View Full Version : BCM barrel length inconsistencies
I received a BCM 14.5" mid length barrel earlier this week and the first thing I did was measure it as my last two BCM 14.5" BFH barrels were actually 14.7". I know its not just me either. I've read a lot of threads where people reported varying barrel lengths between 14.5" and 14.8" on BCM's 14.5" series so I was hoping the barrel length inconsistencies were only with the BFH series.
(Which would make sense because the PSA 14.7" CHF barrels are marked 14.5" from FN from their factory and also Centurion Arms is going to start offering 14.7" FN sourced barrels instead of cutting down their 16" like they've being doing in the past)
But unfortunately the barrel measures exactly 15" (I measure it by inserting the bolt into the barrel extension and then dropping in a dowel rod, marking it, and then measuring) which is quite a big difference from 14.5". For those of us not fortunate enough to always reside in a NFA friendly state, millimeters sometimes matter. If I order a 14.5" barrel, I definitely don't want a 15" barrel (why is it even 15" anyways?).
I've emailed BCM and I'm waiting on their response but I figured I'd just let everyone know in case there's some people who are in the same boat as I was in.
I'd also be interested to hear why there would be such inconsistencies with their barrels if anyone has some insight. This is the first manufacturer I've experienced this with (all of my Noveske, LMT, KAC, Colt, and hell even PSA barrels have been the exact length they were sold/advertised as).
I know there's a lot of people on this site who would receive a crooked barrel from BCM and chalk it up to inconsistency, say 'well everyone has trouble once in a while' and let them fix it (which I have no doubt they will) but I guarantee the same people who are going to jump to their defense would absolutely trash any of the sub-tier manufacturers if they received a barrel sized differently.
Thoughts? Any insight?
Cheers!
ETA:
Thanks for unlocking the thread.
I asked BCM if all their barrels were indeed 15" or if there was some variation in the barrel lengths. They got back to me quickly but they did not answer any of my questions.
Response:
"Hi Dave,
Thank you for contacting us. We do appreciate your business. If you are not completely satisfied with your purchase you are welcome to return the stripped barrel to us for a refund. If you would like to return the barrel, please let us know and we will issue a RMA to return the barrel.
Thank you for choosing BCM."
For those of you asking... I'm 100% sure its a 15" barrel. I measured it 10 times now. I have a 24" Dewey 1 piece cleaning rod which I drop down the barrel onto a closed bolt, I then mark the cleaning rod at the crown and pull it out and measure the rod. My 14.5" barrels will measure 14.5" at the crown, this BCM barrel definitely measures 15" at the crown.
Also I have no idea why some people keep saying 2/10" (why not simplify it and write 1/5") or .2"... last I checked the difference between 14.5" and 15" is 1/2" or .5".
ETA Again:
They still have not offered anything but standard replies (nothing about the barrel length, or offering any apologies).
They're saying to return the barrel BUT I have to pay for shipping back, they won't refund my shipping charges, AND they're charging a 15% restocking fee. Basically I'm going to be short $75 for something they sold which was not in spec or as advertised.
IMO, this is absolutely unacceptable customer service and not something I'd expect from BCM.
FYI- http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=123718&page=2
As long as the darn thing isn't crooked, does 2/10ths of an inch really matter lengthwise?
OP, while you're probably right RE: trashing sub-par AR vendors, ultimately you have to decide "does it matter to me?" For me, enough people with two-way range experience have vetted BCM (amongst other quality brands), and for me, my usage, and potential use cases, minute differences in barrel length wouldn't matter. If it's something you're concerned about, then you're on the right path in emailing BCM for an explanation, and please do post any response as it is an interesting quirk.
My priority is "does the gun run reliably" - I'd shoot the heck out of it and determine if it meets my requirements. I could care less if the barrel is 15" or 16"... but again, that's just me, and you have a right to be concerned and get a response.
polymorpheous
04-27-13, 08:08
I received a BCM 14.5" mid length barrel earlier this week and the first thing I did was measure it as my last two BCM 14.5" BFH barrels were actually 14.7". I know its not just me either. I've read a lot of threads where people reported varying barrel lengths between 14.5" and 14.8" on BCM's 14.5" series so I was hoping the barrel length inconsistencies were only with the BFH series.
(Which would make sense because the PSA 14.7" CHF barrels are marked 14.5" from FN from their factory and also Centurion Arms is going to start offering 14.7" FN sourced barrels instead of cutting down their 16" like they've being doing in the past)
But unfortunately the barrel measures exactly 15" (I measure it by inserting the bolt into the barrel extension and then dropping in a dowel rod, marking it, and then measuring) which is quite a big difference from 14.5". For those of us not fortunate enough to always reside in a NFA friendly state, millimeters sometimes matter. If I order a 14.5" barrel, I definitely don't want a 15" barrel (why is it even 15" anyways?).
I've emailed BCM and I'm waiting on their response but I figured I'd just let everyone know in case there's some people who are in the same boat as I was in.
I'd also be interested to hear why there would be such inconsistencies with their barrels if anyone has some insight. This is the first manufacturer I've experienced this with (all of my Noveske, LMT, KAC, Colt, and hell even PSA barrels have been the exact length they were sold/advertised as).
I know there's a lot of people on this site who would receive a crooked barrel from BCM and chalk it up to inconsistency, say 'well everyone has trouble once in a while' and let them fix it (which I have no doubt they will) but I guarantee the same people who are going to jump to their defense would absolutely trash any of the sub-tier manufacturers if they received a barrel sized differently.
Thoughts? Any insight?
Cheers!
Take a wild guess as to where BCM sources their chrome lined barrels from.
It's not hard to figure out.
Only a few companies in the US have a hammer forge.
As long as the darn thing isn't crooked, does 2/10ths of an inch really matter lengthwise?
on my rifle no, on my gun yes.
Oh, a victim of circumcision. Nyuk! Nyuk!
I'd be pissed off.
You ordered a 14.5" barrel. Not 14.4 or 14.6 or anything other than 14.5.
If it's a 15" mid, which I think makes a lot of sense, advertise it as such.
If it's advertised as a 14.5", it should be real close. As in .00-something of an inch, not .-something of an inch...
If you order and pay for a high quality 14.5" barrel then it should measure at 14.5"....period. Since when did it become acceptable to buy a high quality item and not expect it to be exactly what you paid for.
Are you sure you measured correctly?
A few thousandths of a inch I could see, but .500 is way to much for me. Not sure why anyone would think this is ok.
I permed a BCM Mod 1 this morning to my BCM BHF 14.5" barrel & while doing so, I measured everything. The barrel was 14.625" & my OAL is now 16.375". Personally, I wouldn't lose one wink of sleep over any of this as I'm not concerned that an extra 0.375" will snag on anything as I'm punching holes in targets.
Sent from my Motorola DynaTAC 8000X using Tapatalk 2
sugerwater
04-27-13, 09:52
wow such a deep topic. ever here of tolerance, as in manufacturing? send bcm a few bucks for the extra length and call it ok.
ScatmanCrothers
04-27-13, 09:54
Are you sure you measured correctly?
Wondering this as well. And how many times did you measure? You know those dowel rods have a mind of their own sometimes ;)
I could see a +/- .20, but a .50 (or .30 from an already 14.7) variance is wild if true. Not really seeing how that'd be possible to be honest, but I'm no manufacturer.
wow such a deep topic. ever here of tolerance, as in manufacturing? send bcm a few bucks for the extra length and call it ok.
Some people can spell, use punctuation and read a tape measure.
It matters.
Why do we need two threads on this non issue?
Some people can spell, use punctuation and read a tape measure.
It matters.
Oxford comma, use it. :p
So the key takeaway from this thread is: when getting a 14.5" barrel to pin, buy the barrel first and measure it before buying an extra long muzzle device (e.g. a2x, BC 1.5, and BCM comp mod 1) regardless of barrel manufacturer. Sometimes you only need a regular length muzzle device.
BufordTJustice
04-28-13, 14:37
Oxford comma, use it. :p
So the key takeaway from this thread is: when getting a 14.5" barrel to pin, buy the barrel first and measure it before buying an extra long muzzle device (e.g. a2x, BC 1.5, and BCM comp mod 1) regardless of barrel manufacturer. Sometimes you only need a regular length muzzle device.
+1
I love the Oxford Comma!!!!
Yeah, for a guy (me) who prefers longer-than-A2 muzzle devices (SF MB and PWS FSC556), the difference between a 14.5" and a 14.7" is not worth worrying about. My wife's PSA CHF 14.7" FN-marked barrel (w/ perm'd A2) handles just about EXACTLY the same as my BCM 14.5" w/ perm'd FSC556.
I've never had my muzzle get hung up on something (car door, web gear, duty belt, door frame, tree branch, etc.) and said, "MOTHER****ER! That last .2" just ****ED ME HARD!!! I WISH I HAD A REAL 14.5" BARREL!!!"
In all seriousness, what happened if Colt's 16" barrels were actually 16.1"? Or if 20" barrels measured 20.2" (I've seen this multiple times on Colt 20" rifles)? Or if an 11.5" Noveske barrel was ACTUALLY 11.6"? *GASP*
If exact barrel length bothers somebody, they shouldn't even waste their time measuring custom barrels from Bartlein and others. They cut each crown until it is perfect...this means that NO BARREL is exactly the same length......there will be variations. *SECOND GASP*
This is normal, folks. There is some variation in machining processes. Don't lose your minds over it. Really.
AND, in terms of tactics (i.e. in the REAL WORLD), .2" doesn't matter for JACK SHIT. Period.
I've never had my muzzle get hung up on something (car door, web gear, duty belt, door frame, tree branch, etc.) and said, "MOTHER****ER! That last .2" just ****ED ME HARD!!! I WISH I HAD A REAL 14.5" BARREL!!!"
:D:D
Sent from my Motorola DynaTAC 8000X using Tapatalk 2
sugerwater
04-28-13, 14:45
Some people can spell, use punctuation and read a tape measure.
It matters.
sorry, what you get from the hammer forge is a striaght product, accurrate barrel, that is manufactured on tooling as old as me. length will vary during crowning. best to measure and choose when it matters.
BufordTJustice
04-28-13, 15:02
I think it's hilarious that those assholes over on TOS will take a "stand on principle" when a barrel is not exactly 14.5", but they say "**** IT" when their bolt is made from 8620 steel (not Carpenter 158), MAYBE heat treated, and definitely not shot-peened.
Cuz hypocrisy never happens over there. EVER.
Got a response from BCM.
They didn't answer my question and simply responded with:
"Hi Dave,
Thank you for contacting us. We do appreciate your business. If you are not completely satisfied with your purchase you are welcome to return the stripped barrel to us for a refund. If you would like to return the barrel, please let us know and we will issue a RMA to return the barrel.
Thank you for choosing BCM."
For those of you asking... I'm 100% sure its a 15" barrel. I measured it 10 times now. I have a 24" Dewey 1 piece cleaning rod which I drop down the barrel onto a closed bolt, I then mark the cleaning rod at the crown and pull it out and measure the rod. My 14.5" barrels will measure 14.5" at the crown, this BCM barrel definitely measures 15" at the crown.
Also for the person talking about 2/10" (why not simply it and write 1/5")... last I checked the difference between 14.5" and 15" is 1/2".
Seems this got moved to AR Tech.
I'd still like to hear some insight from anyone that has experience in the barrel making industry if its standard to have such a big difference in barrel lengths. I can understand .1" or so, but .5" just seems a bit extreme to be considered acceptable.
Traveshamockery
04-28-13, 17:15
wow such a deep topic. ever here of tolerance, as in manufacturing? send bcm a few bucks for the extra length and call it ok.
If you ever "here" of a manufacturer who has a half-inch tolerance range on a 14.5 inch long part, I'd advise you to walk the other way.
Gas ports and buffer selections depend on certain assumptions about barrel length. BCM will surely swap this out, and needs to know about the disparity.
Traveshamockery
04-28-13, 17:21
+1
I love the Oxford Comma!!!!
Yeah, for a guy (me) who prefers longer-than-A2 muzzle devices (SF MB and PWS FSC556), the difference between a 14.5" and a 14.7" is not worth worrying about. My wife's PSA CHF 14.7" FN-marked barrel (w/ perm'd A2) handles just about EXACTLY the same as my BCM 14.5" w/ perm'd FSC556.
I've never had my muzzle get hung up on something (car door, web gear, duty belt, door frame, tree branch, etc.) and said, "MOTHER****ER! That last .2" just ****ED ME HARD!!! I WISH I HAD A REAL 14.5" BARREL!!!"
In all seriousness, what happened if Colt's 16" barrels were actually 16.1"? Or if 20" barrels measured 20.2" (I've seen this multiple times on Colt 20" rifles)? Or if an 11.5" Noveske barrel was ACTUALLY 11.6"? *GASP*
If exact barrel length bothers somebody, they shouldn't even waste their time measuring custom barrels from Bartlein and others. They cut each crown until it is perfect...this means that NO BARREL is exactly the same length......there will be variations. *SECOND GASP*
This is normal, folks. There is some variation in machining processes. Don't lose your minds over it. Really.
AND, in terms of tactics (i.e. in the REAL WORLD), .2" doesn't matter for JACK SHIT. Period.
Work on your reading comprehension. It's a half-inch off, not a tenth or two-tenths off.
If you'd read half as much as you've posted here on M4C, you'd know that everything from gas port size and buffer selection to calculating ballistics and zeroing a rifle includes assumptions about a barrel's actual length.
Congratulations on this not mattering to you. It apparently matters to the OP. I'm sure you enjoyed your little spiel above, but some people here would like to have a useful conversation free of folks who prefer to ridicule someone's discovery instead of contributing something useful.
Why do we need two threads on this non issue?
Maybe because it's become an issue for some and they are asking for clarification regarding a legitimate discrepancy.
Not that it matters, but all my 16" BCM barrels (three) measure 16.5" My DD and PSA measure 16.2" Fastest chronographed one of the bunch, the DD. While I understand what Trave is trying to say, I doubt very much .5" is going to effect anything in calculating ballistics for a 14.5 or 15" fighting carbine.
Traveshamockery
04-28-13, 17:47
Not that it matters, but all my 16" BCM barrels (three) measure 16.5" My DD and PSA measure 16.2" Fastest chronographed one of the bunch, the DD. While I understand what Trave is trying to say, I doubt very much .5" is going to effect anything in calculating ballistics for a 14.5 or 15" fighting carbine.
It wouldn't matter much to me in my applications. I was just trying to illustrate why someone might have a very quantifiable reason to care.
I'd find BCM's ultimate response interesting, though we might not get one. I think the posts about barrel crowning make the most sense - I suspect barrels are cut long to allow for re-crowning if necessary, though 0.5 inches seems excessive...
14.5-inch mid-lengths have been known to be a little temperamental with certain barrel/ammo combinations, so even marginal changes to barrel length could have material effects on the function of a mid-length system.
Unless I missed it what appears to be lacking after numerous inquiries regarding inconsistent length is simple communication. Machining, specifically cutting a such a product to size is not percieved to be complicated. Therefore a better understanding of the origin of such discrepancies shouldn't be too much to ask for in this case.
I've bought from Paul with full confidence too and plan to do so again, but maybe this one topic should finally be addressed even if to a menial extent.
I imagine that there is someone in customer service who know's nothing about how the barrels are built hitting an automatic reply button. While that's not what we've come to expect from BCM, it certainly is understandable under the current market. Actual talented AR15 knowledgeable people are spread thin at this point.
The middy's seem to run better at 16", so being a 1/2" longer might make it run better ;)
Someone please explain rationally and coherently why this issue is a big deal? If the barrels were undersized I get that because you could be in violation of state and federal law.
That isn't the case here so I have to ask why is it a big deal? Those of us who have BCM barrel and uppers can testify to the fact that they are some of the best available on the market.
skywalkrNCSU
04-28-13, 18:44
Someone please explain rationally and coherently why this issue is a big deal? If the barrels were undersized I get that because you could be in violation of state and federal law.
That isn't the case here so I have to ask why is it a big deal? Those of us who have BCM barrel and uppers can testify to the fact that they are some of the best available on the market.
I would say that when buying parts like this you should expect to get what you pay for and what the item is listed as. If it isn't a 14.5" barrel they should state so. This would not be tolerated with other manufacturers on here, not sure why BCM gets a pass.
I would say that when buying parts like this you should expect to get what you pay for and what the item is listed as. If it isn't a 14.5" barrel they should state so. This would not be tolerated with other manufacturers on here, not sure why BCM gets a pass.
Exactly my thoughts and why I hesitated to even post this here.
...In all seriousness, what happened if Colt's 16" barrels were actually 16.1"? Or if 20" barrels measured 20.2" (I've seen this multiple times on Colt 20" rifles)? Or if an 11.5" Noveske barrel was ACTUALLY 11.6"? *GASP*
If exact barrel length bothers somebody, they shouldn't even waste their time measuring custom barrels...
Just wait till people discover that rifling isn't exactly as advertised and that on button rifled and cut rifled barrels, twist can vary up to a half inch either way from barrel to barrel.
The biggest concern about the extra half inch is whether or not the chamber is deep enough to support the case head. If that extra half inch is to headspace a short chamber, there is a problem. I don't know if this kind of mistake is even possible. IG, would you like to take this question?
If a buyer gets a barrel that's a little long, it's easy to have it re-crowned for better accuracy
The biggest concern about the extra half inch is whether or not the chamber is deep enough to support the case head.
How did you arrive at this conclusion? Not saying it's baseless, just genuinely curious.
There should not be a 1/2" of variation in length on the same model of barrel.
Justify all you want but there is a problem here.
Someone please explain rationally and coherently why this issue is a big deal? If the barrels were undersized I get that because you could be in violation of state and federal law.
That isn't the case here so I have to ask why is it a big deal? Those of us who have BCM barrel and uppers can testify to the fact that they are some of the best available on the market.
Don't you buy their products because you know they are made from the finest materials almost always made perfectly to spec, and because they generally strive for perfection? If so, why the free pass here?
I always wondered why companies didn't make 15'' mid barrels. This way, if pinning a muzzle device you can use a regular length device and be in OAL compliance.
Whenever I look at a 14.5'' and see the 1.5'' FH, I have flashbacks of those 11.5'' booshmasters with the 5.5'' long FH.
Work on your reading comprehension. It's a half-inch off, not a tenth or two-tenths off.
If you'd read half as much as you've posted here on M4C, you'd know that everything from gas port size and buffer selection to calculating ballistics and zeroing a rifle includes assumptions about a barrel's actual length.
Congratulations on this not mattering to you. It apparently matters to the OP. I'm sure you enjoyed your little spiel above, but some people here would like to have a useful conversation free of folks who prefer to ridicule someone's discovery instead of contributing something useful.
Quite sure Buford T knows his sh#t.
Buckjay has discovered the same thing I did and unfortunately his thread is going off the deep end as well.
-Jax
I always wondered why companies didn't make 15'' mid barrels. This way, if pinning a muzzle device you can use a regular length device and be in OAL compliance.
Whenever I look at a 14.5'' and see the 1.5'' FH, I have flashbacks of those 11.5'' booshmasters with the 5.5'' long FH.
.......and THIS is why I was quite pleased with what I discovered.
-Jax
BufordTJustice
04-28-13, 20:21
Work on your reading comprehension. It's a half-inch off, not a tenth or two-tenths off.
If you'd read half as much as you've posted here on M4C, you'd know that everything from gas port size and buffer selection to calculating ballistics and zeroing a rifle includes assumptions about a barrel's actual length.
Congratulations on this not mattering to you. It apparently matters to the OP. I'm sure you enjoyed your little spiel above, but some people here would like to have a useful conversation free of folks who prefer to ridicule someone's discovery instead of contributing something useful.
If you've read half of my posts, you'd realize that I've probably shitted-out more knowledge about buffers, gas port sizes, gas systems, enhanced carriers, etc. than you currently know on the topic. So have a lot of other people.
And we've all said the same thing: IN THE REAL WORLD IT DOESN'T MATTER, but the OP can send it back to BCM if they like.
Also, reference to the bolded part of your response: I'm a street deputy who will also be attending law school for my JD this fall. I think that you would be wise to not call into question my reading comprehension abilities. How about you read the first 5 posts talking about 2/10"?
Check yourself.
I would say that when buying parts like this you should expect to get what you pay for and what the item is listed as. If it isn't a 14.5" barrel they should state so. This would not be tolerated with other manufacturers on here, not sure why BCM gets a pass.
Thank you.:suicide2:
If I wanted a barrel >14.5" I would buy one.
If you've read half of my posts, you'd realize that I've probably shitted-out more knowledge about buffers, gas port sizes, gas systems, enhanced carriers, etc. than you currently know on the topic. So have a lot of other people.
And we've all said the same thing: IN THE REAL WORLD IT DOESN'T MATTER, but the OP can send it back to BCM if they like.
Also, reference to the bolded part of your response: I'm a street deputy who will also be attending law school for my JD this fall. I think that you would be wise to not call into question my reading comprehension abilities. How about you read the first 5 posts talking about 2/10"?
Check yourself.
Thats great you're a street deputy who's attending law school, however I don't see how that has anything to do with you talking about .1 and .2 of a difference on a barrel when my barrel is .5 over advertised spec.
I just wish BCM would have shed some light on the issue instead of just offering a blanket 'feel free to return it if you're not happy' statement.
I'm sure the discrepancies in length have also cost people a bit of money when they had to pay extra for the A2X to reach 16" when they could have just settled for an A2.
SEND THE BARREL BACK. Pretty simple if you ask me. Then buy a Colt or Spike's Tactical or maybe something from RRA or Bushmaster.
Thats great you're a street deputy who's attending law school, however I don't see how that has anything to do with you talking about .1 and .2 of a difference on a barrel when my barrel is .5 over advertised spec.
SEND THE BARREL BACK. Pretty simple if you ask me. Then buy a Colt or Spike's Tactical or maybe something from RRA or Bushmaster.
Yeah... okay.
I don't know why you have to bring in Spike's Tactical, RRA, Bushmaster into the discussion. I have more 'top tier' quality parts invested in my carbines then most people on this board.
Responses like this are not befitting of someone tasked with moderating a forum which prides itself on the wealth of information contributed by respected industry professionals.
Because you're not happy with the explanation provided and it would seem the difference is upsetting to you. So rather than you risking being let down again, just get a barrel from another source and be done with it.
Or contact BCM again and tell them to please measure the barrels out and ensure that you get the advertised 14.5".
Yeah... okay.
I don't know why you have to bring in Spike's Tactical, RRA, Bushmaster into the discussion. I have more 'top tier' quality parts invested in my carbines then most people on this board.
Responses like this are not befitting of someone tasked with moderating a forum which prides itself on the wealth of information contributed by respected industry professionals.
ForTehNguyen
04-28-13, 21:48
that extra .2" could be everything legality wise. What if the muzzle device was 1.45" instead of 1.5". Stacking tolerances. When you're dancing on the line of legality, I'll take an extra .1" or two to be safe.
ColtSeavers
04-28-13, 22:02
I still agree completely that a company that strives for and lives by such high standards should either enforce those standards or at least inform the consumer of a change to their standards.
I for one prefer to NOT have to relly on 'fantastic customer service' at all because the product was well made and as advertised from the get go.
If the barrels are now all random lengths, what else has been slipping by?
Why some on this sight prefer to ignore inconsistancies from certain companies because the thought of having to include a disclaimer about them when recommending reputable manufacturers to others is either inconceivable or impossible is beyond me.
I guess I should ask has anyone measured other companies barrels and seen if this is a common thing among other vendors as well?
I'd think a 15 inch barrel instead of a 14.5 would be more uncommon but who knows. I just wonder if this is common practice or not?
I guess I've never bothered to measure any of my ar barrels.
Traveshamockery
04-28-13, 22:15
If you've read half of my posts, you'd realize that I've probably shitted-out more knowledge about buffers, gas port sizes, gas systems, enhanced carriers, etc. than you currently know on the topic. So have a lot of other people.
Your valuable contributions to other threads stand in stark contrast with your condescending posts in this thread, where you mocked the original poster for asking a legitimate question. "What could have caused this to happen?" and "Have others experienced this issue?" are well within the bounds of reasonable discussion, and as a knowledge-based forum, there are plenty here (myself included) that are interested in the answers.
Also, reference to the bolded part of your response: I'm a street deputy who will also be attending law school for my JD this fall. I think that you would be wise to not call into question my reading comprehension abilities. How about you read the first 5 posts talking about 2/10"?
Check yourself.
I did check myself. Quoted from the thread's first post:
But unfortunately the barrel measures exactly 15" (I measure it by inserting the bolt into the barrel extension and then dropping in a dowel rod, marking it, and then measuring) which is quite a big difference from 14.5". For those of us not fortunate enough to always reside in a NFA friendly state, millimeters sometimes matter. If I order a 14.5" barrel, I definitely don't want a 15" barrel (why is it even 15" anyways?).
...
Also I have no idea why some people keep saying 2/10" (why not simplify it and write 1/5") or .2"... last I checked the difference between 14.5" and 15" is 1/2" or .5".
If it were just a tenth or two, this thread probably wouldn't exist.
ColtSeavers
04-28-13, 22:40
If it were just a tenth or two, this thread probably wouldn't exist. But half an inch is surprising from a company like BCM, so it presents an opportunity to learn more about the barrel making process.
I see these threads as an opportunity to track (in real time?) a company's standards. We have inconsistancies starting back in FEB (probably earlier but I'm going off of my link, err, now Iraq's link..) at .1-.2" variance. Now in APR we have .5" variance. Will be interesting to see what the coming months bring in not only barrel length, but also if anything else has been slipping by as well.
And Traveshamockery has edited the post as I was typing this, so apologies to the discrepancy.
BufordTJustice
04-29-13, 00:50
Thats great you're a street deputy who's attending law school, however I don't see how that has anything to do with you talking about .1 and .2 of a difference on a barrel when my barrel is .5 over advertised spec.
Yes, it is great....and it is quite pertinent when my intelligence is being impugned. SEND IT BACK.
BufordTJustice
04-29-13, 01:02
Your valuable contributions to other threads stand in stark contrast with your condescending posts in this thread, where you mocked the original poster for asking a legitimate question. "What could have caused this to happen?" and "Have others experienced this issue?" are well within the bounds of reasonable discussion, and as a knowledge-based forum, there are plenty here (myself included) that are interested in the answers.
I did check myself. Quoted from the thread's first post:
If it were just a tenth or two, this thread probably wouldn't exist.
My advice about the function of the barrel stands, as does the advice that Polymorpheous and IraqGunz have provided (which was the same).
There is simply ZERO functional bearing that this issue has on the function of the gun. And since we are a FUNCTION ORIENTED FORUM that is focused on REAL WORLD, TWO-WAY RANGE use, this is the information that the OP needed, and not necessarily what he requested.
My posts were not condescending, and I insulted nobody....I was a smartass with only general sarcasm in play. You, however, decided to take the high road. :rolleyes:
Also, I have bad news for you, this issue is present with virtually every AR15 barrel across brands...I was just classy enough to not shit all over other brands to prove my point.
So, knowing this to be fact based on my own personal experience, it makes no sense to create a mountain out of a mole-hill. BCM's excellent CS is on display. If the OP doesn't get what he wants, he can send it back.
I won't stand by and allow people to paint this as a BCM-only issue. It's ACROSS THE INDUSTRY. And it's not that big of a deal.
EDIT: It looks like this thread is going to be locked.
BufordTJustice
04-29-13, 01:17
I've emailed BCM and I'm waiting on their response but I figured I'd just let everyone know in case there's some people who are in the same boat as I was in.
I'd also be interested to hear why there would be such inconsistencies with their barrels if anyone has some insight. This is the first manufacturer I've experienced this with (all of my Noveske, LMT, KAC, Colt, and hell even PSA barrels have been the exact length they were sold/advertised as).
I know there's a lot of people on this site who would receive a crooked barrel from BCM and chalk it up to inconsistency, say 'well everyone has trouble once in a while' and let them fix it (which I have no doubt they will) but I guarantee the same people who are going to jump to their defense would absolutely trash any of the sub-tier manufacturers if they received a barrel sized differently.
Thoughts? Any insight?
Cheers!
You have asked 3 questions (underlined), made one statement of action (dark grey color), and made one industry bash on BCM prior to contacting the manufacturer (bold, and a violation of forum rules).
And NOW you're surprised at the response you've received?
I'll add that I've seen every single one of the makers you listed, aside from KAC, have barrel length variations up to .4". This has been for as long as I've cared to inspect barrels for this. One additional tenth of an inch and we are supposed to collectively lose our minds? Negative. Not gonna do that.
If it works, use it. If you're not happy, indulge BCM and SEND IT BACK. Period. And I have NO IDEA what you meant about NFA barrel length "risks"...LONGER IS BETTER if you're worrying about barrel length...risk enters the game when you're splitting thousandths trying to get as close to the legal limit as possible (i.e. when you see a perm'd muzzle device with TWO crush washers in place after pinning/welding....I've seen several).
polymorpheous
04-29-13, 01:43
Quoted from the thread linked to on page 1:
This thread is just more proof this site is infiltrated by stupid....
When I joined in 5 years ago, a thread like this would have been deleted long ago.....
And yes, BCM IS the top AR manufacturer. There's a reason their products are 10 times higher demand.
Yup, that's about right.
I see these threads as an opportunity to track (in real time?) a company's standards. We have inconsistancies starting back in FEB (probably earlier but I'm going off of my link, err, now Iraq's link..) at .1-.2" variance. Now in APR we have .5" variance. Will be interesting to see what the coming months bring in not only barrel length, but also if anything else has been slipping by as well.
I have been wondering the same thing, i.e. inconsistencies in product related to highly increased production demands (from ALL manufactures) in 2013.
I agree that this thread has started to head south. But seriously, everyone needs to stop whining about "BCM bashing".
How did you arrive at this conclusion? Not saying it's baseless, just genuinely curious.
When assembling an AR barrel, the chamber is cut which would be the rough cut. Then, the barrel extension is installed which is the final adjustment to bring the headspacing into allowable limits. If the chamber cut is shallow, the barrel extension would have to be set to make up for that difference, increasing the overall length of the barrel. Why that is a concern is that it would mean more of the case head is left unsupported by the barrel.
Nearly all rifle (and pistol) designs leave a small portion of the case unsupported to allow the extractor room to grip the rim. Leaving too much and cases will bulge and possibly burst from pressure.
Keep in mind my first post is pure speculation on my part, the technician in me framing the question out loud before studying it. I was hoping IG would share his knowledge of what he knows of the manufacturing process because it is possible the procedure would prevent such a situation form occurring in the first place. The question came to my mind because I asked myself what could have happened to result in the extra .3" of length? (We'll get to the .3" rather than .5") in a moment.) The extra length can only be from the barrel blank being as little long after crowning, or the barrel extension being set back a little more than normal, or a combination of the two. If the blank is a bit longer, no problem. It will allow the buyer to have a special target crown cut at the muzzle to improve consistency and ensure best accuracy. If it's the barrel extension then it should be checked to ensure the case is still fully supported. The latter is only likely if for some reason, there was a slip in the manufacturing process. Quite honestly, a half inch at the extension end is quite the slip.
That does not mean BCM needs to be raked over the coals for it if it's the extension. These things happen occasionally.
Since the AR barrel assembly and bolt is made in such a way that it eliminates the need to adjust headspace when the parts are mated, it stands to reason that the cutting of the chamber has a tolerance requirement and the process is controlled to the point that it would eliminate this possibility before the barrel extension is even installed.
If it were my barrel, I'd verify that the chamber is ok and see if could be target crowned and be able to use either an A2 birdcage or a 1.0 Battlecomp 1.0 and meet the legal length requirement (I like the Battlecomp!), pretend the extra half inch gives me a little velocity boost and pat myself on the back for being a clever (lucky) fellow. In fact, a 15" barrel with a standard length muzzle device is a more practical solution than having to buy a special device for the 14.5" barrel.
About the extra .3" (versus .5) of length- Barrels sold as 14.5 are for the most part, actually 14.7" long. Some measure a true 14.5, but most turn out to be 14.7 leaving to with a difference of .3 inches from 15.0. The 14.5" barrel is a class of barrel not promise of exact length
If it were my barrel, I'd verify that the chamber is ok and see if could be target crowned and be able to use either an A2 birdcage or a 1.0 Battlecomp 1.0 and meet the legal length requirement (I like the Battlecomp!), pretend the extra half inch gives me a little velocity boost and pat myself on the back for being a clever (lucky) fellow. In fact, a 15" barrel with a standard length muzzle device is a more practical solution than having to buy a special device for the 14.5" barrel.
I was somewhat curious of this also and was wondering if the extra .5" would be more of a blessing than a hindrance. Add a standard comp (cheaper) & the OAL is still close 16+" (give or take). I assumed the extra .5" in barrel length would be trivial to the impact of velocity so I refrained from asking.
Sent from my Motorola DynaTAC 8000X using Tapatalk 2
michael word
04-29-13, 10:15
I have two BCM uppers, 20" and 16". The 20" measures perfectly and the 16" acually measures 16.1", which is common for legal purposes. I have never seen a discrepancy in barrel length in any of my guns, even late war produced mosin nagants. If I wanted a 14.5" barrel and got a 15", I would be mad too. My uppers were made before the panic and maybe BCM is lowering there standards, due to the rush to keep product flow. I have seen bad products from BCM before, such as 4 receiver extensions that the threads were turned off center and bolt carriers that had burrs on the guide rails. All companies make mistakes at some point.
Robb Jensen
04-29-13, 10:49
FWIW I just measured my 14.5" LMT M4 barrel on a closed bolt 14.75" from bolt face to the muzzles crown.
BufordTJustice
04-29-13, 17:24
FWIW I just measured my 14.5" LMT M4 barrel on a closed bolt 14.75" from bolt face to the muzzles crown.
Not possible! Also, it's ****ed, so you need to send it back. ;) :lol:
This thread does have me asking two questions:
1) What is the standard for measuring barrel length? Is to the back of the barrel extension, the begging of the rifling, or distance from inserted bolt face forward or something else? I just don't know.
2) Why even offer 14.5 bbl ( i now its m4 lenghth) when we need a longer more expensive muzzle device to make it non NFA. I've seen some manufactures advertise 14.7 bbls tat just need a regular old A2 FH pinned on. Why isn't this the standard for civilian world, especially since we have mid length non standard gas systems too.
This thread does have me asking two questions:
1) What is the standard for measuring barrel length? Is to the back of the barrel extension, the begging of the rifling, or distance from inserted bolt face forward or something else? I just don't know.
2) Why even offer 14.5 bbl ( i now its m4 lenghth) when we need a longer more expensive muzzle device to make it non NFA. I've seen some manufactures advertise 14.7 bbls tat just need a regular old A2 FH pinned on. Why isn't this the standard for civilian world, especially since we have mid length non standard gas systems too.
This is a question I've been asking for a long time.
A 15" barrel with mid length gas and a lightweight profile makes a lot of sense. Retro-engineering a mid-gas barrel to be 14.5" long with the gov't profile blew the needle off the dumb-ass meter IMO.
It's about as smart as an M203 notch on a 16" mid barrel.
We have 14.5" barrels because the manufacturing process is set up to make them. We have known for years that a 14.5" barrel and a standard A2 will not quite make 16" but the answer was to lengthen the muzzle device- and it sells. 11" barrels with a pinned 5" CAR style muzzle device used to be quite popular. There was even one version where the barrel was actually much longer and most of the CAR muzzle device was sleeved to fit. This gave the carbine the CAR look with 3 or 4 extra inches of barrel
We have 14.5" barrels because the manufacturing process is set up to make them. We have known for years that a 14.5" barrel and a standard A2 will not quite make 16" but the answer was to lengthen the muzzle device- and it sells. 11" barrels with a pinned 5" CAR style muzzle device used to be quite popular. There was even one version where the barrel was actually much longer and most of the CAR muzzle device was sleeved to fit. This gave the carbine the CAR look with 3 or 4 extra inches of barrel
I don't buy that 100% only because the manufacturing process is also set up to make 14.5 carbine gas and 16 carbine gas - yet we have middies in both. :)
Moving the gas port hole isn't a big deal. It can be done without increasing waste.
It may my speculation isn't 100% but a guarantee you, if the market heated up for 15" barrels pinned with a standard A2, someone will start making them
Now, I'm no expert, but it seems to me we have 14.5" barrels because the military has 14.5" barrels. And a lot of people follow the military.
Personally, I like the idea of having 14.7" barrel so I can use the regular (cheap) A2 FH to make it 16"
If it's advertised as a 14.5", it should be real close. As in .00-something of an inch, not .-something of an inch...
Agreed. We deliberate over .0_" when it comes to other aspects on the gun, yet ._" is waved off as a 'just live with it'? I'm confused...
...the manufacturer could just advertise them as "14.5 inch-ish-andstuff"
Well just heard back from BCM.
They still have not offered anything but standard replies (nothing about the barrel length, or offering any apologies).
They're saying to return the barrel BUT I have to pay for shipping back, they won't refund my shipping charges, AND they're charging a 15% restocking fee. Basically I'm going to be short $75 for something they sold which was not in spec or as advertised.
IMO, this is absolutely unacceptable customer service and not something I'd expect from BCM.
I don't understand why this is an issue. :confused:
Is it right? Not exactly..
Is there a downside?? I don't see how there is since it's a little longer. I don't think I'd ever notice this since the gas system isn't Standard anyway.
My personal reason is I want the shortest legal barrel length possible because half the year I can't have my SBR and would like the smallest setup possible for HD purposes.
If I order a 14.5" barrel, I'd like it to be 14.5" or close. If it was 14.6" or hell, even 14.7" I probably would have just trucked on. However I don't feel an extra half an inch over advertised spec is acceptable QC (and a lot of people here seem to agree).
Ok... yeah.. I can dig that.
You know I have to go measure ****ing barrels after work now don't you? :mad: :p
Ok... yeah.. I can dig that.
You know I have to go measure ****ing barrels after work now don't you? :mad: :p
I did that on my "14.5" BCM after this thread was started and you know what? Mine is long too. Just under 15"
I don't care that much, but it does surprise me.
ScatmanCrothers
04-30-13, 14:24
If their QC and/or CS is unacceptable to you then it would probably serve you best to return the barrel, take your loss, and be thankful that you found out now that they don't meet your personal standards instead of sometime down the road with a larger purchase.
That being said, do you honestly feel that sporting a 15 instead of 14.5" barrel on your temporary HD rifle is going to hinder you or your weapons performance? It's a half inch for a couple of months.
You're going SBR anyway so even if it was 14.5 it still wouldn't be short enough to meet the standard you've determined you need for your permanent HD rifle. Whats another .5 gonna do?
I get the principal of it. Just depends on if that temporary piece of mind is worth your time and money I guess.
Is it right?
No...
Is there a downside??
Not really
...quite the quandary :)
Seriously OP, in this market...sell it. Don't return it. Sounds like there's plenty of guys in the thread that would be happy with your upper.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Do you know you'll be much over 16" with a standard comp? I'd be willing to bet that you're closer to 16" than I am with an extended comp.
Sent from my Motorola DynaTAC 8000X using Tapatalk 2
If their QC and/or CS is unacceptable to you then it would probably serve you best to return the barrel, take your loss, and be thankful that you found out now that they don't meet your personal standards instead of sometime down the road with a larger purchase.
That being said, do you honestly feel that sporting a 15 instead of 14.5" barrel on your temporary HD rifle is going to hinder you or your weapons performance? It's a half inch for a couple of months.
You're going SBR anyway so even if it was 14.5 it still wouldn't be short enough to meet the standard you've determined you need for your permanent HD rifle. Whats another .5 gonna do?
I get the principal of it. Just depends on if that temporary piece of mind is worth your time and money I guess.
I took the rubber butt pad off of my Vltor IMod and I run a standard carbine receiver extension instead of a Vltor A5 receiver extension on my dedicated HD because I wanted the shortest possible length. The pad measures .3 or so and the switch from A5 to carbine saved me .75". All of these things add up in the long run.
Just as people stress about shaving ounces on their rifles, I'm trying to build the shortest setup for HD purposes. A 14.5" barrel with my KAC MAMs will take overall barrel length to 16.05" when pinned.
Anyways, tired of talking about it all. I think if anyone takes a step back they can understand where I'm coming from and why receiving a barrel which is a half inch longer then advertised would leave me expecting more. Especially now that BCM has refused to say anything on the matter besides issuing an RMA label and letting me know I won't be refunded my shipping costs, the initial shipping charges, and furthermore I'll be charged a 15% restocking fee.
No...
Not really
...quite the quandary :)
Seriously OP, in this market...sell it. Don't return it. Sounds like there's plenty of guys in the thread that would be happy with your upper.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
There's no way I can sell it and recoup my costs. BCM has had the barrel in question in stock for over 3 weeks now (and its still in stock). Why would anyone buy from me over straight from BCM. There's no way I don't take a loss reselling it and that doesn't sit well with me considering I don't believe I'm at fault.
Anyways, done posting for real now.
Thanks for everyone's time and insight. Hopefully this thread can stick around as I believe a lot of people did not know barrels could vary in length so greatly (and people may want to wait to measure their barrels before buying a more expensive muzzle device to meet legal requirement when its not necessary).
Anyways, done posting for real now.
You mean for super real? Really??
Kidding and been there. ;)
Rayrevolver
04-30-13, 19:57
Rainier Arms Match 14.5" Barrel:
http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=2905
It measures at 14.8".
Barrel is going in the gutter! Match grade!?! I don't think so!
I have a BCM 14.5 but I got too lazy to measure it.
In all seriousness Buckjay, based on your requirements, why didn't you buy an 11.5" upper and put the long flash hider on it? It would probably end up a much lighter overall package and much more maneuverable.
Or get a 10.5" pistol.
Sell the upper on Gunbroker.
BufordTJustice
04-30-13, 20:09
Just measured my buddy's agency issue gov-program M16 A1 (w/ pencil barrel, triangle handguards, and no shell deflector).
The barrel measured 20.55 inches at the crown. WTF?!?!? I told him to call Colt to complain. :help:
BufordTJustice
04-30-13, 20:50
Other things never to measure: Your flat screen TV.
I guarantee it's not exactly XX inches. ;)
"What the **** do you mean it's 54.7 inches?!?!? I paid for 55 whole inches, asshole!!!! False advertising!!!"
Considering the AR community spent the last like 10 years comparing everything to a chart with quite a few things that don't actually matter, I'm surprised this isn't a bigger deal.
Other things never to measure: Your flat screen TV.
I can think of other things you may not want to measure either. It probably won't be as big as you thought it was. ;)
Eta: I mean "you" in a general sense.
Sent from my Motorola DynaTAC 8000X using Tapatalk 2
BufordTJustice
04-30-13, 21:22
Considering the AR community spent the last like 10 years comparing everything to a chart with quite a few things that don't actually matter, I'm surprised this isn't a bigger deal.
The chart existed because companies started to do stupid things that decreased their cost (and decreased quality) to increase their profit margins...and then lie about it being a top-quality part. Like making a bolt out of 8620 steel instead of the much more expensive (and stronger) Carpenter 158. That affects function. So does the actual steel used for making the barrel.
I'd take an "out of spec" BCM barrel every day of the week and twice on Sunday since I know it's made out of 11595-E mil spec barrel steel as opposed to....say any number of popular brands that are made out of some recipe of 4140. The exact barrel length doesn't matter to me nearly as much as the quality of the barrel.
As Grant says, these are war horses, not show ponies (doesn't just apply to Colt). An additional .5" of barrel length does NOT impair function. I'm not the biggest fan of the chart.....but there is an apples-and-oranges bent to your comment.
BufordTJustice
04-30-13, 21:40
I can think of other things you may not want to measure either. It probably won't be as big as you thought it was. ;)
Eta: I mean "you" in a general sense.
Sent from my Motorola DynaTAC 8000X using Tapatalk 2
Hehe. Very true. ;)
steyrman13
04-30-13, 21:56
Well just heard back from BCM.
They still have not offered anything but standard replies (nothing about the barrel length, or offering any apologies).
They're saying to return the barrel BUT I have to pay for shipping back, they won't refund my shipping charges, AND they're charging a 15% restocking fee. Basically I'm going to be short $75 for something they sold which was not in spec or as advertised.
IMO, this is absolutely unacceptable customer service and not something I'd expect from BCM.
If you would have returned it under the first response, you may not have bend charged those fees because you made no mention of them in the first response to return...
I understand you wanting more of an answer as to if that length is acceptable in tolerances etc but also if upset and they offered to refund I might would have taken that approach first.
My SR-15 measures roughly 16.25''. Add KAC to the shit list.
Those bastards...
Just kidding. I would expect all 16'' rifles to measure a small margin over 16'' to ensure that they are never accused of illegally selling NFA weapons.
Do the barrel makers produce data explaining their average length and standard deviations for their manufacturing process. Surely those numbers exist.
I measured my two BCM 14.5s last night for you Hipsters.
My new SOCOM, and my old Middy... BOTH check out at 14.5. :confused:
The chart existed because companies started to do stupid things that decreased their cost (and decreased quality) to increase their profit margins...and then lie about it being a top-quality part. Like making a bolt out of 8620 steel instead of the much more expensive (and stronger) Carpenter 158. That affects function. So does the actual steel used for making the barrel.
I'd take an "out of spec" BCM barrel every day of the week and twice on Sunday since I know it's made out of 11595-E mil spec barrel steel as opposed to....say any number of popular brands that are made out of some recipe of 4140. The exact barrel length doesn't matter to me nearly as much as the quality of the barrel.
As Grant says, these are war horses, not show ponies (doesn't just apply to Colt). An additional .5" of barrel length does NOT impair function. I'm not the biggest fan of the chart.....but there is an apples-and-oranges bent to your comment.
Oh come on, people make a huge deal out of the .040" difference between a F marked FSB and a regular one when 99.9% (guessing, but I'm probably close) of factory guns, abortion built mix and match guns, etc have never needed the additional travel to zero in.
We hear the same crap with different sized buffer tube lengths too.
As soon as one of the chosen one companies start doing something different it's acceptable though. Just like Colt with the purple finish (as you mentioned). Had Bushmaster (who used to be the chosen one) done that before Colt, we'd be bashing them for it saying it is a clear lack of quality control.
This forum is better about it in some ways than the other one, don't get me wrong. But to pretend like there aren't some double standards... meh.
I understand that BCM has built a name of quality. Mine is my go to bedside gun. There are few companies that I will buy parts from. BCM definitely should receive the benefit of the doubt as being acceptable and I fully understand the argument. I'm just saying ;)
I'm also curious as to what their process is for getting the barrels to size. I'm a machinist in training so when I see a .500 difference like that I assume someone didn't measure properly. I can't image their print has a +.500 -0 tolerance on length?
Either way, if I order something a specific length that is precision machined, I hope it's coming closer to that size than .500". My bulk material that I order comes within a 1/4".
I know, I know. "Who cares?"
ForTehNguyen
05-01-13, 20:48
dont buy a harddrive either and try to count the GBs
Oh come on, people make a huge deal out of the .040" difference between a F marked FSB and a regular one when 99.9% (guessing, but I'm probably close) of factory guns, abortion built mix and match guns, etc have never needed the additional travel to zero in.
We hear the same crap with different sized buffer tube lengths too.
As soon as one of the chosen one companies start doing something different it's acceptable though. Just like Colt with the purple finish (as you mentioned). Had Bushmaster (who used to be the chosen one) done that before Colt, we'd be bashing them for it saying it is a clear lack of quality control.
This forum is better about it in some ways than the other one, don't get me wrong. But to pretend like there aren't some double standards... meh.
I understand that BCM has built a name of quality. Mine is my go to bedside gun. There are few companies that I will buy parts from. BCM definitely should receive the benefit of the doubt as being acceptable and I fully understand the argument. I'm just saying ;)
I'm also curious as to what their process is for getting the barrels to size. I'm a machinist in training so when I see a .500 difference like that I assume someone didn't measure properly. I can't image their print has a +.500 -0 tolerance on length?
Either way, if I order something a specific length that is precision machined, I hope it's coming closer to that size than .500". My bulk material that I order comes within a 1/4".
I know, I know. "Who cares?"
You hit the nail on the head, saved me trouble of typing it up. Like you mentioned, seems like their is a double standard here.
If the barrel advertised at 14.5 inches and when you get it it's 15, you start to question what else slipped by quality control. No seriously, this is unexceptable, especially for top manufacturer like BCM.
I would have preferred a 15” barrel instead of 14.5” so it could have had a 1” fh perm attached instead of a 1.5". Why not just keep it?;)
saddlerocker
05-01-13, 21:18
I would have preferred a 15” barrel instead of 14.5” so it could have had a 1” fh perm attached instead of a 1.5". Why not just keep it?;)
This is the real reason I would care and BCM should keep it consistent.
It only really matters for the 14.5", so you can pin the correct flash hider.
If they are all 14.7-15" then you dont have to use an extended muzzle device.
sinlessorrow
05-01-13, 21:31
This thread does have me asking two questions:
1) What is the standard for measuring barrel length? Is to the back of the barrel extension, the begging of the rifling, or distance from inserted bolt face forward or something else? I just don't know.
2) Why even offer 14.5 bbl ( i now its m4 lenghth) when we need a longer more expensive muzzle device to make it non NFA. I've seen some manufactures advertise 14.7 bbls tat just need a regular old A2 FH pinned on. Why isn't this the standard for civilian world, especially since we have mid length non standard gas systems too.
1. Because alot of people have SBR's like myself and I like 14.5" barrels if I am going for a M4.
2. because with a perma pinned flash hider you cannot install numerous free floated rails that use their own barrle nuts because the gas block will not fit over the flash hider.
polymorpheous
05-01-13, 21:43
Oh come on, people make a huge deal out of the .040" difference between a F marked FSB and a regular one when 99.9% (guessing, but I'm probably close) of factory guns, abortion built mix and match guns, etc have never needed the additional travel to zero in.
We hear the same crap with different sized buffer tube lengths too.
As soon as one of the chosen one companies start doing something different it's acceptable though. Just like Colt with the purple finish (as you mentioned). Had Bushmaster (who used to be the chosen one) done that before Colt, we'd be bashing them for it saying it is a clear lack of quality control.
This forum is better about it in some ways than the other one, don't get me wrong. But to pretend like there aren't some double standards... meh.
I understand that BCM has built a name of quality. Mine is my go to bedside gun. There are few companies that I will buy parts from. BCM definitely should receive the benefit of the doubt as being acceptable and I fully understand the argument. I'm just saying ;)
I'm also curious as to what their process is for getting the barrels to size. I'm a machinist in training so when I see a .500 difference like that I assume someone didn't measure properly. I can't image their print has a +.500 -0 tolerance on length?
Either way, if I order something a specific length that is precision machined, I hope it's coming closer to that size than .500". My bulk material that I order comes within a 1/4".
I know, I know. "Who cares?"
You are showing your ignorance with this post.
The wrong FSB for a flat top upper can make it impossible to zero without the use of a longer front sight post.
A buffer tube that is the incorrect size can cause issues, especially in a gas system as sensitive as a 14.5" midlength.
The extra .5" does not impede function, nor will it place one in a legal situation when complying with NFA laws.
Now, BCM has a reputation for quality, they also have a reputation for customer service.
I know for fact they will gladly swap out the barrel no charge.
This whole thread just seems like a "gotcha" thread.
You have no idea what you are talking.
You hit the nail on the head, saved me trouble of typing it up. Like you mentioned, seems like their is a double standard here.
If the barrel advertised at 14.5 inches and when you get it it's 15, you start to question what else slipped by quality control. No seriously, this is unexceptable, especially for top manufacturer like BCM.
BufordTJustice
05-02-13, 02:08
Oh come on, people make a huge deal out of the .040" difference between a F marked FSB and a regular one when 99.9% (guessing, but I'm probably close) of factory guns, abortion built mix and match guns, etc have never needed the additional travel to zero in.
We hear the same crap with different sized buffer tube lengths too.
As soon as one of the chosen one companies start doing something different it's acceptable though. Just like Colt with the purple finish (as you mentioned). Had Bushmaster (who used to be the chosen one) done that before Colt, we'd be bashing them for it saying it is a clear lack of quality control.
This forum is better about it in some ways than the other one, don't get me wrong. But to pretend like there aren't some double standards... meh.
I understand that BCM has built a name of quality. Mine is my go to bedside gun. There are few companies that I will buy parts from. BCM definitely should receive the benefit of the doubt as being acceptable and I fully understand the argument. I'm just saying ;)
I'm also curious as to what their process is for getting the barrels to size. I'm a machinist in training so when I see a .500 difference like that I assume someone didn't measure properly. I can't image their print has a +.500 -0 tolerance on length?
Either way, if I order something a specific length that is precision machined, I hope it's coming closer to that size than .500". My bulk material that I order comes within a 1/4".
I know, I know. "Who cares?"
Poly already smoked you pretty good, but here's one more:
For a guy who uses his AR IN REAL LIFE (i.e. on patrol), if you have a non-F-marked FSB and you properly zero your gun, the FSP stands proud of the protective ears and can easily get COMPLETELY DESTROYED if it accidentally gets brushed against a trunk opening, door jamb, or any other hard item located on or around one's patrol car.
It's not "crap", guy. It ****ing matters. You'd be better-off dropping this as you seem more intent on attempting to bloody BCM's nose in the "brand wars" than you are about giving people sound, REAL WORLD advice.
I'm just saying.
Has anybody found a barrel that is shorter than advertised, say 14 inches vs 14.5 - if there is variance this way it could cause legal problems.
I love my BCM guns and from a functional standpoint the extra length is not an issue.
However, I find it hard to believe that spec'd tolerance allows for an extra half an inch of barrel length. The problem is that it begs the question, is this lack of quality control in this instance (which it absolutely is, functional difference or not) indicative of a further problem. I would hope not, and I think it's probably safe to assume that this is a fluke. I would think that BCM would be more concerned with their reply given the severity of the tolerance issue.
To be honest, if I had a customer with an issue that clearly shows something so severely (from a machining standpoint) beyond the actual desired specification, I would be doing my due diligence to make sure that this was primarily a single case, and secondarily that any other cases were errors on the side of legality. I think with something so clearly beyond what was ordered, BCM should be a little less "you don't want it send it back minus some cash" and more, "here, let's take care of this because it's definitely an error."
It's silly that half an inch should make a difference, but people would be calling for BCM's head if it were a half inch the other way. The bottom line is that half an inch is out of tolerance, making excuses simply based on their reputation doesn't help anybody, least of all them. What happens if their QC slips, how long will everyone be a staunch defender? I love my BCM's, but if I had an issue I would expect them to fix it, not pass it off. "Send it back minus 15%" is passing it off, and I guarantee if this were Bushy or DPMS or Oly everyone here would be crucifying them already. Functional difference or not, it's still wrong, and BCM should make it right, without taking their pound of flesh.
If I'm getting agency issued whatever, I wouldn't give a shit, but if I'm paying out of my own pocket, you damn well better believe that I want what I ordered, regardless of whatever anybody else thinks.
BufordTJustice
05-02-13, 05:07
I love my BCM guns and from a functional standpoint the extra length is not an issue.
However, I find it hard to believe that spec'd tolerance allows for an extra half an inch of barrel length. The problem is that it begs the question, is this lack of quality control in this instance (which it absolutely is, functional difference or not) indicative of a further problem. I would hope not, and I think it's probably safe to assume that this is a fluke. I would think that BCM would be more concerned with their reply given the severity of the tolerance issue.
To be honest, if I had a customer with an issue that clearly shows something so severely (from a machining standpoint) beyond the actual desired specification, I would be doing my due diligence to make sure that this was primarily a single case, and secondarily that any other cases were errors on the side of legality. I think with something so clearly beyond what was ordered, BCM should be a little less "you don't want it send it back minus some cash" and more, "here, let's take care of this because it's definitely an error."
It's silly that half an inch should make a difference, but people would be calling for BCM's head if it were a half inch the other way. The bottom line is that half an inch is out of tolerance, making excuses simply based on their reputation doesn't help anybody, least of all them. What happens if their QC slips, how long will everyone be a staunch defender? I love my BCM's, but if I had an issue I would expect them to fix it, not pass it off. "Send it back minus 15%" is passing it off, and I guarantee if this were Bushy or DPMS or Oly everyone here would be crucifying them already. Functional difference or not, it's still wrong, and BCM should make it right, without taking their pound of flesh.
If I'm getting agency issued whatever, I wouldn't give a shit, but if I'm paying out of my own pocket, you damn well better believe that I want what I ordered, regardless of whatever anybody else thinks.
The OP made the mistake of declining BCM's initial offer for a full return w/ no questions asked, wherein he decided to bash them even more for not supplying to him more information about the issue. BCM declined to provide additional info at that juncture (as is their prerogative) and the OP still refused to send it back....opting instead to bash BCM further.
If the OP thinks that BCM wasn't reading the thread to begin with, I think he now knows otherwise. I wouldn't expect any company to get bad mouthed and still extend the same olive branch...especially when their initial offer to completely resolve the problem was swift and generous.
It would appear that the OP looked the gift-horse in the mouth.
Also, it appears you skipped the posts indicating that EVERY MAJOR AR MANUFACTURER HAS BARRELS THAT ARE JUST AS "OUT OF SPEC" AS THIS BCM BARREL IN QUESTION. Including Colt. This is not a BCM "issue".....it is a market-wide "issue".
polymorpheous
05-02-13, 05:16
The OP made the mistake of declining BCM's initial offer for a full return w/ no questions asked, wherein he decided to bash them even more for not supplying to him more information about the issue. BCM declined to provide additional info at that juncture (as is their prerogative) and the OP still refused to send it back....opting instead to bash BCM further.
If the OP thinks that BCM wasn't reading the thread to begin with, I think he now knows otherwise. I wouldn't expect any company to get bad mouthed and still extend the same olive branch...especially when their initial offer to completely resolve the problem was swift and generous.
It would appear that the OP looked the gift-horse in the mouth.
Exactly.
This is what leads me to believe that this is a "gotcha" thread.
BCM offered to make things right.
The OP decline and went on a full retard Barfcom rage.
Do we even know the barrel is being measured correctly?
Do we even know the barrel is being measured correctly?
According to OP, yes. In reality: who knows?
Sorry, but the parade has been rained out.
Robb Jensen
05-02-13, 05:34
Enough to see here.
Questions asked, questions answered, company offered refund, other brands of barrels are apparently "inconsistent" too. It's a crazy world with dogs and cats living together, 2x4s don't actually measure 2" x 4".
Leave the basement, turn off the XBox, discover women ;)
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.