Random Tavor observations

[dorchester]

There, on the gunshop rack, is a Tavor. Price tag $1764.95. I know that I can always just consider this an investment if I decide not to keep it, so I bought it. I know this business has no more in stock so to prevent them being swamped with phone calls I'll leave their name out of the conversation. So, Tavors are out there and you don't have to pay insane prices. Sometimes.

Any evaluation has to start with an acceptance that ANYTHING other than an AR will be heavier, more complicated, and/or less accurate than an AR. The Stoner gas system/platform is a marvelous feat of engineering in those realms and is part of why they have lasted in service so long. Looking forward to range time very soon.

A few random impressions:

1) Heavier: 7.9 pounds empty with no optics/lights. We knew that going in.

2) Balance with optics, loaded mag, etc is butt heavy but not too bad. Much better than the AUG I ditched in the late '80s in that respect.

3) Ergonomics/engineering thought that went into this is to a very high standard. Many odd parts to make the bullpup design work well. However, this is just a comment not a criticism.

4) Trigger pull is long but, once again, much better than the AUG. Workable.

5) My aluminum and PMAGS free fall eject, nice. Except for a 20 rd PMAG. Odd...

6) The open trigger guard design seems fine from a safe handling viewpoint, I was a little concerned about that.

7) Backup irons, very basic in function. Considering the reliability of Aimpoint and equivalent products, no factor for me. You can always place a set of MBUS sights on the rail if you care.

8) Magazine release lever appears exposed to unintentionally ejecting the magazine. My limited handling seems to alleviate that concern so far.

9) A note with the gun comments that magazines and muzzle devices used with the gun must be American made for the rifle to remain legal under 922r rules. No biggee there.

10) The supplied magazine does look like an slightly odd copy of a Magpul.

11) The safety isn't as easy for me to engage as an AR that has ambi controls would be (I like to use my trigger finger to engage the safety, will go back to using the thumb for both directions), otherwise good.

12) The accessory rail above the right foregrip is canted at a 45 degree angle, this causes issues with the way I like my flashlight to be mounted. The WML style light works OK if you have largish hands (10.5 glove size or larger).

Anything else, particularly accuracy evaluation will have to wait for the range.

[Littlelebowski]

"I'd rather be lucky than good" some old Naval Aviator told me once. Yesterday,I was standing in line to pick up a shotgun from the gunsmith at a local shop. I look up. There, on the rack, is a Tavor. Price tag $1764.95. I know that I can always just consider this an investment if I decide not to keep it, so I bought it. I know this business has no more in stock so to prevent them being swamped with phone calls I'll leave their name out of the conversation. So, Tavors are out there and you don't have to pay insane prices. Sometimes.

Any evaluation has to start with an acceptance that ANYTHING other than an AR will be heavier, more complicated, and/or less accurate than an AR. The Stoner gas system/platform is a marvelous feat of engineering in those realms and is part of why they have lasted in service so long. Looking forward to range time very soon.

A few random impressions:

1) Heavier: 7.9 pounds empty with no optics/lights. We knew that going in.

2) Balance with optics, loaded mag, etc is butt heavy but not too bad. Much better than the AUG I ditched in the late '80s in that respect.

3) Ergonomics/engineering thought that went into this is to a very high standard. Many odd parts to make the bullpup design work well. However, this is just a comment not a criticism.

4) Trigger pull is long but, once again, much better than the AUG. Workable.

5) My aluminum and PMAGS free fall eject, nice. Except for a 20 rd PMAG. Odd...

6) The open trigger guard design seems fine from a safe handling viewpoint, I was a little concerned about that.

7) Backup irons, very basic in function. Considering the reliability of Aimpoint and equivalent products, no factor for me. You can always place a set of MBUS sights on the rail if you care.

8) Magazine release lever appears exposed to unintentionally ejecting the magazine. My limited handling seems to alleviate that concern so far.

9) A note with the gun comments that magazines and muzzle devices used with the gun must be American made for the rifle to remain legal under 922r rules. No biggee there.

10) The supplied magazine does look like an slightly odd copy of a Magpul. 1

1) The safety isn't as easy for me to engage as an AR that has ambi controls would be (I like to use my trigger finger to engage the safety, will go back to the thumb), otherwise good.

12) The accessory rail above the right foregrip is canted at a 45 degree angle, this causes issues with the way I like my flashlight to be mounted. The WML style light works OK if you have largish hands (10.5 glove size or larger). Anything else, particularly accuracy evaluation will have to wait for the range.

For the common good.

[dorchester]

Thanks! I really should have taken a proper typing class at some time...

[VIP3R 237]

Great price on yours, I'm still searching for mine.

Let us know when you go out and put some rounds through it.

[Ick]

I enjoyed reading your commets about the TAVOR. Gritty and real, perfect.

[RearwardAssist]

For the common good.

Thank you.

On topic thanks for the initial impressions, without handling one myself this is on my short list of weapons I am interested in picking up, hopefully I can get some trigger time myself. Looking forward to an AAR.

[darr3239]

That's the best price I have seen yet. Hopefully Grant will match it!

Here's a video of a guy doing quick mag changes. It appears if one practices a little, the Tavor can be quicker than an AR.

http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?topic=2561.0

[WillBrink]

Thanks! I really should have taken a proper typing class at some time...

It's called the "return" button bro. :D

Use of said button does wonders for avoiding the wall O text syndrome.

[dorchester]

Good day at the range. All good news.

1) Shooting 62gr Mk318 ammo for accuracy. Nine shot group. I don't like 5 or even (God help us) 3 round groups for this purpose. It was supposed to be 10 but I can't count... 2 3/8 inches edge to edge at 100 yards. This was the best result, however most of the grouping I did was under 2.75 inches. I was not ultra-slow firing either. The barrel heating up with a steady rate of fire appeared to be a non-issue today. I used a 2 MOA T-1 and 3 power magnifier for this test and the smearing of the dot image on the mini Aimpoints hurts ultimate precision. I suspect a more conventional reticle would allow me to do better. Nevertheless, quite acceptable performance with standard issue style ammo.

2) The trigger has a longish pull with a bit of stacking pressure just before the break. It is workable as long as you aren't the designated marksman type. I know the IDF has a DMR version of the rifle, I wonder if that trigger is special or tuned. Short answer, this is not the mushy crap that my AUG had back in the day, it's just fine for a general issue piece. I tried to use a Lyman electronic scale but the readings were way high for how the trigger "felt". I suspect the long take up is not measured well by this type scale. It certainly is a tougher trigger to get an ND with...

3) The concern I had about unintentionally ejecting the magazine really looks bogus. The fact that this has been a mass issue piece for a long time now seemed like a clue but it is nice to have that confirmed. I was alone on the range, so I could handle the weapon with loaded and empty magazines inserted pretty much as I wanted. (I always followed basic safe handling practices in any event.) At no time did I pop out a magazine without meaning to. Carrying the weapon "at the balance" between the pistol grip and mag well was very comfortable and did not depress the release lever at all. However, I wouldn't like the idea of that being accepted procedure in a crowd of people. The muzzle would cover everyone much too easily. I never did like carry handles on FALs or M-16s either.

4) Completely reliable. I field stripped the action and lubed liberally with some Benelli lube I had, then went shooting. Tested Mk318 5.56 (approx 110 rds), Hornady 55gr .223 V-Max (20rds), M193 5.56 (20rds), Hornady 75 gr TAP 5.56 (20rds), and PPU 75 gr match .223 (20rds). I wanted at least 5 rounds of each to lock the bolt to the rear with the rifle held without shouldering the buttplate. Except for the PPU all locked the bolt back with multiple magazines used first and every try. Then the PPU started locking back the bolt reliably (maybe the gun breaking in ?). No failures to feed, extract, or eject at any time with lots of different mags (mostly PMAGS) tested. The rifle does not appear to be ammo or pressure sensitive at all.

5) Recoil compared to a BCM middy with A5 receiver extension system. Not enough difference to really call one. The Tavor did "bounce " more when the bolt went back into battery. I did most of the shooting from a rest so this needs another look.

6) My 30rd PMAGS ejected drop free except one. Oddly, it's one that drops free nicely from the BCM when most don't. All aluminum mags of any size or source dropped free nicely. E-mags work great.

7) Rifle comes in at 8pounds 5 ounces with a T-1 Aimpoint and WML light and without magnifier, magazine, sling, or ammo.

8) The bolt release is really fast and easy to use during a mag change. Very neat idea.

9) Who needs an SBR now? Not me.

[d90king]

Good day at the range. All good news.

1) Shooting 62gr Mk318 ammo for accuracy. Nine shot group. I don't like 5 or even (God help us) 3 round groups for this purpose. It was supposed to be 10 but I can't count... 2 3/8 inches edge to edge at 100 yards. This was the best result, however most of the grouping I did was under 2.75 inches. I was not ultra-slow firing either. The barrel heating up with a steady rate of fire appeared to be a non-issue today. I used a 2 MOA T-1 and 3 power magnifier for this test and the smearing of the dot image on the mini Aimpoints hurts ultimate precision. I suspect a more conventional reticle would allow me to do better. Nevertheless, quite acceptable performance with standard issue style ammo.

2) The trigger has a longish pull with a bit of stacking pressure just before the break. It is workable as long as you aren't the designated marksman type. I know the IDF has a DMR version of the rifle, I wonder if the trigger is special or tuned. Short answer, this is not the mushy crap that my AUG had back in the day, it's just fine for a general issue piece.

3) The concern I had about unintentionally ejecting the magazine really looks bogus. The fact that this has been a mass issue piece for a long time now seemed like a clue but it is nice to have that confirmed. I was alone on the range, so I could handle the weapon with loaded and empty magazines inserted pretty much as I wanted. (I always followed basic safe handling practices in any event.) At no time did I pop out a magazine without meaning to. Carrying the weapon "at the balance" between the pistol grip and mag well was very comfortable and did not depress the release lever at all. However, I wouldn't like the idea of that being accepted procedure in a crowd of people. The muzzle would cover everyone much too easily. I never did like carry handles on FALs or M-16s either.

4) Completely reliable. I field stripped the action and lubed liberally with some Benelli lube I had, then went shooting. Tested Mk318 5.56 (approx 110 rds), Hornady 55gr .223 V-Max (20rds), M193 5.56 (20rds), Hornady 75 gr TAP 5.56 (20rds), and PPU 75 gr match .223 (20rds). I wanted at least 5 rounds of each to lock the bolt to the rear with the rifle held without shouldering the buttplate. Except for the PPU all locked the bolt back with multiple magazines used first and every try. Then the PPU started locking back the bolt reliably (maybe the gun breaking in ?). No failures to feed, extract, or eject at any time with lots of different mags (mostly PMAGS) tested. The rifle does not appear to be ammo or pressure sensitive at all.

5) Recoil compared to a BCM middy with A5 receiver extension system. Not enough difference to really call one. The Tavor did "bounce " more when the bolt went back into battery. I did most of the shooting from a rest so this needs another look.

6) My 30rd PMAGS ejected drop free except one. Oddly, it's one that drops free nicely from the BCM when most don't. All aluminum mags of any size or source dropped free nicely.

7) Rifle comes in at 8pounds 3 ounces with a T-1 Aimpoint and WML light and without magnifier, magazine, sling, or ammo.

8) The bolt release is really fast and easy to use during a mag change. Very neat idea.

9) Who needs an SBR now? Not me.

The enter button is your long lost friend. ;)

[dorchester]

Okay, I'll take the hint and figure this out once and for all. Fortunately, I don't make a living writing. Thanks.

But I am improving...

ps. I noted no issues with hot gases blowing out the side of the rifle. This used to drive me crazy on a CX-4 I shot. Ow!

[Ick]

9) Who needs an SBR now? Not me.

Well said.

[Vitor]

I agree that the Tavor will be able to compete quite well against SBRs. Better ballistics, less muzzle blast and no special paper work required while remain quite compact. That's the intended magic of bullpups.

[VIP3R 237]

I agree that the Tavor will be able to compete quite well against SBRs. Better ballistics, less muzzle blast and no special paper work required while remain quite compact. That's the intended magic of bullpups.

Now we just need Geissele to develop a trigger for these and then we're golden.

[twistedcomrade]

Nice review dorchester. How long did it take you to clean your Tavor up after the trip to the range?

[calvin118]

After three range trips with my Tavor, I am ready to offer some observations:

Pros:

100% reliable so far.

Works well with Gen 2 p-mags, though they do not drop free. Gen 3 pmags run well and drop free.

No issues with the mag release, which is very well done.

The bolt release is an excellent innovation and very fast.

Very short OAL.

Cons:

Despite what some others have reported, I cannot switch shoulders without brass hitting me in the face- even with hot loads.

While the trigger might not be as bad as an AUG, it is still very heavy. Much more difficult to manipulate at speed than an AR trigger. While it may be better than most bullpups, I am definitely not a fan.

The Tavor is not only heavier, but also a lot bulkier than an AR. While the short length is certainly a benefit indoors and around vehicles, the added weight and bulk is a significant detriment in open areas.

The Tavor is more difficult to shoot prone off the magazine than an AR due to the non-adjustable stock and rearward magazine.

Although the recoil is not bad on the Tavor, I experience a surprising amount of muzzle rise and side to side movement. I have tried numerous grips and stances on three different occasions, and at this point I am confident that it is not just 'familiarity'.

Between the increased sight picture disruption and difficult trigger, I cannot come anywhere close to replicating my AR performance with the Tavor in timed drills emphasizing rapid splits and transitions at close range.

Others may disagree, but I would hands down take a well built 12.5" AR SBR over a Tavor for just about any application. Modern defensive ammo largely negates the importance of barrel length for terminal ballistics. The heavy trigger and decreased inherent accuracy of the Tavor negate the external ballistic advantage of the 16" barrel at longer ranges. Finally, I do not experience any issues with excess noise or blast with a 12.5" barrel and flash hider, though any shorter and I start to notice. The Tavor retains a slight advantage in OAL, but that benefit is far outweighed by the costs that come along with it.

When I got the Tavor, I hoped just like everyone else that this would be a solution that allowed us to keep the benefits of the SBR without a lot of the inconveniences. Unfortunately, this is not the case- at least for me.

[dorchester]

Briefly, the cleaning kit that comes with the Tavor is very complete. It even has a "bottle brush" thingy for wiping out dust from the insides of the rifle. My one range visit consisted of approx 200 rds with a well lubricated weapon. The bolt group was really pretty clean afterwards, compared to an AR system certainly. I have not cleaned it yet to see just how dirty it will get with more use. Presently, this is just a range gun for me.

I must defer to Calvin118 on handling and other issues. I've only put a very limited amount of time behind the rifle so far and that was mostly bench shooting. I think he makes many good points. I certainly haven't parked my 16 inch AR yet. I perhaps have more hope than he for the Tavor as an SBR replacement. The legal issues, ballistic penalties, and general crankiness of chopped ARs can be minimized but this is a pretty darned short rifle with full sized performance and reliability delivered in the bargain. If comparing to an M4gery of some sort, I would go for the lighter weight, better balance, and trigger of the AR also. I'm looking forward to learning more.