View Full Version : Live round, stuck in chamber.
LWRC M6A2, firing suppressed. Fired one 20 rd mag, slowfire with FC brass cased GI.
My Buddy decides to shoot some grey, non lacquered TULA out of it.
Fired 15 rds...then a round partially chambered and STUCK in the chamber. Tried tapping it out with a GI cleaning rod...It IS stuck.
Soaked the chamber end and through the barrel with KROIL about an hour ago. Figured that would do it. NO joy. Have a GI rod and tried to tap it out with both a 16 oz hammer and a lead faced hammer. NOT pounding but hitting it enough that it should come out.
ANY ideas??
Suwannee Tim
04-20-13, 19:53
You could take it apart, I don't know if that will really help. I think you are going to have to beat it out. WARNING! If and when you do beat it out assume the cartridge will fire propelling the rod out the muzzle and the case out the breech. If it happens both will have enough velocity to kill anyone standing in the way so don't stand in the way. Orient the upper receiver to shield yourself from fragments and wear safety glasses. When I have a bore obstruction issue that will not clear easily I use a piece of drill rod available from McMaster Carr using the largest size that will fit the bore which is 13/64 for .224 bore. Buy a 3 foot piece and cut it to a reasonable length, say 20 or 24 inches. Cleaning rods are not the best thing for pounding out obstructions. BTW it is probably a bit of metal that has the cartridge wedged in, either from the previous cartridge or less likely from a broken part in the gun.
Bolt is short 1/2" or more from closing on the round, so tough to take it apart.
https://www.m4carbine.net/gtsearch.php?cx=003496919632624929056%3Adhiwgm0hbaa&cof=FORID%3A10&ie=UTF-8&q=Mortar+round&siteurl=www.m4carbine.net%2Fshowthread.php%3Fp%3D1618717%23post1618717&ref=www.m4carbine.net%2Fsearch.php%3Fsearchid%3D5791904&ss=7463j7708143j12
If you can get the bolt back far enough, you can bang it out from the muzzle end with cleaning rods. No chance of it going off doing that.
I can lock the bolt back so the bolt is not touching the round.
I'd hoped the KROIL would have done it!
I have NEVER had ANY case stuck in a chamber like this one. And of course it had to be a LIVE round!
twistedcomrade
04-20-13, 20:19
I take it you tried pulling on the charging handle while banging the rifle on a bench, buttstock first? That worked for me with a live, stuck rnd in my Sig 716. Make sure to collapse the stock all the way. Sorry if this was the first thing you tried. Why did you let your bud shoot that crapp through your rifle anyway?
Just figured out the WHY.
It's a Hornady, steel cased 5.45x39 round.
Coal Dragger
04-20-13, 20:34
:suicide::suicide:
Just figured out the WHY.
It's a Hornady, steel cased 5.45x39 round.
:suicide:
Well looks like your "buddy" needs a good punch in the dick.
At least you now know why it is stuck and didn't chamber...
Be very careful. People have been killed tapping them out, there are several mentions of 5.45 cases stuck in this thread.......
https://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-45027.html
:suicide::suicide:
:suicide:
Well looks like your "buddy" needs a good punch in the dick.
At least you now know why it is stuck and didn't chamber...
Yeah a "Good news...BAD news" deal for sure.
My fault...relatively new shooter...I should have watched him more closely. The 5.45 rds were on the bench and I had mentioned they were DIFFERENT than 5.56 and we were done with the AK-74...moving to the AR.
NOW to figure WHO to get to remove the round. And HOW?
Just figured out the WHY.
It's a Hornady, steel cased 5.45x39 round.
You're not supposed to do that.
jaybirdritenour2
04-20-13, 20:45
Can you get in there with needle nose pliers and use the rim to pull it out. Or even pry it out with them? Just be careful.
We had this happen at a shoot of ours, took Ned at Michigun to get it out with special tools. Good luck, a live one stuck like that can very dangerous.
I'm pretty sure he posted about it here, https://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-45027.html
Jeff
I was kindly pointed in the direction of an old 2010 thread. A gunsmith possibly..."Ned Christiansen" posted that he ended up making a special fixture and using a slide hammer to pound it out!!
I feel SO STUPID! I so , absolutely, know better...but still ****ed up. Should have TOTALLY separated the different rounds instead of simply verbalizing it. Never to old to learn I guess. :mad:
Since it's a 5.45 can we assume the rim is protruding from the chamber a bit, maybe enough to grab with anything?
I was kindly pointed in the direction of an old 2010 thread. A gunsmith possibly..."Christianson" posted that he ended up making a special fixture and using a slide hammer to pound it out!!
I feel SO STUPID! I so , absolutely, know better...but still ****ed up. Should have TOTALLY separated the different rounds instead of simply verbalizing it. Never to old to learn I guess. :mad:
Nothing wrong with making a mistake bud as long as you learn from it.
-Jax
Since it's a 5.45 can we assume the rim is protruding from the chamber a bit, maybe enough to grab with anything?
I don't want to screw up the rim...probably needs to be intact to pull the case out.
I'm hoping a Smith will chime in before Monday with an idea. Monday I'll call LWRC and see what they say.
FN in MT
Using a hammer to knock out a stuck case does not work very well. Instead, drop or toss the rod down the bore until it knocks it out. Keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction and place the butt against something solid.
Using a hammer usually results in the energy being wasted by the rod flexing. Tossing or even just dropping the rod works much better. A one piece rod with a heavy handle works very well. It's what I've used over the years to remove a variety of stuck cases. I have even used a short piece of drill rod when I didn't have a cleaning rod handy
Good luck bud, keep us posted as to how you finally return your gun to working order.
Apparently after doing some reading there is a company that makes a tool for this situation
http://www.compasslake.com/live_round_extractor.htm
I have no idea of the effectiveness or availability, but perhaps it will give you an additional method of attack in seeing at how it works etc.. Perhaps Iraqgunz will be along soon, he would be the guy to ask when it comes to those " WTF do I do now" moments with ARs.......
Professional help is probably the way to go.........
Good luck, let us know what happens and stay safe......
Apparently after doing some reading there is a company that makes a tool for this situation
http://www.compasslake.com/live_round_extractor.htm
I have no idea of the effectiveness or availability, but perhaps it will give you an additional method of attack in seeing at how it works etc.. Perhaps Iraqgunz will be along soon, he would be the guy to ask when it comes to those " WTF do I do now" moments with ARs.......
Professional help is probably the way to go.........
Good luck, let us know what happens and stay safe......
The 5.45x39 rim size is larger than the .222/.204/ .223 etc. So probably not going to work. I am going to contact them though.
The other issue...unable to get it apart. when I **** up...I don't fool around. I go ALL the way.
Try pushing both receiver pins out, then working the upper off the lower. Once you get that done it will be much easier to remove the stuck cartridge. If you cannot separate the upper from the lower, insert an empty mag to help keep the bolt locked back.
Again, drop or toss a cleaning rid down the barrel to knock out the stuck case. Hammering does not work very well. It will take a few tosses to knock it out
Coal Dragger
04-20-13, 23:05
If all else fails, if you have the right tools you can take the barrel off and work on it outside of the upper receiver to get better access to the problem.
Ned Christiansen
04-20-13, 23:18
Contact me by Email, I'll loan ya the tool. Maybe I need to start offering these.
Ned Christiansen
04-21-13, 09:48
Here's a refresher on why this is so dangerous. I have two credible stories of very stuck rounds firing while being pounded out with a rod from the muzzle. The first one came from a guy who was there (benchrest match, years ago), and, coincidentally, this story was retold to me a year ago by the guy (another former benchrester) who bought the rifle that'd had the stuck round. In that case the man's wife was killed as she steadied the rifle at the rear. Bolt out, the man was pounding out the stuck round when it fired-- the case as a projectile came out the back and killed her.
The other story-- the provenance and details have grown small in the distance but I remember being convinced of its veracity. I'll be doing a class with Jeff Chudwin very soon and I'll ask him for a refresher on it.
This tool I made came about with a little embarrassment on my part. I had just had an article published in SWAT Magazine titled, "5.45X39: What Can It Do For You?". You can get an electronic back issue on their site BTW. In it I said something like, a shooter need not be concerned about having AR's in 5.45 and 5.56 and accidentally mixing ammo, because the shoulder length of the 5.56 is much longer and the case smaller in diameter so there is no way you chamber 5.56 in a 5.45, and if you accidentally get one in there it'll easily fall free. And as the 5.45 is larger in diameter, it will not chamber in a 5.56 (true), and won't get wedged in so bad it can't be removed with a screwdriver (not true).
It was like the day after this went to press that this 5.56 AR walks into my shop with a 5.45 round hopelessly stuck. I immediately wrote to SWAT about the experience and they published my experience with it and warning about pounding out live rounds.
Contact me by Email, I'll loan ya the tool. Maybe I need to start offering these.
E Mail on the way.
FN in MT
Here's a refresher on why this is so dangerous. I have two credible stories of very stuck rounds firing while being pounded out with a rod from the muzzle. The first one came from a guy who was there (benchrest match, years ago), and, coincidentally, this story was retold to me a year ago by the guy (another former benchrester) who bought the rifle that'd had the stuck round. In that case the man's wife was killed as she steadied the rifle at the rear. Bolt out, the man was pounding out the stuck round when it fired-- the case as a projectile came out the back and killed her.
What a horror story! My heart just breaks for people that have to live with a story like that. I can't even imagine. No wonder he sold the gun. Poor guy.
Be careful extracting that round!
Update to my stupidity;
Contacted Ned and he is going to send me out the tool to remove the round. You just have to love the shooting fraternity! Taking care of each other.
I'll do a few digitals this next week when the tool arrives and I get to REMOVING my mistake.
ONE GOOD thing HAS come of this. My buddy feels so bad about this...He's agreed to come over to help me with some upcoming PAINTING as penance! LOL.
FN in MT
Take your lesson to heart, both of you. One gun, one ammo, on the bench at any given time. I finished teaching a range safety officer class yesterday and it is one of my main topics of what I want my RSO's at our range to keep an eye out for.
Update to my stupidity;
Contacted Ned and he is going to send me out the tool to remove the round. You just have to love the shooting fraternity! Taking care of each other.
I'll do a few digitals this next week when the tool arrives and I get to REMOVING my mistake.
ONE GOOD thing HAS come of this. My buddy feels so bad about this...He's agreed to come over to help me with some upcoming PAINTING as penance! LOL.
FN in MT
Does anyone have a link to this tool they could post?
steyrman13
04-21-13, 15:30
Here's a refresher on why this is so dangerous. I have two credible stories of very stuck rounds firing while being pounded out with a rod from the muzzle. The first one came from a guy who was there (benchrest match, years ago), and, coincidentally, this story was retold to me a year ago by the guy (another former benchrester) who bought the rifle that'd had the stuck round. In that case the man's wife was killed as she steadied the rifle at the rear. Bolt out, the man was pounding out the stuck round when it fired-- the case as a projectile came out the back and killed her.
The other story-- the provenance and details have grown small in the distance but I remember being convinced of its veracity. I'll be doing a class with Jeff Chudwin very soon and I'll ask him for a refresher on it.
I mean no disrespect by this at all. I am skeptical somewhat about how it actually happened. How can hitting the bullet from the muzzle end with bolt removed somehow make it ignite a primer? The most I could see is seating the bullet further in the neck and creating a bit more tension on the shoulder/chamber contact. One caveat. A brass rod or wooden dowel would be better for this to alleviate sparks. As well as keeping body parts from either end in case it did fire
is there anyway to deactivate the round? like getting a drill and drilling the primer or using a tool that can pull out the primer. i would think that disassembly might be the way to go.
I mean no disrespect by this at all. I am skeptical somewhat about how it actually happened. How can hitting the bullet from the muzzle end with bolt removed somehow make it ignite a primer? The most I could see is seating the bullet further in the neck and creating a bit more tension on the shoulder/chamber contact. One caveat. A brass rod or wooden dowel would be better for this to alleviate sparks. As well as keeping body parts from either end in case it did fire
Quite a few years back when I was on the Helena PD we had a guy who was leaning over and DRILLING a hole (WHY??) in an undetonated 40mm grenade round he had found on the MT Guard firing range. The round went off...basically covering the interior of the garage WITH the driller.
ALL I could think about when we were initially trying to TAP the round out with a Rod.
steyrman13
04-21-13, 17:17
I can see the drilling being a problem such as sparks, and depending on what part he was drilling, but tapping on the opposite end of the case from the primer i dont see how that could be a problem. Thing about a kinetic bullet puller. Noone is scared to be hitting a live round with it?
1_click_off
04-21-13, 18:45
Maybe try putting the rifle in a deep freezer for a hour or 2. May loosen the case with contraction of the metals.
DIRTMAN556
04-21-13, 20:22
Wow this is pretty wild! Especially everyone else's experience on the matter. Good luck, be safe, and how about some images.
Ned Christiansen
04-21-13, 21:32
Steyrman13, I believe what happened was that the powder became so compressed that it went through the flash hole, and impact from the hammering of the rod, transferred though the powder, fired the primer.
And certainly no disrespect taken, definitly not something we see every day and all explanations are but theory..... although I intend to test it one day.
I think KROIL may have come to my rescue.
I have had the chamber soaked in KROIL since yesterday.
Had the idea to kill the primer then try to give tapping the round out another try.
I used a #55 drill on a pin holder and by twisting the pin holder I easily (though SLOWLY) drilled through the edge of the primer cup. I then soaked the primer in KROIL for a few hours.
AMAZINGLY with a few good taps that damned Russian round came out!!
Thanks to ALL for the suggestions. Especially to Ned Cristianson for the offer to loan his removal :Dtool.
FN in MT
montanadave
04-21-13, 23:46
Glad to hear you cleared it without incident, injury, or damage. But I wouldn't tell your buddy until the painting's finished. ;)
Glad to hear you cleared it without incident, injury, or damage. But I wouldn't tell your buddy until the painting's finished. ;)
Ha Ha! EXACTLY what my thoughts were! Going to play this one to the MAX. I hate painting.
Ned Christiansen
04-22-13, 09:19
I picture you in full bomb gear trying to turn that little drill while in the background your buddy yells, "Hey, I need another gallon of paint, where'd ya put it?"
Glad you got it done without incident. Pics of the case maybe?
Great job getting it out safely and another thanks to Ned for the generous offer.
I picture you in full bomb gear trying to turn that little drill while in the background your buddy yells, "Hey, I need another gallon of paint, where'd ya put it?"
Glad you got it done without incident. Pics of the case maybe?
Thanks again Ned. Your a true Gentleman.
Frankly the case in unremarkable. Other than the bullet jammed down deeper into the case.
FN in MT
Ned Christiansen
04-23-13, 07:56
This is the first one that came to me:
http://i368.photobucket.com/albums/oo125/NedChristiansen/11b.jpg (http://s368.photobucket.com/user/NedChristiansen/media/11b.jpg.html)
Bullet telescoped into the case; further beating actually caused the cleaning rod's open end to split and telescope over the bullet; I think it may have expanded the rod to the inside of the case neck, expanding the neck and locking it in the chamber. Beat more, expand more, tight more. Like trying to push a car by the brake pedal.
Crazy Chuckster
04-23-13, 08:25
Scary stuff right there!:eek:
I screwed a short piece of adapter rod onto my GI rod...it had been ground flat and then drilled with an 1/8 drill ,1/8" or maybe less deep. It fit the bullet tip it seems. That simply pushed the bullet into the case.
I'd drilled the primer,then killed it w/KROIL. So I opened that initial hole to 1/8"+ ..allowing a lot of the powder to spill into the action.
Ned Christiansen
04-24-13, 09:01
Rethinking my statement above, I don't think there was a "lock" going on at the chamber's neck since the 5.45 round's neck would not reach the 5.56 chamber neck.
That brings back a few memories. Back in '07 a friend had that very same thing happen just as you described it. From that day forth I have sworn to never use the Russian ammo.
OP, glad you were able to rectify the situation.
Is it safe to assume that it came to you with the rod also stuck in place, or was that your...handywork. :)
Just a thought, however, wasn't drilling the primer extremely dangerous? A tiny spark or too much heat and bang. That seemed really dangerous.
Could a guy drill a drain hole in the case if it is exposed and drain or vacuum out the powder?
Just a thought, however, wasn't drilling the primer extremely dangerous? A tiny spark or too much heat and bang. That seemed really dangerous.
Could a guy drill a drain hole in the case if it is exposed and drain or vacuum out the powder?
Brass is resistant to sparking and therefore safer to do things like drill through under such circumstances. And yes, once the case is breached it can be drained, eliminating most of the danger. I say "most" because the primer, unless drilled as well, can also pose a threat and there is of course always the danger of doing permanent damage to the barrel and/or chamber if not extracted properly.
I would think the lesson learned here is "STOP, THINK, RESEARCH AND PROCEED CAUTIOUSLY"....nothing worse than getting in a hurry and making what could be a fatal mistake. Great resource here!
Cincinnatus
04-24-13, 17:29
Brass is resistant to sparking and therefore safer to do things like drill through under such circumstances. And yes, once the case is breached it can be drained, eliminating most of the danger. I say "most" because the primer, unless drilled as well, can also pose a threat and there is of course always the danger of doing permanent damage to the barrel and/or chamber if not extracted properly.
Of course, with Russian ammo, it's usually a steel case.
twistedcomrade
04-24-13, 18:20
Thanks for posting this odessy OP.
Of course, with Russian ammo, it's usually a steel case.
Yes that would be correct and is a great follow-up comment. I should have clarified it as well, but I don't shoot steel cased ammo so I suppose I have a bit of a one track mind in that regard.
Just remember to drill slowly and carefully generating as little heat and friction as possible while accomplishing the goal, this regardless of the metal.
Ned Christiansen
04-25-13, 15:49
Brass is safer to drill also because it conducts heat away from the drilling area much, much faster.
These powders actually are not super easy to ignite but I would not bet my vision and good looks on hurrying this process. I've drilled 5.45's before to make dummy rounds and never set one off but slow and easy and cringing the whole time was the approach. As seldom as it should be necessary, I'd say a guy ought to flood the process with something-- water or WD40.
Is it possible to strike the end of the barrel on something, to act as an inertia bullet puller?
Just a thought, however, wasn't drilling the primer extremely dangerous? A tiny spark or too much heat and bang. That seemed really dangerous.
I used a pin vice...basically an aluminum shaft with a collet that squeezed the pin/drill when the collar is screwed down. With a small # drill...maybe a 55 or 60. VERY tiny.
Turning the drill held in the holder with my FINGERS I drilled into the edge of the primer. I doubt I generated ANY heat. Once I had the small hole drilled I flooded the primer with KROIL.
Believe me. I was careful.
Is it possible to strike the end of the barrel on something, to act as an inertia bullet puller?
Let's rethink this idea.
This is an area where the AK shines. You can insert a tool to grab stuck cases and rectify this type of thing quite easily...in comparison. ;)
Ned Christiansen
04-25-13, 22:32
I started experimenting today with, can I get a round to fire by pounding it from the bullet end. Gonna get medieval on it over the weekend. I'll report results but
ifffg mny7 tyyp[ngh l;ook s l;ikew thji9s
you'll know I'm typing with bandaged fingers or just plain ol' stumps.
Are you talking about pounding them out by using a rod & hammer? I have found it much easier by dropping or tossing the rod down the bore and skipping the hammering part altogether
I'll report results but
ifffg mny7 tyyp[ngh l;ook s l;ikew thji9s
you'll know I'm typing with bandaged fingers or just plain ol' stumps.
That's assuming they have wireless in the hospital room or your phone will get adequate reception deep in the building. Should be ok if you have time to report from the ER (I know, I know...you'll be distracted with other things :rolleyes:) or a room with a big window though, just don't get any blood under the glass.
I started experimenting today with, can I get a round to fire by pounding it from the bullet end. Gonna get medieval on it over the weekend. I'll report results but
ifffg mny7 tyyp[ngh l;ook s l;ikew thji9s
you'll know I'm typing with bandaged fingers or just plain ol' stumps.
LMAO!!!
Fasstasheck
04-26-13, 11:44
I've always used the cleaning rode from the muzzle method... but I've never gotten the wrong caliber stuck.
Good luck, man
I've used brass rods but only for squib bullets...drill rod in the barrel makes my skin crawl. 40 years ago my Dad learned that WD40 will kill commercial primers...on a deer hunt.
Be interesting to scope the bore on that barrel just for grins...
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