View Full Version : M14 or AR-10?
How do M14s stack up against the AR-10 for high-volume reliability and overall accuracy?
m14-
-heavier then a ar10
-the "american AK" as in will pretty much operate in any environment, dirty, clean doesn't matter
-historically harder to make accurate as a ar10
-many less small parts, made to be abused
AR10-
-platform similarities between ar15 and 10 lend to ease of use
-fairly reliable if taken care of
-lighter then m1a
-parts availability is better for the most part
-lots of good factory options
i have a smith enterprises built m1a as well as a GA Precision GAP10, different strokes for different folks. The larue and LMT ar10's are REALLY nice weapons, as well as many other good factory options out there. Or build your own from the millions of aftermarket parts.
M1a's usually take someone with a little know how to build properly but they are a really fun gun and mine isn't going anywhere. pretty much two ways to skin the same cat.
Failure2Stop
04-21-13, 10:25
How do M14s stack up against the AR-10 for high-volume reliability and overall accuracy?
Are you talking modern/contemporary AR10 based rifles or older models?
Apart from that, M14 based designs are harder to mount applicable optics to and require add on cheek pieces to bring the head into position to align the eye with the optic.
GI parts have pretty much all been used up, so all M14 based designs are limited to inferior new parts as compared to what was available in the past.
Short M14 designs are nowhere near as reliable as their traditional design, and even their traditional design is nowhere nearly as accurate as most folks seem to believe.
If you want a traditional "battle rifle" I would suggest a FAL or step into the modern AR10 based designs.
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yeah a FAL is never a bad choice i know Larry is partial to them.
GI parts have pretty much all been used up, so all M14 based designs are limited to inferior new parts as compared to what was available in the past.
As you probably know you can still get original, "new" GI parts via the internet. TRW bolts, op rods, trigger groups, etc. Started a build on one but have yet to finish.
Failure2Stop
04-21-13, 10:50
As you probably know you can still get original, "new" GI parts via the internet. TRW bolts, op rods, trigger groups, etc. Started a build on one but have yet to finish.
True, but few production guns are using them, and they are not nearly as plentiful as before.
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GI parts for the M14 now bring premium prices.
Only Armalite can make an AR10 just as only Springfield Armory can make an M1A as both companies hold the respective copyrights to those names.
The M14 is possibly my favorite rifle of it's class. Rugged and accurate and simply a joy to shoot. With a standard profile barrel and a GI fiberglass stock, it's light and handles well. It was originally designed to take a scope mount and was displayed as such to make the Soviets nervous but the setup was less than ideal. The design didn't hold zero well and not at all when the mount was removed and reinstalled. It also sets up rather high which makes getting a good cheekweld rather difficult. LRB offers a more reliable solution for mounting optics but the cheekweld is still problematic. There are stocks that will give good cheekwelds, but they are heavy.
The M14 with it's original configuration stock and flash suppressor exhibits more muzzle rise than the FAL equipped with a Belgian combo device. I haven't yet fired a 308 AR, but I'm willing to bet it too is easier to control in rapid fire than the M14. Compared to a properly sorted out FAL, the M14 needs a little more attention. The roller bearing on the M14 bolt must be kept packed with grease and the shooter needs to pay attention to the pressure needed to lock the trigger guard in place. The biggest item on the FAL is the shooter needs to pay attention to the setting of it's gas adjustment and keep the gas plug clean so it can be easily removed for cleaning.
If the shooter wants a good solid rifle to be used with iron sights and doesn't mind a little extra special care, the M14 is a damn fine choice. But if the shooter wants a rifle that will easily accept optics, they should choose an AR type
I hadn't even considered the FAL. I was wondering what would be better for shooting all day at the range and then slaying pigs all night. I know accuracy isn't a huge issue at practical pig shooting ranges, that is why I mentioned the range portion :). Something that could pull home defense duty in a tight crunch wouldn't hurt either.
Also, I am good with iron sights, but I much prefer optics. Maybe 3 or 4x.
Littlelebowski
04-21-13, 11:36
If you want a traditional "battle rifle" I would suggest a FAL or step into the modern AR10 based designs.
This. An M14 is a money pit in that it will cost you a lot to make it perform as well as a lower tier DPMS .308.
Failure2Stop
04-21-13, 12:02
I hadn't even considered the FAL. I was wondering what would be better for shooting all day at the range and then slaying pigs all night. I know accuracy isn't a huge issue at practical pig shooting ranges, that is why I mentioned the range portion :). Something that could pull home defense duty in a tight crunch wouldn't hurt either.
Also, I am good with iron sights, but I much prefer optics. Maybe 3 or 4x.
If you want a semi auto 7.62 and can't justify the usual high entry price, the M&P 10 is pretty decent. It's not going to run with the big boys as far as precision, but it will give you more practical use than an obsolete design will.
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SCAR 17. Designed for 7.62, fully ambidextrous, designed for optics.
H
If you want a semi auto 7.62 and can't justify the usual high entry price, the M&P 10 is pretty decent. It's not going to run with the big boys as far as precision, but it will give you more practical use than an obsolete design will
I very much want a MOE M&P10. Getting into a good FAL would cost less at this point. I think the M&P10 would be more versatile
This. An M14 is a money pit in that it will cost you a lot to make it perform as well as a lower tier DPMS .308.
If you mean money pit to shoot itty bitty teeny tiny groups, you're right. I have one with a couple minor NM tweaks, the other in the standard configuration. Both shoot well enough (the first shoots 1 MOA 10 round groups from the prone position with good ammo, the other stays around 2.5 MOA with ball ammo) and have remained reliable in all the years I've had them and they are not babied. I haven't had to spend any money other than the usual PM (clean & lube)
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/All%20American/DSC_0158.jpg (http://s115.photobucket.com/user/SgtSongDog/media/All%20American/DSC_0158.jpg.html)
I hadn't even considered the FAL. I was wondering what would be better for shooting all day at the range and then slaying pigs all night. I know accuracy isn't a huge issue at practical pig shooting ranges, that is why I mentioned the range portion :). Something that could pull home defense duty in a tight crunch wouldn't hurt either.
Also, I am good with iron sights, but I much prefer optics. Maybe 3 or 4x.
A FAL is easier to mount optics to than the M14 but not as easy as an AR type. I don't find the recoil of FALs or M14s to be unpleasant and don't mind shooting them all day- well, at least not back when ammo could be had for a nickle or even when it was fifteen cents a round!
A Para FAL with an 18" barrel is very handy
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/Para%20Mods/DSC_0077.jpg (http://s115.photobucket.com/user/SgtSongDog/media/Para%20Mods/DSC_0077.jpg.html)
It's a tossup whether I like the Para or my StG-58 better!
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/StG58/DSC_0208.jpg (http://s115.photobucket.com/user/SgtSongDog/media/StG58/DSC_0208.jpg.html)
I say take a good hard look at the M&P10. I think it has good potential. I have not shot one yet, so I cannot give any better recommendation than that other to say I am pulling together my money and selling off a few items to buy one
PS- I just wanted to add that I recognize that the AR type rifles are inherently more accurate than the M14 and the FAL
Littlelebowski
04-21-13, 12:57
Take a look at my blog for an ongoing writeup on. 308 ARs.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
This. An M14 is a money pit in that it will cost you a lot to make it perform as well as a lower tier DPMS .308.
So true. The M1A is a dinosaur. I have one, but it's going.
Thanks for helping me make up my mind gents. I believe I will go with the AR-10.
Barry in IN
04-22-13, 20:03
When I learned they existed around 30 years ago, I wanted an M1A so bad I couldn't stand it. I finally bought one in late 1987, had it rebuilt into an NM model, and shot it in NRA Highpower for a few years. The M1A was the king of the Highpower world at the time. To get people to use ARs, the league I shot in gave a special award for the top AR shooter; it often went unclaimed.
I stopped shooting Highpower for a couple of years, came back, and it was an AR world. I shot the M1A for a year or so, then switched to the AR like most people in HP. Most used AR-15s, but some made up Match Rifles based on AR-10-types.
I noticed four things with the big AR switch in Highpower, whether AR-15 or AR-10: 1) It took less money, time, and work to make the AR competitive. 2) Scores went up. 3) Maint went down. 4) There were fewer rifle problems/breakages.
What does Highpower have to do with the type of shooting most discussed here? Not a helluva lot. But I think most of the M14/M1A's reputation was made in Highpower shooting. When people praise the M1A/M14, they are bound to bring that up. I think it's only far to talk about the bad along with the good in that case.
To a degree, I feel the AR change effects I listed apply outside of HP too. If it took more work and money get get an M1A set up, more work to get good hits, took more to keep going, etc...it's a clue.
I doubt I will ever part with my M1A, but it's for nostalgia sake and not because I think it is better at anything. But if nostalgia is the reason for buying, I'd rather buy a CMP Garand and get a rifle that really was an issued rifle with it's own war stories, and spend less money doing it. I shoot Garands regularly, and haven't fired a round through my M1A in ten years or more.
Great post Barry; thank you for your time sir.
you should know that 308 AR's are not standardized into one system with interchangeable parts. So for example, A Rock River 308 AR, does now use the same magazines as an Armalite AR-10, which does not use the same magazines as a DPMS 308 AR. Before you pull the trigger do some research on all the different 308 AR companies.
That I did not know. Thanks for another reason I love this forum. I could have made a huge mistake. You may have just saved me some time and money.
That I did not know. Thanks for another reason I love this forum. I could have made a huge mistake. You may have just saved me some time and money.
The search is half the fun:D
ICANHITHIMMAN
04-23-13, 06:28
Well I never had to make the choice your faced with, but I don't regret the one I made at all. My M14 has a special place in my heart, It was the first service rifle I ever fired, both in general and on full auto (I did not hit anything).
I bought one as soon as I could and I love it. It pays to know what your getting for your money as they are not all the same. Springfield armory is not a choice (unless made way back with GI parts)!
My rifle is a match conditioned Armscorp with Winchester parts, it will hold minute of man all day long out to 800m with surplus ammo. That's good enough for me with iron sights from the prone unsupported. It will do better from the bench with an optic and LC LR118. It will hold 1/2 MOA at 200m, provided I don't let the barrel warm up, that's from what guys refer to as a pencil thin barrel. I love it!
Littlelebowski
04-23-13, 06:45
That I did not know. Thanks for another reason I love this forum. I could have made a huge mistake. You may have just saved me some time and money.
Look for something that is .308 PMAG compatible. This ongoing blog post (http://rationalgun.blogspot.com/2013/03/a-tale-of-four-308-semi-auto-rifles.html) should help.
Littlelebowski
04-23-13, 06:46
I just wish I could have been there when the AMU showed up with M16s and spanked the Marines and their M14s at Camp Perry. I would have been giggling as another sacred cow was slain.
Look for something that is .308 PMAG compatible. This ongoing blog post (http://rationalgun.blogspot.com/2013/03/a-tale-of-four-308-semi-auto-rifles.html) should help.
I completely agree. I had a rock river LAR8 which uses FAL mags and you are at the mercy of good quality FAL mags.
I still have an Armalite AR-10 that I love, but I have plenty of mags for it.
If I buy a new one it will be one that is compatible with current pmags.
Look for something that is .308 PMAG compatible. This ongoing blog post (http://rationalgun.blogspot.com/2013/03/a-tale-of-four-308-semi-auto-rifles.html) should help.
Food for thought, thanks again.
Food for thought, thanks again.
LMT, KAC, Colt, Larue, SW are the ones I can think of that use the pmags all the same. I am sure there is more.
Doc. Holiday
04-26-13, 14:33
I would go for the LMT in .308 if you're going the AR10 route.
Seems like the LMT, S&W, and Colt 901 have the best availability right now. The LMT may be a bit of a search and likely still more expensive than it would have been pre-Sandyhook.
LaRue OBR, LaRue predatAR, LaRue PradatOBR, and KAC ECC are great options too. Good luck ordering one right now as both LaRue and KAC seem pretty back logged. OBRs (and less so PredatARs) can occasionally be found on Gun Broker at rather inflated prices. Same for the KAC SR25 ECC. There have been a bunch of earlier generation SR25s on Gunbroker at good prices and I would certainly consider one of these if I were in the market for a 308 gas gun.
Keep in mind that the LMT is quite heavy. If you want to run this as a battle carbine, you may want to consider the other options.
Seems like the LMT, S&W, and Colt 901 have the best availability right now. The LMT may be a bit of a search and likely still more expensive than it would have been pre-Sandyhook.
LaRue OBR, LaRue predatAR, LaRue PradatOBR, and KAC ECC are great options too. Good luck ordering one right now as both LaRue and KAC seem pretty back logged. OBRs (and less so PredatARs) can occasionally be found on Gun Broker at rather inflated prices. Same for the KAC SR25 ECC. There have been a bunch of earlier generation SR25s on Gunbroker at good prices and I would certainly consider one of these if I were in the market for a 308 gas gun.
Keep in mind that the LMT is quite heavy. If you want to run this as a battle carbine, you may want to consider the other options.
I was surprised at how heavy the 901 and LMT guns were. It seems to keep them in a precision role rather than something you'd take to a carbine class.
I have an m1a scout that I am selling now. Fun gun, accurate enough, and reliable. Hard to mount optics.
I just bought an m&p 10. It shoul be here next week.
...something you'd take to a carbine class.
FNH SCAR 17.
Accurate, reliable, light weight, low recoil.
What's not to like? ;)
FNH SCAR 17.
Accurate, reliable, light weight, low recoil.
What's not to like? ;)
You know you're preaching to the choir on that.:D
Can't Argue with the LMT reco:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gthit2W39CY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gthit2W39CY
Army Chief
04-27-13, 12:04
I hadn't even considered the FAL.
I don't own one, despite a longstanding interest, probably for the same reasons that I don't own a Browning Hi-Power: there are so may variations available (vintage v. contemporary, military v. commercial, English v. metric, Austrian v. Brazilian v. Who-knows-where, parts kit v. factory-built) that you really need to become something of an expert to shop intelligently.
Even if we were to agree that a company like DSA is producing worthwhile rifles (I don't know the current stance on this), they offer so many different models that you're still left flipping through a catalog with no clear azimuth. There are always one or two grizzled FAL aficionados hanging around at any respectable range or gun club, but they often seem to speak an entirely different language, so you really need to pay close attention and do your homework.
I own a nice M1A, and l likely always will. It doesn't see much use, mind you, and I suspect the current 7.62 versions of the AR represent a more forward-thinking proposition for the majority of us, but it is hard to let go of the old wood, steel and leather era entirely. Nor should we.
If the money were mine to spend, and I had a large enough stack of it, I'd be calling KAC for an SR-25 or looking for an FN SCAR-17S, but I don't actually live in that world at the moment. Most of my recent caliber excursions have involved 6.8 and 300 BLK, which deliver comparable results at the ranges I concern myself with. Much beyond this, I think I would reach for a bolt gun, but it could be that I just still have a lot to learn about how far the "big boy pants" ARs have come in the past decade or two.
AC
Failure2Stop
04-27-13, 12:09
Frankly, I'd buy an M1 Garand before an M14 based rifle.
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Army Chief
04-27-13, 12:19
Frankly, I'd buy an M1 Garand before an M14 based rifle.
Having walked a bit down both of these paths, I agree. A CMP Garand, sent to DGR (Dean's Gun Restorations) for some period parts corrections (if necessary) and overall TLC results in a rifle that, if not your absolute favorite, will always be right there, competing for the title. Of course, a real-deal M1 takes us to the .30-06 chambering, but one can do far, far worse.
AC
7.62WildBill
04-27-13, 12:39
Last month I was talking with a highly accomplished Army veteran, who is a SME at M4C and owns both private security and training companies, about .308 AR's. He told me that in his opinion, LaRue builds the most accurate .308 AR on the market. I don't know how many he owns, but have seen 3 of his PreadatAR's .
VooDoo6Actual
04-27-13, 12:39
How do M14s stack up against the AR-10 for high-volume reliability and overall accuracy?
Used them both operationally in different AO's. "EBR" was nice but noticeably heavier.
AR-10 for me of that genus. I would opt for LMT / KAC / LaRue / HK of that species.
as always YMMV & Good luck on your quest....
I have owned a bunch of FAL's over the years. My last one was a DSA 16 inch tactical with rail and folding stock. The paratactical. Great rifle. Accuracy was very good for a FAL. However, like all FAL's it started out about 2 lbs heavier than a comparable 308 AR. If the weight does not bother you the DSA FAL is a great way to go. Same goes for the HK-91 series. I pretty much got rid of my FAL's, M1a's and HK-91's, not because they were no good, but because I wanted to standardize with a platform that I already new so well (M4). So now I only own AR platforms, maybe boring, but just the way I do it. I will say this much, out of the M1a's, FAL's and HK-91's I have owned, the M1a's were the least reliable and that was only with crap ammo. The FAL's and 91's always cycled. Heck, the 91's bolt slams forward with enough force that you feel the gun go forward. There is no way a round will not chamber.
Army Chief
04-27-13, 12:49
IHeck, the 91's bolt slams forward with enough force that you feel the gun go forward. There is no way a round will not chamber.
I seem to recall them throwing the brass like 30 feet downrange, too. Might as well send as much crap as you can in the bad guy's direction, right? ;)
AC
I seem to recall them throwing the brass like 30 feet downrange, too. Might as well send as much crap as you can in the bad guy's direction, right? ;)
AC
:lol:
that's a fact, lol.
I would love to have an SR-25 or an HK, but that along with optics put's me right out in the "sell my car and ride my bike to work territory"
NHbowhunter
05-01-13, 22:38
To the OP, I don't own a SCAR 17 or KAC SR-25 and have not had a chance to shoot either, so I can't comment on them. However, I do own both a M1A and an AR-10B and have shot them extensively over the last decade or so.
The M1A is absolutely my favorite rifle, purchased used about 10 years ago. When I sighted it in at a range in Woburn, MA, the first three shots from a cold barrel clover-leafed in the 10-ring at 200 yards using open sights, sitting with my elbows on a bench. It is the most accurate semi-auto rifle that I own. I have even taken it moose hunting. Call me old school, but I love walnut stocks and prefer them over hearing that rattling sound in my ear from the buffer spring in plastic AR stocks.
My M1A is a low (very low) 4-digit serial number National Match with NM sights, barrel and trigger. It has a M14 walnut stock that was factory glass-bedded and the selector cutout was filled in with fiberglass. According to the widow I purchased it from, her late husband shot the rifle competitively in the 1970's, including at Camp Perry. Yes, it is a true story based on the photos that she showed me. She did not know what she had, but she needed money. I took pity on her and paid $1600 for the rifle, a 70's green hard side piano hinge case, original GI issue leather sling, and approx. 1400 rounds of LC '68 .308 ammo. I was able to get a factory letter from Springfield Armory that dates the rifle's assembly to July 1975 (less than a year after SA moved to Geneseo). The downside is expensive mags and it is hard to mount / use optics.
My Armalite AR-10B 20" rifle is also accurate, but is not sub-MOA, at least not in my hands. It is, however, just as accurate as most of the bolt action rifles that I own. As others have said earlier in this thread, the benefits of the AR platform are ease of customization, lots of parts, and ease of mounting optics. If you want to hang lights, lasers and garage door openers on your rifle, then ARs are for you. The only downside of the AR-10B is the requirement to use proprietary Gen II or modified M-14 mags. The AR-10A uses the same SR-25 mags as KAC, Sig, DPMS, etc.
Also, I agree with another poster that shooting a M14 on full auto is tough. I have shot a variety of NFA firearms over the years, and the M14 was the hardest to control. Even at 270 lbs, I could not keep it from going high and to the right almost as soon as I hit the go button. :)
If you can't decide between the two, then get both!
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Army Chief
05-02-13, 08:49
Great post, NHbowhunter.
AC
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