals and allow them to be removed. This is how common day ceramic filters work- with nano-silver particles impregnated to attract and remove the heavy metals.
I totaly understand what you are saying, but have you actually gone into the woods and built/operated a solar still? Done it for a week and had to survive on the water you produce?
Although it is a very basic/simple design around a basic concept- it is a lot of work and a lot of issues to work out in the real world before you can start collecting the necessary water needed for survival. Not impossible, but not as easy as I think most would imagine. Especially if you're already in a stressfull life and death/survival situation to begin with.
Let me say this about colloidal silver-
It is VERY much debated on effectiveness, and does in fact have side effects.
Also...if you ingest too much, it WILL PERANENTLY turn your skin SMURF BLUE. There is a guy who is permanently blue I saw an article about last year. As with most stuff, there is pro's & con's, so PLEASE study this very carefully!!
You are correct, the debate is very heated. But I have done my own testing on myself and my family and know that it would be better to have a good (There are different forms of colloidal silver) CS to help prevent infection and spreading of bacteria.
Just go get a custard plate and throw some bacteria on there; get another an put some bacteria and colloidal silver and see the difference in growth rate- it makes a BIG difference from the tests I have done.
In response to your smurf comment:
Here are the most common froms of colloidal silver found:
-ionic silver
-silver protein
-true colloidal silver
The 2 former will turn you blue taken in too great of quantities; the latter will not.
The newest studies are showing colloidal silver (TRUE CS) decimates fungal pathogens and common bacteria. It is interesting stuff...
Now this is some serious thread drift.
From a discussion of volatility in the gold market and monetary inflation to TEOTWAWKI water purification techniques.
:D
You are correct, and I apologize for such a mega-drift. I get going sometimes...
And with that- let's end the epic thread drift and get back on topic...
The volaltility in the gold markets is a manipulation- plain and simple. the price is being artificially driven down (How else could the REAL supply go down so drastically, yet prices drop?); it is all out there for you to see...
Now this is some serious thread drift.
From a discussion of volatility in the gold market and monetary inflation to TEOTWAWKI water purification techniques.
:D
It's been a weird day.
This is an interesting website: it lists historical prices on a bunch of items based on gold instead of dollars. While there are ups and downs, there is less volatility when you look at these items prices in gold, which shows golds value as a reservoir of wealth.
http://pricedingold.com/
---
montanadave
04-15-13, 16:21
It's been a weird day.
No argument here.
The volaltility in the gold markets is a manipulation- plain and simple. the price is being artificially driven down (How else could the REAL supply go down so drastically, yet prices drop?); it is all out there for you to see...
I learned a fundamental tenant of sound investing at an early age and it has served me well for over fifty years. I refer to it as the Gomez Adams Financial Maxim and it can be succinctly expressed as "buy high, sell low." Following this strategy, I have been able to achieve consistently poor performance regardless of market fluctuations. Additionally, there are multiple benefits to be derived from knowing when that bell rings at the end of the trading day, your losses are locked in. :)
Straight Shooter
04-15-13, 17:05
Sorry for my drifts...been a good, interesting thread tho thus far.:smile:
montanadave
04-15-13, 17:14
Just to clarify, my remark regarding thread drift was solely an observation, not an admonition. I've been known to lead a thread astray a time or two myself. ;)
ForTehNguyen
04-15-13, 17:22
buying opportunity
This is an interesting website: it lists historical prices on a bunch of items based on gold instead of dollars. While there are ups and downs, there is less volatility when you look at these items prices in gold, which shows golds value as a reservoir of wealth.
http://pricedingold.com/
---
As a followup to this
http://pricedingold.com/crude-oil/
This shows that if you had X amount of money to buy gold in 1950 or keep it as cash, that gold today would buy actually a little more oil NOW than it would in 1950 (East Texas oil).
However, each dollar you kept as cash in 1950 to now would be only worth a little over 10 cents
http://www.dollartimes.com/calculators/inflation.htm
The price of East Texas oil was about $3 a barrel in 1950 (google "https://www.google.com/search?q=1950+price+of+oil&client=safari&rls=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=a4dsUeTSJoXH0gH0zIHQAQ&ved=0CEIQsAQ&biw=1533&bih=1252#imgrc=fyM72HnieFZETM%3A%3BfiyOxhmUV3m_BM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.marketoracle.co.uk%252Fimages%252F1950to2007OilPrices.gif%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.marketoracle.co.uk%252FArticle1375.html%3B450%3B421" and look at the charts)
So if you had a barrel of oil in 1950 that you sold for gold, you'd have enough gold today to buy that barrel of oil back and have a little left over.
If you sold that barrel of oil in 1950 for $3 cash, you'd have about $0.31 in value today if you stuck it in your mattress.
If you took that $3 income from your barrel of oil and stuck it in the bank at 4% annual interest (which is generous and over the average inflation rate since 1950 which is around 3.68%) you'd have between $37 and $38 with monthly compounding.
ETA: That same $3 put in the bank at 2% compounded monthly, since 1950, would only be about $10.57 in value. You'd need approximately 9x that to buy that barrel of oil back. You'd have to average about 5.5% since 1950 in a bank account to get around $95 today, about a barrel of oil (plus or minus, it changes a bunch, last few days down I believe). 5.5% in the bank on average, every year since 1950 is not realistic. You'd have had to really play around with high risk investments to equal that.
----
montanadave
04-15-13, 18:25
Along a similar line, a silver dollar in 1950 would have purchased about 5 gallons of gas. Fast forward to today, that same silver dollar would purchase about ... five gallons of gas (based on ASW of .77 troy ounces of silver in a silver dollar, a silver price of $23/oz, and $3.50/gal gasoline).
Go figure.
Belmont31R
04-15-13, 18:30
Gold was detached from the dollar a long time ago. Not sure why people are so suprised they aren't in lockstep, and the inflation ratings are so ****ed up they don't even include energy or food prices. I can damn well tell you its easy to spend $100 at the grocery store and walk out with 4-5 bags with like 2-3 days worth or dinners, some lunch stuff, and breakfast. Everyone I know with kids and likes to eat at home is spending 600-1000 a month on food. Just 4-5 years ago $100 would have a bought a lot more, and gas was a lot cheaper. It was under $2/gal when Obama took office.
montanadave
04-15-13, 19:47
Just 4-5 years ago $100 would have a bought a lot more, and gas was a lot cheaper. It was under $2/gal when Obama took office.
And gas was over $4/gal roughly six months before he was elected. Global recessions tend to have an impact on commodities pricing. And recoveries, however weak, tend to have an opposite impact.
And gas was over $4/gal roughly six months before he was elected. Global recessions tend to have an impact on commodities pricing. And recoveries, however weak, tend to have an opposite impact.
Got to give Bush credit then since he left office with it down. He (and he alone) drove the price down before leaving office. Must be his fault!!! :rolleyes:
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montanadave
04-15-13, 20:36
Got to give Bush credit then since he left office with it down. He (and he alone) drove the price down before leaving office. Must be his fault!!! :rolleyes:
---
Oh, I give W credit for all a whole host of things. :)
But this seems neither the time nor the place to flog that particular dead horse.
Oh, I give W credit for all a whole host of things. :)
But this seems neither the time nor the place to flog that particular dead horse.
Was not really directed to you and in a way was supporting your comments.
While overall gas price trends can be influenced greatly by the policies that he President espouses, market fluctuations and day to day and month to month prices are more driven by other factors.
--
montanadave
04-15-13, 20:44
Was not really directed to you and in a way was supporting your comments.
While overall gas price trends can be influenced greatly by the policies that he President espouses, market fluctuations and day to day and month to month prices are more driven by other factors.
--
Agreed. Listening to candidates pander to the masses with pipe-dream promises of $2/gal gas makes me want to retch. Hell, I'll give ya $2 gas ... assuming you don't mind the DJIA at 6000, 15% unemployment, and half the equity you currently hold on your house.
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-15-13, 20:53
Was not really directed to you and in a way was supporting your comments.
While overall gas price trends can be influenced greatly by the policies that he President espouses, market fluctuations and day to day and month to month prices are more driven by other factors.
--
A near shut down in 2008 of the global manufacturing system helps bring down prices too.
Thanks for everyone's input. Just saw the headline and thought I'd throw some raw meat ;)
Agreed. Listening to candidates pander to the masses with pipe-dream promises of $2/gal gas makes me want to retch. Hell, I'll give ya $2 gas ... assuming you don't mind the DJIA at 6000, 15% unemployment, and half the equity you currently hold on your house.
It wouldn't necessarily be that.
There are government policies and stuff that affect the overall pricing levels, but not specific prices:
* get rid of the ethanol crap mandate
* open up a lot more drilling
* get rid of the impediments to building and upgrading refineries.
* get out of the way
That would drive overall prices down over a longer period of time.
---
Gold should not be a "day trader" short term investment. You play with fire, you'll get burned. Today's headlines are talking about that.
But over a long period of time as a long term investment, and/or as a store of wealth, it makes a lot of sense and works quite well.
---
The_War_Wagon
04-15-13, 21:36
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/6055d326-a5ad-11e2-9b77-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2QXDshph9
Gold 26% off its peak. Does that mean that inflation is down 26%? I've never been a fan of 'fiat' money as you call it because it has some major issues, but I've never understood why people think some yellow metal that is found and sometimes lost is the magical answer.
Is there some great conspiracy at play? Central banks selling bullion on the down low to get the high price and not ruffle the market? Shouldn't something like Cypress make gold higher?
It's a GREAT time to BUY! J.P. Morgan, prime among a host of manipulators, are shoveling paper gold & silver "short" positions as fast as they can print them. They'll be "TOO big to BAIL," when they finally get their righteous desserts... of fiat crap.
Bullets are good - gold is l-o-n-g t-e-r-m wealth storage... assuming you HAVE some wealth to store.
brickboy240
04-16-13, 11:39
Say the "S" does hit the "F".
What will tons of gold coins do for you?
You cannot eat them. Your neighbor will probably not trade you a can of beans or case of water for the gold coin.
Where are you going to redeem the things?
Seriously, I think money is better spent on beans, band-aids and bullets than on too much gold coins.
I have a few in gold coins storage but don't plan on buying tons more because I doubt their helpfulness in an emergency situation.
When the power goes out and the banks close...food, ammo and medical supplies are going to do more good than a pocket full of European gold coins....think about it.
-brickboy240
An interesting quote from this article (http://lewrockwell.com/maund/maund17.1.html).
“Did gold fall off the cliff because the dollar index ripped higher? NO! Did Uncle Ben Bernanke say they were stopping the $85 billion + QE immediately? NO! Has physical gold become more abundant than any time in the recent past? NO! Are the world's central banks stopping their counterfeiting operations by devaluing their currency by stopping the printing presses? NO! It's quite the opposite, Japan, U.S., and the EU are increasing the money supply.
Things to look at that are happening. Are Russia, China, and India amongst other nations still buying huge amounts of gold? YES! Is QE going to continue? YES! They cannot stop it now, because they'll have a HUGE deflationary episodes which those in power do not want. It would be what is needed to reset the scales of the financial system and debts around the globe, but would mean huge financial losses to the powers that be. Silver isn't becoming more abundant, it is rarer than gold, so why is it around $26 bucks per ounce?
As we look at the charts on the precious metals, just remember, not all is what it seems. In chess you disguise your true intentions by moving the pieces around the board, setting them up for the attack; better deception skills you have, the more likely you'll win the game. Think 2-3 moves ahead of your opponent, and you'll always come out a winner.”
Crow Hunter
04-16-13, 13:18
http://www.safehaven.com/article/24747/warren-buffett-vs-real-cash
From a Warren Buffet article linked above.
This is why I don't "invest" in gold.
"Today the world's gold stock is about 170,000 metric tons. If all of this gold were melded together, it would form a cube of about 68 feet per side. (Picture it fitting comfortably within a baseball infield.) At $1,750 per ounce - gold's price as I write this - its value would be $9.6 trillion. Call this cube pile A.
Let's now create a pile B costing an equal amount. For that, we could buy all U.S. cropland (400 million acres with output of about $200 billion annually), plus 16 Exxon Mobils (the world's most profitable company, one earning more than $40 billion annually). After these purchases, we would have about $1 trillion left over for walking-around money (no sense feeling strapped after this buying binge). Can you imagine an investor with $9.6 trillion selecting pile A over pile B?
Also:
From the author and I agree.
A century from now the 400 million acres of farmland will have produced staggering amounts of corn, wheat, cotton, and other crops - and will continue to produce that valuable bounty, whatever the currency may be. Exxon Mobil will probably have delivered trillions of dollars in dividends to its owners and will also hold assets worth many more trillions (and, remember, you get 16 Exxons). The 170,000 tons of gold will be unchanged in size and still incapable of producing anything. You can fondle the cube, but it will not respond. (Emphasis added by me)
As an inflation hedge/store of wealth, gold is fine. It is not a good "investment" if you want to generate wealth from it and in my opinion should not make up a significant portion of your portfolio. It could be a good component in something like this if you are a Browne adherent, I personally am not:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fail-Safe_Investing
From a Warren Buffet article linked above.
This is why I don't "invest" in gold.
Here's a small snippet from an article that contradicts Buffett, I suggest reading the rest. http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2012/02/warren-buffett-as-gold-hater.html
Here's the problem with Buffett's rant. Gold is an alternative money. It is not productive land or a piece of capital. It shouldn't be compared to farmland, to Exxon Mobil etc. It is a means of exchange.
Gold needs to be compared to its alternative, in the U.S., the dollar. The proper way to look at the difference between the two is this way. If you take that 170,000 metric tons and put it into a baseball field and next to it you put the total money supply, over time you will see that the gold supply increases by roughly 2,500 tons per year.
Tell Buffet to stick this in his pipe and smoke it.
http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss73/dorseydwa/BRKvsGold.png
Another good article on the subject. http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig12/buffett1.1.1.html
FromMyColdDeadHand
04-16-13, 15:58
Here's a small snippet from an article that contradicts Buffett, I suggest reading the rest. http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2012/02/warren-buffett-as-gold-hater.html
Tell Buffet to stick this in his pipe and smoke it.
http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss73/dorseydwa/BRKvsGold.png
Another good article on the subject. http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig12/buffett1.1.1.html
And the longer term....
http://s.wsj.net/public/resources/images/OB-SB520_GoldBu_K_20120305150809.jpg
SOurce:
http://blogs.wsj.com/marketbeat/2012/03/05/buffett-vs-gold-who-do-you-bet-on/
Here's a small snippet from an article that contradicts Buffett, I suggest reading the rest. http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2012/02/warren-buffett-as-gold-hater.html
Tell Buffet to stick this in his pipe and smoke it.
http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss73/dorseydwa/BRKvsGold.png
Another good article on the subject. http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig12/buffett1.1.1.html
Exactly. Gold is not an investment, unless you're a day trader. It doesn't produce anything. It's only a hedge against monetary inflation, which governments since forever have tried to inflate their way out of debt. The history is there for those choose to not ignore it.
Say the "S" does hit the "F".
What will tons of gold coins do for you?
You cannot eat them. Your neighbor will probably not trade you a can of beans or case of water for the gold coin.
Where are you going to redeem the things?
Seriously, I think money is better spent on beans, band-aids and bullets than on too much gold coins.
I have a few in gold coins storage but don't plan on buying tons more because I doubt their helpfulness in an emergency situation.
When the power goes out and the banks close...food, ammo and medical supplies are going to do more good than a pocket full of European gold coins....think about it.
-brickboy240
Its a mean to store your wealth against an currency crisis, economic shtf. When the next fiat currency is started after the current one collapses, you're not starting from zero.
And the longer term....
http://s.wsj.net/public/resources/images/OB-SB520_GoldBu_K_20120305150809.jpg
SOurce:
http://blogs.wsj.com/marketbeat/2012/03/05/buffett-vs-gold-who-do-you-bet-on/
You're comparing price VS a percentage in growth. I understand BHW has done well as an investment but I have no love for the piece of shit, hypocrite Buffett.
Gold is also manipulated by our government, been made illegal, etc. I don't think comparing the two is apples to apples but it's what I could find.
Exactly. Gold is not an investment, unless you're a day trader. It doesn't produce anything. It's only a hedge against monetary inflation, which governments since forever have tried to inflate their way out of debt. The history is there for those choose to not ignore it.
So if I bought 10 MS64 St. Gaudens when they were less than $400 an ounce it wasn't an investment?
Crow Hunter
04-16-13, 16:29
Its a mean to store your wealth against an currency crisis, economic shtf. When the next fiat currency is started after the current one collapses, you're not starting from zero.
That is making the assumption, and unfortunately a BIG assumption that the "Powers That Be" don't seize and/or make illegal to own/use gold for anything but jewelry.
Which has been done in the US before. :(
Crow Hunter
04-16-13, 16:35
So if I bought 10 MS64 St. Gaudens when they were less than $400 an ounce it wasn't an investment?
Did you buy them with the expectation that they would grow and provide you with income in the future?
Or did you buy them as a hedge to inflation?
Or did you buy them because the looked pretty and enjoyed the tinkling sound as they run through your fingers?
If you bought them expecting them to grow, YOU bought them as a speculative investment, and luckily you were correct. Someone buying right now at $1,400 an ounce and expecting to see it grow is probably NOT going to get the "growth" that you got.
Not to mention the tax treatment of gold. If you sell it, it is going to be taxed as a "collectable" and you will get HAMMERED by taxes compared to long term capital gains or dividends.
Its a mean to store your wealth against an currency crisis, economic shtf. When the next fiat currency is started after the current one collapses, you're not starting from zero.
Assuming you have a significant portion of your portfolio in physical gold AND have possession of said gold.
Did you buy them with the expectation that they would grow and provide you with income in the future?
With the devaluing of the dollar, plus inflation, anyone expecting real "growth" out of most investments in the next decade or two will be in for a real shock.
Ask about people who bought Eurobonds expecting them to provide income for the future.
Or who invested in any number of other "real investments."
Gold is a long term "investment" that keeps value over the long run.
Or did you buy them as a hedge to inflation?
Or did you buy them because the looked pretty and enjoyed the tinkling sound as they run through your fingers?
If you bought them expecting them to grow, YOU bought them as a speculative investment, and luckily you were correct. Someone buying right now at $1,400 an ounce and expecting to see it grow is probably NOT going to get the "growth" that you got.
Not to mention the tax treatment of gold. If you sell it, it is going to be taxed as a "collectable" and you will get HAMMERED by taxes compared to long term capital gains or dividends.
Assuming you have a significant portion of your portfolio in physical gold AND have possession of said gold.
This is a good point. Speculating on Gold paper, like ETFs, or on gold miners, is not buying gold. It is speculating on paper assets. 1/2 way there is buying real gold, but storing it elsewhere. In the gravest extremes, you lose since you don't have it, but for things like wealth preservation, if the current system does not totally collapse, it can be of use.
When you buy gold, you should get the gold in your hand.
--
Gold Will Get The Last Laugh On Central Banks - Forbes
http://www.forbes.com/sites/greatspeculations/2013/04/17/gold-will-get-the-last-laugh-on-central-banks/
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brickboy240
04-17-13, 11:42
If you buy gold now...you are buying high.
Is that ever a good idea?
-brickboy240
If you buy gold now...you are buying high.
Is that ever a good idea?
-brickboy240
You're making assumptions.
Based on world economic trajectory, many smart people think that long term, gold will go much higher.
And with gold being down approx $400-$600 (depending on day etc with the wild swings) it could also be an opportunity.
Like stock averaging, where you buy some every month, gold can be bought the same way.
I just wish I had some money to start putting back in silver and gold.
--
So if I bought 10 MS64 St. Gaudens when they were less than $400 an ounce it wasn't an investment?
We're splitting hairs now. If you bought it low knowing someday it would rise to resell it, then yes.
Assuming you have a significant portion of your portfolio in physical gold AND have possession of said gold.
I would never buy paper gold and I would always take physical possession of of it. The % is up to the individual.
ForTehNguyen
04-23-13, 17:34
$250 gold - "gold is a bad buy!"
$500 gold - "gold is a bad buy!"
$1000 gold - "gold is a bad buy!"
$1500 gold - "gold is a bad buy!"
$1750 gold - "gold is a bad buy!"
$1400 gold - "OMG told you gold is a bad buy!"
$250 gold - "gold is a bad buy!"
$500 gold - "gold is a bad buy!"
$1000 gold - "gold is a bad buy!"
$1500 gold - "gold is a bad buy!"
$1750 gold - "gold is a bad buy!"
$1400 gold - "OMG told you gold is a bad buy!"
That about sums it up. Gold is so 2009. Everyone knows that silver is the new gold.
Submariner
05-01-13, 13:06
That is making the assumption, and unfortunately a BIG assumption that the "Powers That Be" don't seize and/or make illegal to own/use gold for anything but jewelry.
Which has been done in the US before. :(
Don't the "Powers That Be" have to send their minions to get the guns first?
Crow Hunter
05-01-13, 14:23
Don't the "Powers That Be" have to send their minions to get the guns first?
They probably would now, but they did it before without taking guns first. Prior to the 1970's it was illegal to own gold in any form other than jewelry and collector coins.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102
Since Odumbo sees himself as FDR reincarnated, I wouldn't put it beyond the realm of possibility.
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