View Full Version : Battlecomp impressions: Am I weird?
PalmettoPrecision
04-23-13, 17:56
I decided to pick up a BC 2.0 a few days ago after reading and hearing about all the hype surrounding these comps. I have always used A2 FHs on my sticks, with the exception of shooting a few rifles with brakes periodically. After installation on my DD middy 16", I hit the range with a buddy to get impressions on noise, concussion, side blast, etc. Mimicking what most have confirmed, the noise was more than an A2, but much less than a break. Didn't kick up as much debris while prone. Concussion wasn't bothersome under shelter or while positioned near walls. The most pronounced effect the BC had was a distinct muzzle dip below the neutral plane during recoil. It was weird to me at first, but became almost annoying during rapid strings of fire. I could watch the dot of my T-1 track down the target, and was almost fighting to keep the rifle up at my POA. I have heard about this phenomena from other places around the interweb, but was not aware it was this pronounced.
Anyone else having this "issue"? Have people simply experienced it early, and gotten used to it? Any recommendations on making adjustments? (Hardware or software)
Thanks in advance, I'm interested to see what people think.
I noticed this when I first got the BC. I think it may be a symptom of applying A2-style muzzle control to a more efficient brake, thus pushing the muzzle down, since you need less effort to keep the gun on target with the BC.
PalmettoPrecision
04-23-13, 18:37
I noticed this when I first got the BC. I think it may be a symptom of applying A2-style muzzle control to a more efficient brake, thus pushing the muzzle down, since you need less effort to keep the gun on target with the BC.
That's a possibility. I will keep that in mind when I run it again this weekend. Thanks for the reply
jonconsiglio
04-23-13, 18:46
I had one on my SCAR H for a short time. Same thing happened and it got to a point that I had to take it off.
I had the same issues with the BC. I went back to the A2.
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Some have found that clocking it at about the 1 o clock position helps. The most neutral of these new hybrids to me is the griffin armament flash comp.
Some have found that clocking it at about the 1 o clock position helps. The mist netural of these new hybrids to me is the griffin armament flash comp
Quit talking about that freaking Griffin VIP3R. Makes me want to spend money on one. ;)
-Jax
Quit talking about that freaking Griffin VIP3R. Makes me want to spend money on one. ;)
-Jax
It's worth it! As much as i play around with muzzle devices i keep on going back to it as my fav. Not too mention Evan is a good guy and he'll take care of his customers. My next step is picking up one of their suppressors.
I'm surprised you havent picked one up yet.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=116055&page=1
PalmettoPrecision
04-23-13, 20:34
Some have found that clocking it at about the 1 o clock position helps. The most neutral of these new hybrids to me is the griffin armament flash comp.
I'm not sure I follow. The logo on the comp is timed to 6 o clock, per instructions provided. What part of the comp are you suggesting be timed to 1 o clock? Are you suggesting the ports be timed as to put the BCE logo at 7 o clock?
I'm not sure I follow. The logo on the comp is timed to 6 o clock, per instructions provided. What part of the comp are you suggesting be timed to 1 o clock? Are you suggesting the ports be timed as to put the BCE logo at 7 o clock?
Not the best pic to show my 1 o'clock timing but you off set the BC to 'point' the gas to go towards the path of least resistance. I am a righty so my left arm supports the gun. This means the rifle will move to the right. By timing it slightly right (1 o'clock) it reduces the right push. Plus makes the rifle go straight down instead of down and right. Some guys don't like it b/c it does increase the left push a bit while shooting support hand.
http://i907.photobucket.com/albums/ac279/jaxman7/gn021-1.jpg
-Jax
PalmettoPrecision
04-23-13, 21:12
I understand, thanks for the explanation. I'm interested to see other opinions and input.
Are their any other factors that could be attributing to the downward push of the muzzle? I did change my buffer from an H to an H2 a while back, but I do not see how that would contribute.
I understand, thanks for the explanation. I'm interested to see other opinions and input.
Are their any other factors that could be attributing to the downward push of the muzzle? I did change my buffer from an H to an H2 a while back, but I do not see how that would contribute.
The BC does such a good job of compensating that it over compensates it seems. They are my favorite muzzle device and I am very used to the downward push. It is weird at first. I almost got rid of it when I first tried it.
Now when I shoot my rifle with the BCM Comp that feels odd for a few rounds b/c it has the more common slightly upward push......It's all what your used to.
citizensoldier16
04-23-13, 21:40
I had the same experience with the BC1.0 pushing the muzzle down. I suppose its a training issue that I'm going to have to get used to, because I'm so used to pushing the muzzle back down onto target. Maybe, in some way, I'm adding to the drop because I'm used to the A2.
I fired one rapid string of 6 rounds at 7 yards while resting the rifle on the heel of my hand (target shooting style) with my elbow and upper arm pinned against my side. The muzzle didn't move, and all my shots were within about 3 inches of each other.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that, for me, I just need to let the rifle do the work with the BC1.0....and retrain my brain not to force the rifle downwards as I would with an A2.
PalmettoPrecision
04-23-13, 21:50
I had the same experience with the BC1.0 pushing the muzzle down. I suppose its a training issue that I'm going to have to get used to, because I'm so used to pushing the muzzle back down onto target. Maybe, in some way, I'm adding to the drop because I'm used to the A2.
I fired one rapid string of 6 rounds at 7 yards while resting the rifle on the heel of my hand (target shooting style) with my elbow and upper arm pinned against my side. The muzzle didn't move, and all my shots were within about 3 inches of each other.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that, for me, I just need to let the rifle do the work with the BC1.0....and retrain my brain not to force the rifle downwards as I would with an A2.
Thanks for sharing your experience. I will try a less aggressive stance and hold; "drive" the rifle less, and see how things turn out.
:D
Thanks for sharing your experience. I will try a less aggressive stance and hold; "drive" the rifle less, and see how things turn out.
I'm not sure I follow. The logo on the comp is timed to 6 o clock, per instructions provided. What part of the comp are you suggesting be timed to 1 o clock? Are you suggesting the ports be timed as to put the BCE logo at 7 o clock?
Jax-the-man answered this perfectly.
I really like the BCE's, i think they are one of the best devices on the market, but you cant run your rifle the same as with an A2. Many guys shoot using the Costa Cobra or whatever the heck they call that which is very effective but most need to loosen up a bit with a comp/break. Control the recoil/muzzle rise, but dont fight it.
If you like how the A2 feels the BCM comp may fit your style a little better. Or the GA Flash Comp :D
citizensoldier16
04-23-13, 23:15
Thanks for sharing your experience. I will try a less aggressive stance and hold; "drive" the rifle less, and see how things turn out.
I've used the same stance and hold, but like you said, I find myself not having to "drive" the rifle back onto target for subsequent shots. I'm still in the re-training mode, but well on my way to developing the proper muscle memory.
Unfortunately, the answer is time dedicated to practice and money dedicated to rounds. In the current economy, ammo is expensive if you can find it at all. I recently managed to find a 200 box of Rem .223 for $85. I shot about all of it in one day trying to get used to the BC1.0.
Yeah it happened to me too. I switched to either flash hiders or brakes now, no more comps for me.
Tzintzuntzan
04-23-13, 23:47
Good thread. I'll keep this in mind when I finally get my hands on a Battlecomp. I've been trying to find good ammo at the moment and as you know, it ain't cheap.
polymorpheous
04-23-13, 23:58
I am curious if people are experiencing this "pushing down" effect on the AK variant BattleComp.
In my comment earlier I mentioned BCs seem to over compensate and I wonder if this may have been planned into the design. Maybe the Godfather can chime in. It may be a little weird when first shooting one but they are fantastic at controlling full auto fire.
Me after a class last November goofing off. My rifle (H2/16" barrel/carbine gas)has a BC 1.0. Watch the muzzle:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySfpDkp20CY&feature=youtube_gdata_player
-Jax
PalmettoPrecision
04-24-13, 00:53
In my comment earlier I mentioned BCs seem to over compensate and I wonder if this may have been planned into the design. Maybe the Godfather can chime in. It may be a little weird when first shooting one but they are fantastic at controlling full auto fire.
Me after a class last November goofing off. My rifle (A5H2/16" barrel/carbine gas)has a BC 1.0. Watch the muzzle:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySfpDkp20CY&feature=youtube_gdata_player
-Jax
Impressive video. Can you identify any key differences in the way you ran the rifle before the addition of the BC? Are you using your support hand to "guide" the rifle to the target as opposed to "driving" it down on target in an effort to mitigate muzzle rise? Have you altered your form in any way to accommodate for the downward push?
I have previously seen videos of full auto fire with a BC, and they look nothing like yours... shooters seemingly have to almost "fight" the muzzle up on target.
Great job on learning your setup though, you seem very proficient.
Impressive video. Can you identify any key differences in the way you ran the rifle before the addition of the BC? Are you using your support hand to "guide" the rifle to the target as opposed to "driving" it down on target in an effort to mitigate muzzle rise? Have you altered your form in any way to accommodate for the downward push?
I have previously seen videos of full auto fire with a BC, and they look nothing like yours... shooters seemingly have to almost "fight" the muzzle up on target.
Great job on learning your setup though, you seem very proficient.
Honestly I run the rifle now no differently than when I've had other muzzle devices. My primary md before that was the FSC556. Very flat shooting as well.
As far as all the driving/guiding stuff. I pull the rifle into my shoulder. No downward push or anything. The extended support hand reach helps transition to targets with more control and-in relation to our conversation-allows more leverage to pull the rifle into the shoulder. This is where technique triumphs over*any expensive doo dad. Not touting my abilities (tons of better shooters than me just on here) but if I would've made that video 5 years ago before I knew what I was doing.....well it would've looked like one guy holding onto a firehose!
-Jax
As others have mentioned I am of the opinion that it takes a slight adjustment in your shooting style in that you do not need to focus as much on a downward control of the muzzle with the BC and a more neutral grip can be maintained. I have timed them at about 1-2 o'clock for some shooters and I have actually ported the bottom flat for some who will not give up a more aggressive downward hold.
Here is another of the BC on full tilt for 60 rounds on a 10.5" barrel which is definitely more violent. With my normal push that I would use with an A2 I would be dipping the BC on full auto. I still need to be "into" the rifle, but the muzzle control is much more efficient.
http://youtu.be/Kz488scKXGk?t=1m36s (http://youtu.be/Kz488scKXGk?t=1m36s)
RogerinTPA
04-24-13, 15:53
I have Battlecomps on 4 of 6 guns. When I received my first one, there was quite a bit of difference from the A2s and 1 other FH I can't recall at the moment. The gun was way more controllable than the A2s I've used before. I noticed I didn't have to be so agressive with recoil management and it's concussion was tame compared to others I've played with or was exposed to on the firing line. After getting used to it with a few mags, and finishing my range time with 8 more mags, I was sold on it's concept and bought a few more. After a several thousand rounds fired and a few carbine classes, it's my preferred muzzle device...even with a DD MK18. During several rapid fire drills in classes, quite honestly, I was concentrating more on recoil management, driving the gun and dot placement to ever notice a pronounced diving tendency. When I swap to an upper with an A2, I can really tell the difference. Apparently, the BCs are an acquired taste for some, but I'd give it a while (ammo availability permitting) and try to modify your shooting technique, take it to a class, ring it out and try to adjust, if you're so inclined.
I found the Griffin easier to stay on target also, maybe worth a shot to try one first.
For a full auto gun i can see the use.
For a semi auto, why fight gravity?
I liken the battle comp to an over sprung handgun. Muzzle dip is a clear no no when shooting a handgun so why should it be acceptable on a rifle?
For myself personally I do not currently have any dip of the muzzle with the BC. When first using it, I did have a downward push as my normal desire to combat recoil played a role. I am thinking that this may be the case for many shooters. Now that I have found out the sweet spot in my grip I am able to maintain more of a neutral grip on the rifle without exerting downward force to help manage recoil. This allows me to be more relaxed or less tense in the upper torso and is much more comfortable and less fatiguing over long shooting sessions. It also lends me to be able to manipulate the rifle quicker in transition to follow up hit zones, multiple target engagements or rapid follow up fire with improved accuracy.
Most shooters who probably find the effects of a comp as negligible or who cannot tell a difference in performance shooting an A2 from a comp are probably not truly at the ragged edge of their performance. They may not be squeezing out as much as they could be getting out of their skill as the rifle may be a limiting factor, or they are absolute phenomes when it comes to shooting. When observing them, the latter is usually not the case. This is not intended as a jab at any shooters, but reality. I will be the first to admit that while I am not the greatest shooter out there, I am definitely the type who likes to analyze my performance via video, timers, drills, etc, or in essence as some say split hairs when it comes to performance.
I once had a guy tell me he saw no difference in his shooting from an A2 and a comp. According to him, comps are just obnoxious and does not improve shooting. He said, they are for guys who cannot "man up" and handle the 5.56 already tame recoil. The usual story. Well he is required to shoot from a bench and fire no faster than one shot per second. An extreme example, but not an uncommon theme.
Surf,
After taking a class with Frank Garcia i radically changed the way i track my sights and manage recoil. I dont fight the gun, i simply track the dot (whether it is a rifle or a fiber sight) and simply "ride the gun".
On a rifle, the only pressure i am exerting on the firearm is control of lateral movement to keep the dot where it needs to be. Again, "driving" the rifle or pistol up is counter productive to the way that i and many other people shoot. Throwing on a muzzle brake that induces "decoil" is just a no go for me.
A lot of people brush off the negative push of the BC and simply fly the banner of Tacticalawesomesauce. At least in this thread there are viable solutions being discussed on how to combat the negative push or how it actually works for some people.
Magsz, I agree completely on getting a shooter to be able to accurately track the dot. I stress that heavily in my curriculum as it has several advantages. However broaching over to combat shooting or even competitive shooting it can muddy the waters on this particular topic but I will not drift there. I also agree that we should be more inline with flowing with the weapon. I too have been guilty in the past of attempting to use my bulk to impose my will on recoil which is not always the correct option. It isn't always wrong either IMO, but being more fluid is a good thing.
So in essence, tracking the sights or the dot is key. However we must acknowledge that less movement of the muzzle and sights with the same neutral hold will create a faster recovery time to the follow up shot. As an example, we are at 50 yards shooting on say an IDPA target and our hit zone is the center 8" -0 circle. We are using similar weapons but one with an A2 and one with a comp. We are using a neutral hold for both and just "riding the weapon". Now with an A2 the dot completely moves off the entire IDPA target. Now with the compensator the dot moves just outside of the -0 circle or sometimes stays centered. It becomes clear in which situation our recovery time will be faster to the follow up shot while attempting to maintain similar accuracy in the -0 zone.
Again if I am truly "riding the weapons recoil" and using a neutral hold the BC does not "dip" and my dot has far less movement, which means my recovery and speed of follow up shots dramatically improves. This can be seen in simple drills such as the Mod Navy, VTAC 1/2 and 1/2 etc...I know these are just drills but I can see how this can be a benefit to real world applications.
Again just my humble opinion.
I will also add that I have tried many comps. My standard litmus is dot movement from standing off hand at 50 yards. Easy to track movement or deviation off target at these distances. I will note that some comps perform better than the BattleComp, such as the Surefire and the SJC Titan, however I find the downsides on those comps to be too objectionable for my needs.
Surf,
It is a valuable opinion and i and i am sure many others appreciate it.
For ME, and many others, when using said neutral hold the rifle does indeed dip.
This is where we diverge, in that your particular physical makeup, stance and style allow the BC to create a neutral experience for you.
I cannot accomplish this no matter how i change my technique and i find myself fighting the rifle back into its neutral position or its original point in space.
Now, the question that i have is, how much of your opinion is affected by your ability to run this comp on a full auto weapon? As i mentioned earlier, i have no doubts in my mind that this thing ROCKS on a select fire AR.
Quite honestly when making choices, select fire has little to no influence on my decision making. It is such a small part of my shooting that it really is not part of my thought process. Also when I teach I use a base rifle that is configured in the exact same manner as we issue the new guys going through our course. So no comps, bad levers, etc...Same for pistols. I try to use the exact same weapon as the student base without modification.
Robb Jensen
04-29-13, 06:04
Comps act differently on different set ups and even with different shooters. Saying all ARs have muzzle dip when using BCs is like generically saying all pistols run best with 18lb recoil springs which is simply not true.
As noted above, the bottom line is what do you want the comp/brake to do?
Each and every design works a delicate balance between compensating for rise, recoil, or muzzle blast. A single design will also affect the kinesthetic "Feel" of the firing cycle if you change ammo types (55s, 62, 75s, 77s, etc.). Many absolutely dislike the Battlecomp on an SBR or Commando, while I think the HUGE majority of users probably have them on semi-only 16-inch carbines.
I know this vid has absolutely no bearing on how recoil or rise affect carbines, but it's the same brake on a heavier, full auto weapon in a long burst:
http://youtu.be/CmXGwiaeAvU
I have zero issues with my BC 1.5 dipping. I run it on a BCM 14.5" LW Middy with Aimpoint H1, which is my patrol rifle. I won a short range rifle event this weekend with it as a matter of fact. There were quite a few full race 3-gun setups there that had little to no movement on target, but terrible blast & flash. The CoF was 6 rounds in the gun to start, 5 yards movement to engage four 30 yard targets on the left side of a barricade, then 10 yards movement to engage three 20-25 yard targets right side barricade. All targets required three hits, one of which was a required head shot. I ran it in 27 seconds and change with zero points down, all head shots. I couldn't have done that if the muzzle was dipping or climbing.
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s157/Glocktogo/CIMG0797_zps21bf4d3d.jpg (http://s151.photobucket.com/user/Glocktogo/media/CIMG0797_zps21bf4d3d.jpg.html)
Wormydog1724
05-17-13, 14:14
Been running a battlecomp since mid-2010 and haven't looked back. I don't notice the muzzle dip. Either it's the way I shoot or my guns.
Mr. Greene
05-18-13, 20:57
interesting my buddy swears by these things but has never mentioned it i guess i will have to run his before placing the order i was going to. the testing never stops
I have experienced this. The AR has an operating system and barrel in-line with the stock. It does not need much of a downward force on the muzzle when braked - it needs just enough to counteract the moment produced by the minimal recoil remaining on the shooters shoulder.
I agree. We just installed one on one of the rifles in the armorer course last weekend in Sandy Springs. The person in question was a member of the SWAT team and he definitely liked it.
Been running a battlecomp since mid-2010 and haven't looked back. I don't notice the muzzle dip. Either it's the way I shoot or my guns.
I had the same experience with the BC1.0 pushing the muzzle down. I suppose its a training issue that I'm going to have to get used to, because I'm so used to pushing the muzzle back down onto target. Maybe, in some way, I'm adding to the drop because I'm used to the A2.
I fired one rapid string of 6 rounds at 7 yards while resting the rifle on the heel of my hand (target shooting style) with my elbow and upper arm pinned against my side. The muzzle didn't move, and all my shots were within about 3 inches of each other.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that, for me, I just need to let the rifle do the work with the BC1.0....and retrain my brain not to force the rifle downwards as I would with an A2.
I had the same issue when I first installed the Griffin Flashcomp.
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