View Full Version : "9mm doesn't perform against heavy winter clothing..."
So sayeth the head firearms guy at my department.
Quick back-story:
We are currently issuing the Glock model 22's, and have been having nothing but trouble with them(that's a story for another time.)
We are going to be getting rid of the G22's soon, and we might just end up going with the M&P. However, there is the possibility that Glock will be able to do a straight across swap and replace our .40's with 9mm or .45 Gen 4 guns. I personally could see some advantages to the 9mm. Softer shooter and smaller gun for our smaller officers, cheaper ammo, high capacity, holsters and mag pouches shouldn't need to be replaced.
I've discussed this with my head rangemaster, and he has made it clear that he doesn't like the idea of a 9mm. He said that our department tested 9mm years ago and they didn't perform well against heavy winter clothing, which is a concern being in Colorado.
I told him that it was my understanding that newer HP ammo has improved to the point that 9mm will do just fine now, and he mentioned that he spoke with some firearms rep a while back who told him that the newest 9mm ammo is ok, but you have to get +p+ in order for it to work well. My boss doesn't like that idea, and says that will put us back up into the pressure range of .40 cal. and the ammo is more expensive.
We currently issue Speer gold dot for duty ammo, if that matters.
My question for anyone inclined to help me is this:
How well does high quality(gold dot?) 9mm ammo perform against someone in heavy winter clothing, and what load would you recommend (thoughts on the +p+ issue?)
And more importantly, can you point me towards any testing or documentation that I can present to my boss to back this up? (if I just tell him "9mm is fine, the internet told me so", I might not get very far.)
Thanks for the help,
-burke
S. Galbraith
04-28-13, 18:24
There is some truth to it the winter clothing story......but not as your rangemaster points out. The diameter of the hollow point, and size of the cavity determine whether it will be prone to plugging up with clothing which will result in no expansion. Even the newer 115gr loads are prone to plugging up with clothing material, and will then not expand. +P+ or standard pressure.....it doesn't matter. No expansion means that you get an expensive FMJ bullet. Many of the lighter .40S&W and .45acp loads can also have plugging problems. Regardless of caliber, it is a good idea to stay within the middle to heavier weight loads.
For a place to start, might show him DocGKR's bio and his experience then from DocGKR's "Thoughts on Service Pistols, along with Duty and Self-Defense Ammo Recommendations" https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887
"Bullet designs like the Silver Tip, Hydra-Shok, and Black Talon were state of the art 15 or 20 years ago. These older bullets tend to plug up and act like FMJ projectiles when shot through heavy clothing; they also often have significant degradation in terminal performance after first passing through intermediate barriers. Modern ammunition which has been designed for robust expansion against clothing and intermediate barriers is significantly superior to the older designs. The bullets in the Federal Classic and Hydrashok line are outperformed by other ATK products such as the Federal Tactical and HST, as well as the Speer Gold Dot; likewise Winchester Ranger Talons are far superior to the old Black Talons or civilian SXT's"
HackerF15E
04-28-13, 19:15
This sounds similar to the ol' "the M1 .30 carbine round just bounced off the heavy winter clothing of the Koreans" myth....
Heavy Metal
04-28-13, 20:48
Wy not just go to Gen 4 22's? It sems Glock fixed the issues with the earlier Gen .40's with the Gen 4s.
So sayeth the head firearms guy at my department.
Quick back-story:
We are currently issuing the Glock model 22's, and have been having nothing but trouble with them(that's a story for another time.)
We are going to be getting rid of the G22's soon, and we might just end up going with the M&P. However, there is the possibility that Glock will be able to do a straight across swap and replace our .40's with 9mm or .45 Gen 4 guns. I personally could see some advantages to the 9mm. Softer shooter and smaller gun for our smaller officers, cheaper ammo, high capacity, holsters and mag pouches shouldn't need to be replaced.
I've discussed this with my head rangemaster, and he has made it clear that he doesn't like the idea of a 9mm. He said that our department tested 9mm years ago and they didn't perform well against heavy winter clothing, which is a concern being in Colorado.
I told him that it was my understanding that newer HP ammo has improved to the point that 9mm will do just fine now, and he mentioned that he spoke with some firearms rep a while back who told him that the newest 9mm ammo is ok, but you have to get +p+ in order for it to work well. My boss doesn't like that idea, and says that will put us back up into the pressure range of .40 cal. and the ammo is more expensive.
We currently issue Speer gold dot for duty ammo, if that matters.
My question for anyone inclined to help me is this:
How well does high quality(gold dot?) 9mm ammo perform against someone in heavy winter clothing, and what load would you recommend (thoughts on the +p+ issue?)
And more importantly, can you point me towards any testing or documentation that I can present to my boss to back this up? (if I just tell him "9mm is fine, the internet told me so", I might not get very far.)
Thanks for the help,
-burke
S. Galbraith
04-28-13, 20:57
This sounds similar to the ol' "the M1 .30 carbine round just bounced off the heavy winter clothing of the Koreans" myth....
There is always a little truth somewhere in the myths. The 110gr military ball load up until the 1970s(redesigned for IDF standards), utilized a reduced o'give resulting in a ballistic coefficient of only .15. I guess the idea behind this was to make a more blunted nose and improve terminal effects. This put the load in the realm of handgun ammunition velocity degeneration at range. At the higher altitudes in Korea, during the subzero temperatures, and at extended ranges......the M1 Carbine's performance was greatly reduced. At 300-400 yards, the 110gr load was cruising under 800fps. I didn't want to damage my chronograph, but at 300 meters I was shooting 1/4" plywood and I would find the projectiles laying on the surface of the burm behind the plywood. No keyholes in the plywood, but greatly reduced velocity.
Even at closer ranges though, the bullet profile didn't allow for a rapid upset. So just like all other handgun cartridges, it just poked holes.... .30 caliber holes. Probably why the carbine and its cartridge didn't last long in the US military, and the millions of carbines in the service were sold off to the civilian and LE markets. Not to mention they ended up in the hands of the Israelis and Vietnamese.
One, we issue the 124gr +P Gold Dot here, and even through some seriously heavy clothing we have never had a bullet fail to expand.
Second, the .30 carbine thing is a myth. At ranges that you can actually hit people with a carbine that bullet is going though heavy clothing, the man wearing it, and out the other side.
My dad fought in Korea and noted that all of the stories he heard about how bad the carbine was were, in his humble opinion, mostly related to guys missing. Since between Korea and Vietnam he had shot a lot of people using a carbine I listened to his opinion.
You may want to look into Hornady's new Critical Duty 9MM ammo. The hollow point cavity is filled with polymer, and designed to penetrate heavy clothing, and other obstacles before it expands.
http://www.hornady.com/store/Critical-Duty/
http://www.hornady.com/store/Critical-DUTY-New
ICANHITHIMMAN
04-29-13, 06:40
My wife's department just upgraded to gen 4 glock 21, its a huge upgrade over the gun they had. However I know what your talking about in regard to dealing with the "RANGE MASTER". Her department is around 1k officers strong and to be a range master/shooting coach, guess what the requirements are............ shoot a 95 out of 100 and at a yearly qual, yep that's it your an expert, now go teach everybody else. Needless to say we both know where that leads. Best of luck convincing him, I might suggest covertly giving the chief the info. I would rather have the 22 myself and not a gen 4 i good sized hands and I consider the pistol a tad on the large side.
There are numerous sources available for assessing ammunition terminal performance other than internet forums of dubious veracity.
As noted, well engineered, quality built, robust expanding modern 9 mm JHP works fine through heavy clothing.
No offense to any range masters here but a few I've been thru are, let's be nice and I'll say: narrow minded and ignorant. Yes they're great shots and can read the course out loud and blow the whistle well...other than that...most don't know jack shit.
Their biases and misinformation is what influences the chiefs...well my guy is the range master, he must know his shit...we'll go w/ his choice of gun/ammo.
No offense to any range masters here but a few I've been thru are, let's be nice and I'll say: narrow minded and ignorant. Yes they're great shots and can read the course out loud and blow the whistle well...other than that...most don't know jack shit.
Their biases and misinformation is what influences the chiefs...well my guy is the range master, he must know his shit...we'll go w/ his choice of gun/ammo.
No offense taken. I have assisted other agencies in dealing with issues that were perpetuated by someone who ran the firing range because they had more seniority than everyone else who was interested in the position. Two agencies were carrying FMJ ammunition, because their chief range officer thought it was a better duty round. When the agency chiefs were provided with unbiased data, they purchased ammunition more suitable for duty use.
147 gr HST in 9mm has no equal in my opinion. Here is some data for your rangemaster...
le.atk.com/downloads/catalogs/HSTInsertPoster.pdf (http://le.atk.com/downloads/catalogs/HSTInsertPoster.pdf)
S. Galbraith
04-29-13, 11:41
One, we issue the 124gr +P Gold Dot here, and even through some seriously heavy clothing we have never had a bullet fail to expand.
Second, the .30 carbine thing is a myth. At ranges that you can actually hit people with a carbine that bullet is going though heavy clothing, the man wearing it, and out the other side.
My dad fought in Korea and noted that all of the stories he heard about how bad the carbine was were, in his humble opinion, mostly related to guys missing. Since between Korea and Vietnam he had shot a lot of people using a carbine I listened to his opinion.
As did my dad, and he qualified expert every time. Based on his combat experience in the mountains of Korea, he would rather have shouldered the extra weight of the Garand and have had observably better results on those routine 300 yard shots. He was issued a M2 for a while, and even at closer ranges he preferred to shoot it in bursts rather than peck away in semiauto.
OP,you have the right idea,but don't get your hopes up too much. Unfortunately,ignorance and misinformation will continue to persist in spite of all the evidence to the contrary. I watched it for 27 years....and I'm an optomist. But, good luck to you.
Colorado Springs PD uses M&P 9mm with no complaints that I've heard from OIS
EnSerioJose
04-29-13, 14:15
You may want to look into Hornady's new Critical Duty 9MM ammo. The hollow point cavity is filled with polymer, and designed to penetrate heavy clothing, and other obstacles before it expands.
http://www.hornady.com/store/Critical-Duty/
http://www.hornady.com/store/Critical-DUTY-New
Beat me to it! This is what I've been carrying and its ran flawlessly at the range.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=125566
Some people sing the Hornady Critical Defense praises, but I've never understood that after looking at side by side testing.
As did my dad, and he qualified expert every time. Based on his combat experience in the mountains of Korea, he would rather have shouldered the extra weight of the Garand and have had observably better results on those routine 300 yard shots. He was issued a M2 for a while, and even at closer ranges he preferred to shoot it in bursts rather than peck away in semiauto.
My dad was a Camp Perry shooter, and a sniper at one point. He liked the M1 a lot, and really liked the "black tip" AP ammo for it as he could reach through stuff to get at bad guys. In Korea he carried a carbine as basically a BUG because when there was a human wave coming in he thought the M1/2 carbine bested the M1 Garand when the bad guys got closer than 100 yards, or at night, etc.
He really like a Browning air cooled MG, or a quad .50, but I'm getting way off track on this thread.
packinaglock
04-30-13, 18:46
Some people sing the Hornady Critical Defense praises, but I've never understood that after looking at side by side testing.
Same here.
The 9mm penetrates clothing, and other things at least as good, likely better, than most other handgun calibers, especially the 45. It has good sectional density and velocity. The issue is that if the HP plugs up with heavy clothing, all you get is the FMJ, as previously mentioned. The same thing will happen with the other "better" calibers but a 40 or 45 FMJ is better than a 9mm fmj. With the latest HP ammo of the last few years, this issue has been largly resolved.
Anyway, handgun hits to the body, heavy clothing or not, should be considered only good to distract the target long enough to allow you to get a propert CNS hit (head shot)...regardless of caliber.
There isn't any need to explore different suppliers. Portland (OR) PD and NYPD each carry Speer Gold Dot +P 124gr, and has great success with them. It is worth noting that heavy jackets and layers are very common in these areas.
I just remembered a conversation with our coroner from several years ago, when we had problems with our brand new G22s and I was trying to get my department back into 9mms.
In talking to Doc about the level of BS present in the cop world ref wound ballistics and how some folks wanted to stick with the .40 because of "stopping power", regardless of whether the guns worked or not. Doc tells me he'd rather have a 9mm because in his observation they are easier to get good hits with (he was also a shooter) and he thought that JHPs in 9mm consistently expanded more reliably than the .40s. Doc being a regional coroner who was involved in basically every OIS investigation in the entire area gave him the opportunity to see a rather large number of OIS's involving different calibers and brands of ammo. He also saw quite a few street shootings/murders as well.
I know testing might show a different outcome, and this is one guy with one set of data points, but I found it both interesting and useful none the less.
As I noted, we get a real winter here and folks can be wearing some serious clothing, yet our 124gr +P Gold Dot and Ranger-T ammo has never failed to expand in any of our OIS's.
There isn't any need to explore different suppliers. Portland (OR) PD and NYPD each carry Speer Gold Dot +P 124gr, and has great success with them. It is worth noting that heavy jackets and layers are very common in these areas.
Chicago also went to this load for folks carrying 9mms. I hear it gets cold there sometimes ;-)
As usual, tpd223 is right on!
The 124 gr +P Gold Dot, HST's in 147 (P9HST2) and 124 +P (P9HST3), as well as Ranger Talon 147 (RA9T) and 124 +P (RA9124TP) all are robust expanding and work fine against heavy clothing.
HackerF15E
05-02-13, 12:30
There is always a little truth somewhere in the myths. The 110gr military ball load up until the 1970s(redesigned for IDF standards), utilized a reduced o'give resulting in a ballistic coefficient of only .15. I guess the idea behind this was to make a more blunted nose and improve terminal effects. This put the load in the realm of handgun ammunition velocity degeneration at range. At the higher altitudes in Korea, during the subzero temperatures, and at extended ranges......the M1 Carbine's performance was greatly reduced. At 300-400 yards, the 110gr load was cruising under 800fps. I didn't want to damage my chronograph, but at 300 meters I was shooting 1/4" plywood and I would find the projectiles laying on the surface of the burm behind the plywood. No keyholes in the plywood, but greatly reduced velocity.
Even at closer ranges though, the bullet profile didn't allow for a rapid upset. So just like all other handgun cartridges, it just poked holes.... .30 caliber holes. Probably why the carbine and its cartridge didn't last long in the US military, and the millions of carbines in the service were sold off to the civilian and LE markets. Not to mention they ended up in the hands of the Israelis and Vietnamese.
In addition to that, there is a lot of discussion about the impact of temperature on the H110/W296 powder. I've heard that extreme cold impacts the rate which that powder burns, and that could have seriously slowed down the muzzle velocity (thus significantly reducing the power and lethality).
Either way, the "bounced off heavy/frozen winter coats" is bunk.
.30 carbine ball acts a lot like awe inspiring .38 special lead round nose...
Put a modern expanding bullet in a .30 carbine and terminal performance improves dramatically.
http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/DocGKR/M1CarbineWP.jpg
Doc Safari
05-02-13, 15:46
Since this thread his kind of gone the route of "myth busted" I'd like to know more about why the G22's were so bad they were rejected in favor of 9mm's.
Alaskapopo
05-02-13, 19:29
So sayeth the head firearms guy at my department.
Quick back-story:
We are currently issuing the Glock model 22's, and have been having nothing but trouble with them(that's a story for another time.)
We are going to be getting rid of the G22's soon, and we might just end up going with the M&P. However, there is the possibility that Glock will be able to do a straight across swap and replace our .40's with 9mm or .45 Gen 4 guns. I personally could see some advantages to the 9mm. Softer shooter and smaller gun for our smaller officers, cheaper ammo, high capacity, holsters and mag pouches shouldn't need to be replaced.
I've discussed this with my head rangemaster, and he has made it clear that he doesn't like the idea of a 9mm. He said that our department tested 9mm years ago and they didn't perform well against heavy winter clothing, which is a concern being in Colorado.
I told him that it was my understanding that newer HP ammo has improved to the point that 9mm will do just fine now, and he mentioned that he spoke with some firearms rep a while back who told him that the newest 9mm ammo is ok, but you have to get +p+ in order for it to work well. My boss doesn't like that idea, and says that will put us back up into the pressure range of .40 cal. and the ammo is more expensive.
We currently issue Speer gold dot for duty ammo, if that matters.
My question for anyone inclined to help me is this:
How well does high quality(gold dot?) 9mm ammo perform against someone in heavy winter clothing, and what load would you recommend (thoughts on the +p+ issue?)
And more importantly, can you point me towards any testing or documentation that I can present to my boss to back this up? (if I just tell him "9mm is fine, the internet told me so", I might not get very far.)
Thanks for the help,
-burke
It performs fine against heavy clothing. Heavy clothing just makes the expansion slower and the pentration greater. APD had a shooting against a large pacific islander and the officer in quesiton was using 147 grain HST and it worked fine. (Most APD guys carry .40's and .45's but some carry the 9mm)
Pat
I dont want to get too far into the weeds...but...does anyone have any anecdotal data from the German or British military use of the 9mm from WWI or WWII? The 9mm seemed ubiquitous and was used in very cold climates against folks in heavy coats. Granted, I'm sure pistols and subguns took a back seat to belt feds and arty, but they were very common. We hear about how great the 45 ACP was but can anyone find anything on the 9mm?
"Heavy clothing just makes the expansion slower and the pentration greater."
Generally, rate of expansion is about the same in heavy clothing (this can be tested using thin slabs of gel); the bullet just does not expand to as large a diameter as in bare gel, so penetration is deeper due to reduced drag.
Alaskapopo
05-03-13, 18:01
Generally, rate of expansion is about the same in heavy clothing (this can be tested using thin slabs of gel); the bullet just does not expand to as large a diameter as in bare gel, so penetration is deeper due to reduced drag.
Thanks for the clarificaiton.
Pat
Alaskapopo
05-03-13, 18:03
I dont want to get too far into the weeds...but...does anyone have any anecdotal data from the German or British military use of the 9mm from WWI or WWII? The 9mm seemed ubiquitous and was used in very cold climates against folks in heavy coats. Granted, I'm sure pistols and subguns took a back seat to belt feds and arty, but they were very common. We hear about how great the 45 ACP was but can anyone find anything on the 9mm?
The military was using FMJ which would be the least effected by heavy clothing.
Pat
S. Galbraith
05-03-13, 22:18
I dont want to get too far into the weeds...but...does anyone have any anecdotal data from the German or British military use of the 9mm from WWI or WWII? The 9mm seemed ubiquitous and was used in very cold climates against folks in heavy coats. Granted, I'm sure pistols and subguns took a back seat to belt feds and arty, but they were very common. We hear about how great the 45 ACP was but can anyone find anything on the 9mm?
The most accurate subgun of WWII was the German MP44. Even though it was full auto only, its slow rate of fire and vertical magazine grip allowed it to engage targets decently out to around 75yrds(the typical engagement ranges for the era). However, the practical range was out to 50 yards. It was not used at long enough ranges to show any penetration shortcomings due to the unaerodynamic bullet design.
The .30 Carbine does not use a spitzer bullet, its ballistic coefficient is in the same category as a service caliber handgun bullet, and its sectional density is poor. These characteristics cause it to slow down considerably at longer ranges. It loses over half of its velocity at 300 yrds, and at high elevation in subzero temperatures it slows down even more. The 9mm would do even worse if it was used at those ranges.
Do you mean MP38/40?
MP44/StG44 fires 7.92x33mm and is quite effective out to 300 m...
S. Galbraith
05-04-13, 07:22
Do you mean MP38/40?
MP44/StG44 fires 7.92x33mm and is quite effective out to 300 m...
Yep, I often get the number designators mixed up. Thanks. :D
I dont want to get too far into the weeds...but...does anyone have any anecdotal data from the German or British military use of the 9mm from WWI or WWII? The 9mm seemed ubiquitous and was used in very cold climates against folks in heavy coats. Granted, I'm sure pistols and subguns took a back seat to belt feds and arty, but they were very common. We hear about how great the 45 ACP was but can anyone find anything on the 9mm?
I'm guessing the vast majority of people shot with 9mms in war time have been hit with rounds launched from a sub-gun.
I think that the fact that 9mm ball will get through a grown man from almost any angle may help it being effective in some circumstances.
And, many flavors of 9mm FMJ will yaw given the right circumstances.
Just one easy example;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0ulf-1aH44&feature=player_embedded
I know from first hand testing, and lots of second hand info from Army SRT tests, that 9mm NATO can be counted on to get through many barriers that a troops might be wearing, such as full canteens, ammo pouches, steel helmets, etc. .45 FMJ and 9mm JHPs often do not get through these same barriers.
One example is that actual US Army issue NM 230gr .45 wouldn't get through an old M1 steel helmet and liner, just leaving a dent, some old Nazi 9mm ammo I had would punch through both sides.
One example is that actual US Army issue NM 230gr .45 wouldn't get through an old M1 steel helmet and liner, just leaving a dent, some old Nazi 9mm ammo I had would punch through both sides.
Here's what I found on the web to support this:
SPRINGFIELD ARMORY
RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT DIVISION
MEMORANDUM REPORT SA-MR 20-2100
L O Spaulding/lv
24 August 1948
SUBJECT:
Effective Penetration Range of 9mm Parabellum Ammunition.
OBJECT:
To determine the greatest range at which the subject ammunition will penetrate the M1 helmet.
SUMMARY:
M1 helmets were fired at using different 9mm ammunition to determine the greatest penetration range. A Canadian 9mm Parabellum ammunition having a velocity of 1250 f/s penetrated the M1 helmet at 130 yards, which was further than any of the other ammunition tested.
REFERENCE:
Project TS2-7875-2024 J O 7875-6160
MATERIAL:
1. Weapons
a. Browning FN 9mm Pistol, HP Inglis-Canada, Serial Number 8T2367
b. Colt Automatic Pistol, Cal .45, 1911A1, Serial Number 1651407
2. Ammunition
a. Special 9mm Parabellum cases and Cal .38 S&W Special Bullets (Metal clad, 158 grains) and loaded to a velocity of 850 f/s.
b. Winchester 9mm Parabellum, 116 grain bullet, Lot WRA22026, 1,150 f/s instrumental velocity at 53 feet.
c. Cartridges, Ball, 9mm M1, 116 grain bullet (Parabellum) (Code T2CAB) Lot DIL- 617 (Canadian) 1,250 f/s instrumental velocity at 53 feet.
d. Pistol Ball Cal .45 M1911, Lot E C S25250.
3. M1 Helmets
4. Outdoor range facilities
PROCEDURE:
An M1 helmet was placed on top of a stake, back of which a target was set up to facilitate aiming and to lend support to the helmet. The 9mm Canadian pistol was then fired from a muzzle and elbow rest at the helmet. In the event the helmet was pierced, it was moved away from the shooter 10 yards and the procedure repeated until failure to pierce the helmet resulted. This procedure was followed with the special 9mm ammunition and with the high and low velocity 9mm ammunition. A similar test was run using a Colt Cal .45.
RESULTS:
1. The special 9mm Parabellum case with a Cal 38 S&W bullet penetrated the M1 helmet at 50 yards, but not 60 yards.
2. The Winchester 9mm Parabellum (1,150 f/s velocity) penetrated the M1 helmet at 120 yards, but not at 130 yards.
3. The Canadian 9mm Parabellum (1,250 f/s velocity) penetrated the M1 helmet at 130 yards, but due to lack of longer range facilities was not fired beyond this point.
4. The Cal .45 ammunition penetrated the helmet at 30 yards, but not at 35 yards.
CONCLUSION:
It is concluded that the Canadian 9mm Parabellum ammunition with the 1250 f/s velocity, had a longer range penetration power than any of the other ammunition tested.
Prepared By: L O Spaulding, Ordnance Engineer
H F Hawthorne, Ordnance Engineer
E W Hopkins, Head Ordnance Engineer
Beat Trash
05-04-13, 09:41
OP, you're unfortunate if you have an individual in your agency charged with ammunition selection who's base of information is phrased, "I've heard that... blah blah blah..." I've had to suffer the same types of individuals for the last 20 years. Sometimes they can be pointed in the right direction. Sometimes you feel as if you are banging your head on a wall. But sometimes if you bang your head hard enough, you can actually break through the wall!
There is actual data out there and available. If you review the data, it all basically says the same thing. And that would be that there are several modern 9mm loads that will work in the winter time against heavy clothing. The same loads work rather well in the summer also.
Many have mentioned the Speer Gold Dot loading. Great loading, but yes it is a +P loading.
If you don't want to use a +P load there are also alternatives.
My agency shot folks in need of shooting with the standard pressure Winchester 147 gr JHP loading for almost 23 years. Penetration was not an issue. Reliable expansion was. We have recently transitioned to the Winchester 147 gr Ranger T series (RA9T). The first OIS involved a suspect taking cover behind a vehicle. One round struck the suspect in the neck. I spoke with a Homicide investigator who attended the autopsy. His only comment about the performance of the new duty round was, "Damn!"
Come visit the Queen city in the winter some time. But bring your coat, it gets cold.
Many "Gun People" look at caliber choice as if choosing for themselves, and only for themselves. This is great if you are choosing a personal weapon. But if you are tasked with making input or decisions for an agency, things a bit more involved. You must take into consideration the "average" shooter's skill within your agency.
Not all officers devote the time and dedication to perfect their skill that they should. That's just the reality of it. A good 9mm pistol and loading will allow your officers with weaker shooting skills to more effectively put rounds on target. That is what it should be all about!
One example is that actual US Army issue NM 230gr .45 wouldn't get through an old M1 steel helmet and liner, just leaving a dent, some old Nazi 9mm ammo I had would punch through both sides.
However, it is known that a .45 bullet, denting a steel helmet, will cause instant incapacitation and unconsciousness for days and that a 9mm bullet, penetrating a helmet and the brain, will leave the wearer with a head ache and eventual death in perhaps 20-30 years....
Sorry, I couldn't resist. :D
9mm... .40... .45ACP... Phooey... .51 Gyrojet, FTW!
Alaskapopo
05-04-13, 11:57
OP, you're unfortunate if you have an individual in your agency charged with ammunition selection who's base of information is phrased, "I've heard that... blah blah blah..." I've had to suffer the same types of individuals for the last 20 years. Sometimes they can be pointed in the right direction. Sometimes you feel as if you are banging your head on a wall. But sometimes if you bang your head hard enough, you can actually break through the wall!
There is actual data out there and available. If you review the data, it all basically says the same thing. And that would be that there are several modern 9mm loads that will work in the winter time against heavy clothing. The same loads work rather well in the summer also.
Many have mentioned the Speer Gold Dot loading. Great loading, but yes it is a +P loading.
If you don't want to use a +P load there are also alternatives.
My agency shot folks in need of shooting with the standard pressure Winchester 147 gr JHP loading for almost 23 years. Penetration was not an issue. Reliable expansion was. We have recently transitioned to the Winchester 147 gr Ranger T series (RA9T). The first OIS involved a suspect taking cover behind a vehicle. One round struck the suspect in the neck. I spoke with a Homicide investigator who attended the autopsy. His only comment about the performance of the new duty round was, "Damn!"
Come visit the Queen city in the winter some time. But bring your coat, it gets cold.
Many "Gun People" look at caliber choice as if choosing for themselves, and only for themselves. This is great if you are choosing a personal weapon. But if you are tasked with making input or decisions for an agency, things a bit more involved. You must take into consideration the "average" shooter's skill within your agency.
Not all officers devote the time and dedication to perfect their skill that they should. That's just the reality of it. A good 9mm pistol and loading will allow your officers with weaker shooting skills to more effectively put rounds on target. That is what it should be all about!
A good 9mm pistol will also be easier for those with great skill to shoot as well. I hate the assumption that those who shoot the 9mm have less skill. Some of us value a greater rate of fire and increased magazine capacity over a theoretical edge in so called stopping power.
Pat
.............................................
Many "Gun People" look at caliber choice as if choosing for themselves, and only for themselves. This is great if you are choosing a personal weapon. But if you are tasked with making input or decisions for an agency, things a bit more involved. You must take into consideration the "average" shooter's skill within your agency.
Not all officers devote the time and dedication to perfect their skill that they should. That's just the reality of it. A good 9mm pistol and loading will allow your officers with weaker shooting skills to more effectively put rounds on target. That is what it should be all about!
I believe that this is one of the most important considerations when selecting a service pistol caliber for an agency.
[QUOTE=Alaskapopo;1633354]A good 9mm pistol will also be easier for those with great skill to shoot as well. I hate the assumption that those who shoot the 9mm have less skill. Some of us value a greater rate of fire and increased magazine capacity over a theoretical edge in so called stopping power.
Pa. /QUOTE]
I recently switched from a .45 to a 9 and my FAST drill instantly dropped by a quarter of a second.
I agree with you, but I don't think he was saying only less-skilled shooters use 9mm. He said 9mm is easier for less skilled users to shoot.
Beat Trash
05-04-13, 13:37
If I have the impression that I was making an argument that a 9mm was only for those of lesser skill, that was not my intent. Far from it.
The 9mm has a lot to offer, no matter the skill level.
When off duty, I could carry any pistol caliber I wished. I carry a 9mm loaded with Winchester 147 gr RA9T.
Alaskapopo
05-04-13, 21:29
If I have the impression that I was making an argument that a 9mm was only for those of lesser skill, that was not my intent. Far from it.
The 9mm has a lot to offer, no matter the skill level.
When off duty, I could carry any pistol caliber I wished. I carry a 9mm loaded with Winchester 147 gr RA9T.
Sorry I took the wrong meaning from your post. Here in Alaska 9mm shooters are looked down upon so I get it a lot. Most of our states training is based on Gun Sight circa 1992 which may instill a workable base its hopelessly outdated. Thankfully Anchorage PD is moving to the ISO stance.
Pat
There isn't any need to explore different suppliers. Portland (OR) PD and NYPD each carry Speer Gold Dot +P 124gr, and has great success with them. It is worth noting that heavy jackets and layers are very common in these areas.
The last I looked, Portland was using 147 grain HST. Why the change?
Alaskapopo
05-13-13, 11:43
The last I looked, Portland was using 147 grain HST. Why the change?
Also Gold dot has a problem with excess penetration after heavy clothing especially in the 9mm flavors. Some times as much as 20 inches in genatine. NYPD's shooting at the empire state building had several people hit from bullets that passes through the subject from my understanding. Here in Alaska we do use heavy clothing and the 147 grain HST has worked well in a shooting a few months back with one large agency.
Pat
Also Gold dot has a problem with excess penetration after heavy clothing especially in the 9mm flavors. Some times as much as 20 inches in genatine. NYPD's shooting at the empire state building had several people hit from bullets that passes through the subject from my understanding. Here in Alaska we do use heavy clothing and the 147 grain HST has worked well in a shooting a few months back with one large agency.
Pat
We ain't Alaska, but Kansas can really cold at times, well below zero.
We have been issuing the 124gr +P Gold Dot for over 20 years. Except for the first generation loads we have never had the issues you describe in any of our OISs.
The 124 gr +P Gold Dots work just fine against heavy clothing, as do most other Gold Dots: http://le.atk.com/downloads/catalogs/GoldDotPoster.pdf
The last I looked, Portland was using 147 grain HST. Why the change?
No idea. I'm not LE. I work in a shop in the area, and have a lot of friendly acquaintances from local departments. As context would indicate, the ones I meet through work are almost all "gun people", and a couple are pretty chatty when there aren't a lot of other people around. That's the extent of how information about what they use filters to me. I don't claim to have insider info.
Gentleman, thank you all for the extremely helpful and informative responses. And specifically thank you to DocGKR for sending me quite a bit of very helpful documentation that should aid me greatly as I proceed to bang my head against the wall(as Beat-Trash so aptly phrased it.)
We have at this point pretty much completely given up on GLOCK. I would be more than happy to share the details of that long painful experience with anyone who is interested, but out of respect to that company and the outstanding people that have done everything in their power to help us, I would like to keep that discussion restricted to PM or email. Feel free to contact me directly if you would like some more details.
We are going to be testing the M&P series of pistols, in 9, 40 and 45. I expect most officers to prefer, and shoot better with, the 9mm. At that point I will have to break through the wall to convince the powers that be that 9mm is good to go. The information I have already received here will be invaluable in that endeavor. The information available at http://le.atk.com/ alone should help to shed some light on the issue. Thank you to everyone who pointed me to that website.
The only question that I have not been able to find a good answer for, is regarding the +P ammo. I know it is more of a subjective question, and not something that can be answered with specific facts, but does the +P ammo give you a significant increase in felt recoil and wear and tear on the weapon? Is shooting a 9mm in +P going to feel the same as shooting a .40 caliber? Because if that is the case, than it would seem that there isn't any real advantage of the 9mm over .40 caliber.
Thanks again for all the help,
-burke
While I prefer the characteristics of 9 mm 147 gr ammo, there is nothing wrong with 124 gr +P; there are a lot of variables, but it does not feel as sharp as .40 to me in pistols like the Glock, S&W, or Sig.
NYPD's shooting at the empire state building had several people hit from bullets that passes through the subject from my understanding.
I thought the bystanders hit were from misses, not 'pass through', but I may be wrong, time to google...
I thought the bystanders hit were from misses, not 'pass through', but I may be wrong, time to google...
It would be interesting to know for sure. As I recall the shooter was wearing a suit, in which the material may have plugged the HP cavity more than your typical denim.
Voodoo_Man
05-16-13, 19:26
I have seen .25 and .32 go through winter clothing.
Our issued 9mm 147gr HST and our .45 230gr HST do a number on any clothing.
It would be interesting to know for sure. As I recall the shooter was wearing a suit, in which the material may have plugged the HP cavity more than your typical denim.
I think they use four pieces of denim to simulate any and all clothes fabric.
I found this: "Six of the nine bystanders wounded on Friday were hit by shrapnel caused when the hollow bullets fragmented as they ricocheted off the planters, and three by bullets, police said." (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/27/us-usa-shooting-empirestate-police-idUSBRE87Q04X20120827)
So it seems that three bullets missed the threat and hit bystanders. I can't seem to find how many bullets hit the perpetrator.
We issue the 124gr +P Gold Dot at my job, use either the 124gr Federal AE or Speer Lawman or Blazer for training ammo. Very little difference in recoil. Not at all the same as a .40, and none of our LBOs have any issues with handling the guns.
I prefer the 124+P in 9mm but would carry a 147 T Series or HST and not give it a second thought. Although perceived recoil is subjective, I find the 9mm+P is not nearly as snappy as the 40 S&W. I don't worry about "carrying only a 9mm", winter clothing or not.
The four layer denim (4LD) test is NOT designed to simulate any type of clothing--it is simply an engineering test to assess the ability of a projectile to resist plugging and robustly expand. FWIW, one of the senior engineers at a very respected handgun ammunition manufacturer has commented that bullets that do well in 4LD testing have invariably worked well in actual officer involved shooting incidents. Most handgun bullets recovered from human tissue in surgery or at autopsy tend to look very similar to those same type of projectiles after 4LD testing.
Most handgun bullets recovered from human tissue in surgery or at autopsy tend to look very similar to those same type of projectiles after 4LD testing.
That has been exactly what I have observed here locally, particularly with our issued 124gr +P Gold Dot.
Six Feet Under
07-18-13, 08:58
Ranger SXT 127gr +P+ from approximately two feet away, through a thick cotton sweatshirt and thin long sleeve cotton shirt:
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/27258_10150173937675413_5582113_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/12935_348822705412_3930273_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/27258_10150173934345413_4160768_n.jpg
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/12935_373521940412_3544944_n.jpg
Three weeks after, when I got the cast off.
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/12935_364140770412_1597815_n.jpg
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/12935_374719385412_42563_n.jpg
The aftermath.
Six Feet Under
07-19-13, 19:29
I tried posting some pictures from my shooting in here but it said the post had to be approved by a moderator? :confused:
Anyways, when they show up I'll delete this one. Winchester Ranger 127gr SXT +P+ from approximately two feet away, entered above my elbow and exited below it (dude was off to a 45 degree angle on my right side behind me), the round shattered my distal humerus completely and grazed my left knee after exiting my arm. The bullet and jacket separated upon exiting my arm and ricocheted off a desk and landed about 12-18" from each other. I was wearing a thick hooded sweatshirt and a rather thin long-sleeve t-shirt underneath it because it was two days after Thanksgiving 2009.
Not sure if it was the combination of clothing and the fact that the round very squarely impacted the thickest part of the bone in my arm or what, but it must have used up the majority of the round's energy because the desk in question was made out of particleboard and had a cut/dent in it but the round did not penetrate the desk. Required two plates and 17 screws to fix, surgery took 5 1/2 hours, and I was in the hospital for three days.
That happened on Saturday, stopped taking Vicodin six days later on Friday, and started my ten months of therapy about seven weeks after the shooting. Went back and finished the police academy (I was halfway through when this happened, on break for the holidays) and can lift weights and do push-ups as well, none of which I was ever supposed to be able to do again.
The four layer denim (4LD) test is NOT designed to simulate any type of clothing--it is simply an engineering test to assess the ability of a projectile to resist plugging and robustly expand. FWIW, one of the senior engineers at a very respected handgun ammunition manufacturer has commented that bullets that do well in 4LD testing have invariably worked well in actual officer involved shooting incidents. Most handgun bullets recovered from human tissue in surgery or at autopsy tend to look very similar to those same type of projectiles after 4LD testing.
Precisely! I see considerable criticism of the Hornady Critical Defense and Critical Duty loads. However, you cannot just dismiss the test results (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJZFZFmBKa0).
Six Feet Under
07-28-13, 06:10
Entry:
https://sphotos-b-mia.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/27258_10150173937675413_5582113_n.jpg
Exit:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/12935_348822705412_3930273_n.jpg
Damage:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/27258_10150173934345413_4160768_n.jpg
Repairs:
https://sphotos-a-mia.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/12935_374719385412_42563_n.jpg
https://sphotos-a-mia.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/34248_10150212692830413_7831759_n.jpg
Aftermath (3 weeks post shooting):
https://sphotos-b-mia.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/12935_373521940412_3544944_n.jpg
https://sphotos-b-mia.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/12935_364140770412_1597815_n.jpg
I tried posting some pictures from my shooting in here but it said the post had to be approved by a moderator? :confused:
Anyways, when they show up I'll delete this one. Winchester Ranger 127gr SXT +P+ from approximately two feet away, entered above my elbow and exited below it (dude was off to a 45 degree angle on my right side behind me), the round shattered my distal humerus completely and grazed my left knee after exiting my arm. The bullet and jacket separated upon exiting my arm and ricocheted off a desk and landed about 12-18" from each other. I was wearing a thick hooded sweatshirt and a rather thin long-sleeve t-shirt underneath it because it was two days after Thanksgiving 2009.
Not sure if it was the combination of clothing and the fact that the round very squarely impacted the thickest part of the bone in my arm or what, but it must have used up the majority of the round's energy because the desk in question was made out of particleboard and had a cut/dent in it but the round did not penetrate the desk. Required two plates and 17 screws to fix, surgery took 5 1/2 hours, and I was in the hospital for three days.
That happened on Saturday, stopped taking Vicodin six days later on Friday, and started my ten months of therapy about seven weeks after the shooting. Went back and finished the police academy (I was halfway through when this happened, on break for the holidays) and can lift weights and do push-ups as well, none of which I was ever supposed to be able to do again.
How did this happen? Negligent discharge?
NeoNeanderthal
07-28-13, 11:10
Pretty similar to littlelebowskis gunshot wound. You guys should start a club! I'm interested to know if it was an ND or what as well. Also, (hope its not to personal. Feel free to tell me to F*ck off) how did it effect you?IE could you have fought if you needed to? Total loss of your right arm mobility?
Six Feet Under
07-28-13, 12:28
Pretty similar to littlelebowskis gunshot wound. You guys should start a club! I'm interested to know if it was an ND or what as well. Also, (hope its not to personal. Feel free to tell me to F*ck off) how did it effect you?IE could you have fought if you needed to? Total loss of your right arm mobility?
At first, I didn't realize it had hit me - I was looking around because I heard the gun go off and knew what that noise was, but couldn't find out what it had hit until I looked down and saw my sweatshirt turning red. I did freak out a little bit because for some reason it sounded more like a shotgun than a handgun to me, so I automatically concluded that I had a shredded limb (life long fear, to be honest). Once I got in front of a mirror and could really see what happened, the first thing I thought, as morbid as it is, was "oh, there's only two holes, I'll be fine."
Never knew I could get that angry and go cold like that, both emotions were a first. I've never had anybody try to kill me, but I guess that's what my brain took it as because all I wanted to do was make him pay for what he did. My right arm was totally screwed and after a few minutes it hurt too bad to let it hang because the bone was completely shattered and anything at or below the elbow was only connected by tissue, so I had to hold my right wrist with my left hand anytime I moved.
One-handed shooting and malfunction clearance became a priority after that. All in all, this may sound weird, but it was one of the better experiences in my life because it taught me a lot about myself and my ability to stay focused and accomplish things I would have previously written off as "can't be done." I wish I could have learned all of the things I did without going through that situation, but life doesn't work that way. Last I heard, dumbass had shot out a window in his camper, so obviously he learned nothing.
NeoNeanderthal
07-28-13, 12:36
Last I heard, dumbass had shot out a window in his camper, so obviously he learned nothing.
*sigh* That makes me incredibly sad. That really sucks, hoping you sued the guy or pressed charges. Some people man.
A friend owns an apartment complex and one of his tenants had an ND through the wall into another apartment, a kids bedroom actually. He didnt get kicked out or anything.
Six Feet Under
07-28-13, 20:55
Some people never learn. He'll be one of them.
I honestly have no sympathy for him whatsoever. I would have had zero issues with it at the time, other than the potential loss of my lifelong dream job, had he apologized. People make mistakes, and although that is a pretty big mistake that had serious consequences and could have been ten times worse, I'd have forgiven him. We were joking and laughing at the hospital two hours after it happened. My parents were more emotionally affected in the long term by it than I was. Now it's just something to reflect on and use to motivate myself to be better than I was yesterday. That surgeon telling my dad I wouldn't be able to get much use back out of my arm and the police academy was a definite no made him break down in tears and I've never seen the man cry in my entire life. Mom still has mild panic attacks whenever she thinks about what happened.
Choosing to deflect all the blame on me (not sure how that works out in his mind, but okay) and then bragging and laughing about it in the days that followed closed the door for anything other than hoping he has a rough life from here on out. I don't carry around the animosity I did immediately following the shooting, but if he burst into flames next to me tomorrow, I'd still pee my pants before I'd piss on him to put him out. Fool me once, and all that...
Should we say as compared to what?
skullworks
07-30-13, 08:02
The only question that I have not been able to find a good answer for, is regarding the +P ammo. I know it is more of a subjective question, and not something that can be answered with specific facts, but does the +P ammo give you a significant increase in felt recoil and wear and tear on the weapon? Is shooting a 9mm in +P going to feel the same as shooting a .40 caliber? Because if that is the case, than it would seem that there isn't any real advantage of the 9mm over .40 caliber.
The Swedish police are issued SIG:s in all kinds of flavors, all chambered for 9x19 loaded with 124 gr Speer Gold Dot. I believe the SIG:s tend to wear out pretty damn quick (hammers are replaced every time the firearms receives their annual maintenance).
The Swedish Armed Forces on the other hand are issued the Glock 17 and 19 and they use the m/39B cartridge, which is a +P ball round (a picture showing the thick Tombac jacket can be found here (http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg94/DKconfiguration/M39B.jpg), and a short thread discussing it can be found here (http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=5&f=20&t=92951).) That ball ammo will wear out a SIG in short order whereas Glock's warranty to the Swedish Armed Forces is 40,000 rounds for the barrel, slide, and frame. I know of G17:s that have chewed through 60,000 m/39B before needing replacement (usually the slide will end up getting a stress fracture below the ejection port.)
skullworks
07-30-13, 08:07
The only question that I have not been able to find a good answer for, is regarding the +P ammo. I know it is more of a subjective question, and not something that can be answered with specific facts, but does the +P ammo give you a significant increase in felt recoil and wear and tear on the weapon? Is shooting a 9mm in +P going to feel the same as shooting a .40 caliber? Because if that is the case, than it would seem that there isn't any real advantage of the 9mm over .40 caliber.
The Swedish police are issued SIG:s in all kinds of flavors, all chambered for 9x19 loaded with +P 124 gr Speer Gold Dot. I believe the SIG:s tend to wear out pretty damn quick (hammers are replaced every time the firearms receives their annual maintenance).
The Swedish Armed Forces on the other hand are issued the Glock 17 and 19 and they use the m/39B cartridge, which is a +P ball round with an uncommonly thick Tombac jacket (a picture can be found here (http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg94/DKconfiguration/M39B.jpg), and a short thread discussing it can be found here (http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=5&f=20&t=92951).) That ball ammo will wear out a SIG in short order whereas Glock's warranty to the Swedish Armed Forces is 40,000 rounds for the barrel, slide, and frame. I know of G17:s that have chewed through 60,000 m/39B before needing replacement (usually the slide will end up getting a stress fracture below the ejection port.)
The Swedish police are issued SIG:s in all kinds of flavors, all chambered for 9x19 loaded with +P 124 gr Speer Gold Dot. I believe the SIG:s tend to wear out pretty damn quick (hammers are replaced every time the firearms receives their annual maintenance).
The Swedish Armed Forces on the other hand are issued the Glock 17 and 19 and they use the m/39B cartridge, which is a +P ball round with an uncommonly thick Tombac jacket (a picture can be found here (http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg94/DKconfiguration/M39B.jpg), and a short thread discussing it can be found here (http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=5&f=20&t=92951).) That ball ammo will wear out a SIG in short order whereas Glock's warranty to the Swedish Armed Forces is 40,000 rounds for the barrel, slide, and frame. I know of G17:s that have chewed through 60,000 m/39B before needing replacement (usually the slide will end up getting a stress fracture below the ejection port.)
Just guessin'; you don't own a SIG... :sarcastic:
skullworks
07-30-13, 16:26
I don't, but I don't have any Glocks either. ;)
I don't, but I don't have any Glocks either. ;)
HA-HA! Now that's not exactly the response I expected! :)
(thanks for the laugh)...
walkin' trails
09-07-13, 21:53
I saw a study on the 9mm HSI did a while back. I don't recall all the specifics, but the Got Dot 124 was quoted a lot and performed well.
Six Feet Under,
I know it's been awhile since you posted about being shot.
What an awful ordeal - You have my deepest sympathy.
Now that you're remarkably healed up, did you get to finish the academy?
and a few lucky flukes don't mean anything either (which is all one person ever witness). You can't tell from a dead body if the guy stopped at the shot, or carried on for many seconds after being shot. For that information, about all we get is the stories told, by people who have an axe to grind. Also, eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable.
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