View Full Version : Carbine length 14.5" versus carbine length 16"?
I've researched, found and read a library's worth of information on the carbine v mid-length discussions, the 14.5" v 16" middy discussions, and 14.5" carbine v 16" middy.
Can't find much comparing 14.5" carbine to 16" carbine.
I'm waiting on a Daniel Defense build code. Planned build is essentially a V1 LW with a 14.5" barrel. Code's taking a while to come, and standard 16" V1 LWs are available.
I'm aware that the dwell time on a 14.5" carbine is closer to what some consider ideal for reliability and smooth recoil pulse; I'm also aware that more than just dwell time affect reliability and felt recoil (port size, buffer weight and spring rate, etc.).
This rifle will be multi-use; in order of importance: HD, range and carbine class.
Anyone with practical knowledge and experience who can comment on what if any meaningful performance differences there are between otherwise identical, carbine gas length set-ups with 14.5" versus 16" barrels?
Issues pertaining to a pinned flash hider or the relative merits of overall rifle length aren't in consideration; reliability, shootability, durability are.
If there are compelling reasons to wait for a build code and get the 14.5" V1 LW, I'd like to hear them. If it makes little practical difference, I'd like to pull the trigger on a 16" V1 LW now.
I'm curious why you're not including the 16" midlength in your question. Is it also going to increase your wait time? I have the DDM4 V3 LW and love the configuration.
I'm sure many will say the 14.5" carbine length gas and 16" midlength are optimal. But you already know that. Good luck on your DD.
Doc Safari
04-16-13, 09:50
I have a 16" BCM carbine and a 14.5" (pinned to 16") BCM carbine. The "true" 16" will eat anything. Because the gas curve is a little different on the 14.5" I have to switch to a lighter carbine buffer when shooting milder .223 through that rifle otherwise I start getting malfunctions. I wish both carbines were 16" actually.
I'm curious why you're not including the 16" midlength in your question. Is it also going to increase your wait time? I have the DDM4 V3 LW and love the configuration.I'm focusing the question on carbine length because the V1 is set up in a way I especially like -- fixed FSP with a 12" rail -- and I also want to keep the thread from going over old territory.
(To your point, though, I'd happily grab a V5 LW or V3 LW; the V5s are few and far between right now, and the V3 in a lightweight configuration can only be gotten as a DD BYO. But they're both great configurations, and the case for a mid-length gas system on a 16" barrel is certainly compelling.)
crusader377
04-16-13, 11:00
I have both a 14.5" carbine (Daniel Defense LW) build, and a 16" carbine (Charles Daly M4LE) both are using standard H buffers. From my experience there is very little difference in perceived recoil between the two carbines. Both have been 100% reliable with a wide variety of ammunition from lightly loaded .223 all the way to full power 5.56. I terms of MV the 16" carbines have a slight advantage 50-75 fps, IIRC while the 14.5" carbine is slightly more maneuverable. I think the biggest question is do you want to change the muzzle device. If you don't think you will ever change it, I would go with the 14.5 with a pinned muzzle device to bring you up to 16". If you may want to change the muzzle device, 16" is the way to go.
Another really good option would be a 16" LW Midlength.
I have a 16" BCM carbine and a 14.5" (pinned to 16") BCM carbine. The "true" 16" will eat anything. Because the gas curve is a little different on the 14.5" I have to switch to a lighter carbine buffer when shooting milder .223 through that rifle otherwise I start getting malfunctions. I wish both carbines were 16" actually.Thank you for the feedback. I'm surprised, though -- I was under the impression that the carbine, even in a 14.5" configuration, would have more robust extraction (what some people experience as sharper recoil), and so a greater ability to extract lighter loads... :confused:
I run a H buffer 4.0 oz ,in my 14.5" middy , no problems even shooting cheap steel ammo
Aside from the performance issue (which is little difference) I would go with the 16". Leaves nothing permanent. With ARs you experiment and pinning limits that unless you like destroying muzzle devices. I just bought 2 14.5s recently. They're both pinned. I've always had 16s. Bought them because Buford T. Justice's thread about his 14.5/A5 being a smooth shooter kept me up @ nights wanting to try out his idea as well. ;) But I would always default to a 16" barrel.
I say get the 16 ESPECIALLY if you are undecided on what to get. If you are undecided as to what you want in a barrel, chances are you are undecided in other areas. What if you get the shorter barrel & want to try out a Noveske NSR or say a Battlecomp? There are other things to consider besides differences in performance.
-Jax
I have both a 14.5" carbine (Daniel Defense LW) build, and a 16" carbine (Charles Daly M4LE) both are using standard H buffers. From my experience there is very little difference in perceived recoil between the two carbines. Both have been 100% reliable with a wide variety of ammunition from lightly loaded .223 all the way to full power 5.56. I terms of MV the 16" carbines have a slight advantage 50-75 fps, IIRC while the 14.5" carbine is slightly more maneuverable.I do prefer lighter, more compact and maneuverable, though not at all costs. My hunch is the difference in velocity is negligible for most applications.
I think the biggest question is do you want to change the muzzle device. If you don't think you will ever change it, I would go with the 14.5 with a pinned muzzle device to bring you up to 16". If you may want to change the muzzle device, 16" is the way to go.This one won't be a tinker toy, so I'm fine with a pinned muzzle device, and with an Omega X rail I think I'm safe if I ever have to remove the hand guard because it's a two piece.
Another really good option would be a 16" LW Midlength.Agreed, though how much so is another debate altogether. ;)
The issue with the carbine length question is one of availability versus waiting, and if waiting is worth it.
This one won't be a tinker toy, so I'm fine with a pinned muzzle device, and with an Omega X rail I think I'm safe if I ever have to remove the hand guard because it's a two piece.
You're safe with taking off the handguard. You aren't safe with taking off the proprietary barrel nut.
-Jax
You're safe with taking off the handguard. You aren't safe with taking off the proprietary barrel nut.
-JaxMeaning the pinned flash hider will still be an impediment to removing the barrel nut?
Short of a repair of some kind, would there ever be a need to remove the proprietary barrel nut if I don't intend to change the hand guard or flash hider?
Short of need to correct malfunction, I won't be trying different stuff out on this build -- I can save the tinkerer's impulse for a different rifle. In light of this, do you still feel any performance differences between the 14.5" and 16" carbine length gas system's are negligible enough to not to influence which I choose?
crusader377
04-17-13, 14:48
Short of need to correct malfunction, I won't be trying different stuff out on this build -- I can save the tinkerer's impulse for a different rifle. In light of this, do you still feel any performance differences between the 14.5" and 16" carbine length gas system's are negligible enough to not to influence which I choose?
Chances are you will never receive a malfunction that would warrant removing the rail system and barrel nut. I would probably go with the 14.5" carbine. BTW, the Daniel Defense 14.5" lightweight barrel is awesome. I did a lightweight build using that barrel and my carbine weighs in at 6.0 lbs using the magpul MOE handguards and stock.
Meaning the pinned flash hider will still be an impediment to removing the barrel nut?
You can't remove the gas block unless you remove the muzzle device. Therefore you can't remove the barrel nut either...which also precludes the changing of certain rail systems unless you can use the same barrel nut.
This is IMO the only downfall of the 14.5" system.
Short of a repair of some kind, would there ever be a need to remove the proprietary barrel nut if I don't intend to change the hand guard or flash hider?
Not likely
Short of need to correct malfunction, I won't be trying different stuff out on this build -- I can save the tinkerer's impulse for a different rifle. In light of this, do you still feel any performance differences between the 14.5" and 16" carbine length gas system's are negligible enough to not to influence which I choose?
The performance differences between 14.5" and 16" are negligible at best in terms of terminal performance as well as performance of the system as a whole (given that that system is made by a quality manufacturer). You can't go wrong with a DD where quality is concerned.
As long as you don't plan to tinker with it, the determining factor IMO is how you will be using the weapon. You mentioned HD as your first concern in order of importance. I will tell you that my experience is that a 14.5" is much easier to manuever around doors and corners than a 16", and I would consider this the max barrel length that I would want for that role (I say "want" because you can make a 20" "work" for HD, though it's not optimal). For me, that extra 1" or so on the 16" actually does make a difference in that role.
I see the 14.5" a true "Jack of all Trades", it's just too bad that legislation prevents this from being an easy setup to work with...
Hope that helps.
Go in between get 14.7 with a regular flash hider it'll get you to the legal length
Go in between get 14.7 with a regular flash hider it'll get you to the legal length
Which you would still have to pin...not sure where the benefit is unless you want a certain muzzle device that wouldn't bring a 14.5" to the legal length :confused:
wetidlerjr
04-17-13, 18:33
Ironman8 is correct about this and that is why I'm sticking with 16" barrels. I see no advantage in pinning and welding for a 1.5 inch difference that provides nothing extra.
A little late in replying but yeah Ironman covered it.
-Jax
I wish both carbines were 16" actually.
Doc I'd be interested to hear why you say that. I have two nicely configured 16" mids (one is a BCM on a Rainier Arms lower, the other a Sabre on a Rainier lower). I've considered adding a 14.5 or selling one of my mids to get a 14.5, but I keep hearing people who have tried it say that it doesn't gain them a whole lot in ease of handling, plus your point about reliability with certain loads.
jonconsiglio
04-17-13, 22:18
14.5" hands down for me. I've owned a numbe of 16" guns and just prefer 14.5". If its a carbine gas system, I'll definitely take a 14.5" which is optimal. It I'm forced into a 16", I slightly prefer a mid length.
Unless you just don't know what you want, pick a hand guard and stick with it. Worst case scenario, you cut off the flash hider and perm install a new one after you replace the barrel but.
Or use a Centurion or Troy hand guard that drops in Nd don't worry about it.
Having said that, if you're new to rifles and just don't know what you want or you like to change handguards more than you change barrels, go for 16". I only change my handguard if I rebarrel my rifle. Even ten I'll use the same one if its working for me.
14.5" hands down for me. I've owned a numbe of 16" guns and just prefer 14.5". If its a carbine gas system, I'll definitely take a 14.5" which is optimal. It I'm forced into a 16", I slightly prefer a mid length.
Unless you just don't know what you want, pick a hand guard and stick with it. Worst case scenario, you cut off the flash hider and perm install a new one after you replace the barrel but.
Or use a Centurion or Troy hand guard that drops in Nd don't worry about it.
Having said that, if you're new to rifles and just don't know what you want or you like to change handguards more than you change barrels, go for 16". I only change my handguard if I rebarrel my rifle. Even ten I'll use the same one if its working for me.
Pretty much in the same boat. The last two rifles I had assembled were 14.5' Middy's and I've been really pleased with the performance of both so far.
I used a DD Govt profile on one and it has right around 15K through it with no issues to date. The other one is fairly new and is a BCM with roughly 2500 rounds through it to date. No issues with that one either.
I have a Battlecomp on the DD barreled 14.5 and I'm using a SF Brake on the BCM. The BCM is my competition rifle and it's one of the flattest shooting AR's I own.
I have a few SBR registered lowers so, I haven't even pinned either muzzle device even though I planned to do so after I fully function tested each rifle out. Just never got around to sending them off to get pinned.
If you're worried about ever changing the barrel nut then have your muzzle device silver soldered instead of pinned. A good MAPP torch will get that puppy off.
I really like my 14.5 but pinned & welded my BC 1.5. I have no desire to swap nuts. :dance3:
If you're worried about ever changing the barrel nut then have your muzzle device silver soldered instead of pinned. A good MAPP torch will get that puppy off.
I really like my 14.5 but pinned & welded my BC 1.5. I have no desire to swap nuts. :dance3:
Not sure how the BATFE would feel about that.
-Jax
I'm building an A3 carbine using a 14.5" DD M4 bbl, Omega X handguard and BCM Mod 1 comp. Only reason I went with this combination was the lack of available parts. Now I just have to get off my lazy backside and put it together.
That said, I think the 16" LW middy is the way to go.
I've seen "negligible" used a couple times regarding velocity/terminal performance.
(last post)
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=73027
According to those numbers, using 75gr TAP, the velocity difference is 78-86 FPS (.223/5.56) which translates to 30-35 yards of reliable fragmentation.
Doesn't really fit my idea of negligible (at least not outside of 80 yards). YMMV
Having said that...
My HD rifle is in the process of being converted to a lightweight 14.5" (from 16" M4 profile).
16"- mid length with A5 system
14.5"-carbine with A5 system
Personally, I wouldn't mess with any other configuration at this point.
Having used many different lengths over the years, my current favorite is the 14.5 with pinned FH. I carried the original M-16 for many years on duty and various interations since all the way from a 24" SS bull barreled 'precision' rifle to the Noveske LW MOE. I bought the Noveske LW MOE as a prebuilt upper directly from Noveske and am so happy with it all the others have been gathering dust since I built it. Shoots great, carries like a feather and perfect for HD, plinking, and fulfills every need I currently have in an AR.
I find the extra inch and a half of the 16" rifles is a factor when in close quarters. It may not seem like it, but personally, I notice the difference.
The 16 inch middie is a real nice well balanced setup. The shorter barrel 14.5 is nice if you need the shorter barrel though.
greeneggsandsam
04-27-13, 14:46
I was thinking of cutting down my barrel from 16" to 14.5" on my DDM4 V1 which is a carbine length gas system. What kind of issues should I be aware about before I do this (e.g. should change out to heavier/lighter buffer?) I know some people mentioned issues with their 14.5" barrel but was wondering if I should just stick with the 16" and avoid any issues the 14.5" altogether. Any insight is welcomed.
If anything you'll probably just be a little less over gassed. So if you were running a really heavy buffer with the 16" you might want to cut back to a lighter weight.
... Chances are you were (are) under buffered to begin with and it would be just fine as is.
It's debatable whether or not it's worth it to cut it down (most will say no). But it shouldn't cause any issues. Just got one back from ADCO that I had chopped... But I was also having it shaved down forward of the FSB. Not sure I would have bothered having either done by itself. The combo of shorter/lighter was worth it to me though.
There is a very noticeable difference between my 16" middy w/Vortex and the 14.5" w/BCM A2X. I also have a standard M4 stock on the 14.5" while the 16" has an MOE stock with the large rubber pad, as well as a DD ambi sling swivel mount that doesn't allow the stock to fully collapse... Add it all up and the size difference is fairly substantial.
I was thinking of cutting down my barrel from 16" to 14.5" on my DDM4 V1 which is a carbine length gas system. What kind of issues should I be aware about before I do this (e.g. should change out to heavier/lighter buffer?) I know some people mentioned issues with their 14.5" barrel but was wondering if I should just stick with the 16" and avoid any issues the 14.5" altogether. Any insight is welcomed.
I'm about 99% sure that the gas ports are the same between 14.5" and 16" so you should be fine.
What buffer do you have in there currently?
My take on this subject is, I'd rather have the 14.5 barrel, as it allows for better maneuverability in tight quarters i.e. CQB.
14.5 BCM SOCOM, A5 Buffer system. Perfect.
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/trixiebud/SOCOM2_zps357d77e9.jpg
Not sure how the BATFE would feel about that.
-Jax
Unless I'm mistaken, requiring a tool for removal is the criteria for being considered permanent.
Unless I'm mistaken, requiring a tool for removal is the criteria for being considered permanent.
I was referring to the silver solder in the other guys post. To make the ATFr's happy it can't just be some silver solder from Radio Shack. It must be 1100 degree solder if one goes that route. From the ATF's website. Chapter 2 'What Makes an NFA Weapon. I don't have the link b/c it goes straight to PDF. Google ATF permanent muzzle device and it will give you this:
http://i907.photobucket.com/albums/ac279/jaxman7/Screenshot_2013-04-28-01-12-22_zpsd50a35fb.png
Also I remember a thread from way back where Randall/AR15barrels.com said he had removed many muzzle devices that were permed w/solder and he took them off with only a wrench.
-Jax
14.5 BCM SOCOM, A5 Buffer system. Perfect.
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb201/trixiebud/SOCOM2_zps357d77e9.jpg
That looks very similar, except the stock and magazine, to what I carried in Afghanistan.
To the OP, I have tried several of the routes you are looking at. All of my new builds are 16" mid length, M4 cut, M4 extractor spring and buffer, and H2 buffer. Personally, I also like a dissipator front sight with a Daniel Defense A1 rear sight. It makes for a real KISS layout.
The Army with the 14.5 because it is as short as you can get and still get what the Army wanted ballistics wise.
However, if you want to perm a muzzle device use silver solder (like the gunsmith type from Brownells) and a MAPP torch. MAPP will get hot enough (3500F and up depending on the torch). If you have never done this work before practice on some threaded rod, or send it to a pro.
greeneggsandsam
04-28-13, 10:33
I'm about 99% sure that the gas ports are the same between 14.5" and 16" so you should be fine.
What buffer do you have in there currently?
Currently stock H buffer. should it be fine?
jonconsiglio
04-28-13, 10:40
Currently stock H buffer. should it be fine?
The gas port is the same for 16" and 14.5" carbine gas systems. An H buffer will work, an H2 might be a good choice with hot ammo. I run an H in my BCM 14.5" midlength. Cutting shouldn't affect anything, just have it done right. Marvin at Nefarious Arms comes to mind.
For reference, issued Colt 14.5" rifles have an H buffer, the new SOCOM barreled M4A1's will have the H2 from what I understand. I'm sure the H2 is based on the A1 being full auto and not select fire.
In my opinion, the Vltor A5 is one of the best choices for carbine has systems. I'd look into that if you have the time or cash available. It really smooths out a 14.5" or 16" carbine.
A 14.5" with a permed MD is a pain in the arse, I've decided that mine should be 16" mid-lengths unless they are SBRs.
I had both 14.5" and 16" Colts both with carbine gas systems and I couldn't tell them apart when firing. The only thing I could tell is that the 14.5" caused me hassles when I wanted to change anything like the rail or muzzle device, and had lower muzzle velocity with a round that relies heavily on velocity for it's terminal performance.
I wouldn't buy either of the OP's two options, and would get a DD 16" mid length instead.
Cameron
gesundheit
04-28-13, 20:51
14.5 BCM SOCOM, A5 Buffer system. Perfect.
Are you running carbine or midlength gas system on your setup?
I did search on the BCM website for 14.5 SOCOM barrel specs but it didn't give indication on which gas system it is suited for.
Are you running carbine or midlength gas system on your setup?
I did search on the BCM website for 14.5 SOCOM barrel specs but it didn't give indication on which gas system it is suited for.
Thats a carbine gas system. You can tell based on the FSB location.
I was referring to the silver solder in the other guys post. To make the ATFr's happy it can't just be some silver solder from Radio Shack. It must be 1100 degree solder if one goes that route. From the ATF's website. Chapter 2 'What Makes an NFA Weapon. I don't have the link b/c it goes straight to PDF. Google ATF permanent muzzle device and it will give you this:
http://i907.photobucket.com/albums/ac279/jaxman7/Screenshot_2013-04-28-01-12-22_zpsd50a35fb.png
Also I remember a thread from way back where Randall/AR15barrels.com said he had removed many muzzle devices that were permed w/solder and he took them off with only a wrench.
-Jax
Thanks for the education. Seriously
gesundheit
04-29-13, 00:45
Thats a carbine gas system. You can tell based on the FSB location.
Thank you. I think I will have my next rifle in this config. Now only to find a place to get the VLTOR A5 Buffer system.
Are you running carbine or midlength gas system on your setup?
I did search on the BCM website for 14.5 SOCOM barrel specs but it didn't give indication on which gas system it is suited for.
Yep... as Buckjay said.. it's a milspec, carbine upper. Seems SO LONG after running 11.5 and 10.5 uppers lately. :p
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