View Full Version : For anyone who hasn't seen the plane crash at BAF video yet...
I don't recommend watching if you're in an airport waiting on your flight. Wait till you get to where you're going.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYfo06tA9wo&feature=player_embedded
MountainRaven
04-30-13, 20:55
The witness said it best, "Holy f___."
Five_Point_Five_Six
04-30-13, 20:56
I think I just pooped a little.
I have a friend in Kabul doing some conracting work, posted the video via liveleak earlier today.
the crash somewhat reminds me of this: http://www.nytimes.com/1997/08/08/us/3-are-killed-as-cargo-plane-crashes-in-miami.html
Looks like a power-on stall to me... Angle of attack was crazy...
I must be missing something, what did I miss?
Looks like a stall to me... Angle of attack was crazy...
I must be missing something, what did I miss?
I think they had a lot of heavy cargo break the tie-downs and shift inside the aircraft, probably rushing toward the back and pushing the tail down and nose up.
Belmont31R
04-30-13, 21:22
Looks like a stall to me... Angle of attack was crazy...
I must be missing something, what did I miss?
Word is they were hauling 5 MATV's, and one or more of them broke loose or weren't secured right causing a massive CG shift. When they go to take off the loose load shifts to the rear causing the nose to go up. Basically nothing they could do. By the time it went parallel to the ground they had no airspeed and low enough not nearly enough time to get any. Basically rode a rock down. Have to wait for a full report but thats the consensus so far.
Watched it earlier, and can still see the video in my head. Never want to experience that feeling they had to have...but you can see they fought it to the end.
RIP
I think they had a lot of heavy cargo break the tie-downs and shift inside the aircraft, probably rushing toward the back and pushing the tail down and nose up.
That was my thought. The Navy lost a C-2 in the Pacific when the piece of equipment it was carrying broke loos on the cat stroke. It went straight up, winged over and right in. What a shitty way to go.
Dan
I think they had a lot of heavy cargo break the tie-downs and shift inside the aircraft, probably rushing toward the back and pushing the tail down and nose up.
That would do it...
As a student pilot I asked my instructor if we could take a couple of my friends for a ride along. He agreed. We were in a C172. Myself 130lbs and my instructor 160lbs in the front, my friend Frank at 280lbs and my friend Chris at 155lbs in the back seats. The custom was to do a soft field take off even though we were on a tarmac runway.
Full throttle, nose gear of the runway, wait for the plane to go into ground effect, get to your Vy and pull back to hold the airspeed. Gives a nice quick rush.
Dumb ass me didn't account for the extra weight in back. Good thing my instructor pushed the controls forward. Would have been a short trip.
militarymoron
04-30-13, 21:34
RIP. got a sinking feeling in my gut watching that. that sucks.
MountainRaven
04-30-13, 21:34
What can you even do if that happens? Keep the nose and power up and hope to crumple onto the tail? Or push the nose forward and try to glide it out (which they may have been attempting to do)?
What can you even do if that happens? Keep the nose and power up and hope to crumple onto the tail? Or push the nose forward and try to glide it out (which they may have been attempting to do)?
Training would tell them to work the rudder to ensure you don't spin and push the nose forward. Looks like that is what they were doing. They prevented a spin, but there was not enough airspeed or altitude to stop the stall
Belmont31R
04-30-13, 21:37
Not my photo but this is what news is saying was on board. No idea if its the same AC or when this was taken....
http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj245/BM31R/091107-F-3886B-179_zps1bec37fe.jpg
Not my photo but this is what news is saying was on board. No idea if its the same AC or when this was taken....
Yep that's an MATV alright. 27,500 pounds of armor plating.
Belmont31R
04-30-13, 21:42
Yep that's an MATV alright. 27,500 pounds of armor plating.
I read there were 5 of them...which is a bit over 125k lbs. One of them breaking loose can cause a domino effect.
gunrunner505
04-30-13, 21:46
Initially that looks a lot like cargo broke loose and resulted in a massive aft CG shift. You can see the airplane run out of airspeed at about 15 seconds in grossly nose high. The only thing that makes me think that's not the whole story is after the airplane drops over onto it's right wing the nose comes back level. Usually with a CG shift large enough to put an airplane like the 747 outside the performance/CG envelope the nose will not drop as it did when the wing quit flying because the airplane is so grossly tail heavy. These poor guys never had a chance.
BTW: I'm a commercial rated multi engine CFII and former Learjet pilot.
HOLY SHIT!!!!!!!!!! I can't even imagine being present when that happened!
RIP
gunrunner505
04-30-13, 22:37
Training would tell them to work the rudder to ensure you don't spin and push the nose forward. Looks like that is what they were doing. They prevented a spin, but there was not enough airspeed or altitude to stop the stall
There was not enough elevator authority to overcome the weight shift/nose high attitude, and when they ran out of airspeed there was no rudder authority to keep the nose straght and not drop over onto a wing. The ailerons were long since not working. These guys had every aural warning and red light in the world going on in the cockpit. Both the stick shaker and stick puller were banging full steam.
Multi engine airplanes are not required to be spun for certification and jet aircraft are never intentionally stalled.
I live under the traffic pattern of a C17 training base. I just heard a C17 fly overhead as I wrote this post. Not going to sleep well tonight.
Can't imagine the helpless feeling of the pilots.
D. Christopher
04-30-13, 22:44
Here are some pictures that show what this Boeing 747-428M(BCF) looked like for the last few years. :sad:
http://www.airliners.net/photo/National%20Airlines/Boeing%20747-428M(BCF)/1808496/L
http://www.airliners.net/photo/National%20Airlines/Boeing%20747-428M(BCF)/1794618/L
http://www.airliners.net/photo/National%20...%207-428M(BCF)/2080535/L/
Jesus man that's hard to watch. RIP brothers.
gunrunner505
04-30-13, 22:48
What can you even do if that happens? Keep the nose and power up and hope to crumple onto the tail? Or push the nose forward and try to glide it out (which they may have been attempting to do)?
In a piston engine airplane if you find yourself in a nose high power on stall you would use the rudder to keep the wings level, you step on the high wing. You then apply swift forward pressure on the elevators to break the stall. The idea is to get your main wing flying again with a minimum loss of altitude. In a light airplane like a 172 or piston twin you can actually hear the turbulant air banging on the airplane and feel the buffet.
In a jet aircraft you can nether hear nor feel the turbulant air. They are never intentionally stalled. They have systems in the airplane to avoid aerodynamic stalls completely. There are angle of attack indicators on the nose connected to a visual display in the cockpit showing you your angle of attack and how close you are to a stall. There is an aural warning horn and a stick shaker hooked up to the yoke that is progressive, as you get closer to a stall it shakes the column harder. Finally there is a stick puller that will automatically push the nose down to reduce the AOA if there is no input from the pilot. This thing is strong enough to pull the yoke right out of your hand.
This one shows the peak of the stall, the AC just seems to rotate on it's axis. What a horrible feeling. http://youtu.be/uIjO0sKBDDw
Larry Vickers
05-01-13, 07:00
I almost didn't want to watch that video - I knew what was coming - and I was right
I have been in 3 helo crashes in my military career and I can't watch that without having flashbacks
My deepest sympathies go out to the families and loved ones of those lost - I will have them in my thoughts and prayers
Man that was tough to watch. Godspeed.
That made my stomach sick. I hate flying, doesnt matter if its 1 hour or 8 hours. More so, I hate when some stranger tells me the old saying about the probability of being in a car wreck vs. a plane crash. I consider punching them but instead ask them if they have considered the probability of surviving each event? My condolences go out to the family, what a horrible few minutes of life on earth.
Dear God, that was awful to watch. RIP
montanadave
05-01-13, 08:12
A toolpusher told me a story years ago about needing a new bit sub "right now" and locating one in a boneyard across state. He hired a pilot to fly it out to the rig and land in the adjacent field. He was waiting for the plane when the pilot made an inspection pass over the field and then pulled up steeply and started to bank around to land. Suddenly, the plane almost flipped upside down. Amazingly, the pilot was able to recover and get on the ground in one piece. The bit sub (probably weighing several hundred pounds) had not been properly tied down and had rolled during the turn.
The pusher, a rather crusty sort, walked past the pilot, who was on his knees puking, to unload the sub and muttered, "Guess you'll tie that ****er down a little tighter next time, eh, ace?"
Load shifts are double ungood.
My condolences to the families of those who lost their lives. That is a horrifying accident.
RIP Crew....
From what I remember from pictures, there are mountains at the end of the runway which makes for a strong climbout. That and a CG shift and high altitude....hard to watch....
Just read on Fox that they have released their names. I hadn't even heard of this until I saw this thread. Two of them were 51 and the other 5 were in their 30's. Tragic and truely horrible.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/05/01/company-releases-names-7-americans-killed-in-afghanistan-plane-crash/?test=latestnews
That was tough to watch. I'm amazed that the pilot even got it level again.
I have been in 3 helo crashes in my military career...
Note to self: do not fly with Vickers...
Magic_Salad0892
05-01-13, 12:26
I have been in 3 helo crashes in my military career
Dude, you're lucky that you survived ONE. I can't even imagine three.
That video was hard to watch for sure. RIP.
This one shows the peak of the stall, the AC just seems to rotate on it's axis. What a horrible feeling. http://youtu.be/uIjO0sKBDDw
Ahhh... that makes more sense. The first footage I saw yesterday started when the plane was already banking really hard... I was like WTF did they do to get there?
Bummer.
HackerF15E
05-01-13, 22:08
In a jet aircraft you can nether hear nor feel the turbulant air. They are never intentionally stalled.
You mean that commuter category and transport category jets are never stalled.
Military pointy-nosed jets are stalled regularly, and quite intentionally both for training and tactical applications.
In addition, aerodynamic buffett is quite noticeable at many different angles of attack, both pre and post critical AOA. In fact, in many fighter and trainer jets, the type and intensity of buffett, and even relative sounds of the airflow, are great indicators of energy.
gunrunner505
05-01-13, 22:10
You mean that commuter category and transport category jets are never stalled.
Military pointy-nosed jets are stalled regularly, and quite intentionally both for training and tactical applications.
In addition, aerodynamic buffett is quite noticeable at many different angles of attack, both pre and post critical AOA. In fact, in many fighter and trainer jets, the type and intensity of buffett, and even relative sounds of the airflow, are great indicators of energy.
You're going to compare fighter jets to FAA certificated large transport category aircraft like the one that crashed?
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HackerF15E
05-01-13, 22:14
You're going to compare fighter jets to FAA certificated large transport category aircraft like the one that crashed?
You are the one who used the term "jets"...and right after comparing the performance of GA piston aircraft, so I was clarifying. "Jets" covers a wide range of aircraft types, not all of which your comments accurately apply to.
MountainRaven
05-01-13, 22:18
Dude, you're lucky that you survived ONE. I can't even imagine three.
That video was hard to watch for sure. RIP.
Ever see the part in Zero Dark Thirty where the SEAL in one of the helos asks who has ever been in a helicopter crash before? And everyone on board lifts a hand? Methinks that helicopter crashes are probably not horribly uncommon and it's simply a matter of how many hours you put in on a helicopter, particularly a military helicopter, to determine how many crashes you're likely to be in. And I would guess that the number of hours per crash drops when you're doing some of the crazy things that SOF do.
You mean that commuter category and transport category jets are never stalled.
Military pointy-nosed jets are stalled regularly, and quite intentionally both for training and tactical applications.
In addition, aerodynamic buffett is quite noticeable at many different angles of attack, both pre and post critical AOA. In fact, in many fighter and trainer jets, the type and intensity of buffett, and even relative sounds of the airflow, are great indicators of energy.
Just out of curiosity, are you a pilot or a WSO on a Beagle?
Magic_Salad0892
05-01-13, 22:22
Ever see the part in Zero Dark Thirty where the SEAL in one of the helos asks who has ever been in a helicopter crash before? And everyone on board lifts a hand? Methinks that helicopter crashes are probably not horribly uncommon and it's simply a matter of how many hours you put in on a helicopter, particularly a military helicopter, to determine how many crashes you're likely to be in. And I would guess that the number of hours per crash drops when you're doing some of the crazy things that SOF do.
Yeah, I guess you're right.
And yeah, I remember that. I didn't think about it like that.
HackerF15E
05-01-13, 22:24
Just out of curiosity, are you a pilot or a WSO on a Beagle?
Pilot, two tours and 1500 hours in it.
You mean that commuter category and transport category jets are never stalled.
Military pointy-nosed jets are stalled regularly, and quite intentionally both for training and tactical applications.
In addition, aerodynamic buffett is quite noticeable at many different angles of attack, both pre and post critical AOA. In fact, in many fighter and trainer jets, the type and intensity of buffett, and even relative sounds of the airflow, are great indicators of energy.
The amount of pre-stall indicators depends a lot on the design of the wing. The aspect ratio, the dihedral of the wings, the cross sectional surface area, the angle of swept back all influence how a wing stalls. A swept back wing with a moderate aspect ratio will stall at the tips and progress inwards towards the wing root near the fuselage and you will loose aileron control first. Low aspect wings with a moderate swept back profile will typically stall at the wing root. Skeptical wings (spitfire) will stall all along the trailing edge and won't show many pre stall indicators.
Cessna 172's have a designed inboard stall characteristics. If you look at the airfoil profile, the inside of the wing has a 1.3 degree (I think) increase in AOA so it is a designed inboard stall with a low aspect ratio and a slightly negative dihedral on the ailerons.
That's what I can remember from aerodynamics anyways...
gunrunner505
05-01-13, 22:38
You are the one who used the term "jets"...and right after comparing the performance of GA piston aircraft, so I was clarifying. "Jets" covers a wide range of aircraft types, not all of which your comments accurately apply to.
Since this discussion is about a civilian cargo 747 and not military operated aircraft they are accurate to the aircraft type and operation in discussion. Civilian transport category aircraft.
While the military and government operate many of the same airframes as the civil sector, United and the Air Force do not fly them even remotely the same way. Example, once an engine part has been used by the government in one of their engines no civil operator will touch that part even though it's the same part. Because they are operated totally different.
I defer to you for all things fighter jet.
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HackerF15E
05-01-13, 22:55
I defer to you for all things fighter jet.
Well, I'm also a CFII/MEI, and SE/ME ATP as well, with a bunch of PIC in a commuter category turboprop, but the point here isn't to schwanz-measure, right?
Again, your initial comparison was between single-engine GA aircraft (regarding rudder effectiveness with propwash over the vertical) and a broadly-described "jets" category, so I don't see the inclusion of the stall and post-stall behavior of other types of "jets" as not being germane to the conversation.
You made blanket statements about "jets", which includes a lot more aircraft types than simply transport category multiengine jets, and I was adding clarifying information to that, that's all.
SeriousStudent
05-01-13, 22:56
My thoughts and prayers are with the fallen, and their families.
I am sure I was not the only person saying over and over "Oh please dear God, pull up." :(
HackerF15E
05-01-13, 23:02
A swept back wing with a moderate aspect ratio will stall at the tips and progress inwards towards the wing root near the fuselage and you will loose aileron control first.
Just as an interesting aside, the two swept wing jets that I have the most time in can both be flown quite precisely post-stall despite the "loss of aileron effectiveness". Both jets can be flown with the AOA-meters pegged, maintaining altitude on just the flat-plate newtonian force on the bottom of the wing/fuselage combined with the engine thrust in 'burner. In fact, maneuvers can be flown maintaining airspeed, altitude, and heading to Commercial PTS standards in this regime...despite the wings being fully "stalled".
gunrunner505
05-01-13, 23:16
Just as an interesting aside, the two swept wing jets that I have the most time in can both be flown quite precisely post-stall despite the "loss of aileron effectiveness". Both jets can be flown with the AOA-meters pegged, maintaining altitude on just the flat-plate newtonian force on the bottom of the wing/fuselage combined with the engine thrust in 'burner. In fact, maneuvers can be flown maintaining airspeed, altitude, and heading to Commercial PTS standards in this regime...despite the wings being fully "stalled".
Absolutely no one is measuring dicks. My point to you is that civil aircraft and cool as shit fighter jets with afterburners are not a close comparison. What you can do with an F15 post stall in AB and what can be done with an 800,000 pound 747, or even an 18,000 pound Learjet or 30,000 pound turboprop, post stall don't quite measure up. As I have no military experience I cannot reference the same core of expreience as you can, all I know about F15s is they are fast, agile and cool, beyond that you got me. In the civil arena, turbine and transport category aircraft, like the 747, are not intentially stalled.
domestique
05-02-13, 03:39
Prayers go out the lost and their families.
Thank goodnes it was just a 747 carrying cargo and crew. I thought it was a commercial 747 loaded with full of passengers.
That was rough. I can't imagine how the crew felt in that moment. :(
HackerF15E
05-02-13, 06:17
In the civil arena, turbine and transport category aircraft, like the 747, are not intentially stalled.
Agreed, that was my only point.
Eurodriver
05-02-13, 08:55
Absolutely no one is measuring dicks. My point to you is that civil aircraft and cool as shit fighter jets with afterburners are not a close comparison. What you can do with an F15 post stall in AB and what can be done with an 800,000 pound 747, or even an 18,000 pound Learjet or 30,000 pound turboprop, post stall don't quite measure up. As I have no military experience I cannot reference the same core of expreience as you can, all I know about F15s is they are fast, agile and cool, beyond that you got me. In the civil arena, turbine and transport category aircraft, like the 747, are not intentially stalled.
This made me laugh, but maybe because I was looking for anything to get over that gut wrenching feeling after watching the video.
Just as an interesting aside, the two swept wing jets that I have the most time in can both be flown quite precisely post-stall despite the "loss of aileron effectiveness". Both jets can be flown with the AOA-meters pegged, maintaining altitude on just the flat-plate newtonian force on the bottom of the wing/fuselage combined with the engine thrust in 'burner. In fact, maneuvers can be flown maintaining airspeed, altitude, and heading to Commercial PTS standards in this regime...despite the wings being fully "stalled".
I believe it. With enough thrust, you can make an airplane hover like a helo. Anyways, my aerodynamics is rusty as all hell so take my information with a grain of salt. Also, slowest I ever got a 152 to fly: 4 kts GS :D
You are the one who used the term "jets"...and right after comparing the performance of GA piston aircraft, so I was clarifying. "Jets" covers a wide range of aircraft types, not all of which your comments accurately apply to.
I think the reason that the jets vs GA piston type aircraft came up is that someone else with GA piston type aircraft had remarked on what he would do in this case, or something of the sort. "gunrunner505" was not trying to compare them "out of thin air."
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gunrunner505
05-02-13, 14:44
Meh, chalk it up to miscommunication. I'm past it and hope Hacker is as well.
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RogerinTPA
05-02-13, 15:29
I think they had a lot of heavy cargo break the tie-downs and shift inside the aircraft, probably rushing toward the back and pushing the tail down and nose up.
Bingo. That stall was unrecoverable. With a major CG weight shifts aft like that, your done. I bet the pilots broke their arms trying to lower that nose prior to the stall. Even if they were capable of lowering the nose, you have mountains on 3 sides of that direction of takeoff. A similar crash occurred in MIA years ago with a stretched DC-8. A few of the bear claw clamps securing the pallets and shipping containers broke, and all the contents went aft, right after rotation. It crashed right outside the fence.
twistedcomrade
05-02-13, 21:19
Poor guys, RIP.
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